Is Caribbean Med school that bad?

[Goro femme]

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It's not a Hail Mary if you go to the top 3-4 Caribbean medical schools (unless you're Aaron Rodgers). Rather, it's more like a free-throw, 70% success.

@Mikkus- There really is no way to make them listen. Is there? Again, I applaud your efforts.

 

[mwsapphire]

After 20+ years dealing with Caribbean schools, the more I look at them, the less I like them. Yet, I am not ready to wipe them off the table completely. They drag in many naive, young students (and their parents) who do not have the academic ability to be docs and take their money. And the opportunities are shrinking for those who graduate. Yet, having an older student who has diligently work for a couple a cycles with applications, who has shown the hard work, who can't overcome some earlier academic disaster, who understands the risks, and goes in with open eyes, it still may be a viable alternative. My estimation shows about 45% who start say Ross or SGU, will actually graduate and find some residency slot. I would further say 10%-25% match into a "preferred" program (ie at least in specialty they are looking for) But I wouldnt recommend them without knowing the applicant well, nor would I recommend without at least two application cycles for both MD and DO with at least a year break in between (ie skip a cycle) for application repair and/or enhancement.

Aren't DO schools ( up until recently) for people with earlier academic disasters? ( As in, before the recent issue with grade replacement)

 

[Medic741]

Over the past decade or so, DO schools have become much more competitive (ie ratio of applicants to seats) and therefore have become more selective (ie increasing academic metrics for entry). With both MD and DO having less than 40% of applicants becoming matriculants each year, an academic reinvention candidate will find it still a challenge to be accepted.

As an aside, why these students choose risky off shore schools over podiatry is something I should examine.

Applicant numbers tripled for DO between 2000-2016 while the n spots available doubled. More do schools may open in future. This trend will continue and the squeeze will make the IMG pathway untenable. Numbers don't lie, Carib schools do

http://www.aacom.org/docs/default-source/data-and-trends/2017-Trends-COM-AEG-XLS.xlsx?sfvrsn=70

I think the government should reconsider providing loans to Caribbean medical schools, residency match rates are low + drop-down rate is high. This is a tax drain On a limited resource that could be a much better reallocated to Medicare to increase The total number of residency spots and actually address one of the bottlenecks in the physician shortage.

 

[Goro]

More like < 50% and this number will be declining.

It's not a Hail Mary if you go to the top 3-4 Caribbean medical schools (unless you're Aaron Rodgers). Rather, it's more like a free-throw, 70% success.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Applicant numbers tripled for DO between 2000-2016 while the n spots available doubled. More do schools may open in future. This trend will continue and the squeeze will make the IMG pathway untenable. Numbers don't lie, Carib schools do

http://www.aacom.org/docs/default-source/data-and-trends/2017-Trends-COM-AEG-XLS.xlsx?sfvrsn=70

I think the government should reconsider providing loans to Caribbean medical schools, residency match rates are low + drop-down rate is high. This is a tax drain On a limited resource that could be a much better reallocated to Medicare to increase The total number of residency spots and actually address one of the bottlenecks in the physician shortage.

DeVry will never let that happen. They'd lose so much money.

 

[TXMED_1695]

$250,000-$300,000 in debt and no job. How can it ever be worse than that outcome?

 

[aformerstudent]

Read my first post about my experience at MUA. That sums up the Caribbean experience pretty well. I was reading some of Mikkus' posts and they have some good info on how it works at SGU should you be looking to go that route.

After really reflecting on my Caribbean experience here is what I would tell you. You can certainly become a doctor going the Caribbean route but there is absolutely no guarantee that you will no matter what your stats are. It can work for the right applicant but it's not for most everybody.

I'll share with you a story that sticks out in my mind and I think it sums of the difference between going MD/DO or offshore very simplistically. Years ago, I attended a Mini-Med program at my state medical school. We had a lot of interaction with the med students and I remember one of the students saying "I remember the time and where I was when I got the call from the Dean that I was accepted." I didn't understand the significance back then but I do now. He remembers that because that was the time he knew he was going to become a doctor. It's not like that taking the offshore route. Caribbean students don't celebrate when they get their acceptance letter, they celebrate when they match.

That being said, I am not 100% against the Caribbean because I have TONS of friends and acquaintances who have succeeded down this route. I can't speak for those who chose the Caribbean path >15 years ago but for those that are there right now, I have one friend who interviewed at his state school but was told by the Dean at that school to work on his EC's and he would be a much stronger candidate for next round. He didn't want to waste a year so he went to SGU. He's finishing third year now and didn't miss a beat at SGU and he is happy with either family medicine or IM. If you are like him, yeah take the risk because you stand a much greater chance than someone who couldn't even get an interview at a US MD program. I mean someone has to match at these schools and this dude was pretty confident that he was going to be one of them. His gamble looks to be paying off but look at what he was bringing to the table first. Most students at these schools don't come in with those stats.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

It's not a Hail Mary if you go to the top 3-4 Caribbean medical schools (unless you're Aaron Rodgers). Rather, it's more like a free-throw, 70% success.

No it's not. They matriculate two classes each year with ~800 students each so ~1600 total. They only have ~750 matches each year including a large number of dead end preliminary spots. That's ~47% of people who matriculate that actually get a residency, accounting for the prelims that will probably not lead to anything the number drops to ~45% so right about where @gonnif has stated. Then you could go even further and look at how many actually got their specialty or residency of choice, the answer is not many.

 

[Stagg737]

Just to add a slightly dissenting opinion, I do think that there are extremely specific situations in which a Caribbean medical school would be a reasonable choice. For example, if you had academic qualifications that indicated you could succeed in medical school (like a 32+ MCAT and a good GPA) but had something on your record that would make it impossible for you to ever get into a real medical school (i.e. getting kicked out of college for cheating or something like that). In that situation, I don't think it would be unreasonable to suggest that you would be amongst the students who are capable of getting past the academic barriers of medical school and can pass Step 1, thus giving you a somewhat viable path to becoming a doctor. Of course, it would still be a considerable financial risk and at that point I would probably advise just picking a different career.

The problem with that is that if a residency program asks why you went to a Caribbean school instead of staying in the U.S. then you're in an ethical dilemma. Assuming you're honest and ethically moral you're going to have to tell them you messed up bad enough in undergrad that you basically got blacklisted in the U.S. You can hope that residencies will give you the benefit of the doubt and look past it, but it's very likely that some won't.

As I have said many times, a decade or more ago, the Caribbean was a reasonable path for a student to become a physician. However, since both MD and DO schools have grown both in number and size, producing 30% more graduates in a decade ending in 2019, with an even larger increase in the size of the overall applicant pool, but yet virtually no growth in the number of residency slots, it reduces opportunity for IMGs to obtain any residency slot upon graduation. Thus as an advisor, it is difficult to recommend to a student to go these schools, risking huge debt and smaller chances for residency, thus practicing medicine, without exhausting all the possibilities for a US medical school education. As I've said often, before considering any offshore school applicant must go through at least two application cycles for both MD and DO with at least a year break in between (ie skip a cycle) for application repair and/or enhancement. the break is necessary to analyze and understand the weaknesses in an application. Repair may be as simple as reorganizing rewriting application or it may require postbacc, SMP, MCAT, or additional extracurricular such as clinical volunteering and other items. I strongly advise that no student should consider off shore schools until the above has been done.

I'd add some caveats to the reason for applying to Carib schools.

1) You need to be willing to take on a lot of debt or have enough saved up that you wouldn't be screwed if med school falls through. It's a high risk choice, applicants should understand that before making it.

2) You're essentially limiting yourself to the non-competitive fields unless you're a stud. Then you've got a shot at the moderately competitive fields like EM or gas. Sure, there's those one or two guys that match neurosurg or ortho, but just to match those fields you'd have to have stats and an application that would make a US MD competitive to match at an elite residency like MGH.

3) Understand that with a mediocre CV or even an okay one, you may never get into a U.S. residency program. So if you're okay with practicing abroad, then it's not as big of an issue. If you've got your heart set on coming back to the U.S./staying in the U.S., you may want to reconsider.

4) There's a very good chance you'll be there more than 4 years. It's fairly common for people that attend Carib schools to take a semester or year off to study for boards. I've also talked to people that weren't able to finish their clinicals in 2 years and had to take an extra semester to finish them. If you go Carib, be prepared to potentially be in med school 5-6 years.

5) Understand that your curriculum may not be up to par with your US counterparts. This might not be true for every med school, but I've heard friends that have run into Carib students on rotations say their knowledge base seemed lacking. From what people have said on here a lot of Caribbean rotation sites are pretty lacking in quality. Idk how true that is, but it's a common theme I've seen on here.

As an aside, why these students choose risky off shore schools over podiatry is something I should examine.

I've heard 2 reasons. The first is that they don't don't want to limit themselves to just working on feet. Considering matching FM or low-tier IM is very realistic for Carib grads assuming they make it to the match and apply broadly, I don't think it's a terrible choice there. The other reason is that a lot of people don't think podiatrists are real doctors and look down on them. It's the same reason some people would rather go to a Carib MD than a DO school, because prestige matters more to them than their actual career.

 

[Shams al Deen]

No it's not. They matriculate two classes each year with ~800 students each so ~1600 total. They only have ~750 matches each year including a large number of dead end preliminary spots. That's ~47% of people who matriculate that actually get a residency, accounting for the prelims that will probably not lead to anything the number drops to ~45% so right about where @gonnif has stated. Then you could go even further and look at how many actually got their specialty or residency of choice, the answer is not many.

http://www.ecfmg.org/resources/NRMP...atch-International-Medical-Graduates-2014.pdf
68% of US-IMG grads from Grenada (SGU) will match, and this does not include all those who gain spots afterwards in SOAP. That's basically a free-throw, like I said. It's not a hail mary.

You'll then say that the attrition rate is sky high. Well, not really. SGU attrition rate is under 10%. And most of that 10% drop out after the first semester (friends at SGU have told me this, don't have real data). So those people didn't "waste 6 years and 200k".

Bottomline, if you really buckle down and WORK, you can totally make it out of a top Carrib school like SGU. The school itself won't kill your dreams as long as you put in that work.

 

[Mikkus]

http://www.ecfmg.org/resources/NRMP...atch-International-Medical-Graduates-2014.pdf
68% of US-IMG grads from Grenada (SGU) will match, and this does not include all those who gain spots afterwards in SOAP. That's basically a free-throw, like I said. It's not a hail mary.

You'll then say that the attrition rate is sky high. Well, not really. SGU attrition rate is under 10%. And most of that 10% drop out after the first semester (friends at SGU have told me this, don't have real data). So those people didn't "waste 6 years and 200k".

Bottomline, if you really buckle down and WORK, you can totally make it out of a top Carrib school like SGU. The school itself won't kill your dreams as long as you put in that work.

Those friends from SGU might be skewing their numbers a good bit. There were around 800 people in my incoming anatomy class in m1. Add in 70 ish for KBT class. Another 550 ish for the January term. SGU's published match list shows 855 people, and remember that includes both students who decelled and people who are attempting match for the 2nd or 3rd time. Therefore, there is no possible way the attrition could be 10%.
I knew a lot of people who were smart, but just could not complete the program. Knowing one failed test will end your career is enough to stress anyone out. Add in living in an nation where clean water, fresh groceries, and personal safety are not a guarantee and surviving the island itself just might kill your dreams if you don't play your cards right.
Just "working" will not get everyone through the Caribbean, an intrinsic test taking ability along with adaptability is one of the top keys to success.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

68% of US-IMG grads from Grenada (SGU) will match,

You'll then say that the attrition rate is sky high. Well, not really. SGU attrition rate is under 10%

Well yeah, if all you do isn't believe what they tell you instead of looking at the actual data and numbers. The real numbers do not support your narrative. Carib students who have gone through it have told you that you are wrong...

 

[aformerstudent]

It's not a Hail Mary if you go to the top 3-4 Caribbean medical schools (unless you're Aaron Rodgers). Rather, it's more like a free-throw, 70% success.

Why are you speaking for all those schools? Do you have experience with all of those schools? There's a nice article online about a student from AUC who didn't match and ended up going to nursing school...with an MD.

SGU attrition rate is under 10%. And most of that 10% drop out after the first semester

It's not 10% man

 

[supsh17]

Caribbean schools are a joke. No requirements...just a pulse and a paycheck. They routinely accept more students than rotation spots for $$$ by kicking out students who fail their exams. I wouldn't be surprised if they arbitrarily increased the required cutoff based off the class performance to guarantee they don't oversaturate their rotation spots..which basically means they are intent on failing students. Further, transparency is non-existent with these places...they claim xx% match rate without providing a full picture of what % of the initial class even made it to that point. Finally, the merging of residencies and increased enrollment of MD/DO schools will ultimately squeeze more and more IMGs out of the match. There couldn't be a worse time to go to the Caribbean for medical school.

The end.

EDIT: I just re-read your post and realized you already know all of this, so why is this even a question for you? Seems like you are looking for one person to suggest you go.

I'm not looking for someone to talk me into going, but Im pretty much against going already. I just wanted to hear others' opinions and get "the other side of the coin" just to make sure I am correct and make the right decision. I hear mixed stories (many successful ones surprisingly) and from people who actually went and graduated from the Caribbean, but I am doubtful even with the positive experiences because you dont always know if theyre telling you the whole story or just telling you the end result and not how hard/time-consuming/shouldnt-have-done-it it actually was.

 

[deleted707454]

https://milliondollarmistake.wordpress.com is a good take on it all.

I had similar stats to you, and got several interviews. Starting in July

 

[swooshpoon]

So I used to be one of those who look down on people who get their MD from Caribbean schools but all of that changed when I met this guy from a dating app of all places. He got his degree in Business and ultimately realized that he wasn't going to make a lot of money in the future. He decided to take a couple science classes during his senior year, graduated, took a couple more science classes. He applied to a Caribbean school, got in and is now practicing here in the US as a locum (traveling doctor). It's been 5-6 years since he started practicing (he's in his late 30s now). From what I gathered, he and his classmates had their residencies in the US, no problem. He was guaranteed a spot in New Orleans and went there. This guy worked hard. I asked if there was ever a time when he thought about quitting and he said absolutely no. He's now making $300,000/ year. He said he was recruited as a locum straight out of residency. The agency was obviously making money from him. Two years down the line he decided to build his own recruiting agency. Not only is he his own boss, but he also makes a lot more than permanent docs. The point of my post it yes you do have to be careful but you also have to be smart about your choices.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I'm not looking for someone to talk me into going, but Im pretty much against going already. I just wanted to hear others' opinions and get "the other side of the coin" just to make sure I am correct and make the right decision. I hear mixed stories (many successful ones surprisingly) and from people who actually went and graduated from the Caribbean, but I am doubtful even with the positive experiences because you dont always know if theyre telling you the whole story or just telling you the end result and not how hard/time-consuming/shouldnt-have-done-it it actually was.

Survivor bias.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

So I used to be one of those who look down on people who get their MD from Caribbean schools but all of that changed when I met this guy from a dating app of all places. He got his degree in Business and ultimately realized that he wasn't going to make a lot of money in the future. He decided to take a couple science classes during his senior year, graduated, took a couple more science classes. He applied to a Caribbean school, got in and is now practicing here in the US as a locum (traveling doctor). It's been 5-6 years since he started practicing (he's in his late 30s now). From what I gathered, he and his classmates had their residencies in the US, no problem. He was guaranteed a spot in New Orleans and went there. This guy worked hard. I asked if there was ever a time when he thought about quitting and he said absolutely no. He's now making $300,000/ year. He said he was recruited as a locum straight out of residency. The agency was obviously making money from him. Two years down the line he decided to build his own recruiting agency. Not only is he his own boss, but he also makes a lot more than permanent docs. The point of my post it yes you do have to be careful but you also have to be smart about your choices.

He has been practicing for 6 years, that means he graduated a minimum of 9 years ago. The Carib was much different almost 10 years ago. Residencies were much easier to get (still not great, but way better than now). Things change, and the Carib is a terrible choice now for almost anyone. Many people who were successful a decade ago would not be today. And going to med school there now means you'll be matching in 4 years. Given the trend, do you think things will be better or worse?

Spoiler

It's worse.

 

[jtd2081]

It is interesting to me. I was talking to a friend from high school about his medical school plans and he told me he was going to some school I can't remember the name of internationally. We are not talking about the *good* Caribbean schools. We are talking about bottom of the barrel med school... I am interested in how he will play out when residencies come out. He was so proud to be going to medical school but I am not sure if he knows how risky what he has done is. He had abysmal stats and if this doesn't shout "I just want the MD" then idk what does.