what happened to psai?

[deleted171991]

His comments about DOs being inferior caused several members to feel marginalized.

No trigger warnings? They must have felt really unsafe.

The right answer to his comment would have been: prove it! Just because an idea is politically incorrect or unpleasant, it's not necessarily false. What's next, Newspeak?

Btw, I would be as concerned if someone were removed for badmouthing IMGs, immigrants, foreigners, men, and all the other groups I belong to. Seriously, people, stop coddling the youth. Nowhere else in the world does anybody raise mimosas and call them children.

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[Planktonmd]

His removal has nothing to do with “polarizing opinions“. It has to do with degrading colleagues.

We have plenty of users who may disagree on social, political, and professional ideas. He was removed because double digit warnings, post hold and probation did nothing to curb his violations of our terms of service. His comments about DOs being inferior caused several members to feel marginalized.

In my humble opinion when we treat a certain category of people as a protected minority that's actually an admission they are vulnerable and that triggers more discrimination.
So saying that criticizing DOs is not allowed is not necessarily a good thing.

 

[DM27]

I may have a somewhat unpopular opinion, but plenty of bad things are said on here about surgeons and CRNAs and AAs; since I work with them I consider them my colleagues as well. I don’t see much of a problem with someone on an anonymous and electronic forum who has opinions that may make others sad. If someone’s perception of their clinical ability is influenced by someone spouting generalizations on an online forum then there are some larger problems.

People also post quite frequently in the pre-residency topics about the quality of AOA vs. ACGME residencies and the type of job prospects afterward and I don’t see much censorship of this topic which people seem to have a fairly established quality perception of.

 

[Winged Scapula]

In my humble opinion when we treat a certain category of people as a protected minority that's actually an admission they are vulnerable and that triggers more discrimination.
So saying that criticizing DOs is not allowed is not necessarily a good thing.

Fair enough; I understand where you’re coming from.

But our job as moderator staff is to protect those users who feel vulnerable and discriminated against. One of the first tenets of our terms of service and expected behavior is about treating others nicely.

 

[Winged Scapula]

No trigger warnings? They must have felt really unsafe.

The right answer to his comment would have been: prove it! Just because an idea is politically incorrect or unpleasant, it's not necessarily false. What's next, Newspeak?

Btw, I would be as concerned if someone were removed for badmouthing IMGs, immigrants, foreigners, men, and all the other groups I belong to. Seriously, people, stop coddling the youth. Nowhere else in the world does anybody raise mimosas and call them children.

I’ll say it one more time and then I’ll stop because it appears there’s a lot of confusion or willful ignorance here.

He was not removed for this post in isolation. He had more than a dozen warnings, was placed on probation and Post hold and yet refused to align his post with our terms of service. Stop making it about a single post.

When someone comes back after being on post hold and start alienating other members of our community we will step in even if they’re a long-term member. We are no longer going to tolerate or issue multiple toothless warnings.

 

[Noyac]

Fair enough; I understand where you’re coming from.

But our job as moderator staff is to protect those users who feel vulnerable and discriminated against. One of the first tenets of our terms of service and expected behavior is about treating others nicely.

Winged, you and I go way way back. I have always appreciated your style. This is the first thing you have ever said that made me take a step back. I don’t understand why it is your job to “protect” vulnerable users. That’s all. I do think it is your job to police behavior that is outside of the TOS. Everyone has vulnerablities. Yes, even I have one or two. However, I don’t expect anyone to protect me except myself. That would make me even more vulnerable if I depended on others.

Like I said, you rock. This is just me thinking out loud here.

Btw, I agree with the decision you all made. While Psai was an intelligent contributor to this forum, he had a way of contributing that made people defensive. That bothered me and I even called him on it. In the end he apologized (not publicly which would have been better) and I forgot about it. I probably have thicker skin than most I guess.

 

[IlDestriero]

This reminds me of the male UVA med student who crashed an AMWA meeting on microagressions to challenge and call out the speaker. He subsequently got expelled. Why?? When I was a medical student, I didn’t attend any AMWA meetings because I’m a dude.

I wonder how Thomas Jefferson would have felt about one of his students being expelled for voicing a dissenting opinion in a public forum in at his University? Unless he came in calling everyone a bunch of spineless c*#£$, I’m not sure it, alone, actually warrants an expulsion.
(To be clear, I don’t really care about Psai’s banning. If he couldn’t follow Lee’s rules, that’s what he gets. His forum, his rules.)

 

[deleted171991]

In my humble opinion when we treat a certain category of people as a protected minority that's actually an admission they are vulnerable and that triggers more discrimination.
So saying that criticizing DOs is not allowed is not necessarily a good thing.

Criticizing almost anything is not allowed. Listen to this Newspeak:

"If you disagree with someone, be courteous and stay positive in your response. Negativity is harmful to our community. Repeated negative posts will result in removal from our community."

Pink eyeglasses, nice rose-colored eyepieces, what a beautiful world...

Another gem: "We believe in the team approach to medical care." I guess most MD-only anesthesiologist groups are out. So are plastic surgeons.

These are from the SDN TOS, aka The Bible. If you don't accept it, The Church of SDN will excommunicate you.

"BY ACCESSING OR USING SDN’S SITE, YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THESE TOS. IF YOU DO NOT WISH TO BE BOUND BY THE TOS, YOU MAY NOT ACCESS OR USE THE STUDENT DOCTOR NETWORK’S SITE." Not even read it?

And I had been believing I was on the site of a friendly non-profit...

 

[vector2]

Good lord, y'all. I'm as much for free speech as anyone but I'm with winged here. Just because one has freedom of speech doesn't mean one absolutely 100% has to be a total belligerent d*ickwad about it or otherwise clutch your pearls and claim liberty is now at risk because someone asked you repeatedly to stop being a d*ickwad. If psai had made his argument about DOs with slightly more tact than a bullying 4th grader, he'd still be here.

 

[Noyac]

Btw, there is an “ ignore” button.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Winged, you and I go way way back. I have always appreciated your style. This is the first thing you have ever said that made me take a step back. I don’t understand why it is your job to “protect” vulnerable users. That’s all. I do think it is your job to police behavior that is outside of the TOS. Everyone has vulnerablities. Yes, even I have one or two. However, I don’t expect anyone to protect me except myself. That would make me even more vulnerable if I depended on others.

Like I said, you rock. This is just me thinking out loud here.

Btw, I agree with the decision you all made. While Psai was an intelligent contributor to this forum, he had a way of contributing that made people defensive. That bothered me and I even called him on it. In the end he apologized (not publicly which would have been better) and I forgot about it. I probably have thicker skin than most I guess.

Thanks.

I see the “protection” as upholding the terms of service.

That being said society has changed and whether you want to call it “snowflakes” or not, sensibilities are different than when you and I were young pups.

I certainly have had inner eye rolls over some of the things that are reported. But one of the problems we are facing is a toxic reputation amongst premeds, med school advisers etc. Evaluating that reputation has led us to see that many users stay away because of these more insensitive or rougher comments made by our users. While we can’t cater to everyone and we certainly can’t protect everyone’s feelings it is part of our job as I see it to move us toward a kinder atmosphere.

 

[dchz]

But our job as moderator staff is to protect those users who feel vulnerable and discriminated against. One of the first tenets of our terms of service and expected behavior is about treating others nicely.

In my humble opinion when we treat a certain category of people as a protected minority that's actually an admission they are vulnerable and that triggers more discrimination.
So saying that criticizing DOs is not allowed is not necessarily a good thing.

I don’t understand why it is your job to “protect” vulnerable users.

I can't say it better than @Planktonmd and @Noyac ...

The right answer to his comment would have been: prove it! Just because an idea is politically incorrect or unpleasant, it's not necessarily false. What's next, Newspeak?

Btw, I would be as concerned if someone were removed for badmouthing IMGs, immigrants, foreigners, men, and all the other groups I belong to. Seriously, people, stop coddling the youth. Nowhere else in the world does anybody raise mimosas and call them children.

I feel like the FFP way would have been way more constructive.

What if you just let @Psai back in the anes forums only. While some feel like they have to go hide in a hole every time @Psai spits out something witty, I personally think his dissenting opinions are constructive to my growth as a physician. No matter how hard he tries on a internet message board, he's nothing compared to a disgruntled surgeon screaming at you.

I would be willing to openly debate him on the merits of DO in a public thread. This would give the people a inside look at what really goes on in Psai's head too.

P.S.
Unlikely opinion, but i've been in @Psai 's shoes. A part of me really thinks he's not that elitist and really does the trolling to get a raise out of people. I just don't see how someone who is intelligent enough contribute the way he does just can't see how DOs are equals....

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I wonder how Thomas Jefferson would have felt about one of his students being expelled for voicing a dissenting opinion in a public forum in at his University? Unless he came in calling everyone a bunch of spineless c*#£$, I’m not sure it, alone, actually warrants an expulsion.

And that's because that incident alone didn't get him expelled.

The UVA student in question had already been in trouble previously (he recorded his previous disciplinary meetings and posted them online).

He went to a voluntary lunch lecture and made an ass of himself (also recorded and posted).

Had a meeting with administration about it and was an ass there too (this recording is also available).

 

[IlDestriero]

And that's because that incident alone didn't get him expelled.

The UVA student in question had already been in trouble previously (he recorded his previous disciplinary meetings and posted them online).

He went to a voluntary lunch lecture and made an ass of himself (also recorded and posted).

Had a meeting with administration about it and was an ass there too (this recording is also available).

Interesting. He sounds like he has mental problems. Is he recording his new life as a Walmart greeter?

 

[anbuitachi]

His removal has nothing to do with “polarizing opinions“. It has to do with degrading colleagues.

We have plenty of users who may disagree on social, political, and professional ideas. He was removed because double digit warnings, post hold and probation did nothing to curb his violations of our terms of service. His comments about DOs being inferior caused several members to feel marginalized.

Woah last time I saw winged scapula on sdn w when I was a med student. But wow some people get offended so easily!

 

[deleted171991]

Thanks.

I see the “protection” as upholding the terms of service.

That being said society has changed and whether you want to call it “snowflakes” or not, sensibilities are different than when you and I were young pups.

I certainly have had inner eye rolls over some of the things that are reported. But one of the problems we are facing is a toxic reputation amongst premeds, med school advisers etc. Evaluating that reputation has led us to see that many users stay away because of these more insensitive or rougher comments made by our users. While we can’t cater to everyone and we certainly can’t protect everyone’s feelings it is part of our job as I see it to move us toward a kinder atmosphere.

I understand and don't envy your conundrum.

But you'll also have to figure out whether you want SDN to be a kindergarten or a university, an echo chamber or an agora. Interesting minds are usually non-conformist, and posting here is (practically) a waste of time for many "adults". If that time and contribution does not get any respect (or so it seems), there are much better ways to waste one's time. We are not being paid to have to play by the trainees' rules; that's what we do at work, not in our spare time.

So, if those "youngsters" cannot accept the compromise that the price of dealing with "elders" (and other people in general, online) is that you have to put up with "adult" stuff (i.e. what's considered normal in the non-US adult world), I say good riddance. Unless this "non-profit" is more obsessed with quantity, and not quality, and there are much deeper personal and professional agendas at work than just helping students become doctors.

I am not arguing against being polite and civilized in conversation, just against political correctness and whining. I am also arguing for respecting people's contributions. It may be your palace, but, without our many bricks, it would still be a hut. When any frequent poster just disappears without explanation (Psai was not the first one, by far), others may feel threatened and may wonder why are they wasting their time here.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I understand and don't envy your conundrum.

But you'll also have to figure out whether you want SDN to be a kindergarten or a university, an echo chamber or an agora. Interesting minds are usually non-conformist, and posting here is (practically) a waste of time for many "adults". If that time and contribution does not get any respect (or so it seems), there are much better ways to waste one's time. We are not being paid to have to play by the trainees' rules; that's what we do at work, not in our spare time.

So, if those "youngsters" cannot accept the compromise that the price of dealing with "elders" (and other people in general, online) is that you have to put up with "adult" stuff (i.e. what's considered normal in the non-US adult world), I say good riddance. Unless this "non-profit" is more obsessed with quantity, and not quality, and there are much deeper personal and professional agendas at work than just helping students become doctors.

I am not arguing against being polite and civilized in conversation, just against political correctness and whining. I am also arguing for respecting people's contributions. It may be your palace, but, without our many bricks, it would still be a hut. When any frequent poster just disappears without explanation (Psai was not the first one, by far), others may feel threatened and may wonder why are they wasting their time here.

I think a large part of it is where you show your ass. I don't know if this is purposeful or not, but in the specialty areas you see much less mod action when people are very blunt or even outright rude/insulting/whatever. But the pre-med and med student areas are different for better or worse. You can't say the same things in the same way there that you do here. The real world is similar for most of us. I interact with medical students very differently than I do other doctors.

 

[deleted171991]

I think a large part of it is where you show your ass. I don't know if this is purposeful or not, but in the specialty areas you see much less mod action when people are very blunt or even outright rude/insulting/whatever. But the pre-med and med student areas are different for better or worse. You can't say the same things in the same way there that you do here. The real world is similar for most of us. I interact with medical students very differently than I do other doctors.

Me, too. That's why SDN readers can get much better advice from me than my real-world trainees.

But that's an eye-opening perspective, thank you. And I can see how that compromise could work. Although I have been "moderated" unpleasantly even in specialty areas, hence I rarely post outside of Anesthesiology anymore.

 

[Osminog]

The only way to effectively quash ill-formed opinions and lousy arguments is to allow for open discussion. When you go out of your way to ban people who have unpopular opinions, you only serve to bolster those unpopular opinions.

Since his ban, do we think Psai has changed his mind about DOs? Are Psai's followers and fans now thinking, "Oh, Psai got banned... I guess his opinion about DOs wasn't valid after all"? Are the hundreds of physicians and medical students on SDN who secretly agree with Psai about the inferiority of DOs now changing their opinions? No one's opinion has been changed, and if anything, negative opinions of DOs have been reinforced because now you've created another martyr for the anti-DO cause.

I understand the concern about a possible trolling epidemic on this forum, but banning isn't the answer. The most effective way to prevent a toxic culture on here is to encourage long-time users to be proactive and say, "Hey, you're spreading controversial opinions. Let's see your arguments so that we can have a serious, open-minded discussion about this."

 

[Lawpy]

I think a large part of it is where you show your ass. I don't know if this is purposeful or not, but in the specialty areas you see much less mod action when people are very blunt or even outright rude/insulting/whatever. But the pre-med and med student areas are different for better or worse. You can't say the same things in the same way there that you do here. The real world is similar for most of us. I interact with medical students very differently than I do other doctors.

This makes sense but I also like to think that attendings/residents are just generally more mature and civilized than premeds/med students. And it's not just on SDN where this is true. I see this regularly across hospitals and schools, which is why i personally enjoy spending time interacting with residents/attendings and don't mind their humor that would otherwise offend my peers. I can also more freely be open in my thoughts and questions to them without feeling beaten down for accidentally upsetting someone. I also really appreciate constructive feedback from them even if they're delivered in a harsh way because i realize i messed up.

Sure there are some residents and attendings who are complete sociopaths but they are rare. I just think that the specialty forums by their nature have the maturity, civility and professionalism from their experience that premeds/med students/sheltered peers lack.

And as such, it's why the specialty forums are a great place to hang out and learn. Can't really say the same for preallo/allo.

 

[Noyac]

Med studs are soft. They haven’t had the regular beatings that begin in residency and continue throughout your career. They will come around.

Remember the saying, the beatings will continue until moral improves. I think that was probably first quoted at a training hospital. I don’t know.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Me, too. That's why SDN readers can get much better advice from me than my real-world trainees.

But that's an eye-opening perspective, thank you. And I can see how that compromise could work. Although I have been "moderated" unpleasantly even in specialty areas, hence I rarely post outside of Anesthesiology anymore.

Heh, I bet I can recall at least one of the non-anesthesia threads where that happened. You can still get smacked down anywhere I just think it takes more here.

 

[Lawpy]

The only way to effectively quash ill-formed opinions and lousy arguments is to allow for open discussion. When you go out of your way to ban people who have unpopular opinions, you only serve to bolster those unpopular opinions.

Since his ban, do we think Psai has changed his mind about DOs? Are Psai's followers and fans now thinking, "Oh, Psai got banned... I guess his opinion about DOs wasn't valid after all"? Are the hundreds of physicians and medical students on SDN who secretly agree with Psai about the inferiority of DOs now changing their opinions? No one's opinion has been changed, and if anything, negative opinions of DOs have been reinforced because now you've created another martyr for the anti-DO cause.

I understand the concern about a possible trolling epidemic on this forum, but banning isn't the answer. The most effective way to prevent a toxic culture on here is to encourage long-time users to be proactive and say, "Hey, you're spreading controversial opinions. Let's see your arguments so that we can have a serious, open-minded discussion about this."

I just want to point out that it is difficult to get banned from the site as it takes a series of warnings, infractions, probations, post holds etc (all of which determined by the staff collectively). Your suggestions were something Psai already knew about and still decided to violate the TOS by insulting people and voluntarily revising mod edits to continue the offending behavior. This behavior directly violates the TOS and as such, the ban was warranted given his previous history.

It's not hard to engage in respectful discussions. It's also not hard to follow the TOS that everyone agreed to follow when joining the forums. You can have opinions without insulting and degrading others.

 

[Neopolymath]

The only way to effectively quash ill-formed opinions and lousy arguments is to allow for open discussion. When you go out of your way to ban people who have unpopular opinions, you only serve to bolster those unpopular opinions.

Since his ban, do we think Psai has changed his mind about DOs? Are Psai's followers and fans now thinking, "Oh, Psai got banned... I guess his opinion about DOs wasn't valid after all"? Are the hundreds of physicians and medical students on SDN who secretly agree with Psai about the inferiority of DOs now changing their opinions? No one's opinion has been changed, and if anything, negative opinions of DOs have been reinforced because now you've created another martyr for the anti-DO cause.

I understand the concern about a possible trolling epidemic on this forum, but banning isn't the answer. The most effective way to prevent a toxic culture on here is to encourage long-time users to be proactive and say, "Hey, you're spreading controversial opinions. Let's see your arguments so that we can have a serious, open-minded discussion about this."

The strawman going on in this thread is that Psai simply believes that DOs are inferior/poorly trained or whatever. That is not true. Psai believes that DO's should not be viewed as physicians or allowed to practice medicine. Psai thinks that DOs do not go to legitimate medical school and sit through the same classes. Anyone in this thread can whine about "free speech" (which is hilarious because free speech has nothing to do with a private online forum...) but don't pretend like the issue is that he is a prestige ***** who got a little angsty. He does not think DOs are better than midlevels and chiropractors. There is a difference there. Do I think he should be banned for what he said? Nah, whatever.

Also, yes, some of my peers are Charmin toilet paper soft, but so what? I could write a lengthy screed about the waste of breathe a lot of these boomers are in this country too.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

The only way to effectively quash ill-formed opinions and lousy arguments is to allow for open discussion. When you go out of your way to ban people who have unpopular opinions, you only serve to bolster those unpopular opinions.

Since his ban, do we think Psai has changed his mind about DOs? Are Psai's followers and fans now thinking, "Oh, Psai got banned... I guess his opinion about DOs wasn't valid after all"? Are the hundreds of physicians and medical students on SDN who secretly agree with Psai about the inferiority of DOs now changing their opinions? No one's opinion has been changed, and if anything, negative opinions of DOs have been reinforced because now you've created another martyr for the anti-DO cause.

I understand the concern about a possible trolling epidemic on this forum, but banning isn't the answer. The most effective way to prevent a toxic culture on here is to encourage long-time users to be proactive and say, "Hey, you're spreading controversial opinions. Let's see your arguments so that we can have a serious, open-minded discussion about this."

There is a difference between people coming in with ill-informed opinions and people who are set in their ways. If after all his time here Psai was still anti-DO do you honestly think he was going to change based on what anyone here said to him?

Beyond that, do you honestly think anyone looks at this ban and seriously says to themselves "he must be right otherwise they wouldn't have banned him"?

 

[deleted171991]

There is a difference between people coming in with ill-informed opinions and people who are set in their ways. If after all his time here Psai was still anti-DO do you honestly think he was going to change based on what anyone here said to him?

Beyond that, do you honestly think anyone looks at this ban and seriously says to themselves "he must be right otherwise they wouldn't have banned him"?

Everybody's set in some of their ways, the older the more set. We just need to accept that nobody's perfect. Some of our members have some scary beliefs (that we do know and remember), and we still manage to have decent conversations on this section.

And while some people are JUST trolls, for others trolling is just a phase of growing up.

 

[deleted171991]

Med studs are soft. They haven’t had the regular beatings that begin in residency and continue throughout your career. They will come around.

Remember the saying, the beatings will continue until moral improves. I think that was probably first quoted at a training hospital. I don’t know.

There are no more "beatings". I have seen some really dangerous and/or arrogant residents who don't get more than a slap on the wrist, because it's just not worth the paperwork and the risk of becoming collateral damage. The coddling on the forum also happens in real life. It's downright expected.

A well-known example from Yale: The Perils of Writing a Provocative Email at Yale - The Atlantic

 

[deleted547339]

I’m shocked there is this much discussion. Psai was repeatedly a d-bag. He was repeatedly warned to not be a d-bag. He didn’t listen. He got told he can’t come back. Seems pretty simple.

This isn’t a public park where you can argue for your first amendment rights, this is a private company running an Internet forum. If someone wants to come into my house and talk crap, I can ask them to leave because it’s my house. If the TOS said you can’t use the letter z and you keep talking about zoos, you’d get banned. The rules are simple. It’s not like he made one inflammatory comment and someone overreacted - it seems pretty clear he just couldn’t play well with others. I’ve been around a couple years and had plenty of disagreements with people on here - I’ve never been put on probation or gotten messaged by a mod even a couple times when I figured I would. To do it repeatedly is, well, impressive dedication to douchebaggery. It’s not like it’s thats hard, people.

 

[deleted547339]

The strawman going on in this thread is that Psai simply believes that DOs are inferior/poorly trained or whatever. That is not true. Psai believes that DO's should not be viewed as physicians or allowed to practice medicine. Psai thinks that DOs do not go to legitimate medical school and sit through the same classes. Anyone in this thread can whine about "free speech" (which is hilarious because free speech has nothing to do with a private online forum...) but don't pretend like the issue is that he is a prestige ***** who got a little angsty. He does not think DOs are better than midlevels and chiropractors. There is a difference there. Do I think he should be banned for what he said? Nah, whatever.

Also, yes, some of my peers are Charmin toilet paper soft, but so what? I could write a lengthy screed about the waste of breathe a lot of these boomers are in this country too.

Hey now, charming makes an extra strong line - and it’s all that touches these cheeks, lol.

 

[DM27]

There is a clear best toilet paper and you failed to pick it. Cottonelle Ultra GentleCare. You could clean up an oil spill with these.

 

[deleted171991]

I’m shocked there is this much discussion. Psai was repeatedly a d-bag. He was repeatedly warned to not be a d-bag. He didn’t listen. He got told he can’t come back. Seems pretty simple.

This isn’t a public park where you can argue for your first amendment rights, this is a private company running an Internet forum. If someone wants to come into my house and talk crap, I can ask them to leave because it’s my house. If the TOS said you can’t use the letter z and you keep talking about zoos, you’d get banned. The rules are simple. It’s not like he made one inflammatory comment and someone overreacted - it seems pretty clear he just couldn’t play well with others. I’ve been around a couple years and had plenty of disagreements with people on here - I’ve never been put on probation or gotten messaged by a mod even a couple times when I figured I would. To do it repeatedly is, well, impressive dedication to douchebaggery. It’s not like it’s thats hard, people.

1. I was not a fan, but one doesn't get to 23,000+ likes by being just a douche. I can see how one can post a ton in the "chatty" forums and threads, but it still seems a lot.

2. Learn how to use the Ignore button.

 

[dhb]

I’m shocked there is this much discussion. Psai was repeatedly a d-bag

Not on the anesthesiology forum where most users don't go to the pre-med area. Probably why the perception from here is skewed.

Anyway if he couldn't tow the line after multiple warnings that's on him. A lot of people have been on here for 10+ years without a warning...

 

[dhb]

23,000+ likes

Lotta DO haters on SDN!

 

[anbuitachi]

1. I was not a fan, but one doesn't get to 23,000+ likes by being just a douche. I can see how one can post a ton in the "chatty" forums and threads, but it still seems a lot.

2. Learn how to use the Ignore button.

wait he has 23000 likes?!!?

bring the man back and give him an award. thats crazy

 

[jw3600]

Winged has a point. SDN has a unmistakable rep among most pre meds and med students as being hostile and elitist. Psai was literally the epitome of that notion and was very vocal about it. In the end SDN needs hits and views to bring in advertisers and keep the damn servers running. I am a simple man. I can accept this.

I really feel strongly that banning people other than trolls and scammers is a bad policy but I do understand real world logistics get in the way of the ideal sometimes.

 

[deleted171991]

Winged has a point. SDN has a unmistakable rep among most pre meds and med students as being hostile and elitist. Psai was literally the epitome of that notion and was very vocal about it. In the end SDN needs hits and views to bring in advertisers and keep the damn servers running. I am a simple man. I can accept this.

I really feel strongly that banning people other than trolls and scammers is a bad policy but I do understand real world logistics get in the way of the ideal sometimes.

Elitist is good. As in intellectual (not financial) elites.

On the other hand, given SDN's "mission", one would expect them to want to attract the elites, not just the masses. Because, otherwise, SDN will be just another "safe place" where the blind are leading the blind, and they can change their motto into "We help students become providers".

One has to be truly dumb to not understand the value of being surrounded by people who are smarter, wiser, with real world experience, even if what they say hurts. That's the first rule of success if one asks almost any accomplished person: surround yourself with people you can learn from.

 

[atomheart]

It's like the place turned into Fox news after the Roger Ailes allegations. Amazing.

The only comment here that I like is that one about being willing to walk out before the shtf.

 

[Spikebd]

The only way to effectively quash ill-formed opinions and lousy arguments is to allow for open discussion. When you go out of your way to ban people who have unpopular opinions, you only serve to bolster those unpopular opinions.

Since his ban, do we think Psai has changed his mind about DOs? Are Psai's followers and fans now thinking, "Oh, Psai got banned... I guess his opinion about DOs wasn't valid after all"? Are the hundreds of physicians and medical students on SDN who secretly agree with Psai about the inferiority of DOs now changing their opinions? No one's opinion has been changed, and if anything, negative opinions of DOs have been reinforced because now you've created another martyr for the anti-DO cause.

I understand the concern about a possible trolling epidemic on this forum, but banning isn't the answer. The most effective way to prevent a toxic culture on here is to encourage long-time users to be proactive and say, "Hey, you're spreading controversial opinions. Let's see your arguments so that we can have a serious, open-minded discussion about this."

I agree with your sentiment but the internet has decided to silence those who are unorthodox. Censorship works. I loathe it. But thought police is very real, and has been going on since before we were all born.

 

[SLC]

well, i think you're missing my point: if we can say that about CRNAs and not get banned in this forum. He was not banned based on what he said, but who he said it to. which is a infringement on free speech because the ban is not 100% based on the toxicity of his comments.

I guess he won't be back.... @AcidBase23 got insta-banned HAHAHAHA

Freedom of speech? Really? This ain’t the US government, it’s a private site with rules that are expected to be followed and a bare minimum of decorum expected from a group of so-called “professionals”. Psai got what was coming to him.

 

[anbuitachi]

Freedom of speech? Really? This ain’t the US government, it’s a private site with rules that are expected to be followed and a bare minimum of decorum expected from a group of so-called “professionals”. Psai got what was coming to him.

theres no freedom of speech anywhere. its all BS. or i guess the correct thing is to say you can say whatever you want, but there are consequences

 

[jw3600]

You guys are missing the point. Freedom of speech isn’t about the right to say what you want. It’s the mantra of unrestricted thought to foster debate and progression of ideas.

 

[deleted171991]

You guys are missing the point. Freedom of speech isn’t about the right to say what you want. It’s the mantra of unrestricted thought to foster debate and progression of ideas.

You are confusing freedom of speech with freedom of thought/conscience.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Also: Freedom of speech in the United States - Wikipedia including the part about private actors and companies.

"Modern view

As a result of the jurisprudence of the Warren Court in the mid-to-late 20th century, the Court has moved towards a baseline default rule under which freedom of speech is generally presumed to be protected, unless a specific exception applies. Therefore, apart from certain narrow exceptions, the government normally cannot regulate the content of speech. In 1971, in Cohen v. California, Justice John Marshall Harlan II, citing Whitney v. California, emphasized that the First Amendment operates to protect the inviolability of "a marketplace of ideas", while Associate Justice Thurgood Marshall cogently explained in 1972 that:

[A]bove all else, the First Amendment means that government has no power to restrict expression because of its message, its ideas, its subject matter, or its content. [Citations.] To permit the continued building of our politics and culture, and to assure self-fulfillment for each individual, our people are guaranteed the right to express any thought, free from government censorship. The essence of this forbidden censorship is content control. Any restriction on expressive activity because of its content would completely undercut the 'profound national commitment to the principle that debate on public issues should be uninhibited, robust, and wide-open.' [Citation.][15]"
​

None of these apply to SDN, because one can always tell a guest to leave one's property.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Sucks. The guy has really good insightful posts sometimes. But he’d been warned a lot about being a tool and on the premed and med student forums he very much was a tool. I remember a post one time about him putting down a university anesthesia program purely because the PD was a DO.

Everyone can whine about the snowflakes being offended or whatever. But expecting the rules that apply to everyone else to not apply to you is magical snowflake thinking imo.

 

[Liberty_99]

come on moderators please unban if you can this is not the american way .if you dont like his views just press ignore .he's been very helpfulto some here

Thanks.

I see the “protection” as upholding the terms of service.

That being said society has changed and whether you want to call it “snowflakes” or not, sensibilities are different than when you and I were young pups.

I certainly have had inner eye rolls over some of the things that are reported. But one of the problems we are facing is a toxic reputation amongst premeds, med school advisers etc. Evaluating that reputation has led us to see that many users stay away because of these more insensitive or rougher comments made by our users. While we can’t cater to everyone and we certainly can’t protect everyone’s feelings it is part of our job as I see it to move us toward a kinder atmosphere.