Charting outcomes for 2022

[Ho0v-man]

https://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Charting-Outcomes-DO-Seniors-2022_Final.pdf

2020:

2022:

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[Doctoscope]

WTF Happened to PM&R? I thought this was one of the most DO-friendly specialties? Were there just that many more unqualified applicants, because it seems hard to believe it went "anti-DO" over a year...

Also, RIP DO gas and rads. Is this the new trend, or just a fluke?

 

[Cath Up]

Very surprised by PMR. And always funny to see a single person's application stats as in vascular haha. Props to that person...

 

[Goro]

Look at Derm!!! That used to be uber-unfriendly to DOs

Even neurosurg is doable!!

Are any of you old enough to remember all the Wailing and gnashing of teeth when the merger was first announced?? Looks like those people were wrong, eh?

 

[Sleepingdoc]

I guess programs like the hands on skills of MD rather than a DO for PM&R

 

[DrStephenStrange]

I thought psych was getting more competitive. I guess people were wrong.

Neuro is still gucci though, and that's all I needed to make it on the other side.

Edit: Also they don't even bother including plastic surgery in the DO chart anymore lol. I guess it's no longer one of the DO specialties. Or did anyone even apply this year?

 

[giguerex35]

any idea on whether this is a a push back from COVID or the new reality

 

[DrStephenStrange]

WTF Happened to PM&R? I thought this was one of the most DO-friendly specialties? Were there just that many more unqualified applicants, because it seems hard to believe it went "anti-DO" over a year...

Also, RIP DO gas and rads. Is this the new trend, or just a fluke?

Very surprised by PMR. And always funny to see a single person's application stats as in vascular haha. Props to that person...

I guess programs like the hands on skills of MD rather than a DO for PM&R

This chart explains it. Looks like too many DOs applied to PM&R this year and not enough spots for everyone.

 

[Doctoscope]

I thought psych was getting more competitive. I guess people were wrong.

Neuro is still gucci though, and that's all I needed to make it on the other side.

Edit: Also they don't even bother including plastic surgery in the DO chart anymore lol. I guess it's no longer one of the DO specialties. Or did anyone even apply this year?

Do you think neuro will remain gucci until 2027 lol? I'm applying to med schools right now strongly interested in pursuing neuro, and I don't neuro to go the way of gas or rads...

 

[MDMechEngr]

As more schools rush to open, the **** show will continue. The match rate is good though. Thank god for primary care.

 

[Prehealth1011]

Do you think neuro will remain gucci until 2027 lol? I'm applying to med schools right now strongly interested in pursuing neuro, and I don't neuro to go the way of gas or rads...

It’ll stay the same/similar is my guess. Gas/Rads let’s you escape medicine and uniformly start at 400-450k that’s why those are and will remain competitive.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Do you think neuro will remain gucci until 2027 lol? I'm applying to med schools right now strongly interested in pursuing neuro, and I don't neuro to go the way of gas or rads...

It's very difficult to predict the future. One of the reasons why Neuro is still not as competitive for DOs as other fields is due to lack of exposure resulting in not many DO seniors applying. So many DO schools do not require a Neuro rotation including mine. I have classmates who went into IM who tell me now they wish they knew more about neuro and at least considered it as an option earlier on.

I believe the next biggest increase in DO graduates is in 2024, so assuming all things staying the same, you might see an increase in DOs applying every year as new schools keep opening up, but I don't foresee it being alot. Also, there is a slight increase in Neuro spots every year as well, so both increase in numbers may cancel each other out too. On the other side people in Neurology have been increasing awareness to the field lately on social media, and that might play a role in more and more DO students applying every year making it more competitive.

In conclusion, it can go either way.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

I thought psych was getting more competitive. I guess people were wrong.

Neuro is still gucci though, and that's all I needed to make it on the other side.

Edit: Also they don't even bother including plastic surgery in the DO chart anymore lol. I guess it's no longer one of the DO specialties. Or did anyone even apply this year?

They excluded specialties that didn't have at least 7 matched/unmatched applicants

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

I think that neuro could get more competitive since it’s somewhat more insulated from MLPs than IM, has good options for inpatient/outpatient mix after residency, and earns a slight premium compared to IM. Also probably a bit easier to get neuro jobs in desirable areas compared to hospital medicine

 

[Kardio]

The gas and rads dropoff is brutal

 

[Sidus1011]

I think that neuro could get more competitive since it’s somewhat more insulated from MLPs than IM, has good options for inpatient/outpatient mix after residency, and earns a slight premium compared to IM. Also probably a bit easier to get neuro jobs in desirable areas compared to hospital medicine

Shhh keep it secret

 

[BoneWizard]

The number of USMD and DO seniors applying to neurology has gone up ~20-25% the last two years. The number of positions has only increased by ~11%. I'd say its getting much more popular.

 

[Doctoscope]

The number of USMD and DO seniors applying to neurology has gone up ~20-25% the last two years. The number of positions has only increased by ~11%. I'd say its getting much more popular.

I guess neuro has a large number of IMGs in their spots, and they'd be squeezed out first before US graduates. On second thought I don't think neuro will go the way of gas or rads due to lower compensation and the nature of the subject material (I heard neuroanatomy/neuroscience is unpopular among med students...?).

 

[DrStephenStrange]

I guess neuro has a large number of IMGs in their spots, and they'd be squeezed out first before US graduates. On second thought I don't think neuro will go the way of gas or rads due to lower compensation and the nature of the subject material (I heard neuroanatomy/neuroscience is unpopular among med students...?).

You're right, the amount of IMGs matching Neuro has been slowly going down.

 

[DrZoidbergDO]

Welp guess I'm not gonna be getting into gas lol

 

[Dr Meow]

Welp...there goes Rads and everything good.
FML.

 

[hellosnd]

**** field is kinda dramatic... and very demeaning.

 

[Dr Meow]

They're not competitive for obvious reasons.
We study harder and we're left with the scraps. I'd be fine if we just call DO a tax but have a fair shot once the tax is paid aka OMM and TWO sets of boards + scrambling to find research. But this is not a tax. This match list is absolutely demeaning! The worst in YEARS. This is beyond outrageous.

 

[Browns99]

any idea on whether this is a a push back from COVID or the new reality

No

 

[h23]

Welp...there goes Rads and everything good.
FML.

We're left with the **** fields no one wants now.
This is HORRIBLE! Wtf are our DO leaders doing?!? POS mth****rs

Relax man, none of us know what could happen next year. Maybe this will be new trend, maybe it won't be. There is a chance that it won't be, but who knows. None of us can really tell the future. No use in raising our blood pressure over it though and stressing about how the sky is falling. Med school's hard enough as it is anyway.

 

[Cath Up]

They're not competitive for obvious reasons.
We study harder and we're left with the scraps. I'd be fine if we just call DO a tax but have a fair shot once the tax is paid aka OMM and TWO sets of boards + scrambling to find research. But this is not a tax. This **** match list is absolutely demeaning! The worst in YEARS. This is beyond outrageous.

The difficulty in attaining competitive residencies from a DO school post-merger has been known for some time. Pre-residency merger, it was still difficult. This is nothing new. The numbers have changed around a little bit to be more competitive, which was also predictable given the increase in MD and DO school seats without a commensurate increase in # of residency spots in competitive specialties.

What I am trying to say is that sure, the system is not ideal, but you (and I) are to a large extent responsible for knowing what is reasonable versus what is only remotely possible as far as residency specialty goes. The numbers for neurosurgery from DO schools is always under a 1 per school average as far as I remember... which tells you it probably doesn't make sense to go to a DO school if you want that to be in the cards. Complaining about it like you are indicates you probably didn't look into the issue much before it directly impacts you. This data is similar to the past.

I'd love for the OMM tax and two sets of boards and a research year to be considered an adequate cost to equate to parity at MD programs. But it doesn't. It sure gets you closer though- and middle tier academic programs seem to tend to notice people who have put in a ton of effort like that, to be equivalent to the exact stats a lot of MD applicants end up with. There has been and will continue to be a subset of middle tier and upper tier residency programs that just avoid DOs though.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

i think it’s more the new reality. One can’t expect that such a rapid expansion of DO schools wouldn’t lower the match rate for DOs.

You have schools in New York opening satellites in Arkansas, schools in Philadelphia opening satellites in Georgia. New for profit schools opening up every year.

I’m guessing most traditionally ACGME residencies take a fixed number of DOs. For example, I’ve seen some surgery, radiology etc. rosters that always seem to have only one DO. Obviously as more compete for one spot, it will get much more difficult to get these spots. In the aggregate, this means certain specialties will have lower match rates.

Seems like it’s starting to spread to MD schools as well. UVM opening in CT, Creighton opening in Arizona etc. LCME should crack down.

 

[FootballAndSkiing]

Lake Erie in Florida

 

[h23]

In regards to your example, I feel like we'd need a more clear picture before we can extrapolate data and say definitively that it's just going to be harder for DOs now. I'm still somewhat inclined to believe that this year could have been a fluke since we did just come out of an entire pandemic, where DO students were extremely screwed over in regards to rotations, step exams and research opportunities. Most schools don't have a dedicated hospital as some MD schools do, people had to cancel their Step exams and undergo some real hardship, which could have contributed to a more stressful environment and may have lead to worse scores or something. From some friends I know who were going through that period, their DO school didn't help them at all. I mean, you even had schools like TCOM, an actual good DO school, have their students completely clueless as to where they could complete their core rotations and have to advertise on twitter to get a spot so they could graduate. Things aren't like that anymore thankfully. For the most part, we're back to normal, at least I hope. But my point is, at least from what I saw a lot of MD students who go to schools that have resources didn't have to go through that type of hell that DO students went through. Positions like Rads and gas that have very little patient contact and in a world post-COVID, where doctors are being ridiculed for trying to help, it makes sense why those fields are getting more popular. I just think that these past few years presented DO students with a lot more challenges than MD students had to deal with. Maybe that could mean that as COVID gets better (hopefully), we'll be in a somewhat better shape for matching in the future? Who knows though tbh

i think it’s more the new reality. One can’t expect that such a rapid expansion of DO schools wouldn’t lower the match rate for DOs.

You have schools in New York opening satellites in Arkansas, schools in Philadelphia opening satellites in Georgia. New for profit schools opening up every year.

I’m guessing most traditionally ACGME residencies take a fixed number of DOs. For example, I’ve seen some surgery, radiology etc. rosters that always seem to have only one DO. Obviously as more compete for one spot, it will get much more difficult to get these spots. In the aggregate, this means certain specialties will have lower match rates.

Seems like it’s starting to spread to MD schools as well. UVM opening in CT, Creighton opening in Arizona etc. LCME should crack down.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

In regards to your example, I feel like we'd need a more clear picture before we can extrapolate data and say definitively that it's just going to be harder for DOs now. I'm still somewhat inclined to believe that this year could have been a fluke since we did just come out of an entire pandemic, where DO students were extremely screwed over in regards to rotations, step exams and research opportunities. Most schools don't have a dedicated hospital as some MD schools do, people had to cancel their Step exams and undergo some real hardship, which could have contributed to a more stressful environment and may have lead to worse scores or something. From some friends I know who were going through that period, their DO school didn't help them at all. I mean, you even had schools like TCOM, an actual good DO school, have their students completely clueless as to where they could complete their core rotations and have to advertise on twitter to get a spot so they could graduate. Things aren't like that anymore thankfully. For the most part, we're back to normal, at least I hope. But my point is, at least from what I saw a lot of MD students who go to schools that have resources didn't have to go through that type of hell that DO students went through. Positions like Rads and gas that have very little patient contact and in a world post-COVID, where doctors are being ridiculed for trying to help, it makes sense why those fields are getting more popular. I just think that these past few years presented DO students with a lot more challenges than MD students had to deal with. Maybe that could mean that as COVID gets better (hopefully), we'll be in a somewhat better shape for matching in the future? Who knows though tbh

As more and more DO schools open up things are going to get worse and not better

 

[deleted688186]

Not the kind of trend I want to see as an incoming OMS1

 

[hellosnd]

They're not competitive for obvious reasons.
We study harder and we're left with the scraps. I'd be fine if we just call DO a tax but have a fair shot once the tax is paid aka OMM and TWO sets of boards + scrambling to find research. But this is not a tax. This match list is absolutely demeaning! The worst in YEARS. This is beyond outrageous.

that attitude will get you far in life.

 

[h23]

As more and more DO schools open up things are going to get worse and not better

I'm not saying that everything will be absolutely amazing and we have nothing to worry about, but I feel like the narrative here is a lot more negative than what it might actually be. It feels like we're taking the absolute worst case scenario and believing that it will inevitably happen. Aren't things like this, i.e. matching and whatnot, more centered on the individual rather than the collective, meaning whether or not the person was DO?

Edit: I feel like my comment could be misconstrued. I'm mainly saying individual merits do matter, but at least the vibe I'm getting from here is that the DO degree is becoming a death sentence if you desire anything remotely competitive, which I don't feel like anyone could accurately predict even with the rise in new DO schools

 

[DOVinciRobot]

I'm not saying that everything will be absolutely amazing and we have nothing to worry about, but I feel like the narrative here is a lot more negative than what it might actually be. It feels like we're taking the absolute worst case scenario and believing that it will inevitably happen. Aren't things like this, i.e. matching and whatnot, more centered on the individual rather than the collective, meaning whether or not the person was DO?

Edit: I feel like my comment could be misconstrued. I'm mainly saying individual merits do matter, but at least the vibe I'm getting from here is that the DO degree is becoming a death sentence if you desire anything remotely competitive, which I don't feel like anyone could accurately predict even with the rise in new DO schools

Being a DO is not a death sentence. But with the rise in DO schools and the increasing applicant pool the inevitable future is that matching the specialty you want will become harder and harder.

 

[hellosnd]

Not the kind of trend I want to see as an incoming OMS1

You are fine. Ppl are always so doom and gloom. Just bust your ass and do well on boards and try and get research in. If you go to a reputable school, you will match fine.

If you look at the breakdown of match data. Higher end scorers weren’t as impacted (relatively speaking).

 

[FootballAndSkiing]

Being a DO is not a death sentence. But with the rise in DO schools and the increasing applicant pool the inevitable future is that matching the specialty you want will become harder and harder.

Im mostly fine with this. If you graduate medical school in the US you will become a doctor. But thats why they dont call it anesthesiologist school.

 

[Steve_Zissou]

https://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Charting-Outcomes-DO-Seniors-2022_Final.pdf

2020:
View attachment 357266
2022:
View attachment 357268

Rads felt like it would be a bloodbath during application season last year, and it seems like it was. Feel for my fellow DO homies this coming year.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Rads felt like it would be a bloodbath during application season last year, and it seems like it was. Feel for my fellow DO homies this coming year.

I wish there was data for the year I applied. It certainly seemed like it wasn’t the cakewalk I was promised.

But anecdotally this past year was much worse. One of the faculty at my program has been an academic attending since the 90s. She said this was the most competitive year ever.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Not the kind of trend I want to see as an incoming OMS1

FWIW, there was tons of doom and gloom when I started. The residency merger was just announced and 2020 was set up to be DO judgement day. That didn’t happen at all.

I will say incoming students need to hit the ground running though. You’ll find a lot of your classmates won’t even be looking into how to be competitive for residency until third year. Don’t do that. Get good grades and get lines on that CV!

 

[deleted688186]

FWIW, there was tons of doom and gloom when I started. The residency merger was just announced and 2020 was set up to be DO judgement day. That didn’t happen at all.

I will say incoming students need to hit the ground running though. You’ll find a lot of your classmates won’t even be looking into how to be competitive for residency until third year. Don’t do that. Get good grades and get lines on that CV!

It’s nice to hear this, thanks for the encouragement! My interests (I know they’re likely to change) are not in the ultra competitive specialties.. But seeing gas, rads, and even pm&r take a hit makes me anxious!

 

[Sidus1011]

It’s nice to hear this, thanks for the encouragement! My interests (I know they’re likely to change) are not in the ultra competitive specialties.. But seeing gas, rads, and even pm&r take a hit makes me anxious!

I'm just taking the news as it's important to have a back up that you can see yourself in that's less competitive. As the other poster said, we're going to school to become a physician, not solely to enter a specific specialty. We took an easier route of getting in compared to MD schools, it may not be fair, but it's just the name of the game.

Edit: Find it funny how the downvote came from a Neurosurgery or bust applicant lmao

 

[Steve_Zissou]

I wish there was data for the year I applied. It certainly seemed like it wasn’t the cakewalk I was promised.

But anecdotally this past year was much worse. One of the faculty at my program has been an academic attending since the 90s. She said this was the most competitive year ever.

Yeah, one of my mentors that is on a committee for choosing residents let me know that he was seeing more 260+ on step 1 than he had in the past 3 years that he had been helping screen residents. Out of 4 DOs at my school applying rads, 2 of us matched our top choice, one matched bottom choice, and one only matched prelim. Hopefully they’re implementing a better system for finding residents who are actually interested this year, which I feel would actually help DOs quite a bit. Maybe not, who knows?

 

[FarmerToDoctor]

At least IM, EM, and Neuro are looking up!

 

[gyngyn]

At least IM, EM, and Neuro are looking up!

Matching EM is easy. Getting a good EM job...not so much.

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[FutureDoctor5000]

looks bad… everything is way down compared to 2020. Even stuff like PMR?? Anesthesia and radiology too…school expansion is gonna make these numbers look even worse

Hopefully the system will wake up/correct itself and more residency spots are opened up

 

[DOVinciRobot]

and more residency spots are opened up

at which point things will get far worse.....

Swapping one problem for another is never a good solution or answer

 

[Neurocrit]

The number of USMD and DO seniors applying to neurology has gone up ~20-25% the last two years. The number of positions has only increased by ~11%. I'd say its getting much more popular.

Yep. I think the field is shedding the old "diagnose and adios" stereotype as students realize we actually have acute interventions and interesting new meds and devices for our other conditions.

 

[Steve_Zissou]

I wonder how long it will take for new DO school expansion to quickly outpace residency spot expansion. I wouldn’t be surprised if DO becomes de facto primary care in the future with a much smaller percentage becoming specialists.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

I wonder how long it will take for new DO school expansion to quickly outpace residency spot expansion. I wouldn’t be surprised if DO becomes de facto primary care in the future with a much smaller percentage becoming specialists.

But ironically the % of DO’s entering primary care has declined and continues to decline…

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

at which point things will get far worse.....

Swapping one problem for another is never a good solution or answer

How so? There is huge doctor shortage? I haven’t crunched the numbers but I am willing to be bet there’s a shortage of specialists as well in addition to primary care… Outside of say a few specialties like rad onc or EM.