Liberty University DO school

[XCourtSmash]

Meh,

1) I'm not a fan of for-profit anything. Look at how well TLC turned out once it went from non-profit to for-profit.

2) Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer a doctor that understands the basic sciences vs someone who thinks diseases are a result of sin.

3) I digress before I get caught in the fire.

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[Telekinesis]

I find the "Sky is falling" rhetoric in this thread amusing lol

 

[darklabel]

I find the "Sky is falling" rhetoric in this thread amusing lol

The School of Osteopathic Medicine is expecting 140 students in its first year, growing to 600. The School of Health Sciences may eventually accommodate 5,000 students.

Source: http://www.liberty.edu/libertyjournal/?PID=24995&MID=53367

Anticipating 600 new graduates each year from just one school and no sign of adding on ANY residencies?

God I hope someone in SDN can move up in COCA and stop this madness....

 

[Mosonik]

Source: http://www.liberty.edu/libertyjournal/?PID=24995&MID=53367

Anticipating 600 new graduates each year from just one school and no sign of adding on ANY residencies?

God I hope someone in SDN can move up in COCA and stop this madness....

Agreed, not to mention Virginia's already crowded state of med programs. Interestingly, according to HHS (which NHSC programs are under) shows no qualifying/major shortages in the state.... huh.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Shoot it down now!

 

[SurgeDO]

Source: http://www.liberty.edu/libertyjournal/?PID=24995&MID=53367

Anticipating 600 new graduates each year from just one school and no sign of adding on ANY residencies?

God I hope someone in SDN can move up in COCA and stop this madness....

it makes me think the AOA and COCA know something that others do not. they are essentially a business, and there is no way to sustain their business model by increasing medical students without increasing residency slots.

as much as they make me want to pull my hair out with some of their decisions, it is impressive that the AOA is persevering with all the shenanigans they pull.

 

[GUH]

Source: http://www.liberty.edu/libertyjournal/?PID=24995&MID=53367

Anticipating 600 new graduates each year from just one school and no sign of adding on ANY residencies?

God I hope someone in SDN can move up in COCA and stop this madness....

"The School of Osteopathic Medicine is expecting 140 students in its first year, growing to 600."

I think this is more saying that the total medical student enrollment will grow to 600, not that each class will have 600 medical students.

 

[darklabel]

"The School of Osteopathic Medicine is expecting 140 students in its first year, growing to 600."

I think this is more saying that the total medical student enrollment will grow to 600, not that each class will have 600 medical students.

Yes, that would make more sense, but a class of 140 students (and JUST opening) is already unnecessarily large. Most of the new MD schools opened with a small class (~20 - 50) and then grows slowly and not anywhere near that number. Sorry, but a new medical school that already thinks they can adequately prepare that many students is ludicrous and as pointed out, does Virginia really have that much of a "shortage" of physicians to pump out so many at once?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Yes, that would make more sense, but a class of 140 students (and JUST opening) is already unnecessarily large. Most of the new MD schools opened with a small class (~20 - 50) and then grows slowly and not anywhere near that number. Sorry, but a new medical school that already thinks they can adequately prepare that many students is ludicrous and as pointed out, does Virginia really have that much of a "shortage" of physicians to pump out so many at once?

Sorry, but a school founded by a man who believed "AIDS was gods punishment" has no right to possess a medical school. It's time the AOA & COCA for once in its existence shows us that they mean to progress osteopathic medicine and not force its face into the dirt.

 

[darklabel]

Sorry, but a school founded by a man who believed "AIDS was gods punishment" has no right to possess a medical school. It's time the AOA & COCA for once in its existence shows us that they mean to progress osteopathic medicine and not force its face into the dirt.

Agreed, maybe when you graduate from DO school you look into joining the AOA and COCA and hopefully we can put an end to the silliness of opening up unnecessary med schools in crock pot schools.

Ladies and gentlemen, I would definitely try my best to apply to medical as soon as possible because with the number of DO schools opening and the # of residencies staying stagnant, we'd be lucky to even get FM in the future.

*End fear mongering/rant*

 

[user3]

UVa + VCU + EVMS + VCOM is more than enough.

 

[Mosonik]

Agreed, maybe when you graduate from DO school you look into joining the AOA and COCA and hopefully we can put an end to the silliness of opening up unnecessary med schools in crock pot schools.

Ladies and gentlemen, I would definitely try my best to apply to medical as soon as possible because with the number of DO schools opening and the # of residencies staying stagnant, we'd be lucky to even get FM in the future.

*End fear mongering/rant*

To be fair to COCA accreditation guidelines I believe reading somewhere that as of the last year all new proposed COM/SOMs are required to open up enough residency slots for a graduating class (even if part of a consortium) in order to be allowed to continue and receive full accreditation.

 

[DocVapor]

UVa + VCU + EVMS + VCOM is more than enough.

You forgot VTC.

Agreed about enough med students in VA.

 

[Balantidiumcoli]

Sorry, but a school founded by a man who believed "AIDS was gods punishment" has no right to possess a medical school. It's time the AOA & COCA for once in its existence shows us that they mean to progress osteopathic medicine and not force its face into the dirt.

Strange times we live in.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Does anyone know if this school is going through? It says they reached pre- accediation states, could COCA ever revoke that status?

 

[darklabel]

To be fair to COCA accreditation guidelines I believe reading somewhere that as of the last year all new proposed COM/SOMs are required to open up enough residency slots for a graduating class (even if part of a consortium) in order to be allowed to continue and receive full accreditation.

Not open up, just that they should have around 90 - 95% of the class matched into a residency.

Does anyone know if this school is going through? It says they reached pre- accediation states, could COCA ever revoke that status?

They can, but will they?

I doubt it. The future does look bleak for future Osteopathic students. Next thing you know, getting a residency will be as hard as getting into DO school, except now you'll be burdened with ~250k+ of debt.

 

[TriagePreMed]

Seriously, what an embarrassment to Osteopathic Medicine to have a school associated with this institution. COCA should be ashamed of itself. If they continue down this path, things will get ugly.

 

[EmergDoc2B]

Tobacco? Really? Wtf is going on. This almost seems like a prank (although it isnt obviously)

This school is to be funded by the master settlement agreement. Not BY big tobacco. I have no dog in ths fight just thought I'd point out that the tobacco industry isnt paying for the school the money they paid to virginia after losing in court IS.

DFS

 

[Mosonik]

Does anyone know if this school is going through? It says they reached pre- accediation states, could COCA ever revoke that status?

It's unlikely. Building has already begun of the institution and hiring faculty is a continuous process that started some time ago. I would expect barring any serious errors on the part of Liberty, recruitment will be granted and will occur at some point in the near future

 

[coolingglasses]

How bizarre.

 

[GypsyHummus]

I personally really dont see an issue with the school opening up. If there is a market for the service of training DOs, and there is a continual assurance that DOs will be able to get a residency, then what is the problem with opening up a Christian school, Non for profit or not? Apparently Marian COM is a Catholic school and they are doing things right according to this forum network.

 

[user3]

I personally really dont see an issue with the school opening up. If there is a market for the service of training DOs, and there is a continual assurance that DOs will be able to get a residency, then what is the problem with opening up a Christian school, Non for profit or not? Apparently Marian COM is a Catholic school and they are doing things right according to this forum network.

virginia is saturated with medical schools.

 

[deleted480308]

virginia is saturated with medical schools.

The geography is irrelevant, doctors move where there is work....so if the country needs doctors, and a school can train students to pass boards, thrn more power to them

 

[darklabel]

The geography is irrelevant, doctors move where there is work....so if the country needs doctors, and a school can train students to pass boards, thrn more power to them

I disagree, we have more of a distribution problem rather than a shortage.

Even if we have a shortage of physicians, realize there has already been a huge boom in the opening of new medical schools for both MD and DO. However, the # of residency spots has stagnated and I would not hold my breath on Congress passing anything useful.

So, more MD and DO schools, majority of residency spots are ACGME accredited while the number of current residencies from AOA covers ~ half of current DO students.

My point is: we don't need more medical schools. Last thing we need is the problem Law schools, Pharm schools and soon dental schools will have. And if we need medical schools, then we should focus on public institutions and hopefully have some with teaching hospitals attached/built.

 

[deleted480308]

But why force the public to foot the bill to build these new medical schools when private education is more than willing to do so?

 

[GypsyHummus]

I disagree, we have more of a distribution problem rather than a shortage.

Even if we have a shortage of physicians, realize there has already been a huge boom in the opening of new medical schools for both MD and DO. However, the # of residency spots has stagnated and I would not hold my breath on Congress passing anything useful.

So, more MD and DO schools, majority of residency spots are ACGME accredited while the number of current residencies from AOA covers ~ half of current DO students.

My point is: we don't need more medical schools. Last thing we need is the problem Law schools, Pharm schools and soon dental schools will have. And if we need medical schools, then we should focus on public institutions and hopefully have some with teaching hospitals attached/built.

but pharm students still get jobs. There is supposedly a physician "shortage"

 

[NontradCA]

But why force the public to foot the bill to build these new medical schools when private education is more than willing to do so?

Because the pubic wants the healthcare?

 

[darklabel]

But why force the public to foot the bill to build these new medical schools when private education is more than willing to do so?

There are still new MD schools popping up and more on the way from Public institutions. So why can't some of these be DO schools? As opposed to some Right wing, creationist school?

but pharm students still get jobs. There is supposedly a physician "shortage"

I cannot comment on this since I'm only going off from some of my PharmD friends saying that there are "Too many dang Pharmacy schools".

 

[swlabr1980]

You forgot VTC.

Agreed about enough med students in VA.

And King College is building an MD school in Abingdon, which will make seven medical schools in Virginia.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

The geography is irrelevant, doctors move where there is work....so if the country needs doctors, and a school can train students to pass boards, thrn more power to them

Do you really think that DMV students are honestly going to in any way move to the country? Get real.

 

[deleted480308]

Do you really think that DMV students are honestly going to in any way move to the country? Get real.

When there are enough docs to fill all the jobs in the city....yes, docs will move to the country

 

[Didierdrogba]

When there are enough docs to fill all the jobs in the city....yes, docs will move to the country

Wrong. As it is now, cities are over saturated with doctors, whereas underserved locations remain underserved. It's a sad phenomenon.

 

[deleted480308]

Wrong. As it is now, cities are over saturated with doctors, whereas underserved locations remain underserved. It's a sad phenomenon.

Saturation has not been reached until there are no more jobs in the cities for docs.....there doc/patient ration is much higher in the city than the county but when it finally saturates, those docs who can't get jobs in the city, will move to the country to pay their student loans

 

[FuzzyMemory]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep8MYANIv1Y

 

[GypsyHummus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep8MYANIv1Y

I hate this stuff. This left wing nut give all liberals a bad name: closed minded, snooty,arrogant. This liberal I'm better than you/intellectually more educated therefore a better person stuff needs to stop and they need to get over themselves.

 

[Didierdrogba]

I hate this stuff. This left wing nut give all liberals a bad name: closed minded, snooty,arrogant. This liberal I'm better than you/intellectually more educated therefore a better person stuff needs to stop and they need to get over themselves.

Yeah, gotta he is a little nuts

 

[TriagePreMed]

I hate this stuff. This left wing nut give all liberals a bad name: closed minded, snooty,arrogant. This liberal I'm better than you/intellectually more educated therefore a better person stuff needs to stop and they need to get over themselves.

Bill Maher only represents himself. so giving liberals a bad name is ridiculous. Besides, what did he say here that wasn't true? Anyone that's intellectually honest would say that Liberty and hacks like Glenn Beck are a bunch of bs. Being "open-minded" doesn't mean everything you hear you have to give some respect to. All that it means is that you're willing to listen and evaluate what is being said, so he's in no way close-minded. Yes, he may sound snotty and arrogant, but the truth is that stupidity doesn't deserve reverence.

 

[deleted480308]

Bill Maher only represents himself. so giving liberals a bad name is ridiculous. Besides, what did he say here that wasn't true? Anyone that's intellectually honest would say that Liberty and hacks like Glenn Beck are a bunch of bs. Being "open-minded" doesn't mean everything you hear you have to give some respect to. All that it means is that you're willing to listen and evaluate what is being said, so he's in no way close-minded. Yes, he may sound snotty and arrogant, but the truth is that stupidity doesn't deserve reverence.

To clarify, by stupidity you mean religious beliefs?

 

[user3]

but how is creationism wrong if God wrote the bible and therefore that story is true?

 

[TriagePreMed]

To clarify, by stupidity you mean religious beliefs?

If they are trying to exclude and ridicule established science and teach misinformation as if it were scientific fact instead of religion, yes.

 

[FuzzyMemory]

If the D.O school does indeed get established at LU, I wonder how they're going to teach certain subjects at the school like virology or immunology without mentioning evolutionary biology?

Are the students just not going to learn things like MRSA, bacteriology, or family/population genetics? That would be a disservice not only to the students, but to the profession and the public by training doctors without proper medical knowledge.

 

[Mattinthehat250]

If the D.O school does indeed get established at LU, I wonder how they're going to teach certain subjects at the school like virology or immunology without mentioning evolutionary biology?

Are the students just not going to learn things like MRSA, bacteriology, or family/population genetics? That would be a disservice not only to the students, but to the profession and the public by training doctors without proper medical knowledge.

To clarify there is microevolution and there is macroevolution. No creationist argues with microevolution, which is observable. What creationists don't agree with is macroevolution, which would have no practical influence on the practice of medicine. Subjects like virology and immunology, antibiotic resistance etc. has to do with microevolution, which again, creationists are not disputing.

 

[coolingglasses]

To clarify there is microevolution and there is macroevolution. No creationist argues with microevolution, which is observable. What creationists don't agree with is macroevolution, which would have no practical influence on the practice of medicine. Subjects like virology and immunology, antibiotic resistance etc. has to do with microevolution, which again, creationists are not disputing.

I was gonna say that, but you said it better.

 

[FuzzyMemory]

Macroevolution is just microevolution on a larger timescale, it's the same concept and principle. If they believe in microevolution, then why believe in creationism? Seems completely contradictory to me.

I would actually disagree in that understanding macroevolution plays a role in modern medicine. Just the other day, my dentist was explaining to me why I had to have my wisdom teeth pulled, and we had a chat about vestigial traits before he yanked them out . We could also go on about the transition from walking on four limbs to standing upright as the reason why childbirth poses a significant risk to mothers and the development of the pelvis. There's a whole view of pathology and disease based on mismatch between our environment and our bodies due to evolution. Really interesting read.

 

[Mattinthehat250]

Macroevolution is just microevolution on a larger timescale, it's the same concept and principle. If they believe in microevolution, then why believe in creationism? Seems completely contradictory to me.

I would actually disagree in that understanding macroevolution plays a role in modern medicine. Just the other day, my dentist was explaining to me why I had to have my wisdom teeth pulled, and we had a chat about vestigial traits before he yanked them out . We could also go on about the transition from walking on four limbs to standing upright as the reason why childbirth poses a significant risk to mothers and the development of the pelvis. There's a whole view of pathology and disease based on mismatch between our environment and our bodies due to evolution. Really interesting read.

Because of irreducible complexity. Also, as I said, microevolution is observable.

Interesting, I'm not a medical student yet so I'm sure I'll learn more about this in the coming years. But, from my perspective, it seems that your dentist's decision to pull the wisdom teeth wouldn't have been changed if his beliefs on evolution were different, since it was the appropriate therapy. I can't think of any situation where clinical decision making would be changed based on a person's beliefs on macroevolution, but again I'm not a medical student, so I can't think of many clinical situations to begin with.

 

[Didierdrogba]

Because of irreducible complexity. Also, as I said, microevolution is observable.

You know it is BS, right? It's been debunked too many times already.

Nowadays, of all countries in the world, only the USA still has a sizable creationist support. This kind of stuff is not accepted by international academia, and it is seen as more of a political as opposed to scientific debate specific to the united states..

 

[Mattinthehat250]

You know it is BS, right? It's been debunked too many times already.

Nowadays, of all countries in the world, only the USA still has a sizable creationist support. This kind of stuff is not accepted by international academia, and it is seen as more of a political as opposed to scientific debate. And having a creationist school teach osteopathic medicine will probably inevitably give all DO's a bad name.

I haven't heard any convincing argument against it, though I haven't researched this topic as much as I should.

 

[Didierdrogba]

I haven't heard any convincing argument against it, though I haven't researched this topic as much as I should.

knock yourself out

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity#Response_of_the_scientific_community

 

[deleted480308]

It seems like some of you imagine a scenario where a doctor would be so wrapped up in creationism that they couldn't read an mri, or hold their scalpel properly or take a patient history. The view on the origin of man has no reflection on the daily tasks of a physician.

 

[GypsyHummus]

It seems like some of you imagine a scenario where a doctor would be so wrapped up in creationism that they couldn't read an mri, or hold their scalpel properly or take a patient history. The view on the origin of man has no reflection on the daily tasks of a physician.

I agree with this.