Cleveland Clinic Lerner College of Medicine

[GTea]

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Just got a hold-list letter from them. The school hasn't been talked about much recently here, so I thought I'd bring it up.

I really liked the school - PBL (no lecture), small class size, phemomenal facility, TWO FACULTY ADVISORS for each student, etc.

I don't know what to think of Cleveland.

Anyway, I interviewed late and the dean told us straight out that he isn't sending out acceptances any more for now. So, I guess hold is good news.

 

[osar92]

yeah, i got that hold letter too... its the second one in like two weeks... waiting stinks, but i guess a hold is always better than a rejection

 

[SoulRFlare]

they'll start accepting people again after april 15th (not many i imagine) when they know who will be attending from their accept list...good luck!!

 

[theprizefighter]

Hi, All

I've been on hold since early Feb. I used to really think that Pitt took long by waiting until March but CCLM really strings out applicants by comparison. Oh, well.

theprizefighter

Pitt Med Class of 2008

 

[GTea]

Any of you guys really considering going there? Are you dead set on Pitt, prizefighter?

 

[theprizefighter]

GTea,

To me, Pitt is where it's at. CCLM is outstanding and all but it doesn't have the long track record of training outstanding medical students that Pitt does and the tuition at CCLM is much more costly compared to what I'd pay at Pitt. That said, I'll have all the respect in the world for anyone who gets their MD from the Cleveland Clinic.

tpf

 

[SoulRFlare]

GT...it's my top choice, but I know I won't get in because I don't have the robust research experience. I'm very much looking forward to the possiblity of doing my third year rotations there as a regular old case student...of course i'm sure the spots are limited and competition for rotations at the clinic will be fierce

 

[SoulRFlare]

Originally posted by theprizefighter
GTea,

To me, Pitt is where it's at. CCLM is outstanding and all but it doesn't have the long track record of training outstanding medical students that Pitt does and the tuition at CCLM is much more costly compared to what I'd pay at Pitt. That said, I'll have all the respect in the world for anyone who gets their MD from the Cleveland Clinic.

tpf

ah...i'm bitter about Pitt 😡 (got my big fat red X in the mail today...)
It's funny though. I'm the opposite--I probably would have picked Case over Pitt given the choice. I dunno...Case is where i've been picturing myself since my acceptance

 

[juddson]

I canceled my interview at Pitt today. It was a bit of struggle for me to do it, but I didn' think the three spots above Case that Pitt finds itself worth all the hassle and effort of moving and also of spending the money to go to the interview.

On another note, prizefighter, are you getting a break on tuition. I was under the impression that Pitt and Case had basically the same tuition.

Pitt's a great school. It was my "reach" school. But, I'll in Cleveland next year no matter what.

maybe time to start an official CWRU thread?

Judd

 

[exmike]

Originally posted by juddson
I canceled my interview at Pitt today. It was a bit of struggle for me to do it, but I didn' think the three spots above Case that Pitt finds itself worth all the hassle and effort of moving and also of spending the money to go to the interview.

On another note, prizefighter, are you getting a break on tuition. I was under the impression that Pitt and Case had basically the same tuition.

Pitt's a great school. It was my "reach" school. But, I'll in Cleveland next year no matter what.

maybe time to start an official CWRU thread?

Judd

Should we make it Case/CCLCM since we'll be interested in many of the same things in regards to location?

 

[juddson]

That's a good idea. I can add a few words about places to live, eat, shop, etc.

Judd

 

[SoulRFlare]

Originally posted by juddson
I canceled my interview at Pitt today. It was a bit of struggle for me to do it, but I didn' think the three spots above Case that Pitt finds itself worth all the hassle and effort of moving and also of spending the money to go to the interview.

On another note, prizefighter, are you getting a break on tuition. I was under the impression that Pitt and Case had basically the same tuition.

Pitt's a great school. It was my "reach" school. But, I'll in Cleveland next year no matter what.

maybe time to start an official CWRU thread?

Judd

It's seems that Case has gone down in the rankings in the past few years from a high point of 15. any insight into this Judd?

 

[juddson]

I did not know that Case was ever as high as 15. Not bad.

I predicted on the other thread that Case will fall to 31 this year and that Rochester will assume the 24 spot (or did I say 21, i can't recall now).

That is my prediction. On the other hand, case was one of only two schools this year to get a perfect accredidation score from the LCME. That committee is made up of deans from other schools. So, if they though Case was all that, I guess it would be reflect in the peer assessments. The other "perfect" school was U. Rochester.

We will see.

Judd

 

[SoulRFlare]

someone posted this ranking trend sheet...take it with a grain of salt because i don't know how accurate it is

 

[juddson]

Going from 17 to 22 must have hurt quite a bit. Still, nothing in comparison to the shellacking I am expecting them to take in this years rankings.

Judd

 

[exmike]

Originally posted by juddson
Going from 17 to 22 must have hurt quite a bit. Still, nothing in comparison to the shellacking I am expecting them to take in this years rankings.

Judd

judd are you just trying to outjinx the ranking or do you really think that? dont scare me 🙁

 

[juddson]

You know why. It's because that is PRECISELY where I am going. It's not a matter of outjinxing it. It is merely a reflection of the universal law by which my life is controlled - Judd cannot be permitted to be fully happy.

Judd

 

[exmike]

Originally posted by juddson
You know why. It's because that is PRECISELY where I am going. It's not a matter of outjinxing it. It is merely a reflection of the universal law by which my life is controlled - Judd cannot be permitted to be fully happy.

Judd

Thats good, b/c if you were ever fully happy, you might quit life. Life gives you just enough cookie to keep you going for more, but not enough to satisfy you!

 

[juddson]

You're not going to Drew, are you?


Judd

 

[theprizefighter]

juddson,

Pitt and Case do have the same tuition rate- for out of staters. As an in stater, though, I get a 5 k discount.

tpf

 

[GTea]

Since we're talking about case ranking and etc. how do you guys think CCLCM will rank? I don't know if they'll be ranked separately from Case, and even so, it'll probably take a few years to be ranked.

 

[exmike]

Originally posted by GTea
Since we're talking about case ranking and etc. how do you guys think CCLCM will rank? I don't know if they'll be ranked separately from Case, and even so, it'll probably take a few years to be ranked.

I dont think CCLCM will be separately ranked since the degree is granted by Case. Similar to how the Drew/UCLA and UCR/UCLA programs arent separate but are, and dont get separate rankings.

It will be interesting to see how they work out the numbers. Combined? Asterisk? who knows.

 

[rogersce]

so cleveland clinic is essentially the same as CWRU?? does this mean you only apply to CWRU and get admitted to either case or cleveland clinic, or are there 2 separate application procedures?

 

[SoulRFlare]

Originally posted by rogersce
so cleveland clinic is essentially the same as CWRU?? does this mean you only apply to CWRU and get admitted to either case or cleveland clinic, or are there 2 separate application procedures?

on the Case app, you check a box indicating that you'd like to apply to the college program as well. it may change in time, but that's how it worked this year.

 

[niveknat]

I dunno why y'all are sour about Case dropping in the rankings, cuz I see the complete opposite. With the new CCLCM program, Case Med's dean who is gonna take Case to a new level, and the perfect accreditation, I don't see how Case would drop. I can only see it rise 2 or 3 spots on USNews. Anxiously awaiting the ranking...😱

 

[wire]

I got the hold letter also. From what I understood at the interview, the Cleveland Clinic will soon break away from CWRU. I'm giving it two years and from the sound of it CCLCM will easily be top 10, if not top 5, but then again I could be wrong. I'm praying for an acceptance after april 15th!

 

[exmike]

Originally posted by wire
I got the hold letter also. From what I understood at the interview, the Cleveland Clinic will soon break away from CWRU. I'm giving it two years and from the sound of it CCLCM will easily be top 10, if not top 5, but then again I could be wrong. I'm praying for an acceptance after april 15th!

here is the thing. The CCF by itself only has about 60 million in NIH funding (near virginia commonwealth and wayne state). That would rank them in the 50's. Mayo, on the other hand, has over 120 million. As long as NIH dollars are 30% of the rankings, CCLCM wont be ranked in the top 10.

Secondly, how can there possibly be a residency directors score in the next five years? Not a residency program will see a CCLCM graduate until summer 2009, meaning that they wouldnt be able to submit subjective feedback until 2010, in time for the 2011 edition of USNews.

Since there is no way there can be an objective residency directors score until then, i dont see how USNews can possibly rank them independently until then.

This doesnt mean, however, that CCLCM wont be a phenomenal program. It will be. I believe in the future it will be one of the most sought after undergraduate medical education programs.

 

[juddson]

Wire expresses explicitly what I have always believed about the CCLCM progra, which is that it will break away from Case as soon as it is practicably feasable to do so. That would require a seperate accredidation (which means an initial probationary period) but i don't see why that would be a problem.

What IS interesting is that Wire got this impression by going to the Interview, whereas at my interview (and perhaps at the interviews of a few others on this forum) Hutzler said explicitly that they would NOT be splitting from Case, at least not for the next ten years.

This is an interesting discrepency, the voracity of which I do not question in the least. If what wire says is true (and I'm betting he is 100% right regarding his impressions) it reflects a change in the strategy that CCLCM has decided to pursue in "selling" the program. That is, at the beginning of the cycle when applications were low, CCLCM sensed an apprehension among students regarding the newness of the program and its lack of a trackrecord. By explicitly tieing the program to Case it was thought that this would relieve some fears in this regard. However, as applications grew (and word of mouth spread) I think CCLCM administration began to become more confident in the way the program was being received by applicants, and was therefore more willing to (a) lay bare its aspirations to become a top 5 med school, and (b) let go of the "training wheels" provided by the relationship with Case.

As I mentioned on a thread some time ago, I think CCLCM will split off as soon as possible.

That said, I agree with much of what exMike has said about the rankings. As long as NIH funding is a big part of USNEWS ranking (30%) I cannot fathom how CCLCM can expect to move into the top 15 with only 60 (or even 100) million in research anytime soon, particularly as residency director ratings will need 5 years to ramp up (and probably longer). Hence, there is an argument that can be made that CCLCM MUST continue its relationship with Case in order to move up in the rankings. Because case does something like $175M in NIH funding on its own, CCLCM needs to "ride" Case up the rankings ladder - It probably can't do it alone.

I'm interested to hear what Wire actually heard at the interview which suggests a split shortly down the road.

Judd

 

[wire]

I might be wrong, but that's the kind of impression I received. When we were asking questions about their affiliation with Case, both Hutzler and Fishleder (exec dean) seemed pretty apprehensive about the future of the medical school. If I remember correctly, someone asked about what will be going on a few years from now and the answer was pretty shaky. I agree completely that the college wanted to affiliate themselves with Case just to get the school going, but I feel that the reputation and response to the school has far exceeded what they expected and will eventually make the decision to break away. Just my thoughts. Either way, I am from Colorado, and have never ever seen a hospital like the Cleveland Clinic.

 

[GTea]

Okay, here is what I have to say about this breaking away from Case issue.

Cleveland Clinic and the University Hospital at Case have a long history of competing against one another. However, when there was an idea about developing a med school at CCF, Mr. Lerner (who the college is named after) backed it up financially. Lerner, however, demanded that CCF and Case work together on this project, in attempt to relieve the rivalry between the two. This is why CCLCM is CCLCM "at Case." Therefore, I don't see CCLCM breaking away from Case anytime soon because that is straight out breaking the original requirement.

With that said, this is what I felt interviewing at CCLCM and at Case: Everyone at CCLCM I spoke with, including the dean, kept emphasizing that the program is "distinct" from that of Case. However, at Case, they seemed eager to present CCLMC as just another part of Case. So, whether or not it is true, I can see why people suspect CCLMC's intention/desire to eventually break off from Case.

Personally, I think Case is a good school so there is no harm in CCLMC being associated with Case. However, I do think that the two programs are so different that CCLMC may deserve its independence.

 

[niveknat]

I think it's hard to say at this point what CCLCM will do, but I know that it will be successful whatever it does because they have the funding, the faculty, and the impetus to do well. It will be interesting to see my future classmates and what they have to say about it.

-KT

 

[W222]

The fear is that they are going to split, especially with Case's new focus.

 

[SoulRFlare]

If a split is already "inevidable" from the very beginning as some of you are implying, why would Case have inked the deal in the first place? it makes absolutely no sense, unless they were simply looking for a transient boost in the rankings--highly unlikely because once the split would be effected, they would slip back down. plus, there are a lot of folks at the clinic who are receiving faculty appointments at Case, further strengthening the alliance. this is not to say i don't think the clinic will split at some point...i just don't know.

and why is there this unspoken attitude that the Cleveland Clinic is "too good" for Case? Case is not Johns Hopkins, true, but it's no slouch either--there is more NIH research money flowing into there than all of the other biomedical institutions in ohio COMBINED (that includes the beloved ohio state)

some argue that the Clinic wants to shoot into the top 10, and that Case is weighing it down...nonsense. look at mayo: it's arguably a higher caliber Clinic than Cleveland, yet their med school is 21--very respectible in my opinion, but not "Big 10"

obviously these two institutions are more powerful together than either one alone. barring infighting and power issues which could ultimately undo the alliance, my sense is they will work together for at least 10-20 years

 

[juddson]

Originally posted by SoulRFlare


and why is there this unspoken attitude that the Cleveland Clinic is "too good" for Case? [/B]

THIS is the crux of the matter, isn't it. Two factors are in play here. First, there's no question that CCF is the big dog in Cleveland. It's an old rivalry started more than 80 years ago when a couple of UH docs started thier own hospital. The reality is that the rivalry is over - not because the two institutions have decided to bury the hatchet, but because there has been a clear and unambiguous winner. Meanwhile, UH is being eclipsed even from institutions like the Summa Hospitals out of Akron. A medical school affiliated with CCF can't help but reflect a bit more brilliantly than one affiliated with UH - the ability of Case students to rotate through CCF notwithstanding.

The second is that the facilities at CCF are so much nicer. I mean, there's really no comparison when comparing the learning spaces at CCLCM versus those at Case. I think this helps the impression that CCLCM is the more desirable place to be.

You're right there is a sort of "unspoken" attitude that CCLCM will rival Case. But there's no denying that it is palpable.

That said, some of this will come down to the stats of the class that will be entering CCLCM. If CCLCM manages to pull a 33 or better MCAT average, I think this will help ENORMOUSLY for recruiting next year, which will only help to strengthen the perceived greatness of the program. On the other hand, if it comes in at or below Case's average (what, 32, or there abouts), then that will be a different story.

The Master Plan at case says the following:

"Move the Health Service Building across Adelbert Road (near the One to One Fitness Center), and use its current site for a new medical school building"

and the map clearly shows a new medical school. But there is no indication when it will break ground. I think this new building is essential if Case wants to remain competitive. Quite frankly, debt load is getting out fo hand. You need something to convince prospects to want to come to your school. nice facilities goes a LONG way towards this goal, in my opinion. This, I think, is why Rochester is poised to make some big moves.

Anyway, I'm getting too far afield. Anyway, this still ignores the rsearch question. CCLCM needs Case as long as NIH money plays such an important part in the rankings.


Judd
ps. Case opened up two NEW research buildings this year alone.

 

[elias514]

I don't think Cleveland Clinic, its outstanding global reputation notwithstanding, will ever penetrate the USNews top 10 for a couple of reasons. First, the NIH funding of CCLCM isn't even in the same ballpark as the schools in the top 10; since NIH funding is a heavily weighted criterion in the research rankings, it is highly unlikely that CCLCM will ever join the ranks of UCSF, Columbia, etc. Second, the Cleveland Clinic may not be a truly great place for medical students to learn medicine for the same reason that Mayo isn't--attendings, residents, and fellows don't give med students a major slice of the "patient care pie" if you will. In other words, medical students at Mayo don't get much hands-on experience during clerkships and they lack adequate exposure to "bread and butter" medical scenarios, since most patients at Mayo are extraordinarily challenging cases (hence the large number of global referrals). I've been told that Mayo is an outstanding place for residents and fellows to train, but it's not that great for medical students (it's still very good, but not as good as the institutional reputation would lead you to believe). Cleveland Clinic is on par with Mayo in terms of global and national renown, which leads me to believe that CCLCM may not be a great place for medical students to train.

But then again, what do I know... I'm just another ******* pre-med. CCLCM may end up in the top 5 this year. Should be interesting.

Best of luck to all the CCLCM acceptees! Don't let my comments bother you at all. CCLCM is a kickass school, I just don't think that it'll be up there with Hopkins and Harvard.

 

[exmike]

Just a tangential thought.

Since CCF will necessarily absorb more CCLCM grads into their residency programs, and since the program is five years, CWRU c/o 2008 has the most to benefit from this alliance in terms of obtaining a CCF residency. Thoughts?

Another thing. I dont show the CCLCM/Case program is all that different from the UCSF/UC Berkeley 5 yr Joint Medical Program. There are 12 students and they spend three years of integrated study at UC Berkeley in basic sciences and graduate study in a research interest of choice. They do their clinicals at UCSF.

 

[W222]

Case may need the Clinic more than the other way around. Case wants to boost its ranking very quickly and they have done so by their affiliation with the Clinic. I think bad blood is brewing now that Case may be planning a five year med school thing or a setup like Duke. Why have two programs that do exactly the same thing? The Case-Clinic thing has been in the works for years but now with Case's focus shift there is some pondering of what the difference between the two tracks really is. Also, who really needs who in this deal.

 

[juddson]

exmike,

word on the street is that the residency positions at CCF are not as great as the reputation of the hospital would have you believe. Elias makes some good point, much of which I have also heard. CCF has world-class fellowship training, but I have a friend in a fellowship there and he said the residency program is not the best in terms of exposure because you are too far down the line, if you know what I mean.

I think the reality is that CCF (like Mayo) isn't really an "academic" hospital.

Judd

 

[juddson]

w222,

I'm not sure what you mean. As far as I know, while Case intends to put some PBL into the curriculum, I had not heard they were going to a five-year program.

And what is this about bad blood. Have you heard something specific?

Judd

 

[W222]

Maybe I will elaborate more at a later date. Perhaps after April 15th, if yah know what I mean.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Originally posted by juddson
On the other hand, case was one of only two schools this year to get a perfect accredidation score from the LCME. That committee is made up of deans from other schools. So, if they though Case was all that, I guess it would be reflect in the peer assessments. The other "perfect" school was U. Rochester.

We will see.

Judd

Pitt also got perfect LCME score the last time the LCME did a site visit (they visit 20-30 schools a year). I think it was last year, and only one other school got a perfect score then.

 

[wire]

anyone have an estimate of how many people are still on hold for remaining spaces? also, how many acceptances do you think they've given out already? 10 or so?

 

[W222]

I thought they offered around 20 of their spots. I am still on hold and I am not sure what is going to happen. I have heard so many rumors. It is not likely that many people who have acceptances there will turn them down. BUT I still hope some do.

 

[elias514]

Even though the clinical training for medical students at Cleveland Clinic will be more "hands-off" than other medical schools (esp. lesser ranked schools), I'm positive that grads of CCLCM will do incredibly well in the Match. There are plenty of big shot physicians on the faculty and research is a principal, mandatory component of the curriculum. Letters of recommendation from world renowned clinicians tend to help in the Match, I would imagine. Moreover, the ample research experience will make grads highly competitive for research-oriented residency programs, which tend to be the most competitive.

I still don't think, however, that CCLCM will penetrate the top ten on US News and World Report. I think it'll be like Mayo.

 

[SoulRFlare]

Originally posted by elias514
I still don't think, however, that CCLCM will penetrate the top ten on US News and World Report. I think it'll be like Mayo.

Sure it will...in fact, it'll knock michigan down to 45 or so on it's way up! 😉 (I'm a bit peeved at the big M at the moment...)
I do agree with you though, up to a point. But I think that as long as Case Western and the Ceveland Clinic have combined NIH numbers, (ie they remain partners) the Clinic has the potential to crack the top 10 within 20 or so year (perhaps sooner) I get the impression that Mayo, while a world class treatment center, doesn't really rake in the big NIH funds.

one point "against" the two clinic schools is they are (again my impression) going after the same pool of applicants as hopkins and harvard. i'd imagine that if given the choice, most applicants would choose harvard or hopkins over the clinics, if for no other reason than rank/prestiege of the med schools. (personally though, I'd rank Mayo and Cleveland up there with H squared...but who am I? a pion!!)

I, like everyone else on the interview trail (it seems) fell in love with the Clinic program, and would probably jump at the chance in a heartbeat, even though I'm not a big research guru at present. The big april 15th date will be here before we know it, and I want to wish all of you the best of luck!!

 

[duka]

There were about 35 names on the second look e-mail list. I'm not sure if all of those were acceptees, but I think they've come close to filling the class given those numbers.... not that we know how many people are going to actually go from the ones who are already accepted.

 

[juddson]

I have it on good word that the class has been fully offered at this point. How many will accept, I don't know.

Anyway, sucks to be us who have not been admitted yet. Still, for those in at Case, be happy. I am fairly happy and have no regrets.

Judd

 

[SoulRFlare]

Originally posted by juddson
I have it on good word that the class has been fully offered at this point. How many will accept, I don't know.

Anyway, sucks to be us who have not been admitted yet. Still, for those in at Case, be happy. I am fairly happy and have no regrets.

Judd

Yeah...i kind of figured they would have at least offered 32 spots. 🙁
anyway, I didn't know you were a lawyer judd. are you currently practicing while you take classes? are going to go into an area of health where you will also use your law degree, or are you going into a different direction entirely? I was a philosophy major in college and thought seriously about law school, but i guess it just didn't click for me. took me a year after graduation though to decide upon med school.

 

[juddson]

Nah,

i don't intend to mix them. personally, i don't see any practical way to do it anyway, and it would not add any sort of enjoyment to my life if I did (maybe more money, perhaps, but even that i doubt).

I majored in Philosophy in college as well (and did a masters in it too) before going to law school. Law schol for me was a default choice, having been spit out by the premed machine after the first semester of O-chem (If I had a dime for every law student I met who had also been "premed" and subsequently spit out by the machine, I'd be rich).

i did not practice while I took classes. My wife worked and I basically stayed home with our son. I went to class by taking my son to his grandmother's house. I barely EVER went to my post-bacc classes.

Working and going to class was impossible. I thought about staying on at my law firm while I did it, but it just wasn't possible. There simply was not enough time in teh day, and my firm had no interest in me going part time.

judd