Burnout

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acidbase1

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who here has experienced burnout? Put your tough guy egos aside and be honest. What were you doing when you were burnt out and what did you do to overcome it?
 
Hell yeah.
Burnout from pain - I switched jobs to ‘cure’ it.

Long term burnout is a real thing- that’s why I am aiming to retire by 45. Embracing the FIRE path, living below my means and strategizing for something else, or maybe nothing and just traveling.
 
acidbase1 said:
who here has experienced burnout? Put your tough guy egos aside and be honest. What were you doing when you were burnt out and what did you do to overcome it?
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Currently. Can probably only be cured with a job change. Just need to grow some stones. The comfort zone every in a less than optimal situation always makes big decisions hard.
 
Twiggidy said:
Currently. Can probably only be cured with a job change. Just need to grow some stones. The comfort zone every in a less than optimal situation always makes big decisions hard.
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I’m there as well, it’s merely a continuation from residency. I know the analogy of “it’s a marathon not a sprint” describes the “healthiest” way to pursue this career. However, I am working hard now so one day I can have freedom. Difficult years now beat being a slave in the future.

According to recent studies, 50% of us have legitimate burnout.
 
No burnout here... but yeah... either retire or 50% w/in the next 5 years. Just came off a really long stretch of vaca... damn that felt good.
I want to know what it's like to wake up at 8am everyday and have to do little "jobs" around the house before exploring the next adventure.
Considering my work ethic, if i get some f'n cancer killer before I'm 70 I'm gonna be pissed!
 
acidbase1 said:
who here has experienced burnout? Put your tough guy egos aside and be honest. What were you doing when you were burnt out and what did you do to overcome it?
Click to expand...

I've only been out a year but I can see why guys who've been out 10 yrs just wanna say f it. I love being in the unit and working with residents in the OR, but days with CRNAs (they're esp militant here) are soul crushing. My escape plan is to eventually do 100% ICU in a good practice if the OR ever puts me over the edge.

More and more the FIRE plan is sounding appealing. Wife also makes good money and we're starting to shop for our first house- used to have pipe dreams of the posh $1m house in the city but the $500k one in some suburban subdivision is sounding a whole lot better. Dreamed about that new stelvio quadrifoglio when I was graduating- now I'm pretty sure I'm gonna drive my car into the ground and max out 401 and Roth instead.
 
I was pretty darn burnt out by the end of my second residency. However, I was horribly toxic in my first anesthesia job when I got a taste of the real world anesthesia dishonesty. I’m in a better situation now. However, I always keep my letter of resignation handy if things change because it is not worth it to be miserable. Now my burnout tends to be seasonal when the northeastern winters start to drag and I go long stretches without seeing sun...either because of late days or just general gray weather.

I think one of the keys to alleviating burnout is to have a plan. A 1-year, 5-year, and 10-year goal. The FIRE stuff out there is helpful, though I’m not sure how realistic it is for most people. I think having a plan to cut back on work earlier in life is more realistic than completely walking away. I will have failed at my goal if I’m still taking 24 hour in-house call deep into my 50s. Financial freedom is obviously the key to this and the biggest takeaway from the FIRE movement (is it a movement?) is to control consumerism. Controlling spending is probably more important than increasing income when it comes to financial independence. However, as someone who doesn’t have a particularly high drive for consumerism, I still find it hard to resist at times. The marketing has gotten so aggressive that it’s important to continually remind yourself of your goals and what is actually important. The more you buy, the more you need to work.
 
GravelRider said:
Nothing different than what has been documented on these forums. The greasy, used car salesman trying to sell you a piece of junk is an appropriate analogy. I fell for it, but won’t again.
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What kind of non-compete did you sign, how far did you have to move?
 
vector2 said:
Dreamed about that new stelvio quadrifoglio when I was graduating- now I'm pretty sure I'm gonna drive my car into the ground and max out 401 and Roth instead.
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don't understand the appeal of alfa romeo when telsas are so prevalent in the US now... two of my attendings have nice Giulias, they can't covince me though....
what's the advantage over BMW and MB?
 
vector2 said:
I've only been out a year but I can see why guys who've been out 10 yrs just wanna say f it. I love being in the unit and working with residents in the OR, but days with CRNAs (they're esp militant here) are soul crushing. My escape plan is to eventually do 100% ICU in a good practice if the OR ever puts me over the edge.

More and more the FIRE plan is sounding appealing. Wife also makes good money and we're starting to shop for our first house- used to have pipe dreams of the posh $1m house in the city but the $500k one in some suburban subdivision is sounding a whole lot better. Dreamed about that new stelvio quadrifoglio when I was graduating- now I'm pretty sure I'm gonna drive my car into the ground and max out 401 and Roth instead.
Click to expand...
Be thankful. Bc you could be living where I am, where 1 million won't buy you any sort of SFH whatsoever. You'll be lucky to get that suburban subdivision house for 1.5.
 
dchz said:
don't understand the appeal of alfa romeo when telsas are so prevalent in the US now... two of my attendings have nice Giulias, they can't covince me though....
what's the advantage over BMW and MB?
Click to expand...

Well, I guess the advantage is that the giulia is essentially a Ferrari that doesnt cost 400k. I don't think anyone can say it's definitively better than an M3/4 or C63, but I just like the fact that it looks different, is rarer than a BMW or merc, handles like a beast, and sounds like hell on wheels.

Check out some videos and articles, theres a reason it was the only sedan in MT best drivers car list

https://www.motortrend.com/news/alfa-romeo-giulia-quadrifoglio-6th-place-2017-best-drivers-car/
 
GravelRider said:
I was pretty darn burnt out by the end of my second residency. However, I was horribly toxic in my first anesthesia job when I got a taste of the real world anesthesia dishonesty. I’m in a better situation now. However, I always keep my letter of resignation handy if things change because it is not worth it to be miserable. Now my burnout tends to be seasonal when the northeastern winters start to drag and I go long stretches without seeing sun...either because of late days or just general gray weather.

I think one of the keys to alleviating burnout is to have a plan. A 1-year, 5-year, and 10-year goal. The FIRE stuff out there is helpful, though I’m not sure how realistic it is for most people. I think having a plan to cut back on work earlier in life is more realistic than completely walking away. I will have failed at my goal if I’m still taking 24 hour in-house call deep into my 50s. Financial freedom is obviously the key to this and the biggest takeaway from the FIRE movement (is it a movement?) is to control consumerism. Controlling spending is probably more important than increasing income when it comes to financial independence. However, as someone who doesn’t have a particularly high drive for consumerism, I still find it hard to resist at times. The marketing has gotten so aggressive that it’s important to continually remind yourself of your goals and what is actually important. The more you buy, the more you need to work.
Click to expand...

I think FIRE is a movement. More than half the young docs I talk to are familiar with the White Coat Investor, yet few of my partners have heard of him.
 
Not yet. Winter of CA-2 year was a dark place though.

I'm one year out and couldn't be happier.

I crossfit, play in adult sports leagues, and travel as much as I can (I'm also single in a fun city).

I'm incredibly fortunate enough to work with people I consider my friends and genuinely like/spend time with outside the hospital.

I have a lot of time off with my position now because I take so much call/work extra weekends, so we'll see how it plays out over time. When I'm working my second weekend in a row with 24 hour in house call I am definitely getting pissy about the small stuff, but I know a nice week or two off is coming. Hopefully I can keep it up.
 
Last edited:
dchz said:
What kind of non-compete did you sign, how far did you have to move?
Click to expand...

5 mile, 2 year. It wasn’t really an issue. I also didn’t buy a house and put most of my money into savings and my loans. I live in a pretty high cost of living area (not NYC or SF, but higher than most). I have since paid off my >$300k student debt in just over 3 years and bought a house in a nice area with 20% down. I also don’t make the million dollar salaries you see on here, but I don’t care. Life is way too short to chase a paycheck. I’m more than happy with a Toyota and a Honda in the garage. Median anesthesia salaries are still more than enough to live comfortably and build wealth.

Getting your finances straight and your priorities straight goes a long way towards helping with burnout. That was about the only thing I did right first coming out. And definitely don’t sign a contract without considering your exit plan first.
 
vector2 said:
Well, I guess the advantage is that the giulia is essentially a Ferrari that doesnt cost 400k. I don't think anyone can say it's definitively better than an M3/4 or C63, but I just like the fact that it looks different, is rarer than a BMW or merc, handles like a beast, and sounds like hell on wheels.

Check out some videos and articles, theres a reason it was the only sedan in MT best drivers car list

https://www.motortrend.com/news/alfa-romeo-giulia-quadrifoglio-6th-place-2017-best-drivers-car/
Click to expand...

I saw Top Gear review it and Clarkson seemed to like it but he also is very biased towards BMW
 
Shimmy8 said:
Not yet. Winter of CA-2 year was a dark place though.

I'm one year out and couldn't be happier.

I crossfit, play in adult sports leagues, and travel as much as I can (I'm also single in a fun city).

I'm incredibly fortunate enough to work with people I consider my friends and genuinely like/spend time with outside the hospital.

I have a lot of time off with my position now because I take so much call/work extra weekends, so we'll see how it plays out over time. When I'm working my second weekend in a row with 24 hour in house call I am definitely getting pissy about the small stuff, but I know a nice week or two off is coming. Hopefully I can keep it up.
Click to expand...

I went to the original box in Dallas when i was in med school, some of the best time of my life.

sounds like you got a good gig. what's your fran time?
 
I don't want to cheese ppl off but I get burnout thinking about *not* working. Im a worker bee, always have been. I like routine, it keeps me ticking. Gets me out of bed.

I don't like like 80 to 90 hour weeks, 40 odd is my idea of heaven. I don't like the mountains of paperwork to be done, and I detest exams for what they do to my psyche despite doing ok on most of them eventually.

Maybe I'm a wierdo loser but if I retired at 45 I'd be a lay about and dead by 60...

Thinking about a 2 week holiday gives me reflux..
 
Newtwo said:
I don't want to cheese ppl off but I get burnout thinking about *not* working. Im a worker bee, always have been. I like routine, it keeps me ticking. Gets me out of bed.

I don't like like 80 to 90 hour weeks, 40 odd is my idea of heaven. I don't like the mountains of paperwork to be done, and I detest exams for what they do to my psyche despite doing ok on most of them eventually.

Maybe I'm a wierdo loser but if I retired at 45 I'd be a lay about and dead by 60...

Thinking about a 2 week holiday gives me reflux..
Click to expand...
Sounds like you need a good hobby.
 
Twiggidy said:
Sounds like you need a good hobby.
Click to expand...

Seriously, I cant understand the 'live to work' vs 'work to live' mentality. Anesthesia usually attracts entirely the latter category. I, for one, could easily spend the rest of my days hanging with the wife, traveling the world, bettering my french and german, playing golf, playing guitar, taking lessons at a race track, cooking, and working on my investment game if I won the lottery tomorrow.
 
vector2 said:
Seriously, I cant understand the 'live to work' vs 'work to live' mentality. Anesthesia usually attracts entirely the latter category. I, for one, could easily spend the rest of my days hanging with the wife, traveling the world, bettering my french and german, playing golf, playing guitar, taking lessons at a race track, cooking, and working on my investment game if I won the lottery tomorrow.
Click to expand...
It's like we're the same person or something. Like yourself, I could come up with a list of things I rather be doing than coming to work today.
 
vector2 said:
Seriously, I cant understand the 'live to work' vs 'work to live' mentality. Anesthesia usually attracts entirely the latter category. I, for one, could easily spend the rest of my days hanging with the wife, traveling the world, bettering my french and german, playing golf, playing guitar, taking lessons at a race track, cooking, and working on my investment game if I won the lottery tomorrow.
Click to expand...

Here lies the crux of the problem. In order to retire early and do all those retirement things we want to do, you need to work hard and invest wisely early on for a number of years. I’m guessing most anesthesiologists will spend 150-200k+ per year in order to maintain a certain lifestyle + expenses. Sure you can live off of much less than that, but that might restrict the lifestyle to some degree. Work hard for 10-15+ years and then start cutting down eventually hitting 50% in order to maintain benefits and not digging into retirement savings all the while it keeps on growing until you get to a certain number you are very comfortable saying it’s time to hang it up completely. That number depends on how old you are at retirement and what your realistic spending habits will be. Some say 2-3 large is enough.
I’d say at least double that.
 
sevoflurane said:
Work hard for 10-15+ years and then start cutting down
Click to expand...
Yeah but the things you do at 55 ain't the same as when you are 25-35 y/o.
One of my collegue's dad worked like a dag (yeah i like dags) postponing stuff til retirement. When he stopped he developed Afib and reacted badly to amiodarone. Now he can barely walk a hundrard yards and all plans went to the $hitter.
 
A change of scenery every so often helps. Post residency, my life has been
  • 5 years at hospital A (with a bunch of locums at 2 other places, and a 7 month vacation in Afghanistan)
  • 2 years at hospital B (with a little bit of locums at 2 other places)
  • 1 year of fellowship at hospital C
  • 1 year back at hospital B (with some time at hospital D, and a little bit of locums at 1 other place, and 2 months of winning hearts & minds in southeast Asia)
I've got about 3 1/2 more years at hospital B, with some more locums mixed in, and probably another 6-7 months somewhere in the Middle East at some point. Then I'll retire with a pension & lifetime health benefits at 47, then work full time another 5-10 years, then either go part time or quit entirely.

Neither bored nor burnt out. I still basically love my day-to-day job in the OR. However, I'd have no trouble filling my days with entertaining activity if I wasn't working.

As @GravelRider mentioned upthread, if I'm still taking overnight call when I'm 55, some part of the grand plan has gone way off the rails.


sevoflurane said:
Some say 2-3 large is enough. I’d say at least double that.
Click to expand...

4% SWR of $3 million is $120,000/year, adjusted for inflation, in perpetuity. You can live and travel pretty well on that if you don't have a mortgage payment, lease payment on an airplane, alimony ... health insurance may be a bit of a wild card for the early retiree.
 
pgg said:
4% SWR of $3 million is $120,000/year, adjusted for inflation, in perpetuity. You can live and travel pretty well on that if you don't have a mortgage payment, lease payment on an airplane, alimony ... health insurance may be a bit of a wild card for the early retiree.
Click to expand...

3 million -invested- will give you what you say. Assets I would imagine would be another 1,000,000 on top of that at least (way more if you live in a major city).

The S&P dropped 20+% in 2008... one needs to be prepared for that and recovery can be slow.

Then there is expenses of daily living (food, utilities, vehicles, home insurance)... and then spending money for eating out, travel and leisure. These expenses add up.

Medical care can be a ball buster as you alluded to. I met my deductible both last year and this year... so did my wife.

I plan for the worst, so I expect something serious happening in the next 40 years. Maybe an earthquake will hit my neighborhood like it did 10 years ago and I’ll have to cough up that fat earth quake insurance deductible.

I’m a conservative guy and like to have a safety net to a safety net.
But that is just how I roll.

In the end it is up to your comfort level and tolerances with your spending and safety net.
 
I need an honest assessment of how I am doing.

I have been out 5 years and I am on my second job. First job was a predatory practice and I knew from early on I was out. I am currently at a great place making good money for my location and I am very happy in my position. I make about 400 a year plus benefits. The wife and I finished our respective schooling with 450K in debt at the height of the financial fiasco. She works in a fairly low paying field but it’s a very flexible job and suits our family. We own a home that we purchased 4 years ago and it’s value has increased by 100k. We have almost 6 months mortgage saved and four months of living expenses (although the living expenses may get eaten up by some home improvement costs soon). We are aggressively paying our debt down and I am maxing my 401k and I have a small amount in there 150k. I own my small commuter car and the wife has a low cost auto loan. No credit debt. Kids are still in public grade school bu likely will have to attend private. We go on 1-2 vacations a year at about an average of 2-3k per trip. Wife and I allow ourselves about 1000 every six months for splurges. One area we could save on is food because we tend to eat out on later nights or when I am on call. We pay cash for any larger expenses.
 
sevoflurane said:
3 million -invested- will give you what you say. Assets I would imagine would be another 1,000,000 on top of that at least (way more if you live in a major city).

The S&P dropped 20+% in 2008... one needs to be prepared for that and recovery can be slow.

Then there is expenses of daily living (food, utilities, vehicles, home insurance)... and then spending money for eating out, travel and leisure. These expenses add up.

Medical care can be a ball buster as you alluded to. I met my deductible both last year and this year... so did my wife.

I plan for the worst, so I expect something serious happening in the next 40 years. Maybe an earthquake will hit my neighborhood like it did 10 years ago and I’ll have to cough up that fat earth quake insurance deductible.

I’m a conservative guy and like to have a safety net to a safety net.
But that is just how I roll.

In the end it is up to your comfort level and tolerances with your spending and safety net.
Click to expand...


All true, but keep in mind that if you keep your license active with a bit of locums you can always go back and work more, AND once you ARE truly FI you can cut your allocation to a much lower percentage in stocks so those big drops are not so big. Heck, to get the 4% we are talking about you could annuitize and eliminate most of the risk.
 
caligas said:
All true, but keep in mind that if you keep your license active with a bit of locums you can always go back and work more, AND once you ARE truly FI you can cut your allocation to a much lower percentage in stocks so those big drops are not so big. Heck, to get the 4% we are talking about you could annuitize and eliminate most of the risk.
Click to expand...

I second that keeping your certification up to date with at least a .2FTE would seem to be a good "retirement" plan. Even a bad locums job will give $6k per week, so the $65k per year in doing 11 weeks of work will offset health insurance and provide $30k of spending money. At least then if things don't go according to plan you have a six figure job and benefits to fall back on.
 
caligas said:
All true, but keep in mind that if you keep your license active with a bit of locums you can always go back and work more, AND once you ARE truly FI you can cut your allocation to a much lower percentage in stocks so those big drops are not so big. Heck, to get the 4% we are talking about you could annuitize and eliminate most of the risk.
Click to expand...

Agree 100%.
 
AnonymousHippopotamus said:
I need an honest assessment of how I am doing.

I have been out 5 years and I am on my second job. First job was a predatory practice and I knew from early on I was out. I am currently at a great place making good money for my location and I am very happy in my position. I make about 400 a year plus benefits. The wife and I finished our respective schooling with 450K in debt at the height of the financial fiasco. She works in a fairly low paying field but it’s a very flexible job and suits our family. We own a home that we purchased 4 years ago and it’s value has increased by 100k. We have almost 6 months mortgage saved and four months of living expenses (although the living expenses may get eaten up by some home improvement costs soon). We are aggressively paying our debt down and I am maxing my 401k and I have a small amount in there 150k. I own my small commuter car and the wife has a low cost auto loan. No credit debt. Kids are still in public grade school bu likely will have to attend private. We go on 1-2 vacations a year at about an average of 2-3k per trip. Wife and I allow ourselves about 1000 every six months for splurges. One area we could save on is food because we tend to eat out on later nights or when I am on call. We pay cash for any larger expenses.
Click to expand...
I think that all sounds pretty reasonable.
 
anbuitachi said:
Sad part about being in medicine. Saving 35k a year from age 21 to 60 at 6% growth rate gets you about 5M by age 60.. Saving 100k a year from age 35-100 gets you 5M. How man of you can save 100k a year from 35-60??
Click to expand...

Currently making mid 300s. Also Airbnb my house for about 30-40k a year, who knows how long that will last.

Currently able to max out 401k (18.5k), HSA (3.4k), and backdoor Roth (5.5k). My company puts in an additional 33k-ish a year.

That’s rough 60k.

I’m also making student loan payments 5k/month and paying off a personal loan 4K/month. Once those start to get pegged down...I’ll be saving >100k easy. Probably by age 35.

With that said, and in the spirit of this thread, I’m working my ass off extra picking up shifts. That definitely won’t last at this rate. So who knows if I can maintain these finances?
 
For those of you looking for part time positions, our group is still growing and are once again hiring. We offer part time positions- some of our newest members have elected to have every Friday off. Please see job listing under the "Anesthesia Positions" link within the Anesthesia section of SDN.
 
anbuitachi said:
Sad part about being in medicine. Saving 35k a year from age 21 to 60 at 6% growth rate gets you about 5M by age 60.. Saving 100k a year from age 35-100 gets you 5M. How man of you can save 100k a year from 35-60??
Click to expand...

It’s called thinking outside the box.
 
Shimmy8 said:
Currently making mid 300s. Also Airbnb my house for about 30-40k a year, who knows how long that will last.

Currently able to max out 401k (18.5k), HSA (3.4k), and backdoor Roth (5.5k). My company puts in an additional 33k-ish a year.

That’s rough 60k.

I’m also making student loan payments 5k/month and paying off a personal loan 4K/month. Once those start to get pegged down...I’ll be saving >100k easy. Probably by age 35.

With that said, and in the spirit of this thread, I’m working my ass off extra picking up shifts. That definitely won’t last at this rate. So who knows if I can maintain these finances?
Click to expand...

lots of extra shifts for 350? partnership track? though that's pretty good benefits. are you living on the streets since your house is taken?
 
acidbase1 said:
It’s called thinking outside the box.
Click to expand...

This line reads so, so much like an person who's only ever lived and invested in the post-2009 stock market. A rising tide lifts all boats, even the ones that aren't seaworthy.

It doesn't address, or even acknowledge, the risk of the unnamed outside-the-box schemes.

It's glib, nonspecificic, unhelpful, and just a little bit smug. It's obnoxious and annoying.
 
pgg said:
This line reads so, so much like an person who's only ever lived and invested in the post-2009 stock market. A rising tide lifts all boats, even the ones that aren't seaworthy.

It doesn't address, or even acknowledge, the risk of the unnamed outside-the-box schemes.

It's glib, nonspecificic, unhelpful, and just a little bit smug. It's obnoxious and annoying.
Click to expand...

Not to mention we've all been living in a secular 40 year long bond bull market. Everyone who knows how to deal with a bond bear market is dead
 
I’m at m
anbuitachi said:
lots of extra shifts for 350? partnership track? though that's pretty good benefits. are you living on the streets since your house is taken?
Click to expand...

Mid 300s salary. Extra call/shifts will take me to 400+ this year.

I travel a lot, work 24 hour in house on weekends, and have a gf who enjoys the benefits of my company when my house is taken. So I’m really not home much anyway. Oh, and I pay for her to travel with me. Nice arrangement.
 
okayplayer said:
Hahaha ok, Steve Jobs. And I’m the one with the stupid comment.

Spend a few minutes with a compound interest calculator/future value function on an Excel spreadsheet and get back to me.
Click to expand...

Ever read “rich father, poor father”? You’re the poor father.

There’s other ways to make money than “the market”, brah
 
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