What is the WORST medical school?

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sammiesings said:
yes, that's a fact. i was referring to the vague "they're under lcme's radar and may not have a school soon" lcme knew they were doing the above. so its not for that reason they're "on lcme's radar."

and if they're not actually in immediate danger of being shut down, we shouldn't be spreading that, right?
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I don’t think anyone’s explicitly said they’re in immediate danger of being shut down.

They said they’re on the LCME’s radar, which I can neither prove nor disprove. Goro and Gyngyn haven't lied to me yet, though, so I have no reason not to believe that statement.

They said that some residency PDs they know are wary of CNUs education. I think that’s a fair statement. They’re a new school, using a relatively new teaching system, and it seems like they’re breaking away from tradition. I would be surprised if Program Directors weren’t wary of them until they graduated multiple successful classes of residents.

Finally, we’re both in agreement that they won’t make federal aid available because they want to save admin costs. That’s pretty blatantly against student interests and as of right now, puts their students in a worse position than other graduates financially. I will admit that I don’t know much about the private loan system for medical school, but I know it doesn’t allow forgiveness and I am unsure if there is income based repayment.

The biggest problem with no federal loans seems to be that they are doing it to save money and pander to investors. Which brings into question what else they’d do to pander to investors. If someone offered them 100 million to teach that abortion is immoral, would they do it?
 
FlavivirusProtease said:
I don’t think anyone’s explicitly said they’re in immediate danger of being shut down.

They said they’re on the LCME’s radar, which I can neither prove nor disprove. Goro and Gyngyn haven't lied to me yet, though, so I have no reason not to believe that statement.

They said that some residency PDs they know are wary of CNUs education. I think that’s a fair statement. They’re a new school, using a relatively new teaching system, and it seems like they’re breaking away from tradition. I would be surprised if Program Directors weren’t wary of them until they graduated multiple successful classes of residents.

Finally, we’re both in agreement that they won’t make federal aid available because they want to save admin costs. That’s pretty blatantly against student interests and as of right now, puts their students in a worse position than other graduates financially. I will admit that I don’t know much about the private loan system for medical school, but I know it doesn’t allow forgiveness and I am unsure if there is income based repayment.

The biggest problem with no federal loans seems to be that they are doing it to save money and pander to investors. Which brings into question what else they’d do to pander to investors. If someone offered them 100 million to teach that abortion is immoral, would they do it?
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Wait...why? This has all been said and I don't care. Lol sorry to be blunt. But I'm an M1 elsewhere, and while I wish them well, I really don't care for this huge block of text, buddy
 
sammiesings said:
Wait...why? This has all been said and I don't care. Lol sorry to be blunt. But I'm an M1 elsewhere, and while I wish them well, I really don't care for this huge block of text, buddy
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You spent god knows how long looking through the thread and finding someone who validated your beliefs (Osmonig) and you suddenly don’t have time to do 38 seconds of reading? (I read slowly and timed it)
 
FlavivirusProtease said:
You spent god knows how long looking through the thread and finding someone who validated your beliefs (Osmonig) and you suddenly don’t have time to do 38 seconds of reading? (I read slowly and timed it)
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When you have no way to respond to a well-reasoned argument, you may find you suddenly have better things to do.
 
Or you find out it's the same **** being rehashed and you're bored because you thought it was gonna be some more juicy gossip 😛
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
When you have no way to respond to a well-reasoned argument, you may find you suddenly have better things to do.
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At the end of the day, the LCME has high standards for accreditation and CNU has been meeting them, period. There is no "radar" to talk about. If the LCME didn't think CNU was up to par, it wouldn't let students enroll there. It's really that simple.

Instead of viewing CNU's policies as being directly opposed to student interests or "pandering to investors," consider the enormous risks that the investors and administrators had to take in order to make CNU a reality. CNU fills an important need in California, where there's a huge number of qualified pre-meds and not enough med school spots. 80% of CNU's student body consists of California residents; if the investors' entrepreneurial risk-taking didn't come with potential rewards, CNU wouldn't exist and many of its students (~33/3.5 average stats) would have to go to med school outside of their home state. And as it continues down the road to full accreditation, it'll likely start to allow federal loans.

When the CNU c/o 2019 match list comes out in a year, we'll talk about the "PD bias" argument. CNU students' average board performance roughly matched national averages (with a 100% pass rate), so I would expect the match list to resemble those of other low-tier MD programs.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
I'm sure that's what it is.
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Lol. Let's talk when you're in med school and you can tell me how your maturity levels remain in the day before an exam. I wanted gossip to distract myself from my neuro exam, I got none except a wall of text about stuff I don't care about and am not invested in AND has already been said by people much more in the know than an applicant (ie: gyngyn and Goro).

Was I a little mean and even a little immature? Yeah probably. But if ya think I care about my online presence enough to be saying that's what it was if it wasn't....k. Not trying to convince you, boo <3. Have a good one
 
Osminog said:
CNU fills an important need in California, where there's a huge number of qualified pre-meds and not enough med school spots.
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You and I have very different definitions of “important need” if your idea of an important need is finding medical school seats for pre-meds. The sole reason CNU exists is to make money.

Osminog said:
And as it continues down the road to full accreditation, it'll likely start to allow federal loans.
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Seeing as they have already been given the opportunity to do so multiple times and refuse to allow them I have no idea why you think this would be the case.
 
Osminog said:
At the end of the day, the LCME has high standards for accreditation and CNU has been meeting them, period. There is no "radar" to talk about. If the LCME didn't think CNU was up to par, it wouldn't let students enroll there. It's really that simple.

Instead of viewing CNU's policies as being directly opposed to student interests or "pandering to investors," consider the enormous risks that the investors and administrators had to take in order to make CNU a reality. CNU fills an important need in California, where there's a huge number of qualified pre-meds and not enough med school spots. 80% of CNU's student body consists of California residents; if the investors' entrepreneurial risk-taking didn't come with potential rewards, CNU wouldn't exist and many of its students (~33/3.5 average stats) would have to go to med school outside of their home state. And as it continues down the road to full accreditation, it'll likely start to allow federal loans.

When the CNU c/o 2019 match list comes out in a year, we'll talk about the "PD bias" argument. CNU students' average board performance roughly matched national averages (with a 100% pass rate), so I would expect the match list to resemble those of other low-tier MD programs.
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It seems like the advice you're giving is: "You guys can't without a shadow of a doubt prove it's a sinking ship, so it's okay to let other people invest the entirety of their future in buying a ticket onto that ship and then letting them go on a trip and see if it sinks."

I'm of the opinion that if you're making a commitment as big as medical school, you need to be certain it will pan out for you. For that reason I wouldn't go to a Caribbean with a high attrition rate or a new school that is showing some questionable practices.
 
sammiesings said:
Lol. Let's talk when you're in med school and you can tell me how your maturity levels remain in the day before an exam. I wanted gossip to distract myself from my neuro exam, I got none except a wall of text about stuff I don't care about and am not invested in AND has already been said by people much more in the know than an applicant (ie: gyngyn and Goro).

Was I a little mean and even a little immature? Yeah probably. But if ya think I care about my online presence enough to be saying that's what it was if it wasn't....k. Not trying to convince you, boo <3. Have a good one
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I’m not your boo, sport. I’m 34 years old with quite a bit of life experience. My maturity level doesn’t fluctuate based on an exam schedule.
 
FlavivirusProtease said:
It seems like the advice you're giving is: "You guys can't without a shadow of a doubt prove it's a sinking ship, so it's okay to let other people invest the entirety of their future in buying a ticket onto that ship and then letting them go on a trip and see if it sinks."

I'm of the opinion that if you're making a commitment as big as medical school, you need to be certain it will pan out for you. For that reason I wouldn't go to a Caribbean with a high attrition rate or a new school that is showing some questionable practices.
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No. I'm saying that you haven't provided any actual evidence that it's a "sinking ship." LCME has allowed CNU to enroll students since 2015, and so far, the outcomes have been completely acceptable, either matching or exceeding outcomes at most other low-tier MD programs.

In 2007, there were long threads on SDN devoted to opposing the opening of RVUCOM ("DOCTORS, NOT DOLLARS!"). Well, joke's on them. At this point, RVUCOM arguably has the best match lists out of all the DO schools. And guess who was at the forefront of the anti-RVUCOM movement in 2007? Dr. George Mychaskiw II, a current dean at Burrell COM -- another new for-profit DO school. (See: Opposition to Rocky Vista For-Profit Osteopathic School)

There's no reason to worry, There's absolutely no good reason to compare CNU to Caribbean schools.. CNU will most likely be totally fine.
 
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Osminog said:
At the end of the day, the LCME has high standards for accreditation and CNU has been meeting them, period. There is no "radar" to talk about. If the LCME didn't think CNU was up to par, it wouldn't let students enroll there. It's really that simple.

Instead of viewing CNU's policies as being directly opposed to student interests or "pandering to investors," consider the enormous risks that the investors and administrators had to take in order to make CNU a reality. CNU fills an important need in California, where there's a huge number of qualified pre-meds and not enough med school spots. 80% of CNU's student body consists of California residents; if the investors' entrepreneurial risk-taking didn't come with potential rewards, CNU wouldn't exist and many of its students (~33/3.5 average stats) would have to go to med school outside of their home state. And as it continues down the road to full accreditation, it'll likely start to allow federal loans.

When the CNU c/o 2019 match list comes out in a year, we'll talk about the "PD bias" argument. CNU students' average board performance roughly matched national averages (with a 100% pass rate), so I would expect the match list to resemble those of other low-tier MD programs.
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lol'ed at "important need"
 
Osminog said:
No. I'm saying that you haven't provided any actual evidence that it's a "sinking ship." LCME has allowed CNU to enroll students since 2015, and so far, the outcomes have been completely acceptable, either matching or exceeding outcomes at most other low-tier MD programs.

In 2007, there were long threads on SDN devoted to opposing the opening of RVUCOM ("DOCTORS, NOT DOLLARS!"). Well, joke's on them. At this point, RVUCOM arguably has the best match lists out of all the DO schools. And guess who was at the forefront of the anti-RVUCOM movement in 2007? Dr. George Mychaskiw II, a current dean at Burrell COM -- another new for-profit DO school. (See: Opposition to Rocky Vista For-Profit Osteopathic School)

There's no reason to worry. CNU will most likely be totally fine. There's absolutely no good reason to compare CNU to Caribbean schools.
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The difference is RVU made federal aid available as soon as it was possible. CNU could have made it available but chose not to as a cost cutting measure. That’s much more akin to a Carib school.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
To be fair, it might be very important to some people to stay close to home. Just because we don’t see it that way doesn’t make it less valid.
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The point was that medical schools filling a need of pre-meds. Thats kinda backwards when the purpose of such institutions is to fill needs of communities.

Plus there is no guarantee, Most applicants get into one school and go to that school. People always have the option of not going to medical school.

There are also multiple DO schools in California or close to it.

And CNU has 100 seats to fill the need of 5000~california applicants?
 
libertyyne said:
The point was that medical schools filling a need of pre-meds. Thats kinda backwards when the purpose of such institutions is to fill needs of communities.

Plus there is no guarantee, Most applicants get into one school and go to that school. People always have the option of not going to medical school.

There are also multiple DO schools in California or close to it.

And CNU has 100 seats to fill the need of 5000~california applicants?
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I totally agree. I’m just saying, just because we are going into medicine doesn’t mean we don’t also have needs.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
I totally agree. I’m just saying, just because we are going into medicine doesn’t mean we don’t also have needs.
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I understand and acknowledge that, But the goal of CNU is not to fill such a need, rather it is to make a profit for its shareholders. Its not like CNU would shut its doors if california residents stopped applying.
 
libertyyne said:
I understand and acknowledge that, But the goal of CNU is not to fill such a need, rather it is to make a profit for its shareholders. Its not like CNU would shut its doors if california residents stopped applying.
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Why exactly is wanting to make a profit in and of itself bad? It's certainly not any worse than the "Working late again, almost 3:15" mentality that predominates the state's bureaucracies.

If student and patient outcomes are bad, those would be valid reasons to step in.
 
WedgeDawg said:
Just FYI NYU has mandatory thank you notes too.

I don't really get why schools do that
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omg is this a real thing? I'm pretty sure I forgot to send a thank you to them after my interview....could explain the result.
 
My vote is MSU "Bone whispering" COM

Followed by Western "Because I got high" Lebanon
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
The difference is RVU made federal aid available as soon as it was possible. CNU could have made it available but chose not to as a cost cutting measure. That’s much more akin to a Carib school.
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I don't quite see the parallel. Caribbean schools make federal aid availability their top priority. They want that sweet sweet loan money from as many students as possible, attrition be damned.

I have family members applying to medical school within the next few years. Who live in CA. If they got into Cal Northstate and some of these other schools talked about in the thread? I'd encourage them to go to Northstate.

As I (apparently in 2016) mentioned, nothing can really be worse than the random DO schools that have minimal rotation sites of their own for half their third years and none at all for their fourth years, basically making you arrange all your own clinical experiences while taking full tuition. A school like that wouldn't meet LCME criteria, versus Northstate apparently does ("radar" notwithstanding). Looking at their website, they certainly have appropriate #s of clinical sites for their students, and don't require random aways.
 
Raryn said:
I don't quite see the parallel. Caribbean schools make federal aid availability their top priority. They want that sweet sweet loan money from as many students as possible, attrition be damned.

I have family members applying to medical school within the next few years. Who live in CA. If they got into Cal Northstate and some of these other schools talked about in the thread? I'd encourage them to go to Northstate.

As I (apparently in 2016) mentioned, nothing can really be worse than the random DO schools that have minimal rotation sites of their own for half their third years and none at all for their fourth years, basically making you arrange all your own clinical experiences while taking full tuition. A school like that wouldn't meet LCME criteria, versus Northstate apparently does ("radar" notwithstanding). Looking at their website, they certainly have appropriate #s of clinical sites for their students, and don't require random aways.
Click to expand...

This is correct. I have no idea how rural DO schools are getting away with charging 60k and offering limited/no 3rd or 4th year support.

Worse when they do not even have faculty on campus and when most of their lectures are streamed from other campuses.
 
[
Skiiiiiing said:
This is correct. I have no idea how rural DO schools are getting away with charging 60k and offering limited/no 3rd or 4th year support.

Worse when they do not even have faculty on campus and when most of their lectures are streamed from other campuses.
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See what you dont understand is that they are just more holistic in their acreditations.

No hospital ,no problem.
No instructors, no problem.

Would you like an additional campus with 300 more students ? Done.
 
Raryn said:
I don't quite see the parallel. Caribbean schools make federal aid availability their top priority. They want that sweet sweet loan money from as many students as possible, attrition be damned.

I have family members applying to medical school within the next few years. Who live in CA. If they got into Cal Northstate and some of these other schools talked about in the thread? I'd encourage them to go to Northstate.

As I (apparently in 2016) mentioned, nothing can really be worse than the random DO schools that have minimal rotation sites of their own for half their third years and none at all for their fourth years, basically making you arrange all your own clinical experiences while taking full tuition. A school like that wouldn't meet LCME criteria, versus Northstate apparently does ("radar" notwithstanding). Looking at their website, they certainly have appropriate #s of clinical sites for their students, and don't require random aways.
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I don’t disagree with any of this.
 
Goro said:
Seriously, a med student shouldn't have to have their degree solely depend upon the efforts of the med school's lawyers at holding the LCME at bay.
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From what I understand of LCME policy if a medical school closes then those students at the school will be offered positions at other medical schools in the U.S, though this occurs so infrequently that I am not sure if or how this is actually carried out.

500miles said:
Wow... I truly didn't think med schools got as ****ty as this. I will NEVER apply to LCOM, Touro or CNU. I just thought that a med school is a med school, but the stuff on this thread *shudders* .. worried about getting caught in a bar or watching porn as a grown as adult!
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There are actually a couple medical schools (both DO and MD) which I think are worse than 2 of the 3 you named (hint, not LUCOM or CNU) and which I frankly don't think should remain open. That's my personal opinion based on their consistently terrible pass rates for boards and match rates.

Skiiiiiing said:
This is correct. I have no idea how rural DO schools are getting away with charging 60k and offering limited/no 3rd or 4th year support.

Worse when they do not even have faculty on campus and when most of their lectures are streamed from other campuses.
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Depends on the rural area. For example, the school opening in Idaho is fulfilling a need as there are no med schools at all in Idaho, Wyoming, or Montana. I have several classmates from one of those states who plan to return after med school/residency who would have loved to stay closer to home fro med school.

I'm mostly addressing how rural schools can exist and justify a 60k tuition (for both MD and DO schools). No excuse for terrible clinicals or total lack of support though.
 
Stagg737 said:
From what I understand of LCME policy if a medical school closes then those students at the school will be offered positions at other medical schools in the U.S, though this occurs so infrequently that I am not sure if or how this is actually carried out.
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So the last time a school almost sorta lost it's accreditation was in 2011 with San Juan Bautista SOM in PR. For not having enough rotation spots. That said, after some negotiation with the LCME (and iirc, a lawsuit), that got overturned and they stayed open. I think everyone graduated on time, but students were looking at transfers to other programs when this was going down.

If we ignore that one, in the last hundred years... one MD-granting institution in the US has closed. Oral Roberts University School of Medicine in 1990. Because it went bankrupt (LCME never pulled their accreditation) The students transferred to other institutions.

Somehow I think the CNU kids are safe. 😉

Edit: Oh, and I found another one: Keck SOM at USC closed from 1921-1928. Also because of bankruptcy. I have no clue what happened to any students in 1920.
 
TRPMinus said:
omg is this a real thing? I'm pretty sure I forgot to send a thank you to them after my interview....could explain the result.
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I asked this year and they were completely optional. I can’t speak for previous years. I sent a thank you and was waitlisted, so I don’t think it makes a difference.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
FlavivirusProtease said:
I don’t think anyone’s explicitly said they’re in immediate danger of being shut down.

They said they’re on the LCME’s radar, which I can neither prove nor disprove. Goro and Gyngyn haven't lied to me yet, though, so I have no reason not to believe that statement.

They said that some residency PDs they know are wary of CNUs education. I think that’s a fair statement. They’re a new school, using a relatively new teaching system, and it seems like they’re breaking away from tradition. I would be surprised if Program Directors weren’t wary of them until they graduated multiple successful classes of residents.

Finally, we’re both in agreement that they won’t make federal aid available because they want to save admin costs. That’s pretty blatantly against student interests and as of right now, puts their students in a worse position than other graduates financially. I will admit that I don’t know much about the private loan system for medical school, but I know it doesn’t allow forgiveness and I am unsure if there is income based repayment.

The biggest problem with no federal loans seems to be that they are doing it to save money and pander to investors. Which brings into question what else they’d do to pander to investors. If someone offered them 100 million to teach that abortion is immoral, would they do it?
Click to expand...

It's not necessarily that CNU is not allowing medical students access to federal aid. Federal aid is only available to fully accredited schools. They wouldn't be able to have that option at this stage. We'll see if they offer it if they become fully accredited
 
michaeljimpam said:
It's not necessarily that CNU is not allowing medical students access to federal aid. Federal aid is only available to fully accredited schools. They wouldn't be able to have that option at this stage. We'll see if they offer it if they become fully accredited
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CNU had the option to do so because they already have an accredited pharmacy school. They chose not to.
 
California Northstate, Loma Linda, Stryker, Loyola, SUNY... these are the schools I've heard bashed by attendings in the OR
 
Some of the schools are obvious, but I'm curious about some of the others since they're not on the usual complaints lists. Did the attendings just interact with bad residents, or was it a general theme of ineptitude?
 
Wouldn’t it be one of those completely secluded schools? Like in Alabama or something.
 
FlavivirusProtease said:
Not based on education quality, the worst medical school is the one that sends you a secondary to make you think that you have a chance, takes your $100 fee, and then sends you a rejection a few hours later.

Looking at you, VCU.
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wut
 
FlavivirusProtease said:
VCU sent me a rejection less than 24 hours after getting my secondary submission. Obviously they didn’t even read it or actually consider my application, but just wanted the secondary fee.
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That is crazy. Why do you think they did that?? It was probably a glitch honestly
 
Anonymityismyname18 said:
Why would they drop Flavivirus like that tho? 3.49 and 516? The GPA? That's pretty cold lol
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Their median GPA was a 3.71. Maybe they thought 3.49 was too low? It is below their 25th %ile. Maybe that combined with not liking the secondary responses. Who knows?
 
libertyyne said:
or they read it and didnt like it.
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That's also possible, but I doubt they actually read them, seeing as I submitted at 7PM Pacific and got my rejection at 4:50AM pacific. So unless someone put in a really late night or got in really early in the morning and immediately read mine, I don't think it's possible.
 
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FWIW, I’ve heard VCU rejects promptly based on your secondary response. Maybe they didn’t agree with the way you said you would handle the situation? I have a lower GPA than FlavivirusProtease and they took until maybe March to reject me, so it’s not based on stats. However, I applied in September, so it probably took them forever to read it...


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
DBC03 said:
FWIW, I’ve heard VCU rejects promptly based on your secondary response. Maybe they didn’t agree with the way you said you would handle the situation? I have a lower GPA than FlavivirusProtease and they took until maybe March to reject me, so it’s not based on stats. However, I applied in September, so it probably took them forever to read it...


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
Click to expand...

Ah yeah, I forgot they asked the ethics question!
 
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