When to apply?

[Hedgehog32]

Just to give you a little bit of hope, I graduated seven years ago. I had always wanted to work at the VA in an inpatient setting. I didn't do a residency and ended up working retail for seven years, always watching USAJOBS and applying 45 times to various roles. I hated retail 99% of the time but it paid the bills and gave me experience. Finally a job opportunity opened up and I was able to, with the help of some of my previous preceptors at said VA, secure an inpatient job. It is possible, you just have to deal with crap you don't want to do for a while.

I'm glad you were able to escape from retail, but the fact that you had to spend 7 years doing a job you acknowledged you hated sort of speaks to why I'm tempted to switch gears and pursue something else altogether. Regardless of whether it's a pharmacy job or something totally unrelated, I just can't imagine forcing myself to work a job I hate for so many years.

I feel like I'm in a paradoxical situation here: I'm an older student, so you'd think I'd be happy to just be done with school and take any job I can get, but at the same time, my sentiments are, if I've wasted this much time already, what's another 3-4 months of bootcamp training if it will give me the opportunity to finally have a career that satisfies at least a few of my criteria?

Since I screwed up my chances of getting my career going when I was younger, I just don't know if I'm comfortable with wasting potentially even more years being in a life situation I'm unhappy with if I could otherwise shorten that timeframe from "years" to "a few more months."

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[BC_89]

First of all, I don't think your analogy that compares the career trajectory of the PA I know to that of some pharmacists' is really accurate. First of all, orthopedic surgery PA jobs are actually considered to be highly desirable to many PAs (largely because of the $$$), and it's not considered to be a universally undesirable "stepping stone" job that new graduate PAs take because they realize they have to pay their dues in order to get a "better" job. He (and the vast majority of PAs who take jobs in orthopedic surgery) applied for the job because he was interested in orthopedic surgery and wanted to make lots of money. After he became burned out from the intense schedule, he decided to apply for a job as an ER PA that offered similar pay to his orthopedic surgery job but for a much more humane schedule.

In other words, he didn't apply for the orthopedic surgery job because he realized he needed to start at the bottom, and at the same time, transitioning from his orthopedic surgery job to his ER job wasn't a vertical (I.e., upwards trajectory) move - most PAs would consider it to be a lateral move. In fact, I know another guy from undergrad who graduated a few years ago from South U's PA program in Savannah, GA who took an ER position as his first PA job out of school.

Basically, the point I'm trying to make is that those guys chose to apply to the jobs they applied to upon graduation because they had specific preferences in mind regarding the kind of medicine they wanted to practice and where they wanted to work. From what they've told me, if a PA is flexible regarding location, they can get a job in pretty much any specialty. The only exception might be dermatology, which they tell me has gotten very competitive in recent years.

I think a more accurate analogy would be to compare the situation of a PA who graduates into a saturated job market and has no options aside from working for a high volume pediatrics practice that involves seeing 30+ patients per day, getting practically no breaks during the day, having to take call and/or stay late multiple nights per week, and earning a significantly below-average salary (pediatrics PAs actually do earn the lowest salaries of all PAs on average). After "getting over themselves" and grinding through that miserable job for a few years, they leverage that experience to apply for a relatively cushy dermatology PA job that receives 50+ applications, pays 2x the money and a better benefits package, and doesn't require them to take any call.

Anyways, I know you said that it's not necessarily true that working as a retail pharmacist always makes someone unhireable for hospital positions, but I can tell you that at the hospitals in my area, it does. This is coming directly from the DOP of the hospital system I used to work for as well as from pharmacists who work at the other hospital in town.

There's a pharmacist who has worked inpatient at one of the local hospitals for several decades, and her husband has both outpatient hospital pharmacy experience as well as experience working for Walgreens, and even he can't get a basic staffing position despite being married to one of hospital's veteran inpatient pharmacists.

The scary thing about this is that I don't live in what most people would call a desirable area, so if the hospitals in my crappy city consider retail pharmacists to be branded by the "scarlet letter," then how far into BFE would you actually have to go to find a hospital that *would* be willing to hire a pharmacist with only retail experience?

BTW, I'm surprised that people consider my mentality of potentially wanting to transition into CS to sound entitled because I look at it like this: there are numerous risks associated with completing a CS bootcamp program, such as the very real possibility of failing out, simply not liking coding as a full-time endeavor, not being able to keep up with the pace of the course, etc. So if anything, I'd expect people to have a reaction more along the lines of, "If you're unhappy with your prospects in pharmacy and are willing to assume the risks associated with doing a bootcamp program, then just know that you're not guaranteed an ideal outcome with CS either." Or something like that. (There's probably a better way to word it, but it's just not coming to me right now.)

After reading your first small paragraph, I had to skim the rest of your dialogue here. You're caught up in the small details and "analogies" and seem to have overlooked the other main points that is directed to you. Lets be honest, are you really debating a reasoning as to why your PA friend is not a princess to my perspective? Lets move on from this.

There is nothing perplexed about your situation. Simply "take retail BFE and build a savings account and/or hit some student loans" or "go to a boot camp program." Again, you didn't really prepare for a program residency and you're not willing to work short term gains for a long term goal. You also implied that you're not willing to leave your area and made the assumption that you wont be able to do what you want (or worse, it'd be hard and you're not willing to work for it). So, go to CS.

If age is an issue for you, then act now. I don't believe anyone blames you for switching, only for giving up before you ever started because you didn't have it your way.

 

[ValeRx]

I'm glad you were able to escape from retail, but the fact that you had to spend 7 years doing a job you acknowledged you hated sort of speaks to why I'm tempted to switch gears and pursue something else altogether. Regardless of whether it's a pharmacy job or something totally unrelated, I just can't imagine forcing myself to work a job I hate for so many years.

I feel like I'm in a paradoxical situation here: I'm an older student, so you'd think I'd be happy to just be done with school and take any job I can get, but at the same time, my sentiments are, if I've wasted this much time already, what's another 3-4 months of bootcamp training if it will give me the opportunity to finally have a career that satisfies at least a few of my criteria?

Since I screwed up my chances of getting my career going when I was younger, I just don't know if I'm comfortable with wasting potentially even more years being in a life situation I'm unhappy with if I could otherwise shorten that timeframe from "years" to "a few more months."

I didn't have to, it just took me seven years to find the place I really wanted to go. Retail typically pays more than inpatient so I really just stuck it out for the paycheck. Retail also got progressively worse over the last 3-4 years. At first it wasn't terrible but as metrics began to take precedence over patient safety and staff sanity, I began to lose interest in the job.

 

[Hedgehog32]

After reading your first small paragraph, I had to skim the rest of your dialogue here. You're caught up in the small details and "analogies" and seem to have overlooked the other main points that is directed to you. Lets be honest, are you really debating a reasoning as to why your PA friend is not a princess to my perspective? Lets move on from this.

There is nothing perplexed about your situation. Simply "take retail BFE and build a savings account and/or hit some student loans" or "go to a boot camp program." Again, you didn't really prepare for a program residency and you're not willing to work short term gains for a long term goal. You also implied that you're not willing to leave your area and made the assumption that you wont be able to do what you want (or worse, it'd be hard and you're not willing to work for it). So, go to CS.

If age is an issue for you, then act now. I don't believe anyone blames you for switching, only for giving up before you ever started because you didn't have it your way.

Again, you made a few assumptions in your post that aren't really accurate. For example, you said that I'm not willing to leave my area, which is not the case; I actually hope to leave my area eventually and move to somewhere nicer.

Having said that, I would be willing to move to BFE for a job that is at least tolerable. What I can't get behind, however, is the thought of moving to BFE (an area I would prefer not to live in) for a job I would really despise. And for how long? I know you're convinced that I'd be able to leverage the BFE retail experience into an inpatient position somewhere, but even on the lists of hard-to-fill inpatient staffing jobs I've been receiving via email from CompHealth, there's a huge red blurb printed across the top of the page: "RETAIL EXPERIENCE IS NOT CONSIDERED."

So if the hospitals with these hard-to-fill inpatient positions in BFE aren't willing to consider retail experience, then which ones are? I'm honestly curious.

I could very well end up being wrong here, but I have the feeling that the handful of inpatient positions I'd be eligible for with BFE retail experience would be jobs of comparable desirability to the BFE retail positions - I.e., BFE inpatient jobs.

I guess one of the reasons I've developed an increasingly distasteful attitude towards pharmacy is recent months is not because you can't get the perfect unicorn job right out of school; rather it's because it's in a state of affairs (oversaturation, PBM reimbursement issues, chain focus on metrics, etc.) that has created the reality where the only job someone can get is the most undesirable one out there.

I'm not saying that I'm only willing to take a highly desirable clinical pharmacist position that involves rounding with doctors, having my own office, living/working in some hugely desirable metropolis, and getting union benefits on top of that... but at the same time, I just want something, anything other than what is largely considered to be the most undesirable job in pharmacy (at least according to a lot of pharmacists).

Before you say that my unwillingness to move to the middle of nowhere for a position that involves standing for 14 hrs/day, not taking any breaks, being berated by the public, and often staying 1-2 hours after closing to work for free is indicative of my princess mentality, just hear me out on one last thing.

If I had the princess mentality, I'd say that if I do switch to CS, then the only job I'd be willing to take is one with one of the big tech companies in a highly desirable large city. The point I'm making is that I'd be happy (and would expect) to take more of a middle-of-the-road position that doesn't allow me to live in the best city or have the most desirable CS job right out of the gate. At the same time, though, I also wouldn't want to move to rural SD/ND to take a CS job that involves working under miserable conditions for the most ill-reputed employer in the tech industry.

And I think that's where the crux of my argument lies: the CS job market is still healthy enough so as to allow even entry-level professionals to exercise at least SOME degree of preference over the job they take, whereas in pharmacy that's not only not the case anymore, but it's even gotten to the point that it's now considered to be a red flag for someone to express any preference at all (whether that's over practice setting, location, or any other factors).

BTW, I honestly believe the reason you willfully ignored by PA job switching analogy is because you don't want to consider anything that might poke holes in your blanket argument that it's considered a character flaw for ANY new grad in ANY profession to express a preference in what they take for their first job, but that's fine.

 

[BC_89]

Again, you made a few assumptions in your post that aren't really accurate. For example, you said that I'm not willing to leave my area, which is not the case; I actually hope to leave my area eventually and move to somewhere nicer.

Having said that, I would be willing to move to BFE for a job that is at least tolerable. What I can't get behind, however, is the thought of moving to BFE (an area I would prefer not to live in) for a job I would really despise. And for how long? I know you're convinced that I'd be able to leverage the BFE retail experience into an inpatient position somewhere, but even on the lists of hard-to-fill inpatient staffing jobs I've been receiving via email from CompHealth, there's a huge red blurb printed across the top of the page: "RETAIL EXPERIENCE IS NOT CONSIDERED."

So if the hospitals with these hard-to-fill inpatient positions in BFE aren't willing to consider retail experience, then which ones are? I'm honestly curious.

I could very well end up being wrong here, but I have the feeling that the handful of inpatient positions I'd be eligible for with BFE retail experience would be jobs of comparable desirability to the BFE retail positions - I.e., BFE inpatient jobs.

I guess one of the reasons I've developed an increasingly distasteful attitude towards pharmacy is recent months is not because you can't get the perfect unicorn job right out of school; rather it's because it's in a state of affairs (oversaturation, PBM reimbursement issues, chain focus on metrics, etc.) that has created the reality where the only job someone can get is the most undesirable one out there.

I'm not saying that I'm only willing to take a highly desirable clinical pharmacist position that involves rounding with doctors, having my own office, living/working in some hugely desirable metropolis, and getting union benefits on top of that... but at the same time, I just want something, anything other than what is largely considered to be the most undesirable job in pharmacy (at least according to a lot of pharmacists).

Before you say that my unwillingness to move to the middle of nowhere for a position that involves standing for 14 hrs/day, not taking any breaks, being berated by the public, and often staying 1-2 hours after closing to work for free is indicative of my princess mentality, just hear me out on one last thing.

If I had the princess mentality, I'd say that if I do switch to CS, then the only job I'd be willing to take is one with one of the big tech companies in a highly desirable large city. The point I'm making is that I'd be happy (and would expect) to take more of a middle-of-the-road position that doesn't allow me to live in the best city or have the most desirable CS job right out of the gate. At the same time, though, I also wouldn't want to move to rural SD/ND to take a CS job that involves working under miserable conditions for the most ill-reputed employer in the tech industry.

And I think that's where the crux of my argument lies: the CS job market is still healthy enough so as to allow even entry-level professionals to exercise at least SOME degree of preference over the job they take, whereas in pharmacy that's not only not the case anymore, but it's even gotten to the point that it's now considered to be a red flag for someone to express any preference at all (whether that's over practice setting, location, or any other factors).

BTW, I honestly believe the reason you willfully ignored by PA job switching analogy is because you don't want to consider anything that might poke holes in your blanket argument that it's considered a character flaw for ANY new grad in ANY profession to express a preference in what they take for their first job, but that's fine.

This took awhile to read for me but I got through it. What you are stating is nothing anyone on here will deny concerning pharmacy. You simply did not prepare yourself for what was to be expected. You have an opportunity to use your PharmD elsewhere and you simply do not want to. Fine. Either avoid retail and do whatever avenue you think you can do to work in a hospital or get out and do CS. That simple. There is no justifying the fact that you quit on yourself. Take your student debt, get in more debt, and pursue what you wish.

Once again, if you get anything from what I am telling you, its to build an emergency fund, and then pursue something else. Have a heart to heart with yourself and figure out when to act. If you have doubts with CS, then work retail and save money! Then take the plunge and consider options.

I dont know what blanket argument you think I have holes in, but I suppose I'll entertain your PA story with this:

1) PA friend got a job, PA friend hates job, PA friend finds another job, PA friend likes new job.
2) You dont have a job, You didnt get the job you wanted, You have a job opportunity, You don't like the job opportunity, You quit.

Tldr:

If you dont like pharmacy, leave. If your scared to pursue boot-camp program, then work and save money. If you realize boot-camp program is worth the risk, quit the temporary job and take your savings to start your new path. You made up your mind with options. Now be like Nike and just do it.

 

[TateThePharmacist]

I'll go ahead and assume that you're referring to me being one of those people you suspect of having multiple accounts for the purpose of spamming the CS profession. This isn't the case, but obviously you're entitled to believe what you want. The initial notion of pursuing a career in CS/IT was first planted in my mind a year or two ago by a relative who works as a sys admin for Cisco, and after I lost my hospital intern job and failed to match for residency, it naturally became more prudent to me to research alternative careers, just in case.

My reasoning for thinking you've got multiple accounts and just use them to push computer science is because I gave you great advise on what to do when you didn't match for your residency (you know, 3 months ago not 1-2 years ago) and that thread was the one where CS was suggested to you (by a deleted account known for having multiple accounts) and you seemed all interested like it was the first time the idea was brought to you.

Just curious - why is it so incredulous to you that someone with no job prospects in pharmacy might look into transitioning into a field like CS?

Nobody here gives a $#!% if you switch to CS, you just mention it in EVERY SINGLE COMMENT that you make!! Any thread that you get on, inevitably spirals downward towards computer science! If you contributed more to threads than pushing computer science you wouldn't constantly be in arguments with everyone.

Think about it like this: if you were a new grad who wanted an inpatient position and wanted to avoid retail at all costs, would you rather find yourself in the position next September/October of having no choice but to take a retail position in BFE (with the real possibility of never getting a hospital job), or would you rather complete a CS bootcamp program that you'd complete at around the same time and basically have your pick of non-BFE cities to live in, along with the "privelege" of being allowed to sit down and take breaks throughout the day instead of having to stand non-stop for 12-14 hrs/day and be lucky to get a few bathroom breaks?

I WAS IN THAT SITUATION!!! And I've mentioned it several times on threads that you're on. I did start applying to retail positions, luckily for me an inpatient position pulled through. And just so you know, it was extremely hard but I persisted and was actually offered 2 full time inpatient positions in BFE with no pharmacist experience. I've mentioned in several threads what to do in that situation, so rather than reiterate it here, go back through those threads and read my advise. But that's not really why you're here is it? So are you a CS recruiter? Or just a bitter old pharmacist trying to drive students away from the profession so you have less competition?

 

[PharFromNormal]

Again, you made a few assumptions in your post that aren't really accurate. For example, you said that I'm not willing to leave my area, which is not the case; I actually hope to leave my area eventually and move to somewhere nicer.

Having said that, I would be willing to move to BFE for a job that is at least tolerable. What I can't get behind, however, is the thought of moving to BFE (an area I would prefer not to live in) for a job I would really despise. And for how long? I know you're convinced that I'd be able to leverage the BFE retail experience into an inpatient position somewhere, but even on the lists of hard-to-fill inpatient staffing jobs I've been receiving via email from CompHealth, there's a huge red blurb printed across the top of the page: "RETAIL EXPERIENCE IS NOT CONSIDERED."

So if the hospitals with these hard-to-fill inpatient positions in BFE aren't willing to consider retail experience, then which ones are? I'm honestly curious.

I could very well end up being wrong here, but I have the feeling that the handful of inpatient positions I'd be eligible for with BFE retail experience would be jobs of comparable desirability to the BFE retail positions - I.e., BFE inpatient jobs.

I guess one of the reasons I've developed an increasingly distasteful attitude towards pharmacy is recent months is not because you can't get the perfect unicorn job right out of school; rather it's because it's in a state of affairs (oversaturation, PBM reimbursement issues, chain focus on metrics, etc.) that has created the reality where the only job someone can get is the most undesirable one out there.

I'm not saying that I'm only willing to take a highly desirable clinical pharmacist position that involves rounding with doctors, having my own office, living/working in some hugely desirable metropolis, and getting union benefits on top of that... but at the same time, I just want something, anything other than what is largely considered to be the most undesirable job in pharmacy (at least according to a lot of pharmacists).

Before you say that my unwillingness to move to the middle of nowhere for a position that involves standing for 14 hrs/day, not taking any breaks, being berated by the public, and often staying 1-2 hours after closing to work for free is indicative of my princess mentality, just hear me out on one last thing.

If I had the princess mentality, I'd say that if I do switch to CS, then the only job I'd be willing to take is one with one of the big tech companies in a highly desirable large city. The point I'm making is that I'd be happy (and would expect) to take more of a middle-of-the-road position that doesn't allow me to live in the best city or have the most desirable CS job right out of the gate. At the same time, though, I also wouldn't want to move to rural SD/ND to take a CS job that involves working under miserable conditions for the most ill-reputed employer in the tech industry.

And I think that's where the crux of my argument lies: the CS job market is still healthy enough so as to allow even entry-level professionals to exercise at least SOME degree of preference over the job they take, whereas in pharmacy that's not only not the case anymore, but it's even gotten to the point that it's now considered to be a red flag for someone to express any preference at all (whether that's over practice setting, location, or any other factors).

BTW, I honestly believe the reason you willfully ignored by PA job switching analogy is because you don't want to consider anything that might poke holes in your blanket argument that it's considered a character flaw for ANY new grad in ANY profession to express a preference in what they take for their first job, but that's fine.

Go do whatever you think is right for you next. There are people here trying to give you recommendations but you continue to try to pick apart things not related to the bigger picture they are attempting to tell you.

No one will lose sleep over you personally changing careers. No one will lose sleep over you going to cs boot camp. No one will lose sleep over you never working a day in retail.

I personally do not feel bad for you and it feels more and more you are trying to get people to do that.

This is who I feel bad for: all the people on here, including me, that day in and day out try to make sure the people entering pharmacy school have a realistic understanding of what awaits after graduation. I feel bad because this just reinforces we still have a lot more work to do to prevent the flocks of people that feel the way you do.

So excuse me while I go cry. Not for you and your bad decisions but for myself because I’ve failed yet again.

 

[Hedgehog32]

This took awhile to read for me but I got through it. What you are stating is nothing anyone on here will deny concerning pharmacy. You simply did not prepare yourself for what was to be expected. You have an opportunity to use your PharmD elsewhere and you simply do not want to. Fine. Either avoid retail and do whatever avenue you think you can do to work in a hospital or get out and do CS. That simple. There is no justifying the fact that you quit on yourself. Take your student debt, get in more debt, and pursue what you wish.

Once again, if you get anything from what I am telling you, its to build an emergency fund, and then pursue something else. Have a heart to heart with yourself and figure out when to act. If you have doubts with CS, then work retail and save money! Then take the plunge and consider options.

I dont know what blanket argument you think I have holes in, but I suppose I'll entertain your PA story with this:

1) PA friend got a job, PA friend hates job, PA friend finds another job, PA friend likes new job.
2) You dont have a job, You didnt get the job you wanted, You have a job opportunity, You don't like the job opportunity, You quit.

Tldr:

If you dont like pharmacy, leave. If your scared to pursue boot-camp program, then work and save money. If you realize boot-camp program is worth the risk, quit the temporary job and take your savings to start your new path. You made up your mind with options. Now be like Nike and just do it.

I agree that my major mistake was to not consider what I'd do in a worst-case scenario of not being able to find anything other than a BFE retail job, so you definitely made a solid point there. I guess it's also worth considering getting a retail job to save up an emergency fund before doing the coding bootcamp, but part of me wants to just quit wasting time and get going with things, so we'll see what happens.

BTW, the actual (I.e., correct) interpretation of the PA analogy that I tried to convey is this (in tl;dr form): there are other professions in which new graduates not only have flexibility over the position they take for their first job, but ones where they can actually "invoke" a sense of preference and specificity when it comes to actually applying for jobs without being blacklisted by others in the profession. That's the only point I was trying to make.

 

[Hedgehog32]

My reasoning for thinking you've got multiple accounts and just use them to push computer science is because I gave you great advise on what to do when you didn't match for your residency (you know, 3 months ago not 1-2 years ago) and that thread was the one where CS was suggested to you (by a deleted account known for having multiple accounts) and you seemed all interested like it was the first time the idea was brought to you.



Nobody here gives a $#!% if you switch to CS, you just mention it in EVERY SINGLE COMMENT that you make!! Any thread that you get on, inevitably spirals downward towards computer science! If you contributed more to threads than pushing computer science you wouldn't constantly be in arguments with everyone.



I WAS IN THAT SITUATION!!! And I've mentioned it several times on threads that you're on. I did start applying to retail positions, luckily for me an inpatient position pulled through. And just so you know, it was extremely hard but I persisted and was actually offered 2 full time inpatient positions in BFE with no pharmacist experience. I've mentioned in several threads what to do in that situation, so rather than reiterate it here, go back through those threads and read my advise. But that's not really why you're here is it? So are you a CS recruiter? Or just a bitter old pharmacist trying to drive students away from the profession so you have less competition?

From what I recall (and to be fair, I need to review the thread again), your advice was to essentially keep applying to BFE inpatient positions until you get a favorable response on one. That's literally what I've been doing for months (not just applying, but actually getting in touch with DOPs and recruiters), and virtually every response I've gotten could be paraphrased with the same general responses: "We don't have any positions that new grads would qualify for," "We no longer consider pharmacists without residency training for inpatient positions anymore, even if they have inpatient pharmacist work experience," etc. This was even the case for positions posted in "towns" like Barrow and Bethel, AK, which (according to the DOP I talked with) had actually received not one, but several applications from experienced pharmacists.

And for the record, this is the only account I've ever had on here. What sparked my interest in CS into overdrive on the forum is when pharmacy_sucks started providing more detailed information on CS jobs, the job market, the relatively brief educational pathways someone can pursue to obtain a career in CS, etc. I'd had sort of a fleeting interest in CS even prior to that, but I didn't seriously start considering it that it might be a viable "plan B" career until the realities of the pharmacy job market (and subsequently, what my actual job prospects would be) really hit home.

I'm definitely not an old bitter pharmacist who's trying to keep newcomers from competing in the job market. Based on what I've seen happening with the pharmacy division of the local hospital network, I wouldn't actually need to do anything to steer new grads away from pharmacy, as the hospital network's pharmacy admins seem to be doing a good enough job of that on their own. (For example, even though 7 out of the 10 grads of the hospital's residency program from last June haven't been able to find jobs, they chose to eliminate the weekend pharmacist position at the hospital I used to work at altogether, rather than offer it to one of their residency grads).

 

[Hedgehog32]

Go do whatever you think is right for you next. There are people here trying to give you recommendations but you continue to try to pick apart things not related to the bigger picture they are attempting to tell you.

No one will lose sleep over you personally changing careers. No one will lose sleep over you going to cs boot camp. No one will lose sleep over you never working a day in retail.

I personally do not feel bad for you and it feels more and more you are trying to get people to do that.

This is who I feel bad for: all the people on here, including me, that day in and day out try to make sure the people entering pharmacy school have a realistic understanding of what awaits after graduation. I feel bad because this just reinforces we still have a lot more work to do to prevent the flocks of people that feel the way you do.

So excuse me while I go cry. Not for you and your bad decisions but for myself because I’ve failed yet again.

No, I don't want anyone to feel bad for me; actually, for that matter, I don't give a $#!% what people think of my "plight," as all I'm concerned with is the pragmatic issue of starting my career. I do agree that efforts to educate prospective pharmacy students on the realities of the job market and what the vast majority of them have to look forward to upon graduation.

 

[mentos]

From what I recall (and to be fair, I need to review the thread again), your advice was to essentially keep applying to BFE inpatient positions until you get a favorable response on one. That's literally what I've been doing for months (not just applying, but actually getting in touch with DOPs and recruiters), and virtually every response I've gotten could be paraphrased with the same general responses: "We don't have any positions that new grads would qualify for," "We no longer consider pharmacists without residency training for inpatient positions anymore, even if they have inpatient pharmacist work experience," etc. This was even the case for positions posted in "towns" like Barrow and Bethel, AK, which (according to the DOP I talked with) had actually received not one, but several applications from experienced pharmacists.

And for the record, this is the only account I've ever had on here. What sparked my interest in CS into overdrive on the forum is when pharmacy_sucks started providing more detailed information on CS jobs, the job market, the relatively brief educational pathways someone can pursue to obtain a career in CS, etc. I'd had sort of a fleeting interest in CS even prior to that, but I didn't seriously start considering it that it might be a viable "plan B" career until the realities of the pharmacy job market (and subsequently, what my actual job prospects would be) really hit home.

I'm definitely not an old bitter pharmacist who's trying to keep newcomers from competing in the job market. Based on what I've seen happening with the pharmacy division of the local hospital network, I wouldn't actually need to do anything to steer new grads away from pharmacy, as the hospital network's pharmacy admins seem to be doing a good enough job of that on their own. (For example, even though 7 out of the 10 grads of the hospital's residency program from last June haven't been able to find jobs, they chose to eliminate the weekend pharmacist position at the hospital I used to work at altogether, rather than offer it to one of their residency grads).

Man every post of yours is a 1,000 word essay. You must have spent tons of time writing all these long responses. Did you not read this forum at all before you started pharmacy school?

We have been warning everyone about all of these things since well before 2016. I just don't understand how one could dedicate 200k and 4 years of their life and be so oblivious to the job market.

You could have gotten a CS degree this whole time and saved 150k or a boot camp 4 years ago and have 4 years work experience by now.

 

[Hedgehog32]

Man every post of yours is a 1,000 word essay. You must have spent tons of time writing all these long responses. Did you not read this forum at all before you started pharmacy school?

We have been warning everyone about all of these things since well before 2016. I just don't understand how one could dedicate 200k and 4 years of their life and be so oblivious to the job market.

You could have gotten a CS degree this whole time and saved 150k or a boot camp 4 years ago and have 4 years work experience by now.

I agree, I done goofed. It's a very painful thing to think about, but all I can do at this point is try and forge a path forward and maybe make use of the pharmacy degree in the future (perhaps working at a health-related startup?).

BTW, this is a random question, but would you happen to know the name of the cybersecurity position your sister holds? I'm just curious to see if it's one that a cybersecurity bootcamp grad would qualify for.

 

[TateThePharmacist]

From what I recall (and to be fair, I need to review the thread again), your advice was to essentially keep applying to BFE inpatient positions until you get a favorable response on one. That's literally what I've been doing for months (not just applying, but actually getting in touch with DOPs and recruiters), and virtually every response I've gotten could be paraphrased with the same general responses: "We don't have any positions that new grads would qualify for," "We no longer consider pharmacists without residency training for inpatient positions anymore, even if they have inpatient pharmacist work experience," etc. This was even the case for positions posted in "towns" like Barrow and Bethel, AK, which (according to the DOP I talked with) had actually received not one, but several applications from experienced pharmacists.

And for the record, this is the only account I've ever had on here. What sparked my interest in CS into overdrive on the forum is when pharmacy_sucks started providing more detailed information on CS jobs, the job market, the relatively brief educational pathways someone can pursue to obtain a career in CS, etc. I'd had sort of a fleeting interest in CS even prior to that, but I didn't seriously start considering it that it might be a viable "plan B" career until the realities of the pharmacy job market (and subsequently, what my actual job prospects would be) really hit home.

I'm definitely not an old bitter pharmacist who's trying to keep newcomers from competing in the job market. Based on what I've seen happening with the pharmacy division of the local hospital network, I wouldn't actually need to do anything to steer new grads away from pharmacy, as the hospital network's pharmacy admins seem to be doing a good enough job of that on their own. (For example, even though 7 out of the 10 grads of the hospital's residency program from last June haven't been able to find jobs, they chose to eliminate the weekend pharmacist position at the hospital I used to work at altogether, rather than offer it to one of their residency grads).

You haven't graduated yet and are not licensed yet, no inpatient position will offer you a job just yet. The job I currently have I applied for graduation week (as in a month from now for your timeline) and it took months after I got licensed to actually start working for them. And I know those sound like BFE, but those are decent sized towns for Alaska.
I'm also genuinely curious how you think the job market truly is for CS after only a bootcamp? I mean 3 months then a cushy six figure income in a metropolitan area? (These are literally things you've said) Really think that's how it is? Really think that wouldn't be saturated in a heartbeat? Even if it's not, think it'll stay like that for long? (Hint: it won't. Just look at pharmacy)

 

[Hedgehog32]

You haven't graduated yet and are not licensed yet, no inpatient position will offer you a job just yet. The job I currently have I applied for graduation week (as in a month from now for your timeline) and it took months after I got licensed to actually start working for them. And I know those sound like BFE, but those are decent sized towns for Alaska.
I'm also genuinely curious how you think the job market truly is for CS after only a bootcamp? I mean 3 months then a cushy six figure income in a metropolitan area? (These are literally things you've said) Really think that's how it is? Really think that wouldn't be saturated in a heartbeat? Even if it's not, think it'll stay like that for long? (Hint: it won't. Just look at pharmacy)

I agree that you'd think the CS job market would be extremely saturated by now, but I've done a lot of research on it (obviously don't want to make the same mistake twice) and that's somehow not the case. For the time being, there is still enough demand to accommodate job placement for the majority of bootcamp graduates.

Of course, the specific program attended matters, as some of them are relatively unknown and have unfavorable reputations. That's why I'm only focusing on applying to the most well-reputed bootcamp programs.

I don't think most bootcamp graduates are starting out at six figure salaries (as you questioned in your post). Most of the post-bootcamp employment data suggests that most graduates start out in the $70k-$80k range as junior developers and tend to be promoted or hired for higher-tier positions within 6-12 months. From what I've read, graduates who have more engineering expertise (such as with algorithms) command higher salaries.

There are also bootcamp programs in other tech professions like cybersecurity and data science that have really solid job placement numbers. Trying to figure out which program I want to pursue.

Also, when I say "metropolitans," I'm not necessarily referring to NY, SF, SD, Boston, etc. I'm just talking about medium-sized cities that aren't in the middle of nowhere and wouldn't fit the generic definition of BFE. For the record, though, there are bootcamp programs that actually place their graduates at top-tier tech companies like Google, Facebook, Apple, etc. However, after what I've witnessed in pharmacy, I'll be happy to get a job that pays around the average starting salary working for a company that won't make me stand 14 hours/day and live in BFE. If I get something better than that, then that would be great, but otherwise I'm keeping my expectations realistic.

 

[PharFromNormal]

No, I don't want anyone to feel bad for me; actually, for that matter, I don't give a $#!% what people think of my "plight," as all I'm concerned with is the pragmatic issue of starting my career. I do agree that efforts to educate prospective pharmacy students on the realities of the job market and what the vast majority of them have to look forward to upon graduation.

Once again arguing what isn’t the main point. Go find PAtoPharm or whatever his name was and be happy together. Maybe ask him what he did.

 

[mentos]

However, after what I've witnessed in pharmacy, I'll be happy to get a job that pays around the average starting salary working for a company that won't make me stand 14 hours/day and live in BFE.

Where do you see pharmacists working for 14 hours a day? That is definitely not the norm. The legal limit in my state is 12 hours and most don't even do that, they do 8-10 on average and some do even less.

 

[Hedgehog32]

Once again arguing what isn’t the main point. Go find PAtoPharm or whatever his name was and be happy together. Maybe ask him what he did.

PAtoPharm? Tell me there isn't someone who left a career as a PA to go to pharmacy school? If so, I would think they could at least get a job again as a PA if they haven't been out of the profession for too long.

 

[Hedgehog32]

Where do you see pharmacists working for 14 hours a day? That is definitely not the norm. The legal limit in my state is 12 hours and most don't even do that, they do 8-10 on average and some do even less.

I guess I should say 12-14. I've heard of CVS pharmacists putting in hours that long. Either way, even though my community rotation shifts didn't last that one, I still could barely walk by the end of most shifts.

 

[mentos]

I guess I should say 12-14. I've heard of CVS pharmacists putting in hours that long. Either way, even though my community rotation shifts didn't last that one, I still could barely walk by the end of most shifts.

So you've never actually seen a pharmacist work a 14 hour shift, it's just something you've heard yet you complain about 14 hour shifts as if it's the norm?

 

[Hedgehog32]

So you've never actually seen a pharmacist work a 14 hour shift, it's just something you've heard yet you complain about 14 hour shifts as if it's the norm?

No, I know of pharmacists in the southeast (GA and AL) who have literally worked those shifts. The ironic thing is, the pharmacists who work at a federal facility I rotated at acted like it was pharmacists' fault for letting the chains run over them ("they should've taken up for themselves"). Either way, regardless of whether it's 12 or 14 hours, you don't agree that it sucks to stand that long? Not to mention the lack of breaks, getting berated by customers, trying to meet unrealistic metric goals, phone ringing off the hook, trying to verify a huge backlog of prescriptions, a zillion things going on at once, etc.

That's why I haven't set the bar very high for my first job in CS/data science/cybersecurity. As long as it doesn't entail as miserable of a work day as chain retail pharmacy, I'll consider myself to be in a fortunate position.

 

[owlegrad]

I actually liked 14 hour days. You get more days off. What’s wrong with that?

 

[Hedgehog32]

I actually liked 14 hour days. You get more days off. What’s wrong with that?

For me, it's the fact that there's hardly any time left to do anything else during the day (besides the issue of standing for so long). Personally, my ideal schedule would be a 7 on/7 off nightshift position; you still have time to do other things (exercise, go out to eat, whatever) after work, and then there's the whole 7 days off to look forward to having. One of the hospitals I did a rotation at said they received well over 100 applications the last time they posted a 7 on/7 off nightshift job, so obviously I'm not the only one who sees the appeal.

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

I have to agree with owle, 12-13 hour shifts with more days off was actually a huge draw for me. Plus picking up an extra shift and having ~$700 added to my gross pay is pretty nice. Though I can see why others don't like it and 7 on/7 off night shift sounds awful to me.

To each their own I suppose.

Sent from my HD1925 using SDN mobile

 

[rxdawg21]

I'm not the OP, but I'll assume you're referring to me and my posts. When I started pharmacy school in 2016, it was still possible to get an inpatient staffing (I.e., dispensing/order entry) pharmacist job throughout much of the southeast if you were willing to be flexible about shift and location (like I said in a previous post, the guy who I replaced as an intern was offered a second shift position upon his graduation from pharmacy school). It seems to only have started to be the case within the past 1-2 years that now that residency completion is a requirement even for basic staffing jobs in rural towns. FWIW, none of the 3 pharmacists I worked with regularly back when I had my hospital intern job completed residencies.

That is because those that did residencies can’t find a job. Heck I know a PGY2 that staffs basic clinical at a rural town that had been out a year now. I continue to work with and see pharmacist make boneheaded residency choices due to wanting to live in a preferred town working in a high demand speciality (amcare) who are shocked when a job isn’t magically created for them. Or who have a job in an area 90 minutes from where they want to be that think doing a pgy2 will land them where they want to be. Instead of taking that same job they want after a pgy1 at a va and then getting board certified. A board certified bcacp pgy1 trained pharmacist doing the job > the pgy2 trainer fresh residency grad

 

[Hedgehog32]

That is because those that did residencies can’t find a job. Heck I know a PGY2 that staffs basic clinical at a rural town that had been out a year now. I continue to work with and see pharmacist make boneheaded residency choices due to wanting to live in a preferred town working in a high demand speciality (amcare) who are shocked when a job isn’t magically created for them. Or who have a job in an area 90 minutes from where they want to be that think doing a pgy2 will land them where they want to be. Instead of taking that same job they want after a pgy1 at a va and then getting board certified. A board certified bcacp pgy1 trained pharmacist doing the job > the pgy2 trainer fresh residency grad

Sounds like a lot of the people doing multiple years of residency maybe aren't considering the fact that regardless of however many extra years of training they complete, it doesn't change the fact that there are no open positions in the areas they want to live in (or maybe they subscribe to the "they'll want to create a position for someone with my qualifications" mindset). One of my preceptors said that a recent graduate of the PGY2 residency program at the hospital I used to intern at tried to find a job locally for 6 months before biting the bullet and applying for a pharmacist job at Walmart.

 

[owlegrad]

For me, it's the fact that there's hardly any time left to do anything else during the day (besides the issue of standing for so long). Personally, my ideal schedule would be a 7 on/7 off nightshift position; you still have time to do other things (exercise, go out to eat, whatever) after work, and then there's the whole 7 days off to look forward to having. One of the hospitals I did a rotation at said they received well over 100 applications the last time they posted a 7 on/7 off nightshift job, so obviously I'm not the only one who sees the appeal.

I loved that schedule when I had it.

 

[Hedgehog32]

I loved that schedule when I had it.

Doesn't hurt to dream...

 

[mentos]

I loved that schedule when I had it.

What's your schedule now? I thought you were overnight.

 

[owlegrad]

What's your schedule now? I thought you were overnight.

I wish! My place isn’t 24 hour. I have a crappy rotating schedule where I am nights one week and days the next. Work every third weekend.

 

[Timbo]

Anyways, I know you said that it's not necessarily true that working as a retail pharmacist always makes someone unhireable for hospital positions, but I can tell you that at the hospitals in my area, it does. This is coming directly from the DOP of the hospital system I used to work for as well as from pharmacists who work at the other hospital in town.

I'm curious why they think having retail experience is undesirable for their hospital positions? I understand wanting someone with hospital experience, but why is having other experiences a negative?