Accepted students: what are your summer plans?

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DVMDream said:
I don't believe animals are mass produced unnecessarily. Yes, we do have food wasted, but you have to recall that we can't predict outcomes of offspring. There has to be a certain amount of "oversupply" if you will to be ready for losses. Also there are different purposes for male vs female animals, more so in dairy than the beef industry but to some degree in both industries. And we can't "predict" gender. Well, at least not for cheap we can't. There is a way to purchase semen separated by gender, but that is more $$.

You can't just go "we think we need x number of animals let's produce x". There are way too many factors into what can completely obliterate a farm or operation and have a severe impact on food availability.

Take the most recent bird flu that swept through the midwest, both poultry and egg production took a massive hit.... it affected food supply significantly and increased prices of eggs/poultry...

http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2015/05/07/bird-flu-1/

A lot of mass production takes into account that at any moment a disease can sweep through and wipe out an entire farm or more.
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But see that's the thing, disease is far less likely if animal production was decreased. Additionally, there is a lot of evidence that factory farms have a negative impact on the environment and also that we are consuming more meat than needed. I am willing to sacrifice price for healthier meat made in humane conditions. I say healthier because stress has an effect on meat quality and also the less likely use of antibiotics if fewer animals were produced. Also, the amount of grains fed to our food animals can feed many more people who wouldn't otherwise have food.
 
WildAnimal said:
But see that's the thing, disease is far less likely if animal production was decreased. Additionally, there is a lot of evidence that factory farms have a negative impact on the environment and also that we are consuming more meat than needed. I am willing to sacrifice price for healthier meat made in humane conditions. I say healthier because stress has an effect on meat quality and also the less likely use of antibiotics if fewer animals were produced. Also, the amount of grains fed to our food animals can feed many more people who wouldn't otherwise have food.
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Animal concentration and healthcare would absolutely have effects on disease, but total number of animals produced would not as far as I can see. Semantics maybe. However, total number would still affect the environmental issues you mention.

I think addressing the problem of food waste would be much more efficient coming from the post-slaughter side, not the pre-slaughter side.

Wasn't there a chain of restaurants in Japan or something a while back that would "fine" customers who ordered big plates of food but didn't finish them?

Also, the grain argument is not that simple, because large components of grain-based animal food are made from either part of the grain inedible or only partially edible to humans or flat-out byproducts.
 
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Tbeezer12 said:
Also, since when are veterinarians not allowed to be for animals rights AND animal welfare? I see no harm in advocating for less hunting, being vegetarian/vegan, etc. as a veterinarian. I realize plenty of successful vets hunt and "use the entire animal for their family" to make themselves feel better about killing an animal, but that doesn't mean I have to support that way of thinking or refrain from making a comment about it.
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To me, animal welfare is that humans control absolutely everything about an animal's/group of animals' lives. Animal rights aims to take plenty (if not all) of those controls away. Therefore, they are mutually exclusive in my mind. As to the bolded, hunters don't say this because it makes them feel better, they say it because it is respectful to the animal (which came from Native American cultures primarily where I live). Do you think the multitudes of Native American cultures were for animal welfare or rights? I bet that's a pretty easy answer.

Tbeezer12 said:
The point of what I just said is that my previous statements on this thread were not just me being quick to talk badly about others. I've experienced the difficulties of the profession already and I'm still amazed at how little some people (even veterinarians) seem to care about animals that they aren't seeing as clients. Overall, it's just sad that many of the people that replied to my comment are just as ignorant towards how we treat animals in society.
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I want to point out there is a point where you can't care any more than you already do. Otherwise, you go through compassion fatigue of the highest order, you burn out, and then you reach rock bottom. Rock bottom can be anywhere from leaving the profession to suicide. You were exclusively talking poorly of others and judging them over stating your piece in an educated manner. Many of us come from a variety of backgrounds that could run circles around you on information. Want to PM about pet stores? That's what my family has done for 110 years this July. Pretty sure I know things you'd never had known before simply because of my experience. Likewise, we have ranchers who have raised cattle in families for generations that care more about their cattle than you do; not to mention their rodeo animals that get treated better than my dogs. What about the researchers that experiment on animals? Of course the veterinarians who work with them care. If those animals are mistreated, they get crappy results. More over, most people do have a conscience and aren't sociopaths (like you're suggesting).

Tbeezer12 said:
Why would I care about making friends with a handful of randos on the Internet that clearly don't care all that much about animals in the first place? Is that really something I should care about? Clearly I have a completely different way of thinking about animals as many of you do, so I guess I'll keep my "unfriendly" comments to myself now. Enjoy your venison and animal suffering.
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Rudest thing you said to all of us on this thread. As others said, you don't know how many puppies we've cradled as they died of parvo. You don't know how many of us have calmed a heifer as she gave birth to a stillborn calf. You don't know us.

hazelmoo said:
I don't like rodeos and horse racing but I understand why people are involved. Calf roping makes me sad, only because that animal is feeling fear (and probably pain) for sport.
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If you're ever in my neck of the woods, I'll take you to a rodeo and let you talk to the ranchers/riders/etc. It'll give you a whole different perspective. 🙂

Tbeezer said:
I really wanted to be done with this thread but your comment was too perfect to not respond to. I've been in the field of veterinary medicine for over 10 years (non-traditional student), so I personally feel like I do have a pretty good understanding of what it's like and the difficulties that come along with being a veterinarian. Additionally, my comments were not even close to being as ignorant as yours were, so I can't really take someone as hypocritical as you very seriously. I made a comment about what one person said and it turned into multiple people freaking out. In the future (in vet school and beyond), I will have no problem advocating for animals in the way the I see fit, even if it goes against the thinking process that people like you have. Finally, nothing about my account can tie to who I actually am, so your pathetic threats of finding out who I am are falling on deaf ears.
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Working as a tech or assistant isn't anything like working as a vet. It's like saying working as a nurse tells you what it's like to be a doctor. Want to point out that I know of at least 6 or 7 people who found me on Facebook. That's all they needed to know and they know who I am in real life. Granted, it's probably easier to find me than most people (sneaky user name, I have 😉 ), but it's certainly not impossible.

Tbeezer said:
Kid? Being a 32 year old vet tech in the field for over 10 years = I'm a kid? How are the apparently ignorant comments I made previously any different from the ones you all are making now? Also, I'm not a "him." Great job assuming I'm a guy based off of my comments.
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If you ever work retail, you'll see that middle age women are the most immature people around. I'd rather work with teenagers than a middle age woman.

dyachei said:
Those same groups have actually been found to have been euthanizing more dogs and cats than other shelters because pet ownership is "slavery".
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Can anyone say PETA? lol.

WildAnimal said:
As far as food animals, my main beef with the industry (pun intended) is mass production of animals unnecessarily. Too much food is produced and wasted, or it's consumed but does not need to be (obesity epidemic). A humane amount of space could be achieved without compromising health if society consumed only what was necessary. Now I realize that's more of a societal problem than an issue for the industry, but if they only produced as much as they could that provided the animals with humane living conditions without negatively impacting health, I would prefer to see it.
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I say this is definitely society's problem and not the industry's. Look at our food waste laws. It's becoming harder and harder for "older" food to be considered "fine" and sellable. Subways can't even donate their left over bread at the end of the day because some states make it too difficult. Moreover, the eating thing is the big problem in this country. If people ate less as a whole, a lot of problems would be on their way to being fixed.
 
WildAnimal said:
But see that's the thing, disease is far less likely if animal production was decreased. Additionally, there is a lot of evidence that factory farms have a negative impact on the environment and also that we are consuming more meat than needed. I am willing to sacrifice price for healthier meat made in humane conditions. I say healthier because stress has an effect on meat quality and also the less likely use of antibiotics if fewer animals were produced. Also, the amount of grains fed to our food animals can feed many more people who wouldn't otherwise have food.
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1. Large scale production of vegetation that would be needed to replace the meat would have more of an impact on the environment.
2. We can't eat the grain that cattle eat and survive. We would need a large and giant variety of different types of grains and vegetables to be able to survive without meat. Food animals turn that grain that is very low yield nutritionally for us into something that is nutritious and can feed us.
3. Yes, stress does affect quality of meat that is why farmers do their best to reduce stress.
4. Decreasing production does not decrease disease.
5. I am glad you are willing to sacrifice price, but what the single mother of 5 children who is out of a job? What about the 48 million Americans who live in "food insecure" homes? Hunger is a very real problem right here in the United States, raising prices of food because you can afford it is a giant oversight of a much bigger problem.
 
WhtsThFrequency said:
Animal concentration and healthcare would absolutely have effects on disease, but total number of animals produced would not as far as I can see. Semantics maybe. However, total number would still affect the environmental issues you mention.

I think addressing the problem of food waste would be much more efficient coming from the post-slaughter side, not the pre-slaughter side.

Wasn't there a chain of restaurants in Japan or something a while back that would "fine" customers who ordered big plates of food but didn't finish them?
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Maybe you're right. I suppose I was just looking at is as if total number was fewer than you can decrease concentration, which should have a positive effect.
 
WildAnimal said:
Maybe you're right. I suppose I was just looking at is as if total number was fewer than you can decrease concentration, which should have a positive effect.
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Depends on the type of animal and how much more space are you giving them. Are you increasing the amount of pasture they get too? Because that would increase problems with parasite control.
 
DVMDream said:
1. Large scale production of vegetation that would be needed to replace the meat would have more of an impact on the environment.
2. We can't eat the grain that cattle eat and survive. We would need a large and giant variety of different types of grains and vegetables to be able to survive without meat. Food animals turn that grain that is very low yield nutritionally for us into something that is nutritious and can feed us.
3. Yes, stress does affect quality of meat that is why farmers do their best to reduce stress.
4. Decreasing production does not decrease disease.
5. I am glad you are willing to sacrifice price, but what the single mother of 5 children who is out of a job? What about the 48 million Americans who live in "food insecure" homes? Hunger is a very real problem right here in the United States, raising prices of food because you can afford it is a giant oversight of a much bigger problem.
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Or poor vet students/interns/residents. 😉
 
Also, you may or may not already realize this, but there are no antibiotics in meat. All medications given to any animal that will be used for consumption by humans have a withdrawal period. So that animal can not be slaughtered or milked (for certain drugs) for x number of days after the medication has been given. If any meat or milk is found to have antibiotic residues left within it (they are tested) the farmer is fined and the meat/milk condemned.
 
DVMDream said:
1. Large scale production of vegetation that would be needed to replace the meat would have more of an impact on the environment.
2. We can't eat the grain that cattle eat and survive. We would need a large and giant variety of different types of grains and vegetables to be able to survive without meat. Food animals turn that grain that is very low yield nutritionally for us into something that is nutritious and can feed us.
3. Yes, stress does affect quality of meat that is why farmers do their best to reduce stress.
4. Decreasing production does not decrease disease.
5. I am glad you are willing to sacrifice price, but what the single mother of 5 children who is out of a job? What about the 48 million Americans who live in "food insecure" homes? Hunger is a very real problem right here in the United States, raising prices of food because you can afford it is a giant oversight of a much bigger problem.
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Agree with the last, however I'm also in favor of welfare programs that feed families and would like to see them receive meat that is more beneficial to them. And I'm still learning in this area but I was reading about the "crap" diets of mass produced food animals, being fed what humans can eat and in turn taking food from people to produce low quality meat. I am glad you are saying otherwise, and it has reminded me to look into it more as I haven't done research on this discussion in a very long time.
 
DVMDream said:
Also, you may or may not already realize this, but there are no antibiotics in meat. All medications given to any animal that will be used for consumption by humans have a withdrawal period. So that animal can not be slaughtered or milked (for certain drugs) for x number of days after the medication has been given. If any meat or milk is found to have antibiotic residues left within it (they are tested) the farmer is fined and the meat/milk condemned.
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Yep, but antibiotics do take a toll on the animal's normal flora which is essential for health. However, the pros of use outweigh the cons so I'm not against their use. Using less is always better if possible, though.
 
WildAnimal said:
Agree with the last, however I'm also in favor of welfare programs that feed families and would like to see them receive meat that is more beneficial to them. And I'm still learning in this area but I was reading about the "crap" diets of mass produced food animals, being fed what humans can eat and in turn taking food from people to produce low quality meat. I am glad you are saying otherwise, and it has reminded me to look into it more as I haven't done research on this discussion in a very long time.
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The very limited grains that are given to cattle for food can be used by humans, but what people don't realize is that we aren't tossing all of the grain humans use to cattle. In general, humans don't really need grain... things like barely. Nope.

Cattle can be fed corn too, but there is no shortage of corn and humans can't exist off corn.

It is a bit of a sloppy argument (not by you, you are just going off what you have heard) to state that we are feeding cattle what we could eat and survive off of. While, yes, we technically could eat it, we could not survive off what cattle are fed. There would be severe nutritional deficiencies.
 
WildAnimal said:
Yep, but antibiotics do take a toll on the animal's normal flora which is essential for health. However, the pros of use outweigh the cons so I'm not against their use. Using less is always better if possible, though.
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Nobody disagrees that using the least amount of antibiotics possible is for the best. Farmers know this. Farmers understand antibiotic resistance better than people think. Also, if they treat an animal for something that means they have to feed and care for that animal for "x" number of days before it can go to slaughter. So they also want to use antibiotics as low as possible, especially if an animal is about to go to slaughter. It costs to keep feeding an animal and caring for it, so they really don't want to be injecting a cow with antibiotics unless it is really necessary.
 
DVMDream said:
The very limited grains that are given to cattle for food can be used by humans, but what people don't realize is that we aren't tossing all of the grain humans use to cattle. In general, humans don't really need grain... things like barely. Nope.

Cattle can be fed corn too, but there is no shortage of corn and humans can't exist off corn.

It is a bit of a sloppy argument (not by you, you are just going off what you have heard) to state that we are feeding cattle what we could eat and survive off of. While, yes, we technically could eat it, we could not survive off what cattle are fed. There would be severe nutritional deficiencies.
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Good to know. Nutrition is absolutely not my forte.
 
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DVMDream said:
The very limited grains that are given to cattle for food can be used by humans, but what people don't realize is that we aren't tossing all of the grain humans use to cattle. In general, humans don't really need grain... things like barely. Nope.

Cattle can be fed corn too, but there is no shortage of corn and humans can't exist off corn.

It is a bit of a sloppy argument (not by you, you are just going off what you have heard) to state that we are feeding cattle what we could eat and survive off of. While, yes, we technically could eat it, we could not survive off what cattle are fed. There would be severe nutritional deficiencies.
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It's the type of stuff that is thrown around a LOT on the internet, sometimes by well–intentioned people and other times by...less than well–intentioned people (PETA and the like). I learned a LOT from my foodie colleagues in vet school that changed several of my previous ideas about the food industry. Of course, there are still areas I take significant issue with (poultry production especially), but I think the takeaway here is that having open discussion about it leads to more education on the topic. I'm glad WA isn't pulling a doubledown but actually seems interested in learning.
 
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WhtsThFrequency said:
It's the type of stuff that is thrown around a LOT on the internet, sometimes by well–intentioned people and other times by...less than well–intentioned people (PETA and the like). I learned a LOT from my foodie colleagues in vet school that changed several of my previous ideas about the food industry. Of course, there are still areas where I take significant issue with (poultry production especially), but I think the takeaway here is that having open discussion about it leads to more education on the topic. I'm glad WA isn't pulling a doubledown but actually seems interested in learning.
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Yes, I am too. WA has been very pleasant to discuss this with, it makes the discussion much easier and much nicer to have. 🙂
 
WildAnimal said:
Yep, but antibiotics do take a toll on the animal's normal flora which is essential for health. However, the pros of use outweigh the cons so I'm not against their use. Using less is always better if possible, though.
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the general public seems to think that antibiotics are thrown at every cow for a variety of reasons. this typically isn't the case and we have new laws requiring veterinarians to prescribe them instead of allowing it to be bought at the feed store.
 
Tbeezer12 said:
For everyone that was also quick to judge the comment I made, I was mostly annoyed by the statement above. I'm not a "militant vegan" or against hunting for population control (although I feel like culling is a "too simple" response, but w/e). Imo, being a veterinarian should be looked at as helping all animals and hunting for sport and "shooting as many birds as possible" is just that, sport. Not population control. This is how the wolves were wiped out of Michigan and how plenty of other species worldwide are going extinct.

Also, since when are veterinarians not allowed to be for animals rights AND animal welfare? I see no harm in advocating for less hunting, being vegetarian/vegan, etc. as a veterinarian. I realize plenty of successful vets hunt and "use the entire animal for their family" to make themselves feel better about killing an animal, but that doesn't mean I have to support that way of thinking or refrain from making a comment about it.



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Even though I'm kinda late...

You say we're ignorant, yet make a statement about wolves in Michigan (and are implying you know what you're talking about while doing so) that is flat out incorrect. Message me if you'd like to know more about the predator-prey mess this state is in. 'Sport hunting' IS NOT why they were wiped out. There is a huge difference between hunting for sport/fun and hunting to protect your property/livestock/livelihood.
 
cat%20-%20i%20love%20this%20thread%20so%20much-2.jpg
 
Caiter92 said:
I'm not trying to get ripped or even lose weight, but I am trying to get back in the habit of running 3-4x a week. It was going well until three weeks ago when I get sick.

I have my next half in June though, so I really need to get the habit down again soon haha
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I was doing this as well and I have a 10k in April that I will be so unprepared for...it's been 2 weeks since the last time I ran
 
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I love running and wanted to start doing races but I am so behind now because I had surgery and wasn't allowed to workout for weeks. Its so annoying! Now I've gained some weight and I feel so out of shape lol


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I used to run cross country and track, and I actually really enjoyed it. Since undergrad started, though, I've gained a good amount of weight and haven't been running hardly at all.

One of the things I plan on working on before vet school is getting back on track with a halfway decent running routine. That, and fixing my admittedly terrible diet... I wonder how much weight I could lose just by cutting out all the soda... quite a lot, I'd imagine. I guess that'd be the first step. 😳
 
I started running my first year of college. One day I was like, "I want to run a half marathon," which was hilarious because I had always hated running :laugh: Some how I actually stuck with it, and my first three years of college I ran a ton. Then my last year when I moved home and was commuting, it was really hard to find time, since I was gone 6 am to 7pm with the bus or work.

Since then it's been pretty sporadic, but I really want to get back in the habit long term again because it helps so much with my sleeping habits and stress.
 
twelvetigers said:
You're the one acting like a giant turd. Keep the snark to yourself (not your opinions, note - just the snotty comments that accompany them) or don't let the metaphorical door hit your butt on the way out.
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Haven't seen you so fired up in a while!

So many special people in this world that fall into this profession. Thankfully the turdnuggets usually mellow out by clinics as vet school breaks the spirits of virtually every student that goes through it.


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twelvetigers said:
You ain't seen nothin.

Accept my FB friend request! 😛
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I totally did last week!

I get a lot of random Facebook requests I ignore, so when I got yours and didn't see colorful hair, i was like huh ...

But then I did a quick lookie, and went:

Graduation gown pic - check!
Purple hair - check!


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DVMDream said:
The very limited grains that are given to cattle for food can be used by humans, but what people don't realize is that we aren't tossing all of the grain humans use to cattle. In general, humans don't really need grain... things like barely. Nope.

Cattle can be fed corn too, but there is no shortage of corn and humans can't exist off corn.

It is a bit of a sloppy argument (not by you, you are just going off what you have heard) to state that we are feeding cattle what we could eat and survive off of. While, yes, we technically could eat it, we could not survive off what cattle are fed. There would be severe nutritional deficiencies.
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Hooray, this is in my area. The argument that cattle and humans compete for food is actually a myth. What DVMDream said is true. The amount of a, lets say, dairy ration that is edible by humans is usually less than 20% give or take. This includes things like high moisture corn and supplements. Ruminants are extremely efficient at turning inedible forage into products. Humans cannot digest things like soybean hulls, sybean meal, and barley. Additionally, cows also can live off of byproduct meal made from processes like ethanol, beer, and spirit production. Producing human edible foods actually creates an equal or greater amount of inedible byproducts that are fed to livestock. Take soybean processing as an example. Humans typically use the oil which is only 18% of the plant and the rest is inedible products like meal and hulls. This is true for most of the ingredients in ruminant diets. As for corn, the US produces well over enough corn for humans and livestock and even has enough to export to places like China.

As for antibiotics, cows that are used for meat or milk have a certain withdrawal time after being administered antibiotics, meaning that no products can be used during this time. It is law that no antibiotics are in animal products. This would create a huge problem with resistance. Typically on a dairy farm, we only use antibiotics for things like severe mastitis, retained placenta, etc. Then we withhold the milk for the number of days the label instructs. There is a cost to using antibiotics so it is typically used only when absolutely necessary.
 
I'm going to Belize to do wildlife rehabilitation work for a month! Signed up to do it so I would have something to look forward to whether or not I got in to vet school! Then I'm just relaxing and taking it easy for the rest of summer before school starts
 
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battie said:
I volunteered for a deer check station (extra credit in mammalogy) and one hunter who brought in a 3 year old doe said he found about a dozen dead deer down a ravine that died from CWD. Most disgusting corpses he said he ever saw.
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Yeah, this is comparable to BSE. Unfortunately, I have seen a cow with this horrible disease and you cannot help but feel sympathy for the deer that have to die from it. It is a terrible way to go.
 
Ick prions :dead:

We've been shed hunting the last few weekends here & have found a large number of corpses, yet no sheds. Either there are a lot of dead deer out there (inspite of the mild winter) or I just have a cadaver dog & not a shed dog.
 
last_rnd said:
Ick prions :dead:

We've been shed hunting the last few weekends here & have found a large number of corpses, yet no sheds. Either there are a lot of dead deer out there (inspite of the mild winter) or I just have a cadaver dog & not a shed dog.
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Went out looking for shed antlers for hours this past weekend and came out with nothing 🙁
 
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