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Hello, I am applying and wondering if there are any MD or DO schools that should be avoided in any of your opinions? And why? I know new schools are risky - are there any exceptions this year?

Sorry, I keep searching for this and can’t find any threads on it. I understand this will be largely subjective, but hoping for some opinions - especially from current medical students. Thank you!
 
Aug 6, 2020
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From what I've researched on this forum (that aren't new schools)...Ponce for MD and LMU-DCOM for DO

Loma linda and Liberty due to stringent religious conduct rules (unless you're cool with it)

CNU (MD) and Rocky Vista (DO) are for profit schools, but I haven't heard/seen anything out of the ordinary otherwise. Always nice if any students can chime in!

I'm sure plenty of people may say "any school not Caribbean is worth it", however.
 
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@Goro has a bad boy DO list including MSUCOM, UIW, CHSU, etc.
-IMO, newer schools will be less established, in general (hectic rotations, no attached residencies, trying out new professors, etc)
-No Caribbean
-Lots of people have beef with for-profit schools like CNU (MD) and RVU (DO)
 
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Goro

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Hello, I am applying and wondering if there are any MD or DO schools that should be avoided in any of your opinions? And why? I know new schools are risky - are there any exceptions this year?

Sorry, I keep searching for this and can’t find any threads on it. I understand this will be largely subjective, but hoping for some opinions - especially from current medical students. Thank you!
I can’t recommend Penn State given how their parent body protected a child molester for decades.
I can't recommend CNU, for reasons posted in other threads. Do a search.

Of DO schools, . I can't recommend Nova, BCOM, ICOM and LUCOM, for different reasons. MSUCOM? Read up on Larry Nasser and you decide. LMU has an accreditation warning, which concerns me. CUHS is too new and appears to be too limited in rotations sites. UIW refuses to post their Boards scores, which is fishy.

Here's why:
Nova: Two of the four last years have declining first-time COMLEX pass rates. The last two years for which we have data are in the low 90s. They still have yet to post data for the 2019-20 cycle, which is fishy. Some 7% of their 2018 grads failed to match, ditto 4% of their Class of 2019. There are also signs of significant delay to graduation in these numbers. That’s still not good for a veteran school. I’d expect > 95% pass rates and match rates closer to 100%. These problems are you expect from a new school. Something is very wrong there. See: Residency Match Data and COMLEX Level 3 Board Scores | NSU COM


LUCOM: I have a profound distaste for the politics of their parent organization; they’re disingenuous about whether their strict lifestyle rules apply to medical students (they do); and their Faculty make blatant attempts to twist facts to match their theology. In the midst of the COVID19 pandemic, Liberty president Jerry Falwell Jr insisted that the campus stay open! This was in violation of state lawBlack Liberty University alums rebuke Jerry Falwell after blackface tweet

And read this, while you’re at it:
Liberty University Poured Millions Into Sports. Now Its Black Athletes Are Leaving.

From the wise gyngyn: Liberty is poorly regarded due to the history of intolerance of their founding fathers. This school's reputation for intolerance puts its grads at a disadvantage at many reputable residency programs.


LMU: granted continuing Accreditation with Heightened Monitoring. “Accreditation with Heightened Monitoring: This indicates that fewer than three standards are non-compliant and ongoing monitoring will occur via progress reporting. For schools with this status, accreditation will be granted for four years.”

This is only one of three COMs that has this level of accreditation status right now.
Accreditation decisions for colleges of osteopathic medicine - American Osteopathic Association

On top of this, the administration of the parent body fired a dean for supporting social justice and racial equality.
Their position is: On August 14th, the President of LMU emailed new student policy that states “You are not allowed to be involved in any form of public statement about social justice and racial inequities in medicine in any prominent location on the LMU campus”."


BCOM: COMLEX pass rates are a disaster, even for a new school. In my own school's experience, people who fail the exam will almost always pass the second time around. Yet some 9% of BCOM's second class still couldn't pass on the second try. These are people who are now far less likely to ever become doctors. Their inaugural Class of 2020 has had a 25% attrition rate (160 down to ~120).

Also this: granted Accreditation with Heightened Monitoring. This indicates that fewer than three standards are non-compliant and ongoing monitoring will occur via progress reporting. For schools with this status, accreditation will be granted for four years. This is only one of three COMs that has this level of accreditation status right now.
Accreditation decisions for colleges of osteopathic medicine - American Osteopathic Association


ICOM: Not recommended due to the apparent dishonesty they had in setting up their school that poisoned the relations with hospitals in Idaho and/or the Idaho Medical Association. In addition, most of their rotation sites are very far away from the school. This raises the risk that the rotations are not adequately supervised and preceptors are not fully trained in teaching. And they have the nerve to give you only 48 hours to decide upon submitting a $1500 deposit!

Brand new DO schools are to be avoided (unless it’s your only accept) until they at least graduate a class. It takes time for faculty to gel and deliver a coherent curriculum; they have limited clinical rotations sites [it takes time to build these!], the degree of oversight of clinical training will be weak; the schools are unlikely to have resources for struggling students or those with mental health needs; lastly their grads will be unknown products to residency program directors.
 
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Ultravox Vienna

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What about Drexel? I've seen some negative stances towards them on here

Edit: Not to "avoid" but rather just watch out for i guess
 
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ciestar

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Yeah I'm curious about this too! Why does everyone hate on Drexel? Is it because of the whole Hahneman situation?
It predates Hahnemann but that sure didn’t help.
 
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We had a great match with my class including someone at NYP. We did just fine.

Yeah, we dont have a dedicated teaching hospital but it isn’t like most of us were rotating there at any given time anyway. A bigger problem now is that many rotations are further outside of Philly which is a drawback. Either way, we rotated at many community hospitals but all (or almost all?) of your core rotations are with residents.

I’ll add that at the end of the day... it’s a USMD school. If end up there, you’ll make out just fine in the end. Yeah, many of us our only acceptance was to Drexel (but look at the stats about how many people only ever get one acceptance) but we’re all doctors now.
 
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@goros criticisms of PSU and MSU could easily also apply to USC Keck SOM given their history with Tyndall, Pulafito, and the recent issues with their cardiology program. Yet, they continue to thrive and prosper. Just goes to show the difficulty of holding an entire institution responsible for the actions of one or a few individuals.
 
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cw2013

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I thought "most" of the criticism was towards LECOM B, for their (apparently shocking) rotations?

I think both campuses get it. Which I get not liking their rules, but they're basically giving you a 50% discount to wear a tie for 2 years. But yeah the rotations at LECOM B are supposedly bad. I think they've made it better but I can't really speak to it as I go up north.

**Edit: I haven't been on this site really much in the last year and half so I don't know if the conversation has changed in that time.
 
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@goros criticisms of PSU and MSU could easily also apply to USC Keck SOM given their history with Tyndall, Pulafito, and the recent issues with their cardiology program. Yet, they continue to thrive and prosper. Just goes to show the difficulty of holding an entire institution responsible for the actions of one or a few individuals.
Or, even more importantly, limiting your own opportunities as a result, as though any of these schools are any worse off because anyone avoids applying to "punish" them for the negligence or worse of their administrations.

Of course, everyone has to make their own decisions, but, in the words of a wise adcom, do you want a MD or a T20 MD? Maybe the question should be, do you want to be a Dr, or a non-PSU/MSU/any other school on the bad boy list Dr? Some lucky people have the luxury to be that picky, others don't, and might have to take additional gap years or make other career choices in order to have such high standards.
 
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Or, even more importantly, limiting your own opportunities as a result, as though any of these schools are any worse off because anyone avoids applying to "punish" them for the negligence or worse of their administrations.

Of course, everyone has to make their own decisions, but, in the words of a wise adcom, do you want a MD or a T20 MD? Maybe the question should be, do you want to be a Dr, or a non-PSU/MSU/any other school on the bad boy list Dr? Some lucky people have the luxury to be that picky, others don't, and might have to take additional gap years or make other career choices in order to have such high standards.

Hence why @Goro states these are recommendations - he didn't say absolutely don't apply there. Some of us choose to limit our applications to institutions we can be proud to call our alma mater in the future. Simultaneously, it is understandable if someone includes PSU and MSU on their school lists to apply broadly or for other reasons.
 
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PSU is my top choice...I agree with a lot of Goro's opinions but I can't say I align with the "actions of one from the undergrad" ideal. At least it isn't like LUCOM, where the conduct rules are reflective of the main campus administration.
 
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Goro

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inafter goro ****s on penn state & CNU
inb4 goro mentions NY Touro
Touro NY has cleaned up their act and are no longer on my Bad Boy list. Ditto for WCU.

People will say LECOM potentially. I go there. It's worth applying to. Some things suck, but it matches well overall.

I will leave it to applicants as to whether dress codes and mandatory class attendance are deal breakers.
 
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ciestar

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PSU is my top choice...I agree with a lot of Goro's opinions but I can't say I align with the "actions of one from the undergrad" ideal. At least it isn't like LUCOM, where the conduct rules are reflective of the main campus administration.
Guess i should have transferred as a senior because the admin was bad.

Still love my alma mater
 
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Damson

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I can’t recommend Penn State given how their parent body protected a child molester for decades.
I can't recommend CNU, for reasons posted in other threads. Do a search.

Of DO schools, . I can't recommend Nova, BCOM, ICOM and LUCOM, for different reasons. MSUCOM? Read up on Larry Nasser and you decide. LMU has an accreditation warning, which concerns me. CUHS is too new and appears to be too limited in rotations sites. UIW refuses to post their Boards scores, which is fishy.

Here's why:
Nova: Two of the four last years have declining first-time COMLEX pass rates. The last two years for which we have data are in the low 90s. They still have yet to post data for the 2019-20 cycle, which is fishy. Some 7% of their 2018 grads failed to match, ditto 4% of their Class of 2019. There are also signs of significant delay to graduation in these numbers. That’s still not good for a veteran school. I’d expect > 95% pass rates and match rates closer to 100%. These problems are you expect from a new school. Something is very wrong there. See: Residency Match Data and COMLEX Level 3 Board Scores | NSU COM


LUCOM: I have a profound distaste for the politics of their parent organization; they’re disingenuous about whether their strict lifestyle rules apply to medical students (they do); and their Faculty make blatant attempts to twist facts to match their theology. In the midst of the COVID19 pandemic, Liberty president Jerry Falwell Jr insisted that the campus stay open! This was in violation of state lawBlack Liberty University alums rebuke Jerry Falwell after blackface tweet

And read this, while you’re at it:
Liberty University Poured Millions Into Sports. Now Its Black Athletes Are Leaving.

From the wise gyngyn: Liberty is poorly regarded due to the history of intolerance of their founding fathers. This school's reputation for intolerance puts its grads at a disadvantage at many reputable residency programs.


LMU: granted continuing Accreditation with Heightened Monitoring. “Accreditation with Heightened Monitoring: This indicates that fewer than three standards are non-compliant and ongoing monitoring will occur via progress reporting. For schools with this status, accreditation will be granted for four years.”

This is only one of three COMs that has this level of accreditation status right now.
Accreditation decisions for colleges of osteopathic medicine - American Osteopathic Association

On top of this, the administration of the parent body fired a dean for supporting social justice and racial equality.
Their position is: On August 14th, the President of LMU emailed new student policy that states “You are not allowed to be involved in any form of public statement about social justice and racial inequities in medicine in any prominent location on the LMU campus”."


BCOM: COMLEX pass rates are a disaster, even for a new school. In my own school's experience, people who fail the exam will almost always pass the second time around. Yet some 9% of BCOM's second class still couldn't pass on the second try. These are people who are now far less likely to ever become doctors. Their inaugural Class of 2020 has had a 25% attrition rate (160 down to ~120).

Also this: granted Accreditation with Heightened Monitoring. This indicates that fewer than three standards are non-compliant and ongoing monitoring will occur via progress reporting. For schools with this status, accreditation will be granted for four years. This is only one of three COMs that has this level of accreditation status right now.
Accreditation decisions for colleges of osteopathic medicine - American Osteopathic Association


ICOM: Not recommended due to the apparent dishonesty they had in setting up their school that poisoned the relations with hospitals in Idaho and/or the Idaho Medical Association. In addition, most of their rotation sites are very far away from the school. This raises the risk that the rotations are not adequately supervised and preceptors are not fully trained in teaching. And they have the nerve to give you only 48 hours to decide upon submitting a $1500 deposit!

Brand new DO schools are to be avoided (unless it’s your only accept) until they at least graduate a class. It takes time for faculty to gel and deliver a coherent curriculum; they have limited clinical rotations sites [it takes time to build these!], the degree of oversight of clinical training will be weak; the schools are unlikely to have resources for struggling students or those with mental health needs; lastly their grads will be unknown products to residency program directors.

NSU Class of 2020 match stats seem okay though? Still not enough to get off your bad boy list?
 

cw2013

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Touro NY has cleaned up their act and are no longer on my Bad Boy list. Ditto for WCU.

People will say LECOM potentially. I go there. It's worth applying to. Some things suck, but it matches well overall.

I will leave it to applicants as to whether dress codes and mandatory class attendance are deal breakers.

This is fair. The tie wasn't a big deal to me when I realized that ~30k in tuition is about the lowest you'll find. I do not suggest anyone does the lecture based pathway. You get 0 time to study for boards, but I guess with it being P/F does that really matter...
 
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Oct 20, 2020
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I can’t recommend Penn State given how their parent body protected a child molester for decades.
I can't recommend CNU, for reasons posted in other threads. Do a search.

Of DO schools, . I can't recommend Nova, BCOM, ICOM and LUCOM, for different reasons. MSUCOM? Read up on Larry Nasser and you decide. LMU has an accreditation warning, which concerns me. CUHS is too new and appears to be too limited in rotations sites. UIW refuses to post their Boards scores, which is fishy.

Here's why:
Nova: Two of the four last years have declining first-time COMLEX pass rates. The last two years for which we have data are in the low 90s. They still have yet to post data for the 2019-20 cycle, which is fishy. Some 7% of their 2018 grads failed to match, ditto 4% of their Class of 2019. There are also signs of significant delay to graduation in these numbers. That’s still not good for a veteran school. I’d expect > 95% pass rates and match rates closer to 100%. These problems are you expect from a new school. Something is very wrong there. See: Residency Match Data and COMLEX Level 3 Board Scores | NSU COM


LUCOM: I have a profound distaste for the politics of their parent organization; they’re disingenuous about whether their strict lifestyle rules apply to medical students (they do); and their Faculty make blatant attempts to twist facts to match their theology. In the midst of the COVID19 pandemic, Liberty president Jerry Falwell Jr insisted that the campus stay open! This was in violation of state lawBlack Liberty University alums rebuke Jerry Falwell after blackface tweet

And read this, while you’re at it:
Liberty University Poured Millions Into Sports. Now Its Black Athletes Are Leaving.

From the wise gyngyn: Liberty is poorly regarded due to the history of intolerance of their founding fathers. This school's reputation for intolerance puts its grads at a disadvantage at many reputable residency programs.


LMU: granted continuing Accreditation with Heightened Monitoring. “Accreditation with Heightened Monitoring: This indicates that fewer than three standards are non-compliant and ongoing monitoring will occur via progress reporting. For schools with this status, accreditation will be granted for four years.”

This is only one of three COMs that has this level of accreditation status right now.
Accreditation decisions for colleges of osteopathic medicine - American Osteopathic Association

On top of this, the administration of the parent body fired a dean for supporting social justice and racial equality.
Their position is: On August 14th, the President of LMU emailed new student policy that states “You are not allowed to be involved in any form of public statement about social justice and racial inequities in medicine in any prominent location on the LMU campus”."


BCOM: COMLEX pass rates are a disaster, even for a new school. In my own school's experience, people who fail the exam will almost always pass the second time around. Yet some 9% of BCOM's second class still couldn't pass on the second try. These are people who are now far less likely to ever become doctors. Their inaugural Class of 2020 has had a 25% attrition rate (160 down to ~120).

Also this: granted Accreditation with Heightened Monitoring. This indicates that fewer than three standards are non-compliant and ongoing monitoring will occur via progress reporting. For schools with this status, accreditation will be granted for four years. This is only one of three COMs that has this level of accreditation status right now.
Accreditation decisions for colleges of osteopathic medicine - American Osteopathic Association


ICOM: Not recommended due to the apparent dishonesty they had in setting up their school that poisoned the relations with hospitals in Idaho and/or the Idaho Medical Association. In addition, most of their rotation sites are very far away from the school. This raises the risk that the rotations are not adequately supervised and preceptors are not fully trained in teaching. And they have the nerve to give you only 48 hours to decide upon submitting a $1500 deposit!

Brand new DO schools are to be avoided (unless it’s your only accept) until they at least graduate a class. It takes time for faculty to gel and deliver a coherent curriculum; they have limited clinical rotations sites [it takes time to build these!], the degree of oversight of clinical training will be weak; the schools are unlikely to have resources for struggling students or those with mental health needs; lastly their grads will be unknown products to residency program directors.

This is incredible, I’m so glad that I posted. I really liked Nova, especially for their dual degree program with a masters in nutrition, but now I’ll think harder on it..

Thank you so much @Goro , it’s so nice to have community like this!

Thank everyone else too!!! Please keep the discussion going, my ears (or eyes rather) are open :woot:
 
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drstranger

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From what I've researched on this forum (that aren't new schools)...Ponce for MD and LMU-DCOM for DO

Loma linda and Liberty due to stringent religious conduct rules (unless you're cool with it)

CNU (MD) and Rocky Vista (DO) are for profit schools, but I haven't heard/seen anything out of the ordinary otherwise. Always nice if any students can chime in!

I'm sure plenty of people may say "any school not Caribbean is worth it", however.

Ponce is a good medical school if you are a native Spanish speaker or from PR so it has a very specific mission. Even though it is in PR it is still very much seen as a USMD, is it a top-tier school? Probably not but I would not group it with other problem children.
 

voppp

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And they have the nerve to give you only 48 hours to decide upon submitting a $1500 deposit!

This isn't true Goro. Plus if you're to speak with any student currently AT ICOM who chose ICOM over any other school they were accepted to, you'd find they are being taught very well. Rotations are going well and they have very very good first time pass rates.
 
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elphie236

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Why UIW? Yes the first class already got the brunt of difficulty that comes with a new school. Subsequent classes seem to be thriving better. Our clerkships are directly with private practice attending so it was easier to get letter of recommendation from attending physicians.
there’s also 5 residencies attached to the school
 

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What about Drexel? I've seen some negative stances towards them on here

Edit: Not to "avoid" but rather just watch out for i guess

Hahnemann Hospital was rough. The city needed it but so far it's the only place I've ever seen a roach in the ICU.

That being said, as a medical student there I always felt the education that the residents had gotten was top notch. The major weaknesses from my standpoint as a student there were the distributed nature of everything (preclinicals in the 'burbs, clinicals split between Hahnemann downtown and local + distant other hospitals; I did pediatrics in Pittsburgh), and you don't have as ready access to high-power research as you would at some academic powerhouses. The distributed nature didn't bug me. Neither did any research concerns, because research is for nerds and I am very cool. Most of my colleagues who wanted research were able to get their grubby little mitts on something, I think,

I enjoyed Drexel because they recorded all lectures and generally didn't make me show up in person unless it was strictly necessary, the faculty by and large were good folks, the rotations were set up with people that seemed actually interested in having students around, and most importantly I was able to live with friends from college.

I almost forgot another weakness: driving in philadelphia is a straight up "i have no mouth and I must scream" kind of nightmare.
 
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Wright state - family member is a student there and she/her classmates all told me they wouldn't have applied again if they had to. Apparently there is new admin who brought in a new curriculum and both have been rough - 3 of their best teachers in the preclinical curriculum quit or left in the past year supposedly because of new admin, and those 3 carried a heavy course load so now they're hurting to find people to teach.
 
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Ultravox Vienna

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Hahnemann Hospital was rough. The city needed it but so far it's the only place I've ever seen a roach in the ICU.

That being said, as a medical student there I always felt the education that the residents had gotten was top notch. The major weaknesses from my standpoint as a student there were the distributed nature of everything (preclinicals in the 'burbs, clinicals split between Hahnemann downtown and local + distant other hospitals; I did pediatrics in Pittsburgh), and you don't have as ready access to high-power research as you would at some academic powerhouses. The distributed nature didn't bug me. Neither did any research concerns, because research is for nerds and I am very cool. Most of my colleagues who wanted research were able to get their grubby little mitts on something, I think,

I enjoyed Drexel because they recorded all lectures and generally didn't make me show up in person unless it was strictly necessary, the faculty by and large were good folks, the rotations were set up with people that seemed actually interested in having students around, and most importantly I was able to live with friends from college.

I almost forgot another weakness: driving in philadelphia is a straight up "i have no mouth and I must scream" kind of nightmare.
Insightful comment thank you!
 
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@Goro has a bad boy DO list including MSUCOM, UIW, CHSU, etc.
-IMO, newer schools will be less established, in general (hectic rotations, no attached residencies, trying out new professors, etc)
-No Caribbean
-Lots of people have beef with for-profit schools like CNU (MD) and RVU (DO)

does this new school rule apply for schools like Kaiser?
 
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does this new school rule apply for schools like Kaiser?
No. Kaiser is like the rockstar supergroup of medical schools. They poached professors from other top programs so would likely have strong faculty-student connections, the school is linked (duh) to the resources of Kaiser Permanente (no issue with securing residency and clinical rotations!), not at all for profit (free tuition and even CoA for those with financial need).
 
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No. Kaiser is like the rockstar supergroup of medical schools. They poached professors from other top programs so would likely have strong faculty-student connections, the school is linked (duh) to the resources of Kaiser Permanente (no issue with securing residency and clinical rotations!), not at all for profit (free tuition and even CoA for those with financial need).
I certainly would not call it a rockstar supergroup yet. Their M1s probably aren’t even done with anatomy yet. We will have to wait and see what they look like in 10 years or so after they’ve graduated a few classes and become fully accredited. But for the time being, free school is a big deal, and they definitely won’t have problems with rotations. That does not mean there won’t be any hiccups, but they are off to a great start. If I had the option of getting an MD for free, I would choose it over quite a few top-tier institutions.
 
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Fidelio17

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I didn't go to Drexel, but based on my interview there, I'd suggest avoiding it if possible. They just really seemed to not care at all about anything - I have dietary restrictions that I communicated to them ahead of time & their response was "you could try the cafeteria?". Then lunch itself was a disaster because no one who could eat the provided food really ate anything - we were being grilled in very odd group interview style by current med students in groups of 3 or 4 applicants to a medical student. Then there was the the "online only" lecture curriculum that they defensively tried to tell me was innovative & pedagogically sound (my education degree & personal learning style says otherwise). Followed by my interview with someone in medical education who was at least honest enough to explain to me how the curriculum came to its current form (he sounded awfully defeated, but I appreciated the candor). Topped off by typing an essay... on an ipad (which meant one finger typing with a time limit).

But hey, there was a free t-shirt?

If that was the first date, I didn't want to find out what the relationship would be like. :shrug:
 
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ciestar

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I didn't go to Drexel, but based on my interview there, I'd suggest avoiding it if possible. They just really seemed to not care at all about anything - I have dietary restrictions that I communicated to them ahead of time & their response was "you could try the cafeteria?". Then lunch itself was a disaster because no one who could eat the provided food really ate anything - we were being grilled in very odd group interview style by current med students in groups of 3 or 4 applicants to a medical student. Then there was the the "online only" lecture curriculum that they defensively tried to tell me was innovative & pedagogically sound (my education degree & personal learning style says otherwise). Followed by my interview with someone in medical education who was at least honest enough to explain to me how the curriculum came to its current form (he sounded awfully defeated, but I appreciated the candor). Topped off by typing an essay... on an ipad (which meant one finger typing with a time limit).

But hey, there was a free t-shirt?

If that was the first date, I didn't want to find out what the relationship would be like. :shrug:
Well there is no essay this year.

When i interviewed applicants I certainly didn’t grill anyone.

As always, YMMV.
 
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