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I'm a sophomore at a university and currently have two C's. One of them I am trying to see if I can bump it to a B because I got a 79.6. Stupid, right? However, for my current quarter, fall quarter, I'm estimated to have 3 C's. One of them I'm planning to not take the final because I want to retake the course. Our university currently changed the policy that with a C grade, you cannot retake the course anymore. Therefore, the smartest way is to not take the final because even if I get 100%, I'm not going to get a B. Overall, I'll have 4 C's and 1 F(will change because I'll be retaking it). I know the average to getting into vet school is around a 3.5 and I know it is only going to get harder and I still have a long way to go. Should I start looking for alternatives? Because I don't have any since being a veterinarian has been my dream career.
 
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Ashgirl

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If you don't take this final I'm assuming you will receive an F? I may be in the minority here.. but I would highly discourage not taking the final because there are several schools who will average grades instead of replacing them... so even if you would get an A you would only have a "C" in the eyes of the vet school.

As far as being "on-track" and looking at alternatives... have you started shadowing/volunteering at a vet clinic yet? If not I would highly suggest getting some experience to see if this is the career you are set on.
 
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Jess Monster

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Don't purposely fail, withdraw (if you can). A "W" is better than an "F" or an "E" or whatever the hell else schools like to brand a failed grade.

Are you at a school with a non-standard grading scale? Most places an 89.6 is a B+, not a C.
 

sarakittykat

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I agree with the above, don't purposely fail. It is definitely possible to recover from C's. An F is harder to recover from. That F may not be counted by your current school if you retake it, but vet schools will see it. I had several C's and a D from my freshman and sophomore years, and I was able to completely turn my GPA around without retaking those classes. Figure out what's not working about your study habits and make serious changes. Join study groups, watch tutoring videos online, visit your professor's office hours. Do your research when applying and figure out which schools will heavily weigh your last 45 hour GPA and science GPA. Having high GPAs in these categories can help make up for a low cumulative GPA.

Goodluck!

Also start doing other things to make your application stand out! Work on getting interesting experiences (both vet and non-vet related).
 
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If you don't take this final I'm assuming you will receive an F? I may be in the minority here.. but I would highly discourage not taking the final because there are several schools who will average grades instead of replacing them... so even if you would get an A you would only have a "C" in the eyes of the vet school.

As far as being "on-track" and looking at alternatives... have you started shadowing/volunteering at a vet clinic yet? If not I would highly suggest getting some experience to see if this is the career you are set on.
Well my current grade in that class is a 63% so that is a D, the thing is, if I get a good grade on the final (with curve) and I get a C, I cannot retake the grade. I did not know that there are schools that average original grades to the retaken grades, do you know what schools do or how I can find out? And the past two years, I have interned and then work as an assistant technician at a vet hospital.
 
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Don't purposely fail, withdraw (if you can). A "W" is better than an "F" or an "E" or whatever the hell else schools like to brand a failed grade.

Are you at a school with a non-standard grading scale? Most places an 89.6 is a B+, not a C.
What is a non-standard grading scale?
 

Gwenevre

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Kind of a sidebar, but what is the reasoning behind schools not letting you retake a grade? It's not like you're re-taking it for free. You're paying for an additional class.
 
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Kind of a sidebar, but what is the reasoning behind schools not letting you retake a grade? It's not like you're re-taking it for free. You're paying for an additional class.
To be honest, I don't know. Even my counselor and professors think that it was a stupid idea to change the policy.
 

twelvetigers

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What the hell is up with schools not letting students retake courses with a C? If the student wants to feckin' pay for it again and take it again, why the fuuuu does the school care? I'm baffled.
 
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DogtorCK

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Whether they will see the re-take depends on your school. Most of the time it won't factor into your GPA but when you submit your official transcripts to VMCAS it will show Fall 2015 F and then it will have a note saying "retaken" and then it will show the class again in the spring (or whatever semester you retake it) with the new grade. So, it won't factor into your GPA with the school but it will likely be on your transcript and therefore all of the schools you apply to will see it and VMCAS will calculate it into your GPA
 

VetToBe585

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You can also retake the course at a different school and the vet schools will average the two, even if your current school won't allow you to.
 

Cephal0pod

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Whether they will see the re-take depends on your school. Most of the time it won't factor into your GPA but when you submit your official transcripts to VMCAS it will show Fall 2015 F and then it will have a note saying "retaken" and then it will show the class again in the spring (or whatever semester you retake it) with the new grade. So, it won't factor into your GPA with the school but it will likely be on your transcript and therefore all of the schools you apply to will see it and VMCAS will calculate it into your GPA

Yep. I think it would be better GPA-wise to take the C, then move forward and do well on all other courses vs. taking an F and retaking.
 
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DogtorCK

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Agreed. ESPECIALLY if this is a science pre-req. If you can withdraw, that would be your best bet.
 

pinkpuppy9

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What the hell is up with schools not letting students retake courses with a C? If the student wants to feckin' pay for it again and take it again, why the fuuuu does the school care? I'm baffled.
My undergrad was like this. No repeats unless you failed the course. The reasoning behind it is that for most 'traditionally difficult' science/pre-professional courses there, it was fairly difficult to get a seat. Most courses were completely full within minutes of opening for registration. They didn't want to delay other students from taking the course if pre-professional students kept repeating. That, and you were capped at repeating 20 credits. I don't think it was a good system, but I'm in vet school so I don't care now :p
 

LetItSnow

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[Warning: Tough love message. If you can't handle it, don't read. Fair warning.]

I don't buy it. If vet med is your "dream" then it should motivate you. And it's clearly not, because you're slacking off and getting 3 C's and an F.

Either there is something going on in life and you should take some time off of school, or you don't really want to do the work necessary to become a veterinarian, which means it isn't as much of a dream as you thought.

Time to start trying. Undergrad isn't so hard that 3 C's and an F are reasonable.

Do you have any hope? Sure. There are some vet schools that are more concerned with your last-45-credit GPA and your pre-req GPA, both of which you could still do very well at. You could easily get a 4.0 for the one, and probably at least a 3.5 for the other. At somewhere like UMN that would make you a great academic candidate.

But you'd have to straighten out whatever is causing you to do so poorly and turn it around now. If it's just plain laziness with no effort ... then I wonder how truly motivated you are by this career. If it's poor study habits ... then talk to your school and get help. If it's poor self-realization - i.e. you THINK you're studying but you're really not, and you're out every Fri/Sat night with friends, and sleeping in Sat and Sun morning - then it's time to suck it up and actually start trying and maybe put 75% of your social life on hold. If there's some major problem in life (depression, financial, relationship, whatever), then maybe you need to take a break from school. But whatever it is, you're at a major fork in the road: start getting A's with a few B's thrown in, or find another dream.
 
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WildZoo

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What the hell is up with schools not letting students retake courses with a C? If the student wants to feckin' pay for it again and take it again, why the fuuuu does the school care? I'm baffled.
I think you can retake all you want, they just won't replace the grade.

Or maybe I'm wrong and you're literally barred from registering for the class again. Idk. I technically took the same lit class twice, and got an A both times.
 
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deleted676737

What the hell is up with schools not letting students retake courses with a C? If the student wants to feckin' pay for it again and take it again, why the fuuuu does the school care? I'm baffled.
I honestly don't understand it, either. Here (at a state school), we're pretty much allowed free reign in regard to repeating courses. Heck, you could retake a class you got a B in for an A if you really wanted to, and it would still be replaced on the official transcript. I'd never -- prior to coming onto SDN -- heard of schools restricting retakes like this. It just makes me wonder... is it really that common a policy?
 
B

bcc0627

Hi everyone! I am new to this, so please bear with me. I am thinking of applying to vet school this upcoming summer ('16) and I am curious about my chances. Right now, I am afraid I am just a little too "average" and I know that I am definitely lacking diversity within my experiences. I just kind of wanted to know what you guys think! I am a florida resident, so I'm keeping my eye on UF. i was always planning on taking a gap year, (i am a junior currently), but for some reason this semester, I realized that I didn't want to take a gap year and i feel like i am scrambling and behind where i should be in order to be a competitive applicant. any input from anyone is greatly valued and appreciated!! :)

Overall GPA: 3.8
Science: 3.8
Last 45: 3.82
GRE: taking it sometime this spring!

Vet:
250 hours volunteering at the UF small animal hospital in various departments (ICU, PCW, Radiology)
150 shadowing the vet from my hometown
100 SAH i just got a job at (I am a technician)
*I am hoping to get my veterinary hours to about 1,000 by the time i actually have to apply

Animal:
350 hours at a dog grooming place as a bather
250 hours at a vet's office (i worked in the kennel)
8 hours grooming retired horses

Non-animal employment:
I worked for 5 years as a gymnastics coach

Research:
80 hours working with rodents studying activity based anorexia (i attended lab meetings, assisted with general maintenance, observed and noted their food intake post injections and performed an ovariectomy on a rat)
*it wasn't that in-depth, but it was good insight into research based positions, and i learned it wasn't my thing really

Extracirriculars:
Flute choir for 2 years
orchestra for a semester
Alpha Zeta Honors Fraternity
*i found it really hard to become involved in things in college, i found myself becoming really shy and wanting to avoid activities with a lot of people as bad as that sounds
 
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bcc0627

You need to post this info in the "What are my chances?" thread up top the forum.
Do you have any input batsenecal? I have posted I think twice and that thread and no one said anything lol. Any input would be appreciated!!!
 

bluenose

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Hi everyone! I am new to this, so please bear with me. I am thinking of applying to vet school this upcoming summer ('16) and I am curious about my chances. Right now, I am afraid I am just a little too "average" and I know that I am definitely lacking diversity within my experiences. I just kind of wanted to know what you guys think! I am a florida resident, so I'm keeping my eye on UF. i was always planning on taking a gap year, (i am a junior currently), but for some reason this semester, I realized that I didn't want to take a gap year and i feel like i am scrambling and behind where i should be in order to be a competitive applicant. any input from anyone is greatly valued and appreciated!! :)

Overall GPA: 3.8
Science: 3.8
Last 45: 3.82
GRE: taking it sometime this spring!

Vet:
250 hours volunteering at the UF small animal hospital in various departments (ICU, PCW, Radiology)
150 shadowing the vet from my hometown
100 SAH i just got a job at (I am a technician)
*I am hoping to get my veterinary hours to about 1,000 by the time i actually have to apply

Animal:
350 hours at a dog grooming place as a bather
250 hours at a vet's office (i worked in the kennel)
8 hours grooming retired horses

Non-animal employment:
I worked for 5 years as a gymnastics coach

Research:
80 hours working with rodents studying activity based anorexia (i attended lab meetings, assisted with general maintenance, observed and noted their food intake post injections and performed an ovariectomy on a rat)
*it wasn't that in-depth, but it was good insight into research based positions, and i learned it wasn't my thing really

Extracirriculars:
Flute choir for 2 years
orchestra for a semester
Alpha Zeta Honors Fraternity
*i found it really hard to become involved in things in college, i found myself becoming really shy and wanting to avoid activities with a lot of people as bad as that sounds
I think you have pretty good chances since your GPA is very strong and although you don't have a huge amount of hours or a ton of diversity I do think you potentially have enough to get you in (speaking off my experience of having around 500-600 hours and getting in. And then just make sure your GRE is around or above the average and have a good personal statement that has been looked over by hopefully more than one person. Good luck!

Edit: also if possible maybe get in some other humanitarian volunteering like local charities or something because it know that can be a good unique extracurricular :) and maybe mention the skills you've learned as a gym coach or being a musician because that's pretty unique as well !!
 

wheelin2vetmed

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You need to post this info in the "What are my chances?" thread up top the forum.

I always see you making this response. @dyachei, can you promote batsen to an official "Post in the What Are My Chances? Thread" Officer?
 
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battie

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I always see you making this response. @dyachei, can you promote batsen to an official "Post in the What Are My Chances? Thread" Officer?

Honestly, if I remember correctly, I had a long, bad day that day from my RAs and residents not following directions at all, whatsoever. So seeing the post, I just automatically was like, "this is what you do."
 

LetItSnow

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Honestly, if I remember correctly, I had a long, bad day that day from my RAs and residents not following directions at all, whatsoever. So seeing the post, I just automatically was like, "this is what you do."

Well. It IS what they should do. Nothing wrong with redirecting people to the right thread. :)
 

LetItSnow

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Hi everyone! I am new to this, so please bear with me. I am thinking of applying to vet school this upcoming summer ('16) and I am curious about my chances. Right now, I am afraid I am just a little too "average" and I know that I am definitely lacking diversity within my experiences. I just kind of wanted to know what you guys think! I am a florida resident, so I'm keeping my eye on UF. i was always planning on taking a gap year, (i am a junior currently), but for some reason this semester, I realized that I didn't want to take a gap year and i feel like i am scrambling and behind where i should be in order to be a competitive applicant. any input from anyone is greatly valued and appreciated!! :)

Overall GPA: 3.8
Science: 3.8
Last 45: 3.82
GRE: taking it sometime this spring!

Vet:
250 hours volunteering at the UF small animal hospital in various departments (ICU, PCW, Radiology)
150 shadowing the vet from my hometown
100 SAH i just got a job at (I am a technician)
*I am hoping to get my veterinary hours to about 1,000 by the time i actually have to apply

Animal:
350 hours at a dog grooming place as a bather
250 hours at a vet's office (i worked in the kennel)
8 hours grooming retired horses

Non-animal employment:
I worked for 5 years as a gymnastics coach

Research:
80 hours working with rodents studying activity based anorexia (i attended lab meetings, assisted with general maintenance, observed and noted their food intake post injections and performed an ovariectomy on a rat)
*it wasn't that in-depth, but it was good insight into research based positions, and i learned it wasn't my thing really

Extracirriculars:
Flute choir for 2 years
orchestra for a semester
Alpha Zeta Honors Fraternity
*i found it really hard to become involved in things in college, i found myself becoming really shy and wanting to avoid activities with a lot of people as bad as that sounds

You already know the right thread to go to. But:

I think your vet hours are on the low end. You noted you hope to get to 1000, which would be much more typical. I applied with less than that, and I sorta ballpark 500 as the lowest you really want to apply with (though there are end-of-the-bell-curve people getting in with lower), but 1000 is probably a much more comfortable number.

The coaching thing is neat.

All in all I don't see any huge issues. Not a lot of leadership demonstrated ... the coaching really is the only thing. Might not hurt you to become more deeply involved in something at school in a leadership role. I get it, you're shy. Time to overcome that. Be bold.
 

stealthoscope

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To the OP, LetItSnow pretty much covered it, but I think you really need to sit down and think about what is causing you to get so many Cs. I know that intro bio courses can be weed out courses but you should be able to do better than this, and if you can't figure out what to change, you will not have a chance at vet school. Disregarding getting in, you would be faced with much harder courses and you would need to be able to handle it, which right now you clearly cannot. People here are happy to give advice on figuring out what to do, but a big part of this has to be from you realizing what you need to change.
 

JJ1019

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What the hell is up with schools not letting students retake courses with a C? If the student wants to feckin' pay for it again and take it again, why the fuuuu does the school care? I'm baffled.
I'm just guessing and playing a bit of devil's advocate, but perhaps as one post said it's because the classes are already full. There are plenty of people like me who wanted into a class for a pre-req and could land an A and move forward getting barred from entering by undergrads who are out drinking all night and barely landing a C or dropping the course after the first month. Also what message does it show if you can retake anything you want and replace the grade? I get re-take and average might be in the cards for certain situations, but retake and replace is too much hand holding. This is college, not high school. Allowing a student to take a class, see all the tests, homework, etc then retake it and replace a grade screws with the learning balance within the course for the other students. If someone graduates with a 4.0 in 4 years and another graduates with a 4.0 in 6 years because they retook every class they didn't land an A in and the school replaced all the grades, you see two 4.0 students and only 1 highly qualified candidate, IMO. I can't see a case where remove and replace is fair to those who took the class and did well the first time.
 

DVMDream

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I'm just guessing and playing a bit of devil's advocate, but perhaps as one post said it's because the classes are already full. There are plenty of people like me who wanted into a class for a pre-req and could land an A and move forward getting barred from entering by undergrads who are out drinking all night and barely landing a C or dropping the course after the first month. Also what message does it show if you can retake anything you want and replace the grade? I get re-take and average might be in the cards for certain situations, but retake and replace is too much hand holding. This is college, not high school. Allowing a student to take a class, see all the tests, homework, etc then retake it and replace a grade screws with the learning balance within the course for the other students. If someone graduates with a 4.0 in 4 years and another graduates with a 4.0 in 6 years because they retook every class they didn't land an A in and the school replaced all the grades, you see two 4.0 students and only 1 highly qualified candidate, IMO. I can't see a case where remove and replace is fair to those who took the class and did well the first time.

The vet schools still see the original grade. It isn't like the first attempt just vanishes into thin air and they never know about it. The "grade replacement" is done internally. So the vet school sees that you took the same course twice and got a D once and an A the second time. The vet school then either 1. averages the two grades or 2. replaces the D for the A. But they still see the original grade.




Honestly can't think of anything else to say to you except... life isn't fair... +pity+
 
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Minnerbelle

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I'm just guessing and playing a bit of devil's advocate, but perhaps as one post said it's because the classes are already full. There are plenty of people like me who wanted into a class for a pre-req and could land an A and move forward getting barred from entering by undergrads who are out drinking all night and barely landing a C or dropping the course after the first month. Also what message does it show if you can retake anything you want and replace the grade? I get re-take and average might be in the cards for certain situations, but retake and replace is too much hand holding. This is college, not high school. Allowing a student to take a class, see all the tests, homework, etc then retake it and replace a grade screws with the learning balance within the course for the other students. If someone graduates with a 4.0 in 4 years and another graduates with a 4.0 in 6 years because they retook every class they didn't land an A in and the school replaced all the grades, you see two 4.0 students and only 1 highly qualified candidate, IMO. I can't see a case where remove and replace is fair to those who took the class and did well the first time.

Who is saying you should be able to replace a grade? That's not how it's calculated for vet school.

I get that if classes are full, schools should prioritize first time takers. But why can't others retake it if there's room? There are ways to make it so that you are only allowed to "add" these courses after registration or on the first day of classes. What is wrong if someone wanted to really give it another try and learn material that they didn't the first time for whatever reason. And why do you assume that a person who got a C was because they were partying? That's a rude assumption.
 
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JJ1019

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Who is saying you should be able to replace a grade? That's not how it's calculated for vet school.

I get that if classes are full, schools should prioritize first time takers. But why can't others retake it if there's room? There are ways to make it so that you are only allowed to "add" these courses after registration or on the first day of classes. What is wrong if someone wanted to really give it another try and learn material that they didn't the first time for whatever reason. And why do you assume that a person who got a C was because they were partying? That's a rude assumption.

I'm not saying everyone who gets a C is out partying. A "C" after all is average on the bell curve, but I'm personally looking for someone who did better than a bucket full of average when I look for a vet or a doctor. One or two isn't the end of the world, life happens. Good grades also don't guarantee good vets. I'd rather see someone get C's their first year and show an upward trend in the higher level courses than see someone get B-'s all the way through.

I'm saying that far too many times in impacted school systems good students don't get a shot because it's full and some of those students ARE out partying. I've had kids show up still drunk to tests. I've spent the last year begging to get in each class I needed on the first day, so I'm familiar with the first day class registration method. In some systems, even students taking it for a 2nd time get priority over non-degree seeking students looking to take pre-reqs. Non-degree students in some states aren't even allowed to register, it's all begging on day 1 of class (which turns into day 3 or 5 because the prof won't give you an add code until the 2nd week). I've even had homework due before they'll give me an add code.

There are still some school systems that remove and replace grades for classes that are retaken. As long as the vet school can see this and make their own decision on how to approach it, that's fine. My concern was that if a remove/replace was done and didn't properly show on a transcript it'd be hard to know. I've seen transcripts where I couldn't tell a kid retook a class. I just don't agree with calculating a GPA based on a remove/replace. I absolutely think if you'd like to pay to retake a class to average the result and there is room after the registration dust settles, take it. You can never learn too much. If you are just trying to refresh knowledge though, there's always the audit option if you aren't looking to change your grade.
 

JJ1019

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I'm a sophomore at a university and currently have two C's. One of them I am trying to see if I can bump it to a B because I got a 79.6. Stupid, right? However, for my current quarter, fall quarter, I'm estimated to have 3 C's. One of them I'm planning to not take the final because I want to retake the course. Our university currently changed the policy that with a C grade, you cannot retake the course anymore. Therefore, the smartest way is to not take the final because even if I get 100%, I'm not going to get a B. Overall, I'll have 4 C's and 1 F(will change because I'll be retaking it). I know the average to getting into vet school is around a 3.5 and I know it is only going to get harder and I still have a long way to go. Should I start looking for alternatives? Because I don't have any since being a veterinarian has been my dream career.

With regards to this original post. I would never intentionally fail a course, but I have seen people do it. I personally think a "W" looks better than an "F". I agree with the suggestion of doing some soul searching as to why your grades are low. I saw the original date of the post and reference to a fall quarter, so I suspect you made a decision? What did you end up doing?
 

DVMDream

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I'm not saying everyone who gets a C is out partying. A "C" after all is average on the bell curve, but I'm personally looking for someone who did better than a bucket full of average when I look for a vet or a doctor. One or two isn't the end of the world, life happens. Good grades also don't guarantee good vets. I'd rather see someone get C's their first year and show an upward trend in the higher level courses than see someone get B-'s all the way through.

And exactly how are you going to know what kinds of grades your vet got in either undergrad or vet school?

Heck, once in vet school, good luck on that whole not getting C's thing. And if you think even a bunch of B-'s are bad, vet school will sure teach you to celebrate receiving even a passing grade.

You're just mad because something isn't fair to you and are blaming that unfairness on people who actually aren't contributing to the class size that much. Life isn't fair, you'll get your pre-reqs done eventually. Quit worrying about what other people are doing and how it affects or doesn't affect you and focus on yourself.
 
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JJ1019

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Many vet schools use grades and standardize tests as a way to attempt to determine if you will be able to handle the rigorous course load that you'll see in vet school. Is it perfect? No. But I do want the best and the brightest going into vet school, dental school, med school, law school, etc. "Best" is a subjective term, but if you can't handle the coursework in undergrad, unless something changes you won't make it through vet school. The field won't advance if we take all average all the time. My only point here is that I would take someone who passed the classes the first time over someone who had to retake 5 or 6 or 7 key courses.

And exactly how are you going to know what kinds of grades your vet got in either undergrad or vet school? Heck, once in vet school, good luck on that whole not getting C's thing. And if you think even a bunch of B-'s are bad, vet school will sure teach you to celebrate receiving even a passing grade.

I'm not speaking of C's in vet school, that's a whole different can of worms. No, there's no way to know what my vet got in school, but I know that if we don't lower the standards to get in, that there is a certain understanding of what it took to get there and get out with a DVM after your name. There is the saying, "Do you know what they call the guy who graduated bottom of his class from med school? Doctor..." That doesn't mean he's a good one. So much more goes into it than just that. I'm strictly speaking undergrad grades and being a metric for determining eligibility and potential success in professional school. If the standards are high we increase the chance that those exiting the program will be successful contributors to the field.

You're just mad because something isn't fair to you and are blaming that unfairness on people who actually aren't contributing to the class size that much. Life isn't fair, you'll get your pre-reqs done eventually. Quit worrying about what other people are doing and how it affects or doesn't affect you and focus on yourself.

I'm not sure why it turned hostile. Am I concerned that non-degree students are treated poorly? Of course, and I'm trying to pave a smoother road for those behind me. In some schools even if you wanted a 2nd BS they aren't taking applicants that already have a degree. Sure I'm frustrated at the system, but I hardly think I'm taking it out or blaming anyone here for that. My issue is an administrative issue, not an issue with the students. I was simply pointing out the other side of the issue that hadn't been mentioned. I'm sorry you don't agree with my position on the issue.
I got my pre-reqs. I have transcripts from 8 different schools in 6 different states, but I got them. If what someone else is doing affects me, then I need to know enough about it so I can understand how to work around it and adjust my approach. I'm not 21-22, "eventually" isn't good enough. If 99% of the applicants getting into vet school have 4,000 hours of vet experience, then what those people are doing affects me...It means I need to step up my game and try to match that. Unfortunately applications are all about how you stack up to the guy/gal on the page before/after you. It works that way with resumes for jobs too.

On the issue of grade replacement (true replacement, not average) I think it's unfair to anyone who ends up with a worse grade than the kid that failed the first time but got an A the second. I could argue life isn't fair and the grade you get should be the grade you get...but I'm not. I realize that life sometimes gets in the way and you need a second chance.
I know of a doctor who failed a lab practical in med school because he had a documented seizure during the test. He had to retake the whole course and is lucky it wasn't the end of his career...fair? No. Of course life isn't fair, but there's no reason to go out of our way to make things un-fair, but that's just my 2 cents.
 

battie

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I'm just guessing and playing a bit of devil's advocate, but perhaps as one post said it's because the classes are already full. There are plenty of people like me who wanted into a class for a pre-req and could land an A and move forward getting barred from entering by undergrads who are out drinking all night and barely landing a C or dropping the course after the first month. Also what message does it show if you can retake anything you want and replace the grade? I get re-take and average might be in the cards for certain situations, but retake and replace is too much hand holding. This is college, not high school. Allowing a student to take a class, see all the tests, homework, etc then retake it and replace a grade screws with the learning balance within the course for the other students. If someone graduates with a 4.0 in 4 years and another graduates with a 4.0 in 6 years because they retook every class they didn't land an A in and the school replaced all the grades, you see two 4.0 students and only 1 highly qualified candidate, IMO. I can't see a case where remove and replace is fair to those who took the class and did well the first time.

Many vet schools use grades and standardize tests as a way to attempt to determine if you will be able to handle the rigorous course load that you'll see in vet school. Is it perfect? No. But I do want the best and the brightest going into vet school, dental school, med school, law school, etc. "Best" is a subjective term, but if you can't handle the coursework in undergrad, unless something changes you won't make it through vet school. The field won't advance if we take all average all the time. My only point here is that I would take someone who passed the classes the first time over someone who had to retake 5 or 6 or 7 key courses.

I'm not speaking of C's in vet school, that's a whole different can of worms. No, there's no way to know what my vet got in school, but I know that if we don't lower the standards to get in, that there is a certain understanding of what it took to get there and get out with a DVM after your name. There is the saying, "Do you know what they call the guy who graduated bottom of his class from med school? Doctor..." That doesn't mean he's a good one. So much more goes into it than just that. I'm strictly speaking undergrad grades and being a metric for determining eligibility and potential success in professional school. If the standards are high we increase the chance that those exiting the program will be successful contributors to the field.

I'm not sure why it turned hostile. Am I concerned that non-degree students are treated poorly? Of course, and I'm trying to pave a smoother road for those behind me. In some schools even if you wanted a 2nd BS they aren't taking applicants that already have a degree. Sure I'm frustrated at the system, but I hardly think I'm taking it out or blaming anyone here for that. My issue is an administrative issue, not an issue with the students. I was simply pointing out the other side of the issue that hadn't been mentioned. I'm sorry you don't agree with my position on the issue.

I got my pre-reqs. I have transcripts from 8 different schools in 6 different states, but I got them. If what someone else is doing affects me, then I need to know enough about it so I can understand how to work around it and adjust my approach. I'm not 21-22, "eventually" isn't good enough. If 99% of the applicants getting into vet school have 4,000 hours of vet experience, then what those people are doing affects me...It means I need to step up my game and try to match that. Unfortunately applications are all about how you stack up to the guy/gal on the page before/after you. It works that way with resumes for jobs too.

On the issue of grade replacement (true replacement, not average) I think it's unfair to anyone who ends up with a worse grade than the kid that failed the first time but got an A the second. I could argue life isn't fair and the grade you get should be the grade you get...but I'm not. I realize that life sometimes gets in the way and you need a second chance.
I know of a doctor who failed a lab practical in med school because he had a documented seizure during the test. He had to retake the whole course and is lucky it wasn't the end of his career...fair? No. Of course life isn't fair, but there's no reason to go out of our way to make things un-fair, but that's just my 2 cents.

So, I have a couple points to show with this and the different colored statements are where I'm getting my opinion.

People change throughout college. I'm most definitely not the same person I was when I stepped into my first undergrad class. So those that get crappy grades the first year or two (including the partiers) should be allowed to retake those classes because they might be more mature/have a better life situation/more focused/whatever. It makes no difference to anyone else but them. The message that retaking courses for a better grade and the institution replaces that grade shows that people can earn a second chance. If someone freshman year partied all the time and took cell bio and got a D, then figured their life out over that next summer and came in to retake it for an A, I'd congratulate them for 1) getting an A in our cell bio class and 2) for turning their life around and reassessing their priorities. Just because they took the course once and saw the tests/homework/whatever, does not mean they have an advantage over the other students. It could be argued that students who got Ds and Fs didn't learn much or anything and are at the same level as someone coming into the class fresh. Someone with a C has less of an advantage than those with a higher IQ and who are naturally gifted in school and doesn't really have an arguable advantage than the average student in the class (because, in theory, the average student would receive a C).

There's no reason to think a student who has to retake a few courses is any worse of a student or person than a person who did not. I retook organic chem I, genetics, developmental biology, physics I and II, and biochem. Those grades were F to B-, C to B, D to C and C to C (for the last three). Those definitely are not good retake grades (with the obvious o chem exception), but I also did pretty well in most of my upper division chem and bio classes otherwise (A in biochem II and around a 3.5 in my upper division sciences). So what should vet schools view me as. I did pretty good in a a lot of upper division courses they don't require (biochem II, mammology, ornithology, bio of cancer, parasitology, etc), but didn't do great in a chunk of the classes they require (all those retakes). They are going to look at the courses they require over the courses they don't. Doing well in my upper divisions only helped me so much. So saying that people should not retake prerequisite courses and just do better in upper division courses is not sound advice over retaking the courses and doing well in those retakes.

This one really ground my gears: There is the saying, "Do you know what they call the guy who graduated bottom of his class from med school? Doctor..." That doesn't mean he's a good one. So much more goes into it than just that. That doctor is still a doctor and passed med school!! There is no reason to think otherwise. You even stated, "So much more goes into it than just that." That's the point in of itself! There's more to being a doctor besides class rank. There's patient interactions, interactions with your peers and superiors. Just because you graduate bottom of your class doesn't signify anything on your capabilities of being a doctor. If I found out my doctor was the bottom of her class, I wouldn't care because she's the only one who figured out why I randomly faint and gave me options to have the best quality of life. She helps me maintain a healthier life. At this point, I wouldn't care what her rank is; I'm just glad she's my doctor.

I've taken probably 30 credits as a non-degree seeking student and have never felt I was treated poorly. I understand that an institution's main concern is their students that are trying to enter grad/professional school or the work/military force. Non-degree seeking students don't add to those statistics, so they don't help generate long term money like famous alumni do. That makes complete sense to me and I worked around it. I never didn't get into a class because I planned ahead and knew the school wasn't out to help me (or hinder me).

"I think it's unfair to anyone who ends up with a worse grade than the kid that failed the first time but got an A the second" This doesn't even make sense to me. If someone got an F in organic in the same class as me and got an A the second time (where I got a B), I would feel happy for them. Good for them! They earned that A, regardless of their first grade.
 
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JJ1019

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Batsenecal,

People change throughout college.
Let me clarify before everyone gets all up in arms. I'm concerned that people are defensive when they don't have to be. I don't think less of anyone who has to repeat a class....chill out guys. People change. YES. Absolutely. I have NO issue letting someone retake a class, but MY OPINION is that it should be averaged, not replaced. I'm allowed to that opinion. If you don't like it, that's your opinion. We can agree to disagree.

Doing well in my upper divisions only helped me so much. So saying that people should not retake prerequisite courses and just do better in upper division courses is not sound advice over retaking the courses and doing well in those retakes.
When I said upper division I meant organic chem, biochem, genetics, cell biology, etc (still pre-reqs). I meant the classes many schools require you take at a 4 year school or that require other science pre-reqs. If you don't do well in Gen Chem (me) but do well in Organic Chem, which many people seem to think is a more difficult course then that could show you are moving upward. Congrats on your retake grade in OChem btw. I do agree with your statement that taking upper level courses that are not pre-reqs and doing well won't help you versus retaking poorly scored pre-reqs, at least not your GPA. Though it does show growth, you have to get past the # on the paper to get an interview. If you have to choose, retake the GPA pre-req buster.


This one really ground my gears: There is the saying, "Do you know what they call the guy who graduated bottom of his class from med school? Doctor..." That doesn't mean he's a good one. So much more goes into it than just that. That doctor is still a doctor and passed med school!! Yes, they call everyone who graduates doctor. But I have known top of their class doctors who are terrible physicians and lower scoring docs who are excellent and truly change lives. What I was trying to confer was that high standards to get into school increases the chances that the individual will be able to handle the coursework. High standards in professional school means anyone who graduates DOES deserve that designation, because we know what's required. There is so much more that goes into being a good doctor though that involves interacting with people, that you can't guarantee it using grades alone.... My only concern was that grade replacement may mask the future inability to adequately handle the rigor of vet school. Many high quality residency positions are determined by class rank (for med school, I can't speak for vet). So in some sense it does matter where you are in the class. It's not likely your neurosurgeon was bottom of their class. And that's okay. That bottom of the class guy/gal is probably a great GP or other.

I've taken probably 30 credits as a non-degree seeking student and have never felt I was treated poorly. I understand that an institution's main concern is their students that are trying to enter grad/professional school or the work/military force. Non-degree seeking students don't add to those statistics, so they don't help generate long term money like famous alumni do. That makes complete sense to me and I worked around it. I never didn't get into a class because I planned ahead and knew the school wasn't out to help me (or hinder me).
I found this interesting. Not every state and school system are the same. My goal was to enter professional school yet I still didn't get into the courses. I tried to plan ahead but since I wasn't allowed to register and needed certain pre-reqs before I could take others, I was stuck waiting until 1 week into class to find out if I was going to get the class or not. This was not due to lack of planning on my part, just how the system was set up. I often crashed the same class on multiple campuses to try to increase my chances.

"I think it's unfair to anyone who ends up with a worse grade than the kid that failed the first time but got an A the second" This doesn't even make sense to me. If someone got an F in organic in the same class as me and got an A the second time (where I got a B), I would feel happy for them. Good for them! They earned that A, regardless of their first grade.

Scenario: You take OChem at college A, your friend Ochem at college B. You get a C, he gets an F. You don't retake it. He does retake it (essentially the same tests, HWs, etc so its significantly easier) and gets an A, which replaces his F (no evidence of F). This is what I'm saying to me, doesn't feel fair. To others it obviously seems totally fair. That's okay.

 

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Scenario: You take OChem at college A, your friend Ochem at college B. You get a C, he gets an F. You don't retake it. He does retake it (essentially the same tests, HWs, etc so its significantly easier) and gets an A, which replaces his F (no evidence of F). This is what I'm saying to me, doesn't feel fair. To others it obviously seems totally fair. That's okay.
This scenario is flawed though. If the dude got an F the first time, I have serious doubts about whether he was paying enough attention to the tests and homework to have it be beneficial the second time around. He effectively didn't learn anything the first time, so why would any of it be easier the second?

Also, I don't know of any schools that don't still show that you took the class and got an F, even if the grade is replaced in your GPA. Everything still goes on your transcript. Otherwise people wouldn't be concerned about W's and such, because they would just disappear when you retook the class. That's not how it works.
 
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WildZoo

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And if your best is a C and the other person's best is an A, even if it took them a second try to get it, I say tough ****. But you can bet if it's taking them 6 years to get through a 4 year program, adcoms are going to have questions about that. So in my opinion it all balances out.
 
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JJ1019

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And if your best is a C and the other person's best is an A, even if it took them a second try to get it, I say tough ****. But you can bet if it's taking them 6 years to get through a 4 year program, adcoms are going to have questions about that. So in my opinion it all balances out.
Thanks for the input. I'd hope they'd notice something like that. Some schools don't allow retakes for C's (like the OP is apparently running into), so rough road for the "C" kid who can't retake. I'm just trying to get people to see the other side of the coin. I like when people show me a new approach to an issue, even if I don't agree with them. ...Then I know what I'm up against. ;) Just kidding.
 

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Thanks for the input. I'd hope they'd notice something like that. Some schools don't allow retakes for C's (like the OP is apparently running into), so rough road for the "C" kid who can't retake. I'm just trying to get people to see the other side of the coin. I like when people show me a new approach to an issue, even if I don't agree with them. ...Then I know what I'm up against. ;) Just kidding.
Rough road for sure, but many people have gotten in and continue to get in with a few C's (I had a couple of my own). The key is to realize you're doing something wrong and fix the problem, which I believe was discussed earlier on. Sucks if you can't do that by retaking the class, but that's just a lesson in playing the cards you're dealt and doing what you can with the factors that you can control.

As for the seat thing, I believe pink puppy mentioned that her school does it the other way, where you can only retake so many classes and only if you actually failed, so that classes don't fill up too quickly. Unfortunately someone gets the short end of the stick in every scenario. Some schools you end up taking 5 years to finish a degree because they just don't have enough seats in general, even if you're a first time degree seeker who hasn't had to retake any classes.
 

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Some schools you end up taking 5 years to finish a degree because they just don't have enough seats in general, even if you're a first time degree seeker who hasn't had to retake any classes.
Yes, I had friends tell me they had to crash classes all the time as a first time degree holder to get what they needed to graduate. Often times registration priority is assigned based on year/credits and sometimes they were stuck taking smaller amounts of credits than desired. Sometimes you have to wonder if the schools are doing it for more money. I was fortunate enough to go through a system that didn't suffer from this for my undergrad...except classes like tennis or bowling which everyone wanted to take. When I came back to the college scene do pre-reqs it was a whole different ball game. I never had to fight so hard to get them to make my money.
 

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Many vet schools use grades and standardize tests as a way to attempt to determine if you will be able to handle the rigorous course load that you'll see in vet school. Is it perfect? No. But I do want the best and the brightest going into vet school, dental school, med school, law school, etc. "Best" is a subjective term, but if you can't handle the coursework in undergrad, unless something changes you won't make it through vet school. The field won't advance if we take all average all the time. My only point here is that I would take someone who passed the classes the first time over someone who had to retake 5 or 6 or 7 key courses.



I'm not speaking of C's in vet school, that's a whole different can of worms. No, there's no way to know what my vet got in school, but I know that if we don't lower the standards to get in, that there is a certain understanding of what it took to get there and get out with a DVM after your name. There is the saying, "Do you know what they call the guy who graduated bottom of his class from med school? Doctor..." That doesn't mean he's a good one. So much more goes into it than just that. I'm strictly speaking undergrad grades and being a metric for determining eligibility and potential success in professional school. If the standards are high we increase the chance that those exiting the program will be successful contributors to the field.



I'm not sure why it turned hostile. Am I concerned that non-degree students are treated poorly? Of course, and I'm trying to pave a smoother road for those behind me. In some schools even if you wanted a 2nd BS they aren't taking applicants that already have a degree. Sure I'm frustrated at the system, but I hardly think I'm taking it out or blaming anyone here for that. My issue is an administrative issue, not an issue with the students. I was simply pointing out the other side of the issue that hadn't been mentioned. I'm sorry you don't agree with my position on the issue.
I got my pre-reqs. I have transcripts from 8 different schools in 6 different states, but I got them. If what someone else is doing affects me, then I need to know enough about it so I can understand how to work around it and adjust my approach. I'm not 21-22, "eventually" isn't good enough. If 99% of the applicants getting into vet school have 4,000 hours of vet experience, then what those people are doing affects me...It means I need to step up my game and try to match that. Unfortunately applications are all about how you stack up to the guy/gal on the page before/after you. It works that way with resumes for jobs too.

On the issue of grade replacement (true replacement, not average) I think it's unfair to anyone who ends up with a worse grade than the kid that failed the first time but got an A the second. I could argue life isn't fair and the grade you get should be the grade you get...but I'm not. I realize that life sometimes gets in the way and you need a second chance.
I know of a doctor who failed a lab practical in med school because he had a documented seizure during the test. He had to retake the whole course and is lucky it wasn't the end of his career...fair? No. Of course life isn't fair, but there's no reason to go out of our way to make things un-fair, but that's just my 2 cents.

Again, worry about yourself, not others.

You need to worry about your grades, your experience, your leadership, etc.

Only you and what you do and how you portray yourself will help you get into veterinary school.

Worry about you. Focus on you. Make your application the best it can be.

Quit comparing yourself to others. It doesn't matter. No school will accept the excuse of, "but that student had to retake that class to get an A, I did it on the first try." You'll sound like a conceited dingus and be instantly rejected.

Worry about you. Comparing yourself to others or fretting about some "unfairness" in the process isn't going to assist you in any way.
 
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JJ1019

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Again, worry about yourself, not others.

You need to worry about your grades, your experience, your leadership, etc.

Only you and what you do and how you portray yourself will help you get into veterinary school.

Worry about you. Focus on you. Make your application the best it can be.

Quit comparing yourself to others. It doesn't matter. No school will accept the excuse of, "but that student had to retake that class to get an A, I did it on the first try." You'll sound like a conceited dingus and be instantly rejected.

Worry about you. Comparing yourself to others or fretting about some "unfairness" in the process isn't going to assist you in any way.
Seriously guys, this doesn't keep me up at night. I didn't even know you could retake classes until after undergrad when I was looking to get pre-reqs. I'm not concerned about my academic history in the least. I think the point I was trying to make was missed and I'm just going to let it go. If someone beats me to a slot then they showed something to deserve it, simple as that.
 
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