Interesting thread comparing Carib. SGU to DO

[DocEspana]

side note: no one said the attrition rate was 60%. lets cut that nonsense out now. I suggested is slightly under 40%. Thats what the sheer input-output differential suggests. You guys trying to defend it have literally given me the sources you requested and just need to look at them all at once to realize that 1000+ going in and 600+ going out is a 40% loss.

As for the rest of the details, I have personal friends who are doing fine in St. George right now who have given me the inside scoop that they make no allusions about only letting about the top 40% take the boards immediately and another 20% take it only about a year late (yes, some opt to do so through longer programs. But idk why).

BTW source for tons of info: Associated Medical Schools of New York, March 2008 release to every medical school in NY entitled "Payment for Clinical Clerkships". You can look it up. I am using a paper copy of it, but it sure to be on the internet too.

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[Brigade4Radiant]

side note: no one said the attrition rate was 60%. lets cut that nonsense out now. I suggested is slightly under 40%. Thats what the sheer input-output differential suggests. You guys trying to defend it have literally given me the sources you requested and just need to look at them all at once to realize that 1000+ going in and 600+ going out is a 40% loss.

As for the rest of the details, I have personal friends who are doing fine in St. George right now who have given me the inside scoop that they make no allusions about only letting about the top 40% take the boards immediately and another 20% take it only about a year late (yes, some opt to do so through longer programs. But idk why).

BTW source for tons of info: Associated Medical Schools of New York, March 2008 release to every medical school in NY entitled "Payment for Clinical Clerkships". You can look it up. I am using a paper copy of it, but it sure to be on the internet too.

I know SGU pays for clinical clerkship that is why the NYCOM schools don't want SGU students there because they are taking their spots.

http://www.sgu.edu/news-events/news-archives10-fall-whitecoat-ceremony.html

http://www.sgu.edu/news-events/news-archives10-new-class-medical-wcc.html

SGU takes about 780-800 students a year at the main camups

And graduates about 680 at the main campus the others are either dropped out took a year off or are in the 5 year program.
http://www.sgu.edu/news-events/news-archives10-43rd-som-commencement.html

This is for the SGU campus the other 120+ are in England

http://www.sgu.edu/school-of-medicine/keith-taylor-scholars-faq.html

And some don't participate in the US match.

 

[87DO15]

There is the proof everyone wanted right there. They enroll in a rolling manner. 500+ students per semester is 1,000 a year. You need to be careful with their numbers because they are constantly given without context. I pointed out two months ago that SGU posted 650ish matches this year for an entering class that they self-stated as being 500. Their numbers don't match up at first til you stop and go "they enroll two classes each year, but report only one graduating class each year. The stats are mostly made by not admitting that one entering class is only half of a graduating class"

Not sure if 87DO was defending SGU or not, but his point proved mine perfectly. By enrolling two classes of 500 (or really 4 classes of 350, 150, 350 and 150. but whatever) you get 1,000 students a year. Of which 600+ actually take the boards. The other 400 disappear or are stuck in a constant repetition of years limbo. These numbers are all out there in the public view. You just need to ignore the "percents" they give and actually do the math yourself since they use parameters no regular person would use.

again: they are not like Ross who cuts people from pretty much day 1 after collecting all the tuition for pre-clinicals upfront. And not like Ross who disallows repeats, they simply dismiss you. But SGU makes its money by only allowing the top 60% to take the USMLE, and untl you are in that top 60% you are free to keep paying tuition to retake over and over.

Nah, I was trying to help prove your point, Doc. I've heard from people down there that the class size is getting ridiculous, and they are worried about 3rd year rotations.

Perhaps this is a bit of a conspiracy theory, but I think SGU sees the writing on the wall. With the increasing number of medical school spots in the US, it's going to be tougher for everybody to get residency spots. While this will affect all groups (US MD, US DO, FMG/IMG), it'll likely affect the IMG/FMG first, then the DOs (though I may be incorrectly hopeful in this order), then the US MDs.

By increasing the class size, they are getting as many people through their doors as possible, with little guarantee that they'll be successful in the match. What other possible reason could their be for increasing their already excessively large classes?

Alright, that's the end of my rant (almost). I just think it's disingenuous for SGU to claim they are truly committed to their students when they are working on a system that will practically ensure that many of their students graduate without a job in a few years.

 

[NYEMMED]

I know SGU pays for clinical clerkship that is why the NYCOM schools don't want SGU students there because they are taking their spots.

http://www.sgu.edu/news-events/news-archives10-fall-whitecoat-ceremony.html

http://www.sgu.edu/news-events/news-archives10-new-class-medical-wcc.html

SGU takes about 780-800 students a year at the main camups

And graduates about 680 at the main campus the others are either dropped out took a year off or are in the 5 year program.
http://www.sgu.edu/news-events/news-archives10-43rd-som-commencement.html

This is for the SGU campus the other 120+ are in England

http://www.sgu.edu/school-of-medicine/keith-taylor-scholars-faq.html

And some don't participate in the US match.

Thats probably not for much longer though, There are 2 bills in the NYS senate. one to block payment for clerkships, and one to block foreign medical schools from rotating in NY.

Also I read the links for the whitecoat ceremonies but when do they actually have the ceremony? My school has it literally 2 weeks before 3rd year clerkships and after step 1, clearly if this is the case in SGU this would not support your argument.

 

[patel2]

Originally Posted by Brigade4Radiant
I know SGU pays for clinical clerkship that is why the NYCOM schools don't want SGU students there because they are taking their spots.

DEYYYY TOOOOK YER SPOTS!

SGU U TOOOOK ERRRR SPOTS



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uORAyORWRAA[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

Thats probably not for much longer though, There are 2 bills in the NYS senate. one to block payment for clerkships, and one to block foreign medical schools from rotating in NY.

Also I read the links for the whitecoat ceremonies but when do they actually have the ceremony? My school has it literally 2 weeks before 3rd year clerkships and after step 1, clearly if this is the case in SGU this would not support your argument.

They do their white coat ceremony before the start classes as a M1. Kind of how my school does it. As it says in the article and by going by those numbers the attrition rate is 13%. Not the 40% you claimed it was.

 

[SFO-IST]

DEYYYY TOOOOK YER SPOTS!

SGU U TOOOOK ERRRR SPOTS



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uORAyORWRAA[/YOUTUBE]

What a gem!

 

[NYEMMED]

They do their white coat ceremony before the start classes as a M1. Kind of how my school does it. As it says in the article and by going by those numbers the attrition rate is 13%. Not the 40% you claimed it was.

You should probably look back, I never mentioned anything about attrition rates...

 

[DocEspana]

DEYYYY TOOOOK YER SPOTS!

SGU U TOOOOK ERRRR SPOTS



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uORAyORWRAA[/YOUTUBE]

I've made my point decently clear here already (and this thread has sort of gone off the rails a bit. this was supposed to be discussing how to be above just yelling and throwing around numbers). So no more arguments, probably, from me.

On the other hand. I want to award patel2 the prize for 'winning' this thread. Congratulations.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

You should probably look back, I never mentioned anything about attrition rates...

Oh well but my point still stands I just wanted to get rid of some common misconceptions that people have since many claim a high attrition rate for SGU.

 

[DocEspana]

Oh well but my point still stands I just wanted to get rid of some common misconceptions that people have since many claim a high attrition rate for SGU.

I know I said I was out, but this is a simple point. You dont think 800+ students in grenada plus 240 students in UK+Grenada, since they also enroll 120 twice a year, (so 1040) is not a big attrition rate when they only matched 505 students in 2010 and 554 in 2011?

Even if you argue that some of them go to england or stay in granada... they admit to graduating only 650 of the 1040. So thats only another 100 people, at max. Thats still more than a 35% rate of people who do NOT graduate on time for whatever reason. Also the 5 year program kids are *not* included in the 1040 students taken in. Just like every other school in the world, bridge programs are counted in their own separate category as they are technically undergraduate education that accellerates into a graduate degree by the end.

I'm *not* ripping on the students, but the system is not a forgiving one. It is simply accurate to call it a place with a high attrition rate. There is just no other way to analyse the numbers.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

I know I said I was out, but this is a simple point. You dont think 800+ students in grenada plus 240 students in UK+Grenada, since they also enroll 120 twice a year, (so 1040) is not a big attrition rate when they only matched 505 students in 2010 and 554 in 2011?

Even if you argue that some of them go to england or stay in granada... they admit to graduating only 650 of the 1040. So thats only another 100 people, at max. Thats still more than a 35% rate of people who do NOT graduate on time for whatever reason. Also the 5 year program kids are *not* included in the 1040 students taken in. Just like every other school in the world, bridge programs are counted in their own separate category as they are technically undergraduate education that accellerates into a graduate degree by the end.

I'm *not* ripping on the students, but the system is not a forgiving one. It is simply accurate to call it a place with a high attrition rate. There is just no other way to analyse the numbers.

Only 3,795 students are in the real M.D program. The 4000 number you are getting includes the pre-med program and the MPH program which is under the College of Medicine. So you cant you the 1000 number. Also 30% of the graduating medical students obtained residencies that were not from NRMP like CaRMS.Some of them also have to take exams such as the PLAB. The also graduate 698 students at June. And my 5 years thing Im not talking about a bridge program I'm talking about people who have to repeat years.

 

[HockeyDr09]

Only 3,795 students are in the real M.D program. The 4000 number you are getting includes the pre-med program and the MPH program which is under the College of Medicine. So you cant you the 1000 number. Also 30% of the graduating medical students obtained residencies that were not from NRMP like CaRMS.Some of them also have to take exams such as the PLAB. The also graduate 698 students at June. And my 5 years thing Im not talking about a bridge program I'm talking about people who have to repeat years.

Only 3,795 students , I thought LECOM was huge. Having 30% (1138) outside of the NRMP sounds pretty significant to me. Looking at the match spreadsheet shows ~200 PGY-1 matches in NY and ~80 in NJ out a total 554 that matched (That's half of all matched wound up in NY/NJ). Considering all the talk of Caribbean schools losing rotations in NY you would expect residency matches in those areas to drop as well (I would assume it's a lot easier to match in a place that you have rotated in an built a rapport with administrators). Crunch the numbers all you want, it looks like it is going to get a lot more difficult for Caribbean grads.

 

[mulberry]

I wrote the legislation being brought forward in NY and the national level that examines the educational systems of SGU, Ross, Saba and AUC and suggests alternate ways for them to participate in the medical education system without displacing as many american students. Uncovering all that data they dont want to come to light was a big part of it. So, yes, I'm 100% sure I'm talking about St. George's. Their enrollment is measured at "900+" and leaked student attendance documents show 1020 (ish. I'm going off memory right now rather than going through my giant folder of photocopied stuff to find this) students in 2008.

No one is a bigger diploma mill than Ross who tries to hide how big of a cut-down they have by having two campuses with entirely different stats until they have cut down the unwanted students and merge the stats. I will give you that SGU isnt anything like that. I will also say that SGU definitely makes the most respected students. But the issue is that they are not *that* much better than Ross given the large amount of people they still esoterically cut. In that one sense AUC and Saba are much better, enrolling about what they graduate.

as for proof. You gotta give me a day or two. I have to host these things to show them. Everything I've gotten in this particular vein would *not* go into an official legislation unless i wanted it to be killed on the floor for being antagonistic to the offshore schools. (and frankly, some of it is inadmissible as I could never get these schools to release official copies to me, but I trust my sources). As such I haven't found the need to upload them for my legislation, but I have collected them along the way. Since they come from photocopies of internal documents, private e-mail conversations (which I have been allowed access to. No covert stuff here), and other 'non-internet' sources I have to get my IT guy to host documents online for me if you want me to show them. I'm not bugging him at 12:30AM to do this right now.

This is what you do on your free time?

 

[DocEspana]

This is what you do on your free time?

Somewhere along the line in my life I made a terrible mistake and decided that politics would be a fun thing to get into.

 

[patel2]

Somewhere along the line in my life I made a terrible mistake and decided that politics would be a fun thing to get into.

haha I'm with you. I wish physicians would get more involved in politics