GPA 3.988, sGPA 4.0, MCAT 518, Aiming for T10-T20, Gap year advice needed

[Dumplingz]

Hi all,

Looking for some guidance on what to do moving forward. I’m in my final year of undergrad and recently got my MCAT score back (518). I have an LM 75.9 and WARS 85, conservatively. The 2017 WARS doc gave me an S level rating and recommended I make 45% of my applications to Category 1 schools (Harvard, Stanford, Hopkins, UCSF, Penn, WashU, Yale, Columbia, Duke, Chicago), which, correct me if I'm wrong, seems like a recipe for disaster.

Although I am aiming for T10 and T20, I feel like there are certain parts of my applications that would hold me back from medical schools like these. Specifically, my MCAT is usually 2-4 points below most T10 schools' median MCAT and I don’t have any pubs yet, though I’ll have a poster, presentation, and 1-2 co-author pubs (low-medium impact) most likely before I apply. Also, I feel like my non-clinical volunteering could be stronger. A majority of my hours come from volunteering in the hospital as well as a nonprofit. I know my leadership is relatively strong since I’m president of my uni’s pre-med organization and founded a nonprofit chapter at my school, but I’m not sure how med schools will view my volunteering experience with the nonprofit over the past couple of years. Basically, we go on week-long service-learning trips to impoverished communities and work in mobile clinics and community service projects. It’s a great introduction to global health disparities and genuinely provides sustainable benefits to the communities we partner with. I’ve gone on several of these trips already and continually work with these communities throughout the year, so it’s not a one-off thing.

I’m planning to apply this upcoming spring cycle, but am unsure of whether to focus on improving my research or volunteering experience during my gap year. For research, I was looking at applying to the NIH IRTA Postbacc program and doing that for the year starting this summer when I’m applying to medical school and up until I (hopefully) matriculate into medical school next year. For volunteering, I was thinking about doing either Peace Corp (with an additional gap year since it’s a 2 year program) or Americorp, since I’m pretty passionate about global health and helping low-income communities. I could also just stay in Boston (where my undergrad is) and continue doing research/volunteering here.

My question is, would it be worth it to put in the extra effort to pursue either IRTA Postbacc or Peace Corp/Americorp during my gap year? Since I would be just starting either activity at the beginning of the application cycle, would either of those activities even benefit my application? I probably wouldn’t be able to fully talk about the experiences by the time I submit primaries, so I would only be able to mention them during my secondaries and interviews. Would it be more beneficial to take an additional gap year and apply only once I have completed either option?

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[MyOdyssey]

see above. I know numerous people there who got their A's in early August at Geisel.

What other inside scoops on medical schools can you share? What you said about Geisel and Alpert was certainly news to me.

 

[jhmmd]

What other inside scoops on medical schools can you share? What you said about Geisel and Alpert was certainly news to me.

I hear that there are FREE samples at Baskin-Robbins
*runs and hides*

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

What other inside scoops on medical schools can you share? What you said about Geisel and Alpert was certainly news to me.

In order to get into Mayo, you really need to send a convincing letter of intent after your interview. It's a very high touch place.

 

[MyOdyssey]

In order to get into Mayo, you really need to send a convincing letter of intent after your interview. It's a very high touch place.

Which Mayo? MN or AZ?

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

Which Mayo? MN or AZ?

both, plus the 2+2 program. They want you to go out of your way to express strong interest. I don't know why, but that's kind of the reason they have a low acceptance rate. They keep their yield high this way. Schools maneuver around to make themselves look more competitive.

 

[jhmmd]

both, plus the 2+2 program. They want you to go out of your way to express strong interest. I don't know why, but that's kind of the reason they have a low acceptance rate. They keep their yield high this way. Schools maneuver around to make themselves look more competitive.

damn

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

damn

Yeah, I got really obsessed with the process when applying.

 

[jhmmd]

Yeah, I got really obsessed with the process when applying.

Don't we all

 

[MyOdyssey]

both, plus the 2+2 program. They want you to go out of your way to express strong interest. I don't know why, but that's kind of the reason they have a low acceptance rate. They keep their yield high this way. Schools maneuver around to make themselves look more competitive.

Will expressing strong interest help score an interview as well? Or is it only useful once Mayo extends an interview invitation?

 

[jhmmd]

Will expressing strong interest help score an interview as well? Or is it only useful once Mayo extends an interview invitation?

I know that you didn't ask me, but it is useful to send a LOI (letter of interest) if it's October and you don't have an interview invite, and an update letter/LOI (letter of intent) after an interview. This is in general.
Edit: oh and my source is @alwaysanangel

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

Will expressing strong interest help score an interview as well? Or is it only useful once Mayo extends an interview invitation?

I don't think much can be done before you get an II. But once you get that II, a lot can be achieved if you know the game well. To boot, if you interview at Yale, the key is to nail that first interview with the admissions director who will grill you so hard on why the Yale System. You need to fully convince him that this is the perfect fit for you and you wouldn't be a slacker lol.

 

[Dumplingz]

I don't think much can be done before you get an II. But once you get that II, a lot can be achieved if you know the game well. To boot, if you interview at Yale, the key is to nail that first interview with the admissions director who will grill you so hard on why the Yale System. You need to fully convince him that this is the perfect fit for you and you wouldn't be a slacker lol.

You're like a fortune cookie for admissions, how do you know so many niche tips for all these schools lol

 

[jhmmd]

You're like a fortune cookie for admissions, how do you know so many niche tips for all these schools lol

Pro tip: REMEMBER that the cookie is not as important as the wrapper!!!! EEsh

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

You're like a fortune cookie for admissions, how do you know so many niche tips for all these schools lol

I interviewed at a ton of places not long ago. Once you get to the interview stage, your performance matters a lot. Your other stuff on paper will have to match your performance. Basically you are there to present your application materials in person.

 

[Dumplingz]

The key here is you need to have a hook to differentiate yourself from others in the pool. I think you can expand a lot on your MedLife experience and make that into the main thread of your narrative. Namely, start with why you wanted to found it at your school, what difficulty you faced while founding it, how you recruited others, and what you experienced while serving. Then you can segue into what you want to do in medicine moving forward. You have enough to work on. It's really about the presentation. Your MCAT is not the best for T20's but it's enough. I would focus a bit more on research now since your volunteering is quite strong. but when you write your application, pick a lane. In other words, don't say "I want to be the greatest global health expert and also a frontier researcher in cancer gene therapy." Very naive and pompous. Say something like "you love to continue the path of global health and want to have more research experience in the future to expand treatment possibilities for poor communities."

Thank you for the advice! So you would recommend strengthening my research experience rather than doubling down on volunteering? If I were to do research during my gap year, I would be looking to do research in the NIH IRTA Post-bacc program, but I don't think I would be lucky enough to find a PI willing to take a student for 1 year also doing research related to working with underserved communities. So my issue is that I don't want my theme to be global health but then have some very unrelated research tacked on during my gap year. Do you think I should still move toward strengthening research, especially if I'm able to get the 1 or 2 pubs before I graduate in my current lab anyways? I've heard that additional pubs only really benefit MD/PhD programs, and that they yield diminishing returns for MD programs.

 

[MyOdyssey]

I interviewed at a ton of places not long ago. Once you get to the interview stage, your performance matters a lot. Your other stuff on paper will have to match your performance. Basically you are there to present your application materials in person.

How important is it to (a) be able to express a clear, unambiguous career path (e.g. academic medicine or primary care) and (b) harp on how there's a match with the school's mission, for example, social justice?

In other words, is there a problem if an applicant has done a lot of research AND has done a lot of volunteering with the underserved? Will that send mixed messages?

 

[jhmmd]

How important is it to (a) be able to express a clear, unambiguous career path (e.g. academic medicine or primary care) and (b) harp on how there's a match with the school's mission, for example, social justice?

In other words, is there a problem if an applicant has done a lot of research AND has done a lot of volunteering with the underserved? Will that send mixed messages?

LOL no

 

[jhmmd]

How important is it to (a) be able to express a clear, unambiguous career path (e.g. academic medicine or primary care) and (b) harp on how there's a match with the school's mission, for example, social justice?

In other words, is there a problem if an applicant has done a lot of research AND has done a lot of volunteering with the underserved? Will that send mixed messages?

More seriously--try to find a way to mesh your personal career trajectory w/the school's mission. School missions are typically very general anyway. It shouldn't be that hard.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

Thank you for the advice! So you would recommend strengthening my research experience rather than doubling down on volunteering? If I were to do research during my gap year, I would be looking to do research in the NIH IRTA Post-bacc program, but I don't think I would be lucky enough to find a PI willing to take a student for 1 year also doing research related to working with underserved communities. So my issue is that I don't want my theme to be global health but then have some very unrelated research tacked on during my gap year. Do you think I should still move toward strengthening research, especially if I'm able to get the 1 or 2 pubs before I graduate in my current lab anyways? I've heard that additional pubs only really benefit MD/PhD programs, and that they yield diminishing returns for MD programs.

Nothing is unrelated. You can always spin everything to make them fit. Say you do CAR-T or CNS Lymphoma research or acute angle closure glaucoma or retinopathy and the list goes on and on, you can always harp back to your global health theme. Look hard and find those connections and strew the pearls into a beautiful and irresistible necklace so the adcom just can't help but try it on!

 

[jhmmd]

Nothing is unrelated. You can always spin everything to make them fit. Say you do CAR-T or CNS Lymphoma research or acute angle closure glaucoma or retinopathy and the list goes on and on, you can always harp back to your global health theme. Look hard and find those connections and strew the pearls into a beautiful and irresistible necklace so the adcom just can't help but try it on!

Ur a beacon of truth siracha

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

More seriously--try to find a way to mesh your personal career trajectory w/the school's mission. School missions are typically very general anyway. It shouldn't be that hard.

Agree. School missions are so boring to talk about. It's about you not about them that they want to know more about. Since I am spilling all the beans, why not give more. After your interview with WashU, if you want to get that A soon, you need to write a letter to Dr. Ratts, to tell her how much you would love to be trained there. WashU is another place where people don't want to go because of the location.

 

[MyOdyssey]

Thank you for the advice! So you would recommend strengthening my research experience rather than doubling down on volunteering? If I were to do research during my gap year, I would be looking to do research in the NIH IRTA Post-bacc program, but I don't think I would be lucky enough to find a PI willing to take a student for 1 year also doing research related to working with underserved communities. So my issue is that I don't want my theme to be global health but then have some very unrelated research tacked on during my gap year. Do you think I should still move toward strengthening research, especially if I'm able to get the 1 or 2 pubs before I graduate in my current lab anyways? I've heard that additional pubs only really benefit MD/PhD programs, and that they yield diminishing returns for MD programs.

Start going through the lab profiles on the NIH website and begin writing targeted emails to PIs.

NIH does have labs that focus on research to the underserved. NIH's facilities in AZ focuses on diabetes 2 research directed at the Native American population.

There are also NIH public health oriented research labs at the main campus (Bethesda) as well as various other satellite campuses spread throughout the US.

Phoenix Epidemiology & Clinical Research Branch - NIDDK

Determining the etiology of type 2 diabetes mellitus and obesity

www.niddk.nih.gov

Health Disparities Interest Group

The HDIG fosters idea exchange and activities to further understand, reduce and eliminate health disparities.

www.nimhd.nih.gov

 

[jhmmd]

Agree. School missions are so boring to talk about. It's about you not about them that they want to know more about. Since I am spilling all the beans, why not give more. After your interview with WashU, if you want to get that A soon, you need to write a letter to Dr. Ratts, to tell her how much you would love to be trained there. WashU is another place where people don't want to go because of the location.

Did somebody say beans?

 

[Dumplingz]

Start going through the lab profiles on the NIH website and begin writing targeted emails to PIs.

NIH does have labs that focus on research to the underserved. NIH's facilities in AZ focuses on diabetes 2 research directed at the Native American population.

There are also NIH public health oriented research labs at the main campus (Bethesda) as well as various other satellite campuses spread throughout the US.

Phoenix Epidemiology & Clinical Research Branch - NIDDK

Determining the etiology of type 2 diabetes mellitus and obesity

www.niddk.nih.gov

Health Disparities Interest Group

The HDIG fosters idea exchange and activities to further understand, reduce and eliminate health disparities.

www.nimhd.nih.gov

You guys are lifesavers and I want you all to know that i love each and every one of you

 

[MyOdyssey]

Scientific Focus Areas | NIH Intramural Research Program

irp.nih.gov

Notice that health disparities is one of NIH's scientific focus areas. You can also try more indirect health disparities related avenues like diabetes (disproportionately experienced by Americans of African, Native and Asian heritage), kidney disease (a common result of diabetes), epigenetics (tying disease to environment), etc.

Just be aware that NIH has research facilities all over the US - not just in Bethesda, MD.

 

[Dumplingz]

Scientific Focus Areas | NIH Intramural Research Program

irp.nih.gov

Notice that health disparities is one of NIH's scientific focus areas. You can also try more indirect health disparities related avenues like diabetes (disproportionately experienced by Americans of African, Native and Asian heritage), kidney disease (a common result of diabetes), epigenetics (tying disease to environment), etc.

Just be aware that NIH has research facilities all over the US - not just in Bethesda, MD.

Okay, I'll keep that in mind. I think health disparity research fits in really well with my theme and is something I would likely be passionate about. Hopefully I'll be able to find a PI willing to take me for a year!

 

[MyOdyssey]

Here’s the directory:

Health Disparities | Principal Investigators | NIH Intramural Research Program

irp.nih.gov

 

[YCAGA]

True, it is unlikely that people will disclose cluster B personality disorders. But this is a red herring.


The first sentence is 100% true (because I said so)? The second sentence is more improbable.

I chose my words carefully…”cluster B traits,” not necessarily a full blown personality disorder. Plenty of people make it into medical school with some questionable personalities, so it stands to reason that a non-red herring number also get weeded out in interviews.

 

[jhmmd]

I chose my words carefully…”cluster B traits,” not necessarily a full blown personality disorder. Plenty of people make it into medical school with some questionable personalities, so it stands to reason that a non-red herring number also get weeded out in interviews.

Dude be nice. All pre-meds are "neurotic." You have to play the game. "Neurotic" is a harsh word that implies OCD, etc. ALL pre-meds are grade grubbing, double checking, extra credit game players. Let's be real here; no one gets into medical school by cutting corners. No one is saying that people don't get weeded out by interviews, btw.

 

[YCAGA]

Dude be nice. All pre-meds are "neurotic." You have to play the game. "Neurotic" is a harsh word that implies OCD, etc. ALL pre-meds are grade grubbing, double checking, extra credit game players. Let's be real here; no one gets into medical school by cutting corners. No one is saying that people don't get weeded out by interviews, btw.

I think you’re misunderstanding what I am trying to say. All I am arguing is that 14% of 517+/3.8+ not getting an acceptance is less scary if an applicant knows that they get along with people fine and checked every box.

I’m definitely not saying all or most premeds are awful people or have significant psychiatric issues. I was a premed, so were my classmates, many of whom are great people, and so was every great doctor I have every met.

edit: I also never used the word neurotic...not sure where the came from

 

[PotatoTots]

I have some questions. Are there good rental units that are within walking distance of the NIH campus in Bethesda?

What are some other places to live that are convenient to the NIH campus in Bethesda?

PM'ed you to keep personal information personal 🙂

Edit: Also replied to @DumplingChow

 

[MyOdyssey]

PM'ed you to keep personal information personal 🙂

Thanks! Just replied.

 

[College2016]

current 1 year IRTA here if you have any questions 🙂

What are the stats that will likely get you into the NIH Post Bac program?

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

I thought Geisel and Alpert liked "quirky" candidates.

They both heavily favor Ivy League undergraduate alumni. I’ve heard that brown didn’t even allow non-brown university/other Ivy League students to send applications until the early 2000s or something. Ivy League undergrad schools tend to admit a greater portion of “quirky students” (hence why undergrad essays are more important than medical school essays.) therefore it is natural that brown and Geisel will have a higher percentage of quirky students.

 

[DoctorFate]

If you turn down an acceptance, you'll have to disclose that when you re-apply and it's a huge red flag.

Sorry to side track this discussion a little, but I had a question about this. I was always told this before applying, but very few medical schools asked me if I had been previous accepted to medical schools. The vast majority only asked if I had matriculated. If I was accepted and ultimately declined, then these schools did not ask for that information.

Is there some other way schools have of knowing whether you were previously accepted? @gonnif (because you seem to know a lot about this kind of information)

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Sorry to side track this discussion a little, but I had a question about this. I was always told this before applying, but very few medical schools asked me if I had been previous accepted to medical schools. The vast majority only asked if I had matriculated. If I was accepted and ultimately declined, then these schools did not ask for that information.

Is there some other way schools have of knowing whether you were previously accepted? @gonnif (because you seem to know a lot about this kind of information)

It has come up in a bunch of my interviews. I think that reapplicants with high gpa/mcat are more likely to be asked during interviews. Questions such as “your application looks good. Why do you think you didn’t get in previously?”

If you have a legitimate reason (ie the acceptances were taken away), I doubt it hurts as much as saying “I wanted to go somewhere better”

 

[KnightDoc]

It has come up in a bunch of my interviews. I think that reapplicants with high gpa/mcat are more likely to be asked during interviews. Questions such as “your application looks good. Why do you think you didn’t get in previously?”

If you have a legitimate reason (ie the acceptances were taken away), I doubt it hurts as much as saying “I wanted to go somewhere better”

This^^^^. Plus, keep in mind, @gonnif is old school! 🙂

Some schools ask. As you've observed, most don't. In the good old days (up to a few years ago) AMCAS produced a report showing all acceptances that all schools could see, so the info was out there. No more. Now the report is not produced until October each year, and it only shows where people matriculate, which is why schools feel comfortable asking about that. It can be checked.

 

[KnightDoc]

Me and my quill pens havent kept up.
Why I am so old, when I was a child I had to watch TV by candle light.
We used have to actually get up and change the channel.
And if you missed a show you had to wait for summer reruns.

And THIS is why I LOVE you!!!! ❤️

 

[DoctorFate]

This^^^^. Plus, keep in mind, @gonnif is old school! 🙂

Some schools ask. As you've observed, most don't. In the good old days (up to a few years ago) AMCAS produced a report showing all acceptances that all schools could see, so the info was out there. No more. Now the report is not produced until October each year, and it only shows where people matriculate, which is why schools feel comfortable asking about that. It can be checked.

So then why do I still see a sentiment on here that getting accepted to med school and declining to attend is a huge red flag.

I've suspected this for some time now- it USED to be a red flag because schools had the MAR, but now they don't, so they have no way of knowing if you were previously accepted or not and the vast majority dont ask either.

Not that it matters much to me now, but I would not have withdrawn pre-decision last cycle had i known that the situation involving MAR had changed. I just continued to see posts on here repeating the old advice that declining an acceptance dooms your reapplication, so i withdrew. However, figuring this out may help others there are in a similar situation. Perhaps we don't need to be so hasty to withdraw, whatever our reasons are.

 

[KnightDoc]

So then why do I still see a sentiment on here that getting accepted to med school and declining to attend is a huge red flag.

I've suspected this for some time now- it USED to be a red flag because schools had the MAR, but now they don't, so they have no way of knowing if you were previously accepted or not and the vast majority dont ask either.

Not that it matters much to me now, but I would not have withdrawn pre-decision last cycle had i known that the situation involving MAR had changed. I just continued to see posts on here repeating the old advice that declining an acceptance dooms your reapplication, so i withdrew. However, figuring this out may help others there are in a similar situation. Perhaps we don't need to be so hasty to withdraw, whatever our reasons are.

I'm not sure about "red flag" if schools aren't asking, but, in general, it's just not a great idea. Getting accepted to med school is not so easy, as evidenced by the fact that 64% of those who applied last year failed to do so, and around half of the remaining 36% only had one acceptance.

Throwing an acceptance away to try to upgrade in a future cycle just doesn't make sense for most people. Having high aspirations is great, and there is nothing wrong with choosing the "best" school you get into. But the vast majority of us will get exactly where we are going coming from ANY US MD school. People who have been conditioned to worship at the altar of prestige and rankings just don't believe it.

Everyone entering thinks they are going into the most competitive specialties, and thinks they need to go to the best schools to make that happen. Neither is true. Top schools have great match lists because they are filled with great students. Great students also go to every other school, although not in such concentrated numbers. Those schools also place great people in great residencies. Again, not in the same numbers. Just like UG. Top schools have very high MD acceptance rates, but every school has excellent students who do well.

No, you probably didn't need to withdraw. OTOH, you also probably lost a year for nothing by doing so. The advice to not toss an acceptance in hopes of an upgrade is solid. Most people won't get the upgrade, and most of those who do won't need it.

 

[jhmmd]

Hi all,

Looking for some guidance on what to do moving forward. I’m in my final year of undergrad and recently got my MCAT score back (518). I have an LM 75.9 and WARS 85, conservatively. The 2017 WARS doc gave me an S level rating and recommended I make 45% of my applications to Category 1 schools (Harvard, Stanford, Hopkins, UCSF, Penn, WashU, Yale, Columbia, Duke, Chicago), which, correct me if I'm wrong, seems like a recipe for disaster.

Although I am aiming for T10 and T20, I feel like there are certain parts of my applications that would hold me back from medical schools like these. Specifically, my MCAT is usually 2-4 points below most T10 schools' median MCAT and I don’t have any pubs yet, though I’ll have a poster, presentation, and 1-2 co-author pubs (low-medium impact) most likely before I apply. Also, I feel like my non-clinical volunteering could be stronger. A majority of my hours come from volunteering in the hospital as well as MEDLIFE. I know my leadership is relatively strong since I’m president of my uni’s pre-med organization and founded the MEDLIFE chapter at my school, but I’m not sure how med schools will view my volunteering experience with MEDLIFE over the past couple of years. If you’re unfamiliar with MEDLIFE, basically we go on week-long service-learning trips to impoverished communities and work in mobile clinics and community service projects. It’s a great introduction to global health disparities and genuinely provides sustainable benefits to the communities we partner with. I’ve gone on several of these trips already and continually work with these communities throughout the year, so it’s not a one-off thing.

I’m planning to apply this upcoming spring cycle, but am unsure of whether to focus on improving my research or volunteering experience during my gap year. For research, I was looking at applying to the NIH IRTA Postbacc program and doing that for the year starting this summer when I’m applying to medical school and up until I (hopefully) matriculate into medical school next year. For volunteering, I was thinking about doing either Peace Corp (with an additional gap year since it’s a 2 year program) or Americorp, since I’m pretty passionate about global health and helping low-income communities. I could also just stay in Boston (where my undergrad is) and continue doing research/volunteering here.

My question is, would it be worth it to put in the extra effort to pursue either IRTA Postbacc or Peace Corp/Americorp during my gap year? Since I would be just starting either activity at the beginning of the application cycle, would either of those activities even benefit my application? I probably wouldn’t be able to fully talk about the experiences by the time I submit primaries, so I would only be able to mention them during my secondaries and interviews. Would it be more beneficial to take an additional gap year and apply only once I have completed either option?

I have 1000+ clinical hours and ~300 nonclinical volunteering hours (200 as a hospital volunteer, 100+ with MEDLIFE, maybe 100 more in the spring in a soup kitchen).

Why are you taking a gap year? It seems like you already have some research under your belt, and plenty of volunteering.

The Peace Corps/Americorps is a pretty big commitment. I would only take this on if you are really passionate about the cause.

 

[YCAGA]

So then why do I still see a sentiment on here that getting accepted to med school and declining to attend is a huge red flag.

Because it is a huge red flag.

I've suspected this for some time now- it USED to be a red flag because schools had the MAR, but now they don't, so they have no way of knowing if you were previously accepted or not and the vast majority dont ask either.

Plenty of schools ask. Also, if you have applied before, previous cycles very well could come up in an interview (mine did).

Top 3 rules in medicine are don't lie, don't lie, and don't lie. That includes lying by omission.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

You should never give up an MD acceptance (assuming not calnorthstate) for three main reasons.

-the process is so random that you may never be admitted again, let alone to a better school
-if it comes up in an application or interview, it’s probably going to lead to rejection (actually, the only school that I’ve at which I’ve been officially waitlisted asked about why I didn’t get in the first time. I said that I did and explained but it disrupted the entire flow of interview)
-it is unlikely for most applicants that ~5 months would be enough to build an app that could merit a T20 acceptance

 

[DoctorFate]

Because it is a huge red flag.

Plenty of schools ask. Also, if you have applied before, previous cycles very well could come up in an interview (mine did).

Top 3 rules in medicine are don't lie, don't lie, and don't lie. That includes lying by omission.

Having applied this year and specifically looked for that question, I can tell you that the overwhelming majority didnt ask. That said, the lowest ranked school I applied to was approximately ranked #50 so there's selection bias here.

I got 10 IIs so far, the topic of my reapplication only came up twice and in a positive light, with both interviewers saying they were very glad to see me wait a year (obviously I cited a better reason than prestige/merit aid- that was not the only reason I reapplied, but a major factor.). Was accepted at every school that released decisions so far as well, so it's unlikely that it counted as a red flag in any way.

 

[YCAGA]

Having applied this year and specifically looked for that question, I can tell you that the overwhelming majority didnt ask. That said, the lowest ranked school I applied to was approximately ranked #50 so there's selection bias here.

I got 10 IIs so far, the topic of my reapplication only came up twice and in a positive light, with both interviewers saying they were very glad to see me wait a year (obviously I cited a better reason than prestige/merit aid- that was not the only reason I reapplied, but a major factor.). Was accepted at every school that released decisions so far as well, so it's unlikely that it counted as a red flag in any way.

Did you have acceptances in the previous cycle? And did you mentioned that in interviews?

That said, the lowest ranked school I applied to was approximately ranked #50 so there's selection bias here.

And I am glad you acknowledge that. Middle and low ranked schools will logically care more about declined acceptances because yield is always a concern for them. Someone who has turned down an MD acceptance before probably cares more about prestige even more than the average premed.

 

[DoctorFate]

You should never give up an MD acceptance (assuming not calnorthstate) for three main reasons.

-the process is so random that you may never be admitted again, let alone to a better school
-if it comes up in an application or interview, it’s probably going to lead to rejection (actually, the only school that I’ve at which I’ve been officially waitlisted asked about why I didn’t get in the first time. I said that I did and explained but it disrupted the entire flow of interview)
-it is unlikely for most applicants that ~5 months would be enough to build an app that could merit a T20 acceptance

you're complete right that "it is unlikely for most applicants that ~5 months would be enough to build an app that could merit a T20 acceptance". Hence why there is that old advice that applicants should always prepare for reapplication. I began preparing for a reapplication in August, shortly after finishing all my secondaries in late July. So, about 10 months.

It will only come up in an application or interview if you specifically mention it in your app, especially as most schools don't ask and now, without the MAR, schools have no way of knowing. In your case, it was critical to mention why you had prior acceptances you didn't pursue. However, for most that is probably not the case. It certainly wouldn't have been for me.

Did you have acceptances in the previous cycle? And did you mentioned that in interviews?

And I am glad you acknowledge that. Middle and low ranked schools will logically care more about declined acceptances because yield is always a concern for them. Someone who has turned down an MD acceptance before probably cares more about prestige even more than the average premed.

I withdrew prior to acceptance, as I saw on many different posts on this site that turning down acceptances black lists you at all future med schools. This sentiment was true until the MAR was discontinued in 2018. However, I didn't really know the fine print around the MAR at that time, and even on threads 2019-2021 most people still thought medical schools would somehow know and blacklist you if you had prior acceptances. Had I known this were not true, then I probably wouldn't have withdrawn.

It's not just about prestige tbh. While I care about that, I intend on pursuing one of the most competitive residencies that has a reputation for being one of two residencies that cares the most about school prestige. On top of that, I have a lot of ambitions outside of medicine, specifically healthtech entrepreneurship and politics for which top schools would be very helpful. I'm targeting a residency at Stanford, which helps deeply with securing venture capital funding (Harvard and Penn/Wharton- the other top schools- focus more on private equity) (@voxveritatisetlucis @srirachamayonnaise give me some thoughts if you have a minute, this is what I was told by others in the field). This ambition pretty much necessitates a T20 school, and the higher the better.

 

[DoctorFate]

Because it is a huge red flag.

Plenty of schools ask. Also, if you have applied before, previous cycles very well could come up in an interview (mine did).

Top 3 rules in medicine are don't lie, don't lie, and don't lie. That includes lying by omission.

btw did you reapply for any special reason, or nope? were/are you high stat (I've heard being a high stat reapplicant is especially dangerous)? and are you currently a med student or still in the application process?

 

[jhmmd]

btw did you reapply for any special reason, or nope? were/are you high stat (I've heard being a high stat reapplicant is especially dangerous)? and are you currently a med student or still in the application process?

Why? Because it begs the question, "Why didn't you get in the first time?" That doesn't make a lot of sense. Worse stats can only hurt.

 

[DoctorFate]

Why? Because it begs the question, "Why didn't you get in the first time?" That doesn't make a lot of sense. Worse stats can only hurt.

I think it's more so about the degree of hurt, not directly being compared. Like for a high stat reapplicant, it might be a 20% penalty whereas for a normal stat reapplicant it's 10% and for low stat it's 0% because, as you mentioned, that question exists. Even with the penalty, high stat>normal stat>low stat.

I agree with you, but adcoms on this site have often brought up the problem of being a high stat reapplicants for the reason you mentioned. I tend to think it's overblown. Then again, I had a very good excuse for being a reapplicant.

 

[jhmmd]

you're complete right that "it is unlikely for most applicants that ~5 months would be enough to build an app that could merit a T20 acceptance". Hence why there is that old advice that applicants should always prepare for reapplication. I began preparing for a reapplication in August, shortly after finishing all my secondaries in late July. So, about 10 months.

It will only come up in an application or interview if you specifically mention it in your app, especially as most schools don't ask and now, without the MAR, schools have no way of knowing. In your case, it was critical to mention why you had prior acceptances you didn't pursue. However, for most that is probably not the case. It certainly wouldn't have been for me.


I withdrew prior to acceptance, as I saw on many different posts on this site that turning down acceptances black lists you at all future med schools. This sentiment was true until the MAR was discontinued in 2018. However, I didn't really know the fine print around the MAR at that time, and even on threads 2019-2021 most people still thought medical schools would somehow know and blacklist you if you had prior acceptances. Had I known this were not true, then I probably wouldn't have withdrawn.

It's not just about prestige tbh. While I care about that, I intend on pursuing one of the most competitive residencies that has a reputation for being one of two residencies that cares the most about school prestige. On top of that, I have a lot of ambitions outside of medicine, specifically healthtech entrepreneurship and politics for which top schools would be very helpful. I'm targeting a residency at Stanford, which helps deeply with securing venture capital funding (Harvard and Penn/Wharton- the other top schools- focus more on private equity) (@voxveritatisetlucis @srirachamayonnaise give me some thoughts if you have a minute, this is what I was told by others in the field). This ambition pretty much necessitates a T20 school, and the higher the better.


I definitely am not sharing this advice for the majority of people. I was a high stat applicant with 0 American clinical experience. It is both the dumbest mistake and the easiest to rectify. When I reapplied I had 500+ hours. However, this situation is not unique either, and tbh not uncommon for people switching from MD-PhD to MD (as I did). My friend (acquaintance tbh) just a year above me didn't get any interviews his first cycle (3.9+/520). Next year he got into Columbia, Stanford, Cornell, and a few more I can't remember. It was his success that actually inspired my reapplication.

I also think it's unlikely I "lost a year for nothing by doing so." I could not only get into a much better school, I could also end up with a substantial scholarship. On top of that, I got a very good research position within my intended residency field for my gap year, which will allow me to get a minimum of 2 publications and perhaps even one medical textbook chapter authorship by the time I enter medical school. At the same time, I'm working on publications in other fields, and expect 4 additional publications from that (2 which have already been submitted). I currently have 3 publications. My goal is to enter med school with 10 pubs, 3 of which are first authorships. I'm essentially using my gap year as a higher paid (50k salary) research year and intend to graduate med school in 4 years.

Again, I've said this over and over. I am absolutely not saying this is the correct path for the vast majority of people. I'm posting this for the few people for which it is applicable. And those people do exist- I am not unique. I already cited one person a year older than me. There's another that messaged me on SDN that is making a similar decision. @voxveritatisetlucis while this process has some randomness, it is not completely so. I've predicted my total interview numbers, the specific locations I will receive interviews, and even how many I will receive per month reasonably accurately. I'm not sure if you remember, but in the Mayo specific thread we had a discussion back in August where I said I expected 10-12 interviews total. If this process was truly random, or even significantly random, then I would not be able to do this.

Is the bolded sentence your reason for re-applying? Just curious cuz I wasn't aware that clinical exp. needs to be done in the U.S.