Are there any medical schools to avoid?

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Kaiser is a closed system that indoctrinates their physicians into a certain model of practice. There is loss of autonomy and independence, the practice of medicine is determined by a corporation and very rarely by individual physicians, among many other things. The model favors cost cutting, which helps the bottom line but is not always in the best interests of patients. These things are well documented and not just my opinion, if you do the research.
 
RJ McReady said:
Kaiser is a closed system that indoctrinates their physicians into a certain model of practice. There is loss of autonomy and independence, the practice of medicine is determined by a corporation and very rarely by individual physicians, among many other things. The model favors cost cutting, which helps the bottom line but is not always in the best interests of patients. These things are well documented and not just my opinion, if you do the research.
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But, on the other hand (not that I would be a viable candidate for them anyway! 🙂), why is that a reason not to allow them to educate and train you before moving on? It's not like taking their free tuition and residency spot binds you to them for the duration for your career, is it?
 
Possibly, but who knows what their first graduating class will look like. My prediction is that most, and by that I mean greater than 80%, go into the Kaiser system. I find it hard to believe they will pay for and trsin physicians who they would just let go to compete against them.
 
RJ McReady said:
Possibly, but who knows what their first graduating class will look like. My prediction is that most, and by that I mean greater than 80%, go into the Kaiser system. I find it hard to believe they will pay for and trsin physicians who they would just let go to compete against them.
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I am sure they will seek to feed them into the system for residency (after all, I'm sure the motivation to start the school is to provide inputs into their system), and, since new grads will be an unknown product, that's probably where many will go, at least initially. But, unless the issues you pointed out above resolve themselves, why would well trained MDs stay once they are trained? The med school admission doesn't complete complete with an indentured servitude contract, like HPSP, does it?
 
With regard to the medical school, I’m not sure what their requirements or the small print involves.
I do know that new hires as MD’s have “Golden handcuffs” where their pension and benefits are tied to remaining with Kaiser for a set number of years or these benefits are lost.
 
RJ McReady said:
With regard to the medical school, I’m not sure what their requirements or the small print involves.
I do know that new hires as MD’s have “Golden handcuffs” where their pension and benefits are tied to remaining with Kaiser for a set number of years or these benefits are lost.
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If nothing else, it sounds like they have figured a way to align their MDs' financial interests with their own. Like on Wall Street though, if your services are in demand by other employers and you want to leave, potential employers somehow manage to find a way to make you whole (signing bonus, guaranteed target bonus, etc.), so it's not an issue for performers.
 
RJ McReady said:
With regard to the medical school, I’m not sure what their requirements or the small print involves.
I do know that new hires as MD’s have “Golden handcuffs” where their pension and benefits are tied to remaining with Kaiser for a set number of years or these benefits are lost.
Click to expand...

All companies have a vesting period for retirement or certain other benefits.
 
RJ McReady said:
Kaiser is a closed system that indoctrinates their physicians into a certain model of practice. There is loss of autonomy and independence, the practice of medicine is determined by a corporation and very rarely by individual physicians, among many other things. The model favors cost cutting, which helps the bottom line but is not always in the best interests of patients. These things are well documented and not just my opinion, if you do the research.
Click to expand...

Like Hospital Corporation of America or virtually every other major health system/hospital, no?
 
HCA is an umbrella entity that owns hospitals and other healthcare facilities. Physicians can be employed by them but there are also numerous other physicians who are in private practice. Kaiser is an HMO and all of their physicians are employees.
 
Michigan State University College of Human Medicine

MSU CHM
MSU CHM
MSU CHM
MSU CHM

Oh...and MSU CHM

AVOID THIS SCHOOL AT ALL COSTS

This may be one of the most faulty medical schools currently allowed to teach. They've designed a new curriculum with the idea that you become a better humanitarian (aka shrink) but they've done so at the complete expense of their medical education. You're required to follow nurses, social workers, physical therapists for months of the year which the majority of the students have found to be a waste of time. We're given no guidance as to how to learn, what to read or how to improve but that doesn't concern them at all. However when we show up to clinical site without an adequate knowledge base, the docs look at us like we're stupid.

The students do not like the curriculum, the faculty do not like the curriculum, the docs at their training sites do not like the curriculum. It's been expressed to them constantly over the past years but administration has refused to listen to ALL of the feedback they've received because they're too far down the rabbit hole now.

ANYBODY who succeeds at that school is in spite of the medical school. Best case scenario, they don't slow down your own grasp of medical knowledge, worst case scenario they'll completely overwhelm you with simulations and mandatory classes that we find useless and will take away valuable time from your own learning.

They do absolutely nothing to help us prepare for Step 1 or Step 2 and are quite aware of it but don't seem to care.

Bottom line, if you have an acceptance from any other school, choose the other school.
 
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Monty.P. said:
Michigan State University College of Human Medicine

MSU CHM
MSU CHM
MSU CHM
MSU CHM

Oh...and MSU CHM

AVOID THIS SCHOOL AT ALL COSTS

This may be one of the most faulty medical schools currently allowed to teach. They've designed a new curriculum with the idea that you become a better humanitarian (aka shrink) but they've done so at the complete expense of their medical education. You're required to follow nurses, social workers, physical therapists for months of the year which the majority of the students have found to be a waste of time. We're given no guidance as to how to learn, what to read or how to improve but that doesn't concern them at all. However when we show up to clinical site without an adequate knowledge base, the docs look at us like we're stupid.

The students do not like the curriculum, the faculty do not like the curriculum, the docs at their training sites do not like the curriculum. It's been expressed to them constantly over the past years but administration has refused to listen to ALL of the feedback they've received because they're too far down the rabbit hole now.

ANYBODY who succeeds at that school is because of their own work with no contribution from the medical school. Best case scenario, they don't slow down your own grasp of medical knowledge, worst case scenario they'll completely overwhelm you with simulations and mandatory classes that we find useless which will take away valuable time from your own learning.

They do absolutely nothing to help us prepare for Step 1 or Step 2 and are quite aware of it but don't seem to care.

Bottom line, if you have an acceptance from any other school, choose the other school.
Click to expand...
As someone who has both acceptances to MSUCHM and "any other school", this was disconcerting but helpful to hear. I will be looking into this further, thank you for sharing!
 
I wonder how these MD/DO schools end up in the poor situations that have been outlined in previous posts... Ideally you'd hope that the administrations of schools would hold themselves to a similar standard that they hold applicants to in terms of having a heart for service among other values.

Seemingly, some of these schools are trying to produce physicians with values that they themselves have no resemblance of (usually it's the administration it seems like). Or maybe they just do not care about the students or anyone for that matter.
 
Monty.P. said:
Michigan State University College of Human Medicine

MSU CHM
MSU CHM
MSU CHM
MSU CHM

Oh...and MSU CHM

AVOID THIS SCHOOL AT ALL COSTS

This may be one of the most faulty medical schools currently allowed to teach. They've designed a new curriculum with the idea that you become a better humanitarian (aka shrink) but they've done so at the complete expense of their medical education. You're required to follow nurses, social workers, physical therapists for months of the year which the majority of the students have found to be a waste of time. We're given no guidance as to how to learn, what to read or how to improve but that doesn't concern them at all. However when we show up to clinical site without an adequate knowledge base, the docs look at us like we're stupid.

The students do not like the curriculum, the faculty do not like the curriculum, the docs at their training sites do not like the curriculum. It's been expressed to them constantly over the past years but administration has refused to listen to ALL of the feedback they've received because they're too far down the rabbit hole now.

ANYBODY who succeeds at that school is in spite of the medical school. Best case scenario, they don't slow down your own grasp of medical knowledge, worst case scenario they'll completely overwhelm you with simulations and mandatory classes that we find useless and will take away valuable time from your own learning.

They do absolutely nothing to help us prepare for Step 1 or Step 2 and are quite aware of it but don't seem to care.

Bottom line, if you have an acceptance from any other school, choose the other school.
Click to expand...
So they've jumped on the Interprofessional Education bandwagon a bit too much, I see. IPE events are a waste of my time at my school. My students would flay the Dean alive if they tried to pull this here.

Complain complain complain to your Curriculum Deans. Get sympathetic faculty on your side as well.
 
manofgod747 said:
I wonder how these MD/DO schools end up in the poor situations that have been outlined in previous posts... Ideally you'd hope that the administrations of schools would hold themselves to a similar standard that they hold applicants to in terms of having a heart for service among other values.

Seemingly, some of these schools are trying to produce physicians with values that they themselves have no resemblance of (usually it's the administration it seems like). Or maybe they just do not care about the students or anyone for that matter.
Click to expand...
Well, for profit schools (CNU, ICOM, BCOM) put investors first, over students.

Others are not merely poorly run, the administration fails listen to any feedback, and it seems, treats any constructive criticism as a lack of professionalism (talking to you, LMU). Others get blinded by expansion and are so invested in the new campuses that they neglect the parent, or are even at a stage where the parent was not yet ready to the big leagues (LMU, NOVA DO).
 
In regard to for-profit schools, I haven't seen RVUCOM mentioned here. They seem to have a great match list despite being owned by the same parent company that owns SGU. Any consensus here @Goro ?
 
stormcloakdoctor said:
In regard to for-profit schools, I haven't seen RVUCOM mentioned here. They seem to have a great match list despite being owned by the same parent company that owns SGU. Any consensus here @Goro ?
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They seem to be in a different league than the others. I personally don't recommend RVU due to my distaste for the concept of a for profit med school, but I don't have them on my Bad Boy list, either.
 
elphie236 said:
Why UIW? Yes the first class already got the brunt of difficulty that comes with a new school. Subsequent classes seem to be thriving better. Our clerkships are directly with private practice attending so it was easier to get letter of recommendation from attending physicians.
there’s also 5 residencies attached to the school
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I would like to second this question. Why is UIW a bad boy?
 
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Sterlinyx said:
I'm not @Goro but that rate is far more than "a bit concerning" to me. That looks significantly lower than the average and is the lowest pass rate of ALL DO schools in the nation:

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It's actually not that bad for a new school, it's not wonderful though. If you look at BCOM 2020 pass rate it was 85% which depending on class size is one or two more students passing. Newer schools accept weaker students so they see more failures. At the school, I attend the first-year pass rate was only 88% and now they normally 95% or higher. Not saying it's great but it's not the end of the world, if I had to choose between a brand new school and UIWSOM, I would rather pick a school with a pass rate than a school that has not had a class take board yet.
 
drstranger said:
It's actually not that bad for a new school, it's not wonderful though. If you look at BCOM 2020 pass rate it was 85% which depending on class size is one or two more students passing. Newer schools accept weaker students so they see more failures. At the school, I attend the first-year pass rate was only 88% and now they normally 95% or higher. Not saying it's great but it's not the end of the world, if I had to choose between a brand new school and UIWSOM, I would rather pick a school with a pass rate than a school that has not had a class take board yet.
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I agree and understand your point for sure. I would just personally avoid any school where 1/5 of my classmates fail their boards. Of note - BCOM is also on Goro's bad boy list for having an abysmal pass rate and UIWCOM is even worse. I wonder what the second attempt pass is for UIW.
 
Sterlinyx said:
I agree and understand your point for sure. I would just personally avoid any school where 1/5 of my classmates fail their boards. Of note - BCOM is also on Goro's bad boy list for having an abysmal pass rate and UIWCOM is even worse. I wonder what the second attempt pass is for UIW.
Click to expand...
True I would also avoid either of those schools along with schools that have not taken boards yet like ICOM. And it will be interesting to see but we won't get good data on second classes for a while
 
Goro said:
They seem to be in a different league than the others. I personally don't recommend RVU due to my distaste for the concept of a for profit med school, but I don't have them on my Bad Boy list, either.
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Do they have a strong affiliated academic hospital? I looked into their match list and it is INSANE for a DO school (from what I have seen). multiple Derm, plastic surgery, vascular surgery, neurosurgery, and like 40 General surgery matches. Needless to say it convinced me to apply.
 
MoTx333 said:
It looks like UIW has recently updated their website. Their first-time pass rate seems to be a bit concerning, but does the (eventual) transparency of releasing the data alleviate this concern at all?
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This would have been their inaugural Class. Actually, this is typical for a brand new school. There are two reasons for such a low rate:
Poor curricular design (which takes a few years to gel)
A weak student body (brand new schools can't afford to be picky in whom to accept, or to dismiss failing students. They want bodies kept in seats to keep the gravy train rolling.
NY_Premed said:
Do they have a strong affiliated academic hospital? I looked into their match list and it is INSANE for a DO school (from what I have seen). multiple Derm, plastic surgery, vascular surgery, neurosurgery, and like 40 General surgery matches. Needless to say it convinced me to apply.
Click to expand...
They've graduated a class already????? I thought the pioneer class entered in 2017.
 
Goro said:
This would have been their inaugural Class. Actually, this is typical for a brand new school. There are two reasons for such a low rate:
Poor curricular design (which takes a few years to gel)
A weak student body (brand new schools can't afford to be picky in whom to accept, or to dismiss failing students. They want bodies kept in seats to keep the gravy train rolling.

They've graduated a class already????? I thought the pioneer class entered in 2017.
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It also took me a minute to figure out that the "they" with the insane match list was RVUCOM, not UIWSOM. UIWSOM has not graduated a class yet.
 
Goro said:
This would have been their inaugural Class. Actually, this is typical for a brand new school. There are two reasons for such a low rate:
Poor curricular design (which takes a few years to gel)
A weak student body (brand new schools can't afford to be picky in whom to accept, or to dismiss failing students. They want bodies kept in seats to keep the gravy train rolling.

They've graduated a class already????? I thought the pioneer class entered in 2017.
Click to expand...
www.rvu.edu

Residency Specialties and Locations - Rocky Vista University

Rocky Vista University (RVU) is a health-sciences institution of higher learning spanning three states: Colorado, Utah, and Montana. Each campus is equipped with a simulation center, standardized patient rooms, expansive active learning classrooms, a full gross anatomy cadaver lab, a research...
www.rvu.edu www.rvu.edu

This was what I was citing. I now see that the list I was referring to was showing all graduates from the school. Their 2020 match also looks like they placed pretty well too though!
 
NY_Premed said:
www.rvu.edu

Residency Specialties and Locations - Rocky Vista University

Rocky Vista University (RVU) is a health-sciences institution of higher learning spanning three states: Colorado, Utah, and Montana. Each campus is equipped with a simulation center, standardized patient rooms, expansive active learning classrooms, a full gross anatomy cadaver lab, a research...
www.rvu.edu www.rvu.edu

This was what I was citing. I now see that the list I was referring to was showing all graduates from the school. Their 2020 match also looks like they placed pretty well too though
Click to expand...
Yeah with that in mind RVUCOM has a decent match for an established DO school with a few great matches each year. However, the problem mentioned has more to do with their parent company not the schools ability to match
 
Any thoughts on Wayne State School of Medicine? Just wanna know if there is anything to be aware of?
 
All in Med said:
Any thoughts on Wayne State School of Medicine? Just wanna know if there is anything to be aware of?
Click to expand...
The WSU medical school and the Detroit Medical Center are not on the best of terms. Here's an example:
www.modernhealthcare.com

Detroit Medical Center says it will bar Wayne State pediatricians from Children's Hospital

Detroit Medical Center has informed Wayne State University that about 25 pediatricians affiliated with its new academic pediatric group, Wayne Pediatrics, will no longer be welcome to admit or treat patients at Children's Hospital of Michigan after July 1.
www.modernhealthcare.com www.modernhealthcare.com
Here's another story about Wayne and DMC.
www.freep.com

DMC, Wayne State fight for years with millions of dollars and care of poor at stake

Longtime partners in medical care and education, Wayne State and DMC have nearly split several times in recent years.
www.freep.com
 
Rheopecty said:
Unironically, my Wayne State interviewer listed this as a con of WSU when I asked. They tried salvaging/spinning the con by saying DMC & WSU eventually always reach an agreement in the end.
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Due to medical economics I'm not sure that things will be amicable between WSU and DMC for the next 20 years. Michigan has a bad payer mix with Medicaid, Medicare and a dominant Blue Cross Blue Shield. Furthermore, Wayne has to compete for rotation spots with Central and the MSU DO school.
 
After hearing that DMC was acquired by a for-profit company, and the issues with the relationship w/ WSU, I will probably end up withdrawing my admission. Thanks for the info!
 
The "avoid the Caribbean schools" people are hilarious.

If you can go somewhere else do it but carib schools will make you a better physician IF you get through it. There's no hand holding in the Caribbean. There's no "come sit in the counselors office and talk about our feelings and how we're going to get you to a C so you can pass your class." You will not be babied and spoon fed anything. As a result, my experience with carribean grads who make it into residency and beyond are tough as nails and run circles around their pampered colleagues.
 
Thebestofus said:
The "avoid the Caribbean schools" people are hilarious.

If you can go somewhere else do it but carib schools will make you a better physician IF you get through it. There's no hand holding in the Caribbean. There's no "come sit in the counselors office and talk about our feelings and how we're going to get you to a C so you can pass your class." You will not be babied and spoon fed anything. As a result, my experience with carribean grads who make it into residency and beyond are tough as nails and run circles around their pampered colleagues.
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???
Can I get survivorship bias for 100 please? What exactly are you trying to say? Is it that Carib is not a bad idea? Avoid Caribbean at all costs is not a funny joke. It's a legitimate warning.
 
Sterlinyx said:
Perhaps statistics is an area of improvement as well. Caribbean is not "more than viable".
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Just noticed you're still applying for med school lmao.

Get through that, then residency, then fellowship, then attendinghood and then come find me and we'll have a discussion about what success means. You chose to apply to a US school, good for you. Do not poopoo others for taking a different route little one.
 
Any thoughts on Noorda COM at Utah? New school that just got accredited and I believe it is “for profit”. Recently got an II here.
 
la flame said:
Any thoughts on Noorda COM at Utah? New school that just got accredited and I believe it is “for profit”. Recently got an II here.
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Their curriculum looks totally out of the ordinary, in a bad way, so I didn't apply.
 
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