Are there any medical schools to avoid?

[deleted1066189]

Any thoughts on Noorda COM at Utah? New school that just got accredited and I believe it is “for profit”. Recently got an II here.

Their curriculum looks totally out of the ordinary, in a bad way, so I didn't apply.

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[Med Ed]

The "avoid the Caribbean schools" people are hilarious.

If you can go somewhere else do it but carib schools will make you a better physician IF you get through it. There's no hand holding in the Caribbean. There's no "come sit in the counselors office and talk about our feelings and how we're going to get you to a C so you can pass your class." You will not be babied and spoon fed anything. As a result, my experience with carribean grads who make it into residency and beyond are tough as nails and run circles around their pampered colleagues.

A good observation. I always suggest medical students get into relationships with abusive alcoholics for essentially the same reason.

 

[Blueprint Med School]

Depends on what one means by avoid and how many acceptances they have / expect to have.

I avoided at the advice of my health professions office counselor schools that had a traditional ABCDF and GPA grading scale. I also tried to avoid nomadic schools that didn't have one clinical home hospital, but that was more of a preference than a red line. If my numbers werent so pretty, I would have loosened those parameters. Like everyone else in the mid Atlantic, I applied and interviewed at Drexel. I'm glad they finally dumped that stupid essay.

Find out what are red lines for you, and they should be reasonable and relevant. Low pass rates, malignant culture, accreditation dangers. Almost every institution large enough to have it's own medical school is going to have controversies and bad actors. Drama with undergrads and athletic teams have almost zero to do with how a med school runs.

David D, MD - USMLE and MCAT Tutor
Med School Tutors

 

[Moko]

As a result, my experience with carribean grads who make it into residency and beyond are tough as nails and run circles around their pampered colleagues.

I've had a significantly different experience with Caribbean graduates. Anecdotally, I've found the interns they produce to be weaker clinically and require much more guidance and supervision early on compared to their US MD/DO counterparts. They do eventually get caught up. I'm certain there are some good residents coming out of these schools, just as how there are duds coming out of US MD/DO schools, but to claim that Caribbean grads are running circles around their US trained colleagues is a very generous and fanciful characterization.

Those considering Caribbean schools should do so with the utmost caution and research, and only after exhausting all other avenues to becoming a physician. Everyone going to a Caribbean school believes that they will be the exception to the rule, but so many students drop out or do not successfully match, and are left with crippling student debt without means to pay it off. A very risky endeavor, and I do feel that these for-profit schools prey on the desperation and naivity of premeds. Just my thoughts

 

[toastedbutter]

Any thoughts on Noorda COM at Utah? New school that just got accredited and I believe it is “for profit”. Recently got an II here.

just looked it up, says for-profit. isn't that a red flag? also it's in provo, you don't wanna be in provo lol.

 

[Goro]

just looked it up, says for-profit. isn't that a red flag? also it's in provo, you don't wanna be in provo lol.

I personally have a philosophical distaste for the for-profit schools, and can't recommend them.

There's no way they can convince me that the needs of their students outweigh the needs of their investors.

Also, brand new school should be avoided at least until they produce a graduating class. It takes time for The Faculty to gel and deliver a coherent curriculum, and these schools also are lacking in student Support Services, clinical rotation sites, and oversight of said sites

 

[Thebestofus]

I've had a significantly different experience with Caribbean graduates. Anecdotally, I've found the interns they produce to be weaker clinically and require much more guidance and supervision early on compared to their US MD/DO counterparts. They do eventually get caught up. I'm certain there are some good residents coming out of these schools, just as how there are duds coming out of US MD/DO schools, but to claim that Caribbean grads are running circles around their US trained colleagues is a very generous and fanciful characterization.

Those considering Caribbean schools should do so with the utmost caution and research, and only after exhausting all other avenues to becoming a physician. Everyone going to a Caribbean school believes that they will be the exception to the rule, but so many students drop out or do not successfully match, and are left with crippling student debt without means to pay it off. A very risky endeavor, and I do feel that these for-profit schools prey on the desperation and naivity of premeds. Just my thoughts

There's no question that given the choice you should choose to go to a US school over a Caribbean school. My post is simply meant to stand against the ignorance of people who have no idea what the Caribbean are about and simply make judgements from an elitist point of view.

Caribbean students by and large are just as good as us grads and in my own personal experience are often better prepared for 30 hour icu calls when all hell breaks loose and that's because all hell breaking loose is an ordinary day for a Caribbean medical student.

 

[Thebestofus]

A good observation. I always suggest medical students get into relationships with abusive alcoholics for essentially the same reason.

Those who recover from such abusive relationships go on to become extremely stalwart personalities as a result of their stuggles. No one should seek out such an experience, but anyone downplaying the strength of character that one develops after uphill battles like this....well... That kind of person lacks observational skills and should probably not become a doctor.

 

[Goro]

There's no question that given the choice you should choose to go to a US school over a Caribbean school. My post is simply meant to stand against the ignorance of people who have no idea what the Caribbean are about and simply make judgements from an elitist point of view.

Caribbean students by and large are just as good as us grads and in my own personal experience are often better prepared for 30 hour icu calls when all hell breaks loose and that's because all hell breaking loose is an ordinary day for a Caribbean medical student.

Has nothing to do with elitism.

The point isn't that there are successful Carib grads. The point is how many additional obstacles to success you face by going to a Carib school.

Quoting the wise @gyngyn

The pool of US applicants from the Caribbean is viewed differently by Program Directors. The DDx for a Caribbean grad is pretty off-putting: bad judgment, bad advice, egotism, gullibility, overbearing parents, inability to delay gratification, IA's, legal problems, weak research skills, high risk behavior. This is not to say that all of them still have the quality that drew them into this situation. There is just no way to know which ones they are. Some PD's are in a position where they need to, or can afford to take risks too! So, some do get interviews.

Bad grades and scores are the least of the deficits from a PD's standpoint. A strong academic showing in a Caribbean medical school does not erase this stigma. It fact it increases the perception that the reason for the choice was on the above-mentioned list!

Just about everyone from a Caribbean school has one or more of these problems and PDs know it. That's why their grads are the last choice even with a high Step 1 score.

There was a time when folks whose only flaw was being a late bloomer went Carib, but those days are gone. There are a [good] number of US med schools that will reward reinvention.

 

[Thebestofus]

The point isn't that there are successful Carib grads. The point is how many additional obstacles to success you face by going to a Carib school.

We make the same point. Success is attainable from a Caribbean medical school.

Difficult? Yes.
Filled to the brim with bs? Yes.
Expensive? Yes.
A risk? Yes.

A death sentence? Absolutely not. It's just not for the faint of heart.

 

[Med Ed]

Those who recover from such abusive relationships go on to become extremely stalwart personalities as a result of their stuggles.

Some do. They may also suffer permanent psychological damage, manifesting as anxiety, depression, substance abuse, isolation, difficulty forming and maintaining healthy relationships, etc. Similar findings can be observed in former Caribbean students working as EMTs to try and pay down their 200K debts.

I have worked with a number of Caribbean students/graduates over the years. Some of them have been quite good, but in aggregate I have not noticed them running circles around anyone.

No one should seek out such an experience, but anyone downplaying the strength of character that one develops after uphill battles like this....well... That kind of person lacks observational skills and should probably not become a doctor.

Nothing like a little Burnett's Law for Christmas.

 

[Thebestofus]

Some do. They may also suffer permanent psychological damage, manifesting as anxiety, depression, substance abuse, isolation, difficulty forming and maintaining healthy relationships, etc. Similar findings can be observed in former Caribbean students working as EMTs to try and pay down their 200K debts.

I have worked with a number of Caribbean students/graduates over the years. Some of them have been quite good, but in aggregate I have not noticed them running circles around anyone.


Nothing like a little Burnett's Law for Christmas.

Not exactly. Burnett's law implies that you are drawing a conclusion about someone's capabilities based off of a totally unrelated fact.

Observational skills are absolutely fundamental skills to have as a doctor. If you can't see how someone's struggles can and have affected their personalities then you lack good observational skills.

Nothing but cold hard facts for Christmas.

Merry Christmas ☃️🎄

 

[Med Ed]

Not exactly. Burnett's law implies that you are drawing a conclusion about someone's capabilities based off of a totally unrelated fact.

False. The veracity of the accusation is irrelevant.

Burnett’s Law: As an SDN Forums discussion grows longer, the probability of being told, “you will be a terrible doctor” or, “I feel bad for your future patients” approaches 1.

Your primary argument on this thread is a straw man. Your secondary argument is specious.

Merry Christmas.

 

[Doctoscope]

The "avoid the Caribbean schools" people are hilarious.

If you can go somewhere else do it but carib schools will make you a better physician IF you get through it. There's no hand holding in the Caribbean. There's no "come sit in the counselors office and talk about our feelings and how we're going to get you to a C so you can pass your class." You will not be babied and spoon fed anything. As a result, my experience with carribean grads who make it into residency and beyond are tough as nails and run circles around their pampered colleagues.

Let's be real, the only real reason to actually consider the Caribbean is if you completely fail at multiple MD/DO cycles... but if you get to that point, it should be fairly clear you don't have what it takes academically to go to medical school.

Pretty sure considering pre-STEP attrition rates + the abyssal match/placement rates for Caribbean grads, betting on the Carib is more or less statistically equivalent to betting $250,000+ on black in Vegas.

Highest match rate by specialty is a 70%, and that doesn't even account for the attrition rates.

Not looking so hot for Carib grads.

 

[LaughingGas10]

Let's be real, the only real reason to actually consider the Caribbean is if you completely fail at multiple MD/DO cycles... but if you get to that point, it should be fairly clear you don't have what it takes academically to go to medical school.

Pretty sure considering pre-STEP attrition rates + the abyssal match/placement rates for Caribbean grads, betting on the Carib is more or less statistically equivalent to betting $250,000+ on black in Vegas.



View attachment 325860

Highest match rate by specialty is a 70%, and that doesn't even account for the attrition rates.

View attachment 325861

Not looking so hot for Carib grads.

The number of truly "international" medical graduates being accepted into US residency programs has gone down. This is largely due to more US students coming back as "international" graduates from the caribbean. They have a huge advantage as compared to truly international medical graduates when applying for residencies because they have done their 2 years of clinical training in the USA at some of the underserved inner city hospitals, and thus can score good letters of reference from US physicians.

The denominator in the graph above for international graduates includes all true international graduates and the caribbean graduates and is thus deceptive. If you look at the "big 4" caribbean medical schools (georges, ross, AUC and saba), they do match fairly well into residency programs albeit mostly primary care and less desired specialties. What they dont disclose is that there is a significant weeding off of students in the first and second year due to several adversities.... academic, financial, resources and support infrastructure. I am not making a case for going to the caribbean straight away, but if your heart is set on being a doctor, and if you have exhausted all the options in the USA after at least 2 cycles, this is not such a bad idea as long as you are willing to work hard, can financially afford it and are willing to take a chance .

Regarding your other comment " it should be fairly clear you dont have what it takes academically to go to medical school". This is absolutely NOT true, there are hundreds if not thousands of doctors, who probably wont get into medical school TODAY, with the amount of academic competition that is ongoing, who are thriving and doing extremely well for themselves, and providing great service to lots of patients. Thus, even the medical schools have transitioned to a "holistic: review of applications, and not using just a standard cutoff of the MCAT and GPA, to select their students. I have several URM students who I have trained, with less than stellar academic records, who have graduated with flying colors and have made significant contributions to the medical field.

I have mentored and now am colleagues with several students who did their medical schooling in the caribbean, and the quality is not that different from US medical school graduates. There is definitely a bias, when they apply for residencies, and will be in the bottom most category (unless of course, if you have the right connections in the medical field, or if you willing to work hard, with the right amount of luck, then anything is possible, i have even seen some of them matching into highly sought after residencies )

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Any thoughts on Noorda COM at Utah? New school that just got accredited and I believe it is “for profit”. Recently got an II here.

As someone who is from there absolutely do not consider this school. No one wants them there, and Rocky Vista already controls essentially all of the rotation spots in the state that aren’t affiliated with the U.

 

[Sleepingdoc]

Hello, I am applying and wondering if there are any MD or DO schools that should be avoided in any of your opinions? And why? I know new schools are risky - are there any exceptions this year?

Sorry, I keep searching for this and can’t find any threads on it. I understand this will be largely subjective, but hoping for some opinions - especially from current medical students. Thank you!

Avoid the ones that you dont fit into after your interviews.. It does not matter if you get into top 5 school or top 100 school or bottom 100 school... if you cant fit in and finish their course work, you are not gonna be a doctor. In short you will know once you interview there.

 

[Med Ed]

The number of truly "international" medical graduates being accepted into US residency programs has gone down. This is largely due to more US students coming back as "international" graduates from the caribbean. They have a huge advantage as compared to truly international medical graduates when applying for residencies because they have done their 2 years of clinical training in the USA at some of the underserved inner city hospitals, and thus can score good letters of reference from US physicians.

Active FMGs in the match have hovered around 9,000-10,000 for the past decade. The number of active IMGs in the match actually peaked in 2016 (7,364) and has coasted down slightly since then (6,893 in 2020). The number of successful matches (and percent matched) has increased in all major categories since 2010:

2020 US Seniors: 18,108 (93.7)
2010 US Seniors: 14,992 (93.3)

2020 Osteopathic: 6,215 (86.9)
2010 Osteopathic: 1,444 (70.6)

2020 IMGs: 3,154 (61.0)
2010 IMGs: 1,749 (47.3)

2020 FMGs: 4,222 (61.1)
2010 FMGs: 2,881 (39.8)

The huge bump in osteopathic participants has to do with the accreditation merger and the end of the the AOA match. That and increasing enrollment in DO schools over this same time frame.

 

[Doctoscope]

The number of truly "international" medical graduates being accepted into US residency programs has gone down. This is largely due to more US students coming back as "international" graduates from the caribbean. They have a huge advantage as compared to truly international medical graduates when applying for residencies because they have done their 2 years of clinical training in the USA at some of the underserved inner city hospitals, and thus can score good letters of reference from US physicians.

The denominator in the graph above for international graduates includes all true international graduates and the caribbean graduates and is thus deceptive. If you look at the "big 4" caribbean medical schools (georges, ross, AUC and saba), they do match fairly well into residency programs albeit mostly primary care and less desired specialties. What they dont disclose is that there is a significant weeding off of students in the first and second year due to several adversities.... academic, financial, resources and support infrastructure. I am not making a case for going to the caribbean straight away, but if your heart is set on being a doctor, and if you have exhausted all the options in the USA after at least 2 cycles, this is not such a bad idea as long as you are willing to work hard, can financially afford it and are willing to take a chance .

Regarding your other comment " it should be fairly clear you dont have what it takes academically to go to medical school". This is absolutely NOT true, there are hundreds if not thousands of doctors, who probably wont get into medical school TODAY, with the amount of academic competition that is ongoing, who are thriving and doing extremely well for themselves, and providing great service to lots of patients. Thus, even the medical schools have transitioned to a "holistic: review of applications, and not using just a standard cutoff of the MCAT and GPA, to select their students. I have several URM students who I have trained, with less than stellar academic records, who have graduated with flying colors and have made significant contributions to the medical field.

I have mentored and now am colleagues with several students who did their medical schooling in the caribbean, and the quality is not that different from US medical school graduates. There is definitely a bias, when they apply for residencies, and will be in the bottom most category (unless of course, if you have the right connections in the medical field, or if you willing to work hard, with the right amount of luck, then anything is possible, i have even seen some of them matching into highly sought after residencies )

I’m sure there are plenty of excellent physicians that come out of the Carib. But those doctors succeeded IN SPITE of Carib schools, not because of.

I’m more talking about students who can’t get into MD/DO after multiple cycles, whether it be because of multiple low MCAT scores, abyssal GPA and poor post bacc, or just terrible studying habits, but then going off to the Carib, big 4 or not.

Nothing against these students, but not everyone is academically cut out for med school.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

There are literally hundreds of threads about the Caribbean. We don’t need another. There is info from both sides here. If anyone is curious, I suggest they do a search on this and the Caribbean sub-forum to get an idea of the realities of going there for medical school.

Otherwise, let’s keep this thread on its original topic and not derail it into another thread about the Caribbean.

 

[Goro]

Imagine lumping in foreign grads from the world with those from the Caribbean and acting like you know what you're talking about. Your data is flawed and your interpretation shows you're a drug reps dream. Easily lied to and with just enough information to think you're not being toyed with.


I went to a carib school. I took step 123 and I outperformed American grads by two standard deviations on every one. I then outperformed them in residency and got into a competitive fellowship. While that may seem like gloating, all that is to say that compared to my carribean colleagues on the island, on rotations and on tests I was middle of the road. I was not top 25% in my class. So your assumption that people who go to the Caribbean "couldn't cut it" in an American school just shows how steeped in ignorance you are. As I've said before, Caribbean grads in my opinion run the circles around their spoon fed counterparts.

Just not gonna let go of that bone, eh? Oh..... @Matthew9Thirtyfive! Start warming up that Banhammer, will ya?

 

[deomnibusdubitandum]

As someone who is from there absolutely do not consider this school. No one wants them there, and Rocky Vista already controls essentially all of the rotation spots in the state that aren’t affiliated with the U.

Rocky Vista has some not so stellar rotations in the mix as well, I'm curious what will be left for Noorda

 

[LaughingGas10]

Rocky Vista has some not so stellar rotations in the mix as well, I'm curious what will be left for Noorda

This is a problem with a lot of the newer DO schools with not enough quality "teaching" academic facilities. Lots of these students are getting sub par training with "community" hospitals and doctors , with very little education, and several of these clinical rotations is tantamount to a glorified shadowing experience.

As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts, the world class Mayo Clinic feels they can only train 100 MD students per year, in a quality way. Yet some of these newer "for profit DO schools", are getting in twice the number of students every year, with very poor training hospitals and rotations.

I wish they impose some regulations, similar to what the MD schools have, with requirement of defined curriculum and teaching rotations on these " newer for profit DO schools". They will spoil the reputation earned by some of the established high quality DO schools such as PCOM, KCU-COM or DMU-COM.

 

[DNAJB6]

"Are there any medical schools to avoid?"

Yes the vast majority of applicants (especially the extremely competitive ones) should avoid applying to any medical school that I'm applying to when my application cycle starts.

 

[TelemarketingEnigma]

This is a problem with a lot of the newer DO schools with not enough quality "teaching" academic facilities. Lots of these students are getting sub par training with "community" hospitals and doctors , with very little education, and several of these clinical rotations is tantamount to a glorified shadowing experience.

As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts, the world class Mayo Clinic feels they can only train 100 MD students per year, in a quality way. Yet some of these newer "for profit DO schools", are getting in twice the number of students every year, with very poor training hospitals and rotations.

I wish they impose some regulations, similar to what the MD schools have, with requirement of defined curriculum and teaching rotations on these " newer for profit DO schools". They will spoil the reputation earned by some of the established high quality DO schools such as PCOM, KCU-COM or DMU-COM.

As I've gotten into clinical years, I'm SO GLAD that I am at a school that supports us well in clinical rotations, because this issue wasn't something I really thought about when applying, but I now think is a huge deal. We had a lot of disruptions from COVID to our usual clinical sites (some closed entirely to students, etc) and while there was some chaos early on, our admin worked really hard to minimize disruptions, and even found us new clinical sites to rotate at to make up for lost ones. We have enough core rotations and electives 4th year that no one is required to look for aways to fill in gaps, though of course they can if they choose to. On the flip side, I've seen students literally begging on twitter for rotations they need to graduate because their schools aren't helping them figure it out (mostly newer DO it appears, but I don't know enough about every school's clinical rotations, there may be MDs in this boat too)

For premeds, I really strongly recommend learning more about this for schools you apply to, because it's not something I thought about at all and I really got lucky. Some schools even sell it as a positive (you can do 4th year anywhere in the country! you can be close to your family!) but that is only a good thing if you're guaranteed rotations at home if you can't find those aways.

 

[loveangel2206]

Any thoughts on Touro-CA? I was recently accepted there.

 

[Goro]

Any thoughts on Touro-CA? I was recently accepted there.

It's a fine school. Good matches and stats. How do I know this? I see my Dean's jaw clench every time their Dean crows about their numbers at AOA meetings.

In order to avoid 180+ posts about every medical school in the country, allow me to summarize.

There is only one MD school I can't recommend, and that's CNU. Do a search as to why.

There are several DO schools I can't recommend. I think I've addressed those earlier in this thread, but definitely in other threads.

New DO schools (ie, those that haven't graduated a class yet) should be avoided unless it's your only accept.

Some schools (MD and DO) have required lecture attendance and/or dress codes. This is for you to consider in making a school choice.

Some schools have sky high tuition. This is for you to consider in making a school choice.

For any other school, inquire in the school-specific threads.