CCLCM vs. Columbia Bassett

[JTJ]

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CCLCM vs. Columbia-Bassett

I just found out that there is a very good chance that I will be accepted to Columbia-Bassett within the next few days. So, I need to decide ASAP if I will accept that spot. I know many will say to “follow the money,” but I really want to make sure I find the right fit. So, I’m going to throw it out to a bunch of strangers, not so much to decide for me, but to add things to my lists for both schools to help me decide. I apologize that this is so rough, but it is a very hasty assessment.

CCLCM
Pros: Full scholarship, research year, awesome clinical resources, 2 yrs of primary care longitudinal rotations, pre-clinical education is really well thought out and perfectly matches my learning style, unpreserved cadavers, I’m really interested in clinical research/epidemiology/public health so research year would be fun, already found an apartment here (but I’m pretty sure I could break the contract with a fee), could do an MPH at Case, academic medicine seems like it would be an extremely satisfying career.

Cons: Don’t want to do wet-lab research after this summer (if I go here), not a real possibility of doing business or public policy work outside of free time.

Columbia-Bassett
Pros: $30,000 scholarship, chance to do an MBA (or MPH at Mailman), Cooperstown is awesome, seeing first-hand how a health care system works would be sweet, 1.5 yrs of NYC and 2.5 yrs of Cooperstown would be a cool experience, 1.5 yrs pre-clinical education is nice, longitudinal rotations in Cooperstown are awesome, great name (this is a minor factor—Cleveland Clinic also has a great name within medicine, even if CCLCM is very new).

Cons: My wife doesn’t like big cities (I love NYC), not a lot of time in NYP L, I like rural medicine, but I don’t want to do it all my life (program is NOT totally focused on this, but there are some aspects of this involved; however, I would not mind doing rural medicine in a more administrative role as a career), new program (but it seems really well thought out). More expensive (probably about $85,000 more, and even more than that if I decided to do an MBA or an MPH).

Board Scores and match results are totally negligible between the two schools.

I feel really blessed to be in this situation. Both schools are incredible, and I’m leaning towards CCLCM right now, but that might just be because I have been planning on going here for the last few months. Thanks for your help!

 

[Hoody]

CCLCM! 👍

 

[mdeast]

Based off your post I'd stay with cclcm. The bassett program is designed for people who are interested in primary care and rural medicine. It's sort of the reason the program was made. There are other focuses but that's the central idea behind it front my general understanding. Also if you love NYC I don't really think Cooperstown will be the most "fun" place for 4 years. But maybe that's just me?

 

[topsurgeon2010]

I applied to both and I would say definitely Cleveland Clinic for MANY reasons:

Pros for CCLCM:

• it seems like you dont know if you want to go into primary care/rural medicine which is what the Basset Program is CLEARLY about and may actually limit your options if later you decide you want to apply for competitive specialty programs that aren't primary care residencies (lack of research is going to hurt you at the top academic programs for the competitive specialties like radiology, radiation oncology, neurosurgery, dermatology, etc.) You may change your mind at some point in medical school so Cleveland Clinic while it stresses academic medicine it certainly will not close ANY doors for you when its time for you to apply for residencies even if you later decide you dont want to do academic medicine or want to do rural medicine (which has a relatively low pay) which is great because you just saved $80,000+ by going to CCLCM anyways!
• Cleveland Clinic is free tuition (you dont have to pay $48,000 a year plus other perks like free parking and free laptop)! You'll be paying $80,000+ just for the "Columbia" name on your degree for a program that is trying to create doctors to provide care for under-served and poor populations who could care less where you got your degree and probably have never heard of Columbia..plus like you said is not worth it considering Cleveland Clinic's prestige in medicine and Case is a top-20 medical school
• classes from 8am-noon with Thursdays off, there are no exams and no grades at CCLCM so stress will be lower but you have to be self-motivated and extremely disciplined
• get treated like a doctor from day 1, Cleveland Clinic is the only school I know that gives its medical students a full-length white coat at its white coat ceremony which is a pretty big deal since all other schools give their medical students half-length white coats or no white coats at all.
• while in reality both programs are competitive, there seemed to be a perception at Columbia that the Columbia-Basset program seems to be the "easier" way to get into Columbia while CCLCM is one of the most competitive programs in the US and has a perception of prestige among members of the Case Western/Cleveland Clinic community
• you will be pretty isolated in Cooperstown at Columbia Bassett (and will see limited cases compared to urban hospitals which is the whole point of the Bassett program--they want you to see patients from isolated/rural areas) while Cleveland isn't NYC but it is a medium-sized city (good compromise between you and your wife) with an associated university (can do a MPH, MBA, Masters in Applied Anatomy, Masters in Biomedical Sciences, etc for free during the fifth year)

 

[pelliper]

Just a question--how the heck did you get into BOTH of these programs? They are incredibly different programs focused on completely different things.

 

[bigman225]

I applied to both and I would say definitely Cleveland Clinic for MANY reasons:

Pros for CCLCM:

• while in reality both programs are competitive, there seemed to be a perception at Columbia that the Columbia-Basset program seems to be the "easier" way to get into Columbia while CCLCM is one of the most competitive programs in the US and has a perception of prestige among members of the Case Western/Cleveland Clinic community

I'll second this. I was also accepted to Bassett despite the fact that I was outspoken about my lack of interest in primary care. I was never enthusiastic about spending my mid 20s in a village, although I loved the doctors up in Cooperstown.

However, when I was in NYC I felt as though some students might have a haughty disdain for the lowly intellectual caliber of Bassett applicants. The student speaking to us during lunch bemoaned a potential "change in character" at Columbia, because Columbia students have traditionally been "people who really sink their teeth into what they do." I almost suffocated on his smugness. I had some *really* good interactions with first year students during my stay at Bard, so it might have just been an anomaly. But it is hard to forget stuff like that when it comes time to choose a school. Why they let that dude talk to us I'll never know.

I am sure the majority of Columbia students are really humble, bright people. I don't mean to insult the school at all, just provide the OP with my viewpoint (and defend Topsurgeon's assertion regarding a negative of the Bassett program specifically, not Columbia P&S).

Also keep in mind that while 30,000 per year in support is a generous offer, it alone will not be enough to keep you out of significant debt if you choose to attend Columbia. I don't think you'll be railroaded into primary care if you go to Bassett, though. They were adamant about that.

 

[anders11]

However, when I was in NYC I felt as though some students might have a haughty disdain for the lowly intellectual caliber of Bassett applicants. The student speaking to us during lunch bemoaned a potential "change in character" at Columbia, because Columbia students have traditionally been "people who really sink their teeth into what they do." I almost suffocated on his smugness.

Wow.. I would've been pissed if I were you. I hope there aren't too many people in our class like that.. from everything I've heard, the average MCAT/GPA of the Bassett kids is going to be the same or higher than everyone else's at P&S.

But assuming most people at P&S are pretty cool, a few smug opinions shouldn't factor into your decision. Egotistical people are probably just part of the package in going into medicine, no matter where you are.

But ultimately, CCLCM has the same longitudinal deal as Bassett. Does it have the same healthcare systems research opportunities? Cause if so, between that and all the extra money, sounds like CCLCM pretty much has you covered. good luck deciding.

 

[mmmcdowe]

Wow.. I would've been pissed if I were you. I hope there aren't too many people in our class like that.. from everything I've heard, the average MCAT/GPA of the Bassett kids is going to be the same or higher than everyone else's at P&S.

But assuming most people at P&S are pretty cool, a few smug opinions shouldn't factor into your decision. Egotistical people are probably just part of the package in going into medicine, no matter where you are.

But ultimately, CCLCM has the same longitudinal deal as Bassett. Does it have the same healthcare systems research opportunities? Cause if so, between that and all the extra money, sounds like CCLCM pretty much has you covered. good luck deciding.

Yeah, it definitely is unfortunate if someone was really that ignorant at lunch (I gave every Bassett tour but one so hopefully it wasn't me. I think the Bassett program is great and significantly strengthens the diversity of Columbia), because the scores and GPAs of the Bassett accepted students were significantly higher than the actual program. I, naturally, think that Columbia is the better option. We are also low stress with no pre-clinical grades and I'd much rather be treated with respect than get on a lot of physician's nerves by wearing a full white coat. You are also allowed to come down for one rotation (which will be 1/5 of a year in your curriculum) at NYP so or another affiliate so there is some time built in at NYP. Ultimately (though Cleveland isn't exactly a small town), it sounds like your relationship with your wife may need you to go to Cleveland.

 

[JTJ]

There are other focuses but that's the central idea behind it front my general understanding. Also if you love NYC I don't really think Cooperstown will be the most "fun" place for 4 years. But maybe that's just me?

I actually really liked Cooperstown, FWIW. I like big urban places and secluded towns. As far as villages go, Cooperstown is definitely on the nicer end!

• it seems like you dont know if you want to go into primary care/rural medicine which is what the Basset Program is CLEARLY about and may actually limit your options if later you decide you want to apply for competitive specialty programs that aren't primary care residencies (lack of research is going to hurt you at the top academic programs for the competitive specialties like radiology, radiation oncology, neurosurgery, dermatology, etc.) You may change your mind at some point in medical school so Cleveland Clinic while it stresses academic medicine it certainly will not close ANY doors for you when its time for you to apply for residencies even if you later decide you dont want to do academic medicine or want to do rural medicine (which has a relatively low pay) which is great because you just saved $80,000+ by going to CCLCM anyways!
• Cleveland Clinic is free tuition (you dont have to pay $48,000 a year plus other perks like free parking and free laptop)! You'll be paying $80,000+ just for the "Columbia" name on your degree for a program that is trying to create doctors to provide care for under-served and poor populations who could care less where you got your degree and probably have never heard of Columbia..plus like you said is not worth it considering Cleveland Clinic's prestige in medicine and Case is a top-20 medical school
• classes from 8am-noon with Thursdays off, there are no exams and no grades at CCLCM so stress will be lower but you have to be self-motivated and extremely disciplined
• get treated like a doctor from day 1, Cleveland Clinic is the only school I know that gives its medical students a full-length white coat at its white coat ceremony which is a pretty big deal since all other schools give their medical students half-length white coats or no white coats at all.
• while in reality both programs are competitive, there seemed to be a perception at Columbia that the Columbia-Basset program seems to be the "easier" way to get into Columbia while CCLCM is one of the most competitive programs in the US and has a perception of prestige among members of the Case Western/Cleveland Clinic community
• you will be pretty isolated in Cooperstown at Columbia Bassett (and will see limited cases compared to urban hospitals which is the whole point of the Bassett program--they want you to see patients from isolated/rural areas) while Cleveland isn't NYC but it is a medium-sized city (good compromise between you and your wife) with an associated university (can do a MPH, MBA, Masters in Applied Anatomy, Masters in Biomedical Sciences, etc for free during the fifth year)

These are all great points. Thank you for being so thorough and thoughtful!

Just a question--how the heck did you get into BOTH of these programs? They are incredibly different programs focused on completely different things.

I have very diverse interests, and I wasn't just making them up for the application 🙂. Bassett struck me as interesting because of it's focus on healthcare delivery systems (my application and interviews focused on this). I don't think that either program is a perfect fit, but I think that I would prefer an academic career (which would still allow me to get involved in healthcare administration or public policy in the future).

I'll second this. I was also accepted to Bassett despite the fact that I was outspoken about my lack of interest in primary care. <Snip>

However, when I was in NYC I felt as though some students might have a haughty disdain for the lowly intellectual caliber of Bassett applicants. <Snip>

I am sure the majority of Columbia students are really humble, bright people. <Snip>

Also keep in mind that while 30,000 per year in support is a generous offer, it alone will not be enough to keep you out of significant debt if you choose to attend Columbia. I don't think you'll be railroaded into primary care if you go to Bassett, though. They were adamant about that.

I do have some interest in primary care, especially from the standpoint of improving the quality of primary care delivery. I kinda got the sense that those on the P&S side thought of Bassett as a primary care program, but that the people at Bassett did not think of it that way at all. I'm confident that any specialty would be an option from Bassett.

Also, I didn't meet any students that didn't think highly of Bassett, and I'm sure that the vast majority of P&S students are awesome. However, the person who called me about opening yesterday did mention that all of the Bassett students were extremely intelligent. It would be a shame if Bassett students had to resort to the "my MCAT score could beat up your MCAT score" argument with the traditional students.

But ultimately, CCLCM has the same longitudinal deal as Bassett. Does it have the same healthcare systems research opportunities? Cause if so, between that and all the extra money, sounds like CCLCM pretty much has you covered. good luck deciding.

This is a really good point. I think that both programs are cutting edge in this regard, and it's something that really drew me to each one. It was more of a surprise when I heard about it at CCLCM, but I think that made me love the program even more.

Yeah, it definitely is unfortunate if someone was really that ignorant at lunch (I gave every Bassett tour but one so hopefully it wasn't me. I think the Bassett program is great and significantly strengthens the diversity of Columbia), because the scores and GPAs of the Bassett accepted students were significantly higher than the actual program. I, naturally, think that Columbia is the better option. We are also low stress with no pre-clinical grades and I'd much rather be treated with respect than get on a lot of physician's nerves by wearing a full white coat. You are also allowed to come down for one rotation (which will be 1/5 of a year in your curriculum) at NYP so or another affiliate so there is some time built in at NYP. Ultimately (though Cleveland isn't exactly a small town), it sounds like your relationship with your wife may need you to go to Cleveland.

It's nice to finally put an online name with a face! You are really helpful online, and unless I was one of the unlucky few not to visit with you during lunch, you were very gracious and helpful during my session, and spoke highly of the Bassett program and the students it would draw.

As far as GPA, MCAT, and diversity go, I am positive that the Bassett students will be exceptional. The students I interviewed with in Cooperstown were head and shoulders above those I met on any other interview day, and I am actually really shocked that I was offered a spot. As I said before, it would be a real shame if any of the traditional students think themselves higher than the "lowly" Bassett students.

My wife is very gracious, and she is definitely willing to give NYC a try. We are both west coast natives, and so she is much more worried about living far from family than in a big city. Plus, Cooperstown would be heaven on earth to her, and well worth the potential struggle in NYC.



I just wanted to say thanks again for all of your responses. You have been extremely helpful, perhaps because you have been able to see my biases so clearly from my hasty thoughts. I am leaning even more towards CCLCM right now, but I have a little more time to decide, and so I would still appreciate any more thoughts!

 

[bamtuba]

I'm sure you know this already, but speaking as someone who has been married for the past 7 years now, you REALLY have to go where you would both be happy.

Your wife will be your best support system through this madness, and (to quote one famous philosopher) "if she ain't happy, ain't nobody happy."

 

[anders11]

Your wife will be your best support system through this madness, and (to quote one famous philosopher) "if she ain't happy, ain't nobody happy."

That's a really good point..

Just to throw out another viewpoint on this: Your wife sounds very willing to live in the place that's best for you for now, which is awesome - but if you're really on the fence between the two schools, consider the difference between the two scenarios four years from now: After 4 years in Cleveland, if she's really tired of city life, that will either affect how you look at residencies (especially if you're looking at a competitive field like optho or derm where you pretty much have to apply to almost every program to be assured of getting in), or it will affect your relationship. You may decide it's only fair for you to compromise in your residency choice based on her happiness (even if she's willing to compromise herself. It sucks when your partner is really unhappy, and being the partner of someone in residency is stressful enough without being in a stressful location on top of it.)

But if you spend 2.5 years in Cooperstown, it may seem more fair for you to seriously consider a city residency if that's what you want. She may even be totally cool with the idea, since she's had some country time. After all, you'd be talking about just 4-5 years of continuous city life in that scenario, as opposed to a possible 8-9 if you go to Cleveland.

(This is all really hypothetical, so I'm mostly just thinking of what would be important to me if I were in your situation, residency usually being considered more important than medical school and all that. Real world factors would probably complicate this, but oh well.)

 

[topsurgeon2010]

also if you are interested in how health care systems work..you can do your MBA or MPH for free and you should see if there is a way you can get to work on some health management aspects of the Cleveland Clinic in Abu Dhabi that is opening up in 2012..should be really interesting to see how they transfer the Cleveland Clinic's culture and model of patient care to Abu Dhabi--the richest city in the world and is about 1.5 hr drive from another amazing city: Dubai..you may even be able to do a thesis on this who knows...haha I know you said your wife doesn't like cities but just throwing this potential option out there..


Cleveland Clinic in Abu Dhabi Teaser: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssieo7FWjm4


http://my.clevelandclinic.org/departments/abudhabi/clevelandclinicinabudhabi.aspx


Cleveland Clinic recruiting staff for Cleveland Clinic in Abu Dhabi:

http://blog.cleveland.com/medical/2009/02/cleveland_clinic_seeking_staff.html


Abu Dhabi: Richest city in the world

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2007/03/19/8402357/index.htm

 

[JTJ]

Thanks again for all of your responses. With some reluctance, I have declined my spot at Columbia-Bassett, but I am so excited to get started at CCLCM!