For you snake owners out there..

[onisteverina]

So, I've had my ball python for about 8 years or so. Started her on live mice because I didn't know better at the time. Switched her to frozen/thawed which worked when she was still small and taking anything up to a mouse. I started having problems when she was big enough to eat rats. She would not take a frozen/thawed rat... just would turn her nose us to it. I thought it might have something to do with the change in the scent.. so tried a couple things.. eventually ended up feeding her a couple frozen/thawed mice at a time to feed her. Moved.. local pet shop recommended trying fresh dead rats instead of doing 2 frozen/thawed mice.. in order to get her to the appropriately sized food.. It worked... and they would do the pre-killing for me.. I would just take it quickly from the shop and feed her right away. For several years I've been giving her fresh dead small rats, and now medium rats... eats without a problem...

Now here is my problem.. I just moved and have been calling around to find a place to have live feeders.. I finally found a place, but they don't do pre-killed... and I don't think that I can do that myself.. so I'm thinking about trying to frozen/thawed again (unless someone has any suggestions).. I'm wondering if anyone has any tips regarding frozen/thawed medium rats. I've thawed out rats in the past and have always worried about them spoiling or cooking (thawing in water that is too hot... or taking too long to thaw) in the process.. since they are so big and all... bleh... and to think I had her feeding down. Any advice would be appreciated..

Oh, and sorry in advance if I've grossed anyone out.

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[bunnity]

When I worked at a wildlife center we would take the frozen rats and put them in a big bowl of room temperature tap water to defrost for a couple hours. That seemed to work pretty well.

 

[onisteverina]

When I worked at a wildlife center we would take the frozen rats and put them in a big bowl of room temperature tap water to defrost for a couple hours. That seemed to work pretty well.

Would you guys do anything to get them a little warmer? I think that might have also been a problem when I initially tried to give her frozen/thawed.. she seems to prefer something warmer.. not just room temp.. so I would run some hot water over the head to make it warmer.. it worked sometimes.. but once they get to a larger size.. didn't seem like I could get it warm enough.. I guess that's where I got creeped out about the potential of cooking them with the hot water....

Oh, and out of curiosity.. what kind of snakes were you guys getting at the wildlife center?

 

[that redhead]

We thawed rats for a ball python in a paper towel or regular hand towel on top of a heating pad. Keep an eye on it and it shouldn't cook. Hope it works out for you!

 

[Trilt]

My roomie has a picky ball python and uses the defrosting in warm water technique to tempt him. Usually works well.

 

[epivetlove]

Can agree with above. I have more than a handful of snakes and I've always thawed my mice in a bowl of very hot, but not boiling, water. My one picky eater has to be fed in a covered container because he doesn't like an audience. Be sure to check the temp of the feeder to ensure it's not still super hot.

Some people cut slits along the back or brain their feeders to amplify the scent.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

If you're worried about creating a food-spoilage situation while thawing, the restaurant-safe method is to thaw in a bowl under continuously running cold water (I worked in a cafeteria for three years....something came out of that), but that isn't the best for the environment or your bills. Surrounding the food with water between 32-40 degrees prevents bacterial growth while thawing. Rapid exposure to higher temps causes a bacterial party. My human food prep training is going to tell you that you REALLY shouldn't thaw in hot water, and that if it really takes that long, that it out for days in advance in the fridge. Then the day of, if it's not ready, thaw in the bowl of water.

I have never owned snakes, but I can imagine the warmer mouse/rat is more appealing and natural for them. Just my two cents on the food safety concerns!

 

[bunnity]

Would you guys do anything to get them a little warmer? I think that might have also been a problem when I initially tried to give her frozen/thawed.. she seems to prefer something warmer.. not just room temp.. so I would run some hot water over the head to make it warmer.. it worked sometimes.. but once they get to a larger size.. didn't seem like I could get it warm enough.. I guess that's where I got creeped out about the potential of cooking them with the hot water....

Oh, and out of curiosity.. what kind of snakes were you guys getting at the wildlife center?

We had a ball python who lived there as an educational animal but most of the rats were for the birds of prey.

 

[exoticsmed]

The majority of my experience is in exotics. I was small animal supervisor at a sanctuary in Oklahoma for several years and worked at a zoo in my home town as well as having had my own reptiles for the past 10 years. First, if done right and with supervision, you can't beat the enrichment and overall health quality of feeding live. I breed my own rats as a few years back I started noticing the health of the feeder rats and even the pet store rats was declining. The rats looked sick and unhealthy and I wasn't willing to take the chance with my animals. I'm not saying everyone go out and start breeding but you must take into account the quality of the rat you are feeding.

Secondly, make sure that the frozen/thawed rats aren't too old. Most places keep them in the freezer for months on end. I once asked a well known pet store in my area how long their frozen mice had been there (they were for a lizard as a treat) and they admitted to me that they kept them from the order date until they were sold and that some of the mice had been there for almost a year. I kindly thanked the lady and moved on.

If you are going to feed frozen, thawing them in the fridge overnight works well. Too, if you started the snake on live it might have some issues with just having the rat thrown in there. At the facility in Oklahoma, we fed live so no big deal. The zoo in my home town feeds dead and we would use either snake tongs or something like kitchen tongs to shake and move the rat around so that the snakes got the sensation of constricting their prey. We would even shake the rat slightly while the snake was constricting to encourage that natural behavior.

Lastly, if you want to feed fresh dead, man up and do a cervical dislocation on the rat. It's quick and easy as long as they aren't the large/jumbo rats. Take the rat out of the container by the tail. Let them grab on to something with their front feet (a screen cage top works well). Take a wooden spoon handle (you hold the spoon part) and place it firmly behind the ears. Press down hard (the rat will struggle a bit) and pull firmly on the base of the tail at an upward angle until you hear/feel a crack. The rat may move and twitch a bit but that's just residual nerve firing. It's pretty quick and honestly pretty painless if done right. I haven't checked but I'm sure they have it on google or youtube.

Anyways, good luck and let us know if you have anymore snake questions. (I love my dogs and cats but my reptiles hold a special place in my heart and it's nice to see a thread for them)

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Lastly, if you want to feed fresh dead, man up and do a cervical dislocation on the rat. It's quick and easy as long as they aren't the large/jumbo rats. Take the rat out of the container by the tail. Let them grab on to something with their front feet (a screen cage top works well). Take a wooden spoon handle (you hold the spoon part) and place it firmly behind the ears. Press down hard (the rat will struggle a bit) and pull firmly on the base of the tail at an upward angle until you hear/feel a crack. The rat may move and twitch a bit but that's just residual nerve firing. It's pretty quick and honestly pretty painless if done right. I haven't checked but I'm sure they have it on google or youtube.

Anyways, good luck and let us know if you have anymore snake questions. (I love my dogs and cats but my reptiles hold a special place in my heart and it's nice to see a thread for them)

I agree with most of what you said above except - no, no NO. Doing a cervical dislocation on a rat as a primarly means of euthanasia is NOT easy unless you have someone who has been properly trained and practiced. In my lab, we would NEVER let an untrained student do a cervical even on a mouse as a primary method. Most people completely underestimate the force that is needed to dislocate the neck and transect the spinal cord and will not pull hard enough. It takes multiple practice sessions on already-dead animals for the average person to become competent and get over being tentative, apply the correct amount of force, know how to angle your fingers, etc.

I can't tell you how many times I have had to train students on postmortem cervicals on CO2ed mice. Half the time the neck it not fully dislocated and I have to show them again several times. And this is on dead mice, imagine if it were live ones, or big rats. I would never suggest to a stranger on the internet to do it themselves after just watching a youtube video.

Maybe it was very easy for you to learn, but humanely euthanizing an animal is a very serious thing. I'm not trying to be a dick, but trying to reiterate that it isn't something "easy" that anyone could do on their first try. You don't want your first try to be on a live animal and have it fail and cause unnecessary pain. I would suggest having an experienced person show you (not you specifically, I mean the owner) how to do it at least a few times and practicie on an already-dead animal first.

 

[Kyoht]

I've had some picky balls in the past. For some reason the pythons were always way pickier with their food than my rat snakes. I would dethaw frozen rats in the fridge then run tap water so it was super hot then fill a bowl and put the rat in it till the water was cold then repeat until I had it a good warm temp. I then put it with the snake. For really picky one I would move it in front of them till they took it. One time none of my snakes would take any frozen when I bought them from a new place. It must have been something with their smell because when I got new ones from another place they all ate. I like to order online in bulk from rodentpro. You have to pay for shipping but it is soooo much cheaper even with the shipping added in than at a pet store.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I've had some picky balls in the past. For some reason the pythons were always way pickier with their food than my rat snakes. I would dethaw frozen rats in the fridge then run tap water so it was super hot then fill a bowl and put the rat in it till the water was cold then repeat until I had it a good warm temp. I then put it with the snake. For really picky one I would move it in front of them till they took it. One time none of my snakes would take any frozen when I bought them from a new place. It must have been something with their smell because when I got new ones from another place they all ate. I like to order online in bulk from rodentpro. You have to pay for shipping but it is soooo much cheaper even with the shipping added in than at a pet store.

Balls can be picky as hell. I remember reading on a message board once that some guy had one that would only eat black mice with white feet, and he had to actually set up a breeding colony of black white-footed mice.

My ball currently refuses to move on to rats, even though he could easily take a small rat. He will only eat mice, little bugger. I'm working with him on it though.

 

[that redhead]

I agree with most of what you said above except - no, no NO. Doing a cervical dislocation on a rat as a primarly means of euthanasia is NOT easy unless you have someone who has been properly trained and practiced. In my lab, we would NEVER let an untrained student do a cervical even on a mouse as a primary method. Most people completely underestimate the force that is needed to dislocate the neck and transect the spinal cord and will not pull hard enough. It takes multiple practice sessions on already-dead animals for the average person to become competent and get over being tentative, apply the correct amount of force, know how to angle your fingers, etc.

I can't tell you how many times I have had to train students on postmortem cervicals on CO2ed mice. Half the time the neck it not fully dislocated and I have to show them again several times. And this is on dead mice, imagine if it were live ones, or big rats. I would never suggest to a stranger on the internet to do it themselves after just watching a youtube video.

Maybe it was very easy for you to learn, but humanely euthanizing an animal is a very serious thing. I'm not trying to be a dick, but trying to reiterate that it isn't something "easy" that anyone could do on their first try. You don't want your first try to be on a live animal and have it fail and cause unnecessary pain. I would suggest having an experienced person show you (not you specifically, I mean the owner) how to do it at least a few times and practicie on an already-dead animal first.

THANK YOU for saying this WTF. AVMA guidelines for humane euthanasia for cervical dislocation of common lab animal species (such as rats) states that they should be immature/less than 200g. I learned how to CD mice after they'd been asphyxiated with CO2; many people still do this or gas them down first just to be on the safe side. It is not at all as easy as it looks and while it's a great option (for small rats/mice), it requires a lot of training.

(I'm trying hard not to get on my "live feeding" soap box...)

 

[exoticsmed]

I guess I just learned differently how to do it. To me it wasn't a big deal. I learned in a zoo setting where we were doing it for feeding purposes and if it went a little wonky it just wasn't seen as a big deal as they were food anyways. We did pigeons and mice/rats and it was a good learning opportunity. I mean you don't know how to do something until you try but to each their own. I was simply trying to give advice on how to get fresh dead if they couldn't be found.

As for live feeding, while I do agree that it must be supervised for the safety of the animal, I'm a much bigger proponent of feeding animals in a way that will enrich their lives. For all that they were bred in captivity, reptiles are still a wild animal and most of them do not eat carrion in the wild. My snakes love live and it is all I will ever feed. Many zoos also feed live for the enrichment purposes that it brings to the animal. I have worked with venomous snakes in the past that wouldn't touch dead food. It's not what they do naturally. I can understand that people don't properly feed live and it can result in harm to the reptile but those are generally the same people who aren't taking proper care of their reptiles anyways. I don't understand where they big "anti-live" movement comes from nor why it is pushed so heavily in so many situations. It takes a very short amount of time to watch the snake constrict the rat and then be on your merry way. Just comes down to personal preference I guess.

 

[LetItSnow]

I learned in a zoo setting where we were doing it for feeding purposes and if it went a little wonky it just wasn't seen as a big deal as they were food anyways.

I think that zoo probably needs to reconsider their practices, or perhaps you took away the wrong message from the zoo. The point had absolutely nothing to do with the intended purpose of the body (i.e. "as they were food anyways") but rather, what a humane way to euthanize an animal is. The fact that they were "food anyways" does not remove the obligation to kill them humanely. Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but it's certainly what your statement seems to imply.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I guess I just learned differently how to do it. To me it wasn't a big deal. I learned in a zoo setting where we were doing it for feeding purposes and if it went a little wonky it just wasn't seen as a big deal as they were food anyways. We did pigeons and mice/rats and it was a good learning opportunity. I mean you don't know how to do something until you try but to each their own. I was simply trying to give advice on how to get fresh dead if they couldn't be found.

As for live feeding, while I do agree that it must be supervised for the safety of the animal, I'm a much bigger proponent of feeding animals in a way that will enrich their lives. For all that they were bred in captivity, reptiles are still a wild animal and most of them do not eat carrion in the wild. My snakes love live and it is all I will ever feed. Many zoos also feed live for the enrichment purposes that it brings to the animal. I have worked with venomous snakes in the past that wouldn't touch dead food. It's not what they do naturally. I can understand that people don't properly feed live and it can result in harm to the reptile but those are generally the same people who aren't taking proper care of their reptiles anyways. I don't understand where they big "anti-live" movement comes from nor why it is pushed so heavily in so many situations. It takes a very short amount of time to watch the snake constrict the rat and then be on your merry way. Just comes down to personal preference I guess.

That, frankly, horrifies me. Even if an animal is destined to be food, if we have to kill it we owe it to them to do it humanely. And providing "advice" in the form of saying someone can just up and do a proper cervical 100% of the time after just watching a video online is disingenuous.

Is it "no big deal" if our slaughter procedures for a cow or pig "goes a little wonky' (e.g. improper stunning so the animal suffers) because they are food anyways? Of course not, it is something that requires immediate correction. Or euthanasia of an agonal dog "goes a little wonky" it "isn't a big deal" because they are going to die anyway? Of course not. If our euthanasias of research mice goes "wonky", it is not "no big deal" just because they are destined for tissue processing - we get reamed by the IACUC and research activity is suspended.

There is a reason we have guidelines on acceptable euthanasia practices.

The reason I do not feed live is because it is unnecessary. I am not squeamish in the least - as a pathologist you should see the stuff I get on the table. My ball eats frozen/thawed perfectly well and gets tons of enrichment in other ways. Saying that someone who doesn't feed live isn't taking care of their snake properly is preposterous edit - I realize you may have been referring to people feeding live improperly as in feeding an aggressive rodent to a shy/not-hungry snake, in which case I tend to agree with you on that one point. If I had a snake that would only eat live, I would do so. But I see no point in causing the suffering of another animal (in this case, the rodent) when it can be avoided in a captivity situation. Being CO2ed or dislocated is quicker and more humane than constriction by a predator in most if not all situations.

 

[LetItSnow]

Saying that someone who doesn't feed live isn't taking care of their snake properly is preposterous. If I had a snake that would only eat live, I would do so. But I see no point in causing the suffering of another animal (in this case, the rodent) when it can be avoided in a captivity situation. Being CO2ed or dislocated is quicker and more humane than constriction by a predator in most if not all situations.

I realize that my Garter Snake is about the furthest from an interesting/exotic/whatever snake a person could own, but considering she was wild-caught (not my doing) and is going on 6 years and 42 inches (pretty big for a Garter in this part of the country) in our house on a diet of frozen mice with very, very rare occasional supplementation with minnows (i.e. "when it's fishing season if by some miracle I have time to go fishing") .... I'd say there's no reason they can't do well on dead food.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

I guess I just learned differently how to do it. To me it wasn't a big deal. I learned in a zoo setting where we were doing it for feeding purposes and if it went a little wonky it just wasn't seen as a big deal as they were food anyways. We did pigeons and mice/rats and it was a good learning opportunity. I mean you don't know how to do something until you try but to each their own. I was simply trying to give advice on how to get fresh dead if they couldn't be found.

As for live feeding, while I do agree that it must be supervised for the safety of the animal, I'm a much bigger proponent of feeding animals in a way that will enrich their lives. For all that they were bred in captivity, reptiles are still a wild animal and most of them do not eat carrion in the wild. My snakes love live and it is all I will ever feed. Many zoos also feed live for the enrichment purposes that it brings to the animal. I have worked with venomous snakes in the past that wouldn't touch dead food. It's not what they do naturally. I can understand that people don't properly feed live and it can result in harm to the reptile but those are generally the same people who aren't taking proper care of their reptiles anyways. I don't understand where they big "anti-live" movement comes from nor why it is pushed so heavily in so many situations. It takes a very short amount of time to watch the snake constrict the rat and then be on your merry way. Just comes down to personal preference I guess.

Please. You don't even feed out live fish. And live fish don't present the potential for injury like live mice/rats do. No zoo in its right mind would use a procedure that can go "wonky" in order to provide food. PR headache. The zoo I worked at only fed fresh-killed mice if they were pinkies, and those are easily and confidently killed in several different ways (and us interns weren't allowed to do it so the procedure didn't go "wonky"). What zoo did you learn this in?

I understand that snakes naturally feed live. But when feeder animals are under YOUR care, YOU are responsible for ensuring they have a humane end of life. That includes pet owners and veterinarians.

 

[Escalla]

(I'm trying hard not to get on my "live feeding" soap box...)

For us non-reptile people, this is a really informative read....so soap box away!

 

[bunnity]

Our veterinary oath has us swear to prevent pain and suffering and promote animal welfare. It is one of the most important things I can think of that an animal that we are responsible for does not suffer during its death. Whether that is a beloved pet animal or a beef cow or a feeder rat does not make any difference.

As a side note, live feeding is also dangerous for the reptile and I have seen some very nasty cases at school of snakes that were attacked by rats. It was not recommended by any of the exotics specialists at school.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Agreed. It is very different for a snake out in the wild to stalk prey; it can escape if it needs to (i.e. if the prey is too aggressive). It is a completely different matter to put a snake and a terrified rat in an enclosure together where they essentially are pitted against one another Thunderdome style. I mean, if people really think live feeding of animals in captivity is so much more natural and beneficial, why aren't we putting live deer or cows in lion pens like they do in some of the sketchy China zoos? Or feeding live seals to orcas? Etc.

Now, do I think animals in captivity benefit from enrichment? Of course they do. It is our duty to provide them with it. But there are many, many ways to do that without including the suffering of another animal.

 

[Trilt]

As for live feeding, while I do agree that it must be supervised for the safety of the animal, I'm a much bigger proponent of feeding animals in a way that will enrich their lives. For all that they were bred in captivity, reptiles are still a wild animal and most of them do not eat carrion in the wild. My snakes love live and it is all I will ever feed. Many zoos also feed live for the enrichment purposes that it brings to the animal. I have worked with venomous snakes in the past that wouldn't touch dead food. It's not what they do naturally. I can understand that people don't properly feed live and it can result in harm to the reptile but those are generally the same people who aren't taking proper care of their reptiles anyways. I don't understand where they big "anti-live" movement comes from nor why it is pushed so heavily in so many situations. It takes a very short amount of time to watch the snake constrict the rat and then be on your merry way. Just comes down to personal preference I guess.

I don't think the mice/rats feel very enriched.

 

[that redhead]

Everyone has made the points I would and probably far more eloquently than I ever could.

But the whole "wild snakes" argument really pushes my buttons. Of course they eat live prey in the wild. But what do rodents in the wild do? They have the chance to escape. Why are we catering to the wild instincts of one animal and not the other? Just because the animal is "destined to die anyway" doesn't mean it deserves any less respect or consideration for its potential for pain, suffering or distress. And you'd better believe that it's a distressing situation for that feeder to be in. If one is such a big proponent of animals acting as they would in the wild, why don't you just let the snakes that won't eat starve? Because it's inhumane. Your regard for animal life (and how that life is ended) should never be species-selective.

I don't understand where they big "anti-live" movement comes from nor why it is pushed so heavily in so many situations. It takes a very short amount of time to watch the snake constrict the rat and then be on your merry way. Just comes down to personal preference I guess.

Just because it's convenient for you, doesn't mean its the right way. And it comes down to morals/ethics, not preference.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Everyone has made the points I would and probably far more eloquently than I ever could.

But the whole "wild snakes" argument really pushes my buttons. Of course they eat live prey in the wild. But what do rodents in the wild do? They have the chance to escape. Why are we catering to the wild instincts of one animal and not the other? Just because the animal is "destined to die anyway" doesn't mean it deserves any less respect or consideration for its potential for pain, suffering or distress. And you'd better believe that it's a distressing situation for that feeder to be in. If one is such a big proponent of animals acting as they would in the wild, why don't you just let the snakes that won't eat starve? Because it's inhumane. Your regard for animal life (and how that life is ended) should never be species-selective.



Just because it's convenient for you, doesn't mean its the right way. And it comes down to morals/ethics, not preference.

So good. It's just so good.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Also, I didn't say anything before, but @exoticsmed said the killing of the feeder animal "wasn't a big deal." Ending an animal's life should ALWAYS be a big deal. You don't have to cry about it, but it should never be something you shrug off.

 

[onisteverina]

Well, I did it guys! Defrosted the medium rat in a baggie.. in water.. in a tupperware.. in the frig for the day.. then once it was thawed out.. moved it in to some warm water to bring the rats temp up. Had to do a little wiggling dance with the hemostats but she took it.... she seemed skeptical at first but did eventually go for it. I guess I was so worried about doing the frozen/thawed thing again because I just remember a lot of wasted mice/rats when she would refuse them.. sometimes even after constricting and everything. Hopefully she continues to be interested!

 

[Kpowell14]

Well, I did it guys! Defrosted the medium rat in a baggie.. in water.. in a tupperware.. in the frig for the day.. then once it was thawed out.. moved it in to some warm water to bring the rats temp up. Had to do a little wiggling dance with the hemostats but she took it.... she seemed skeptical at first but did eventually go for it. I guess I was so worried about doing the frozen/thawed thing again because I just remember a lot of wasted mice/rats when she would refuse them.. sometimes even after constricting and everything. Hopefully she continues to be interested!

I've fed balls, corn snakes, and king snakes ( all frozen) and every time the snake would strike the pinkie/ mouse while I was doing the "mouse wiggle" with hemostats I would jerk and sometimes let out a small screech lol it scared me every single time lol