Liberty U

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Do people have a problem with liberty because of its religious views or the fact that it acts like a for profit university?
 
cliquesh said:
Do people have a problem with liberty because of its religious views or the fact that it acts like a for profit university?
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Neither. It's for pseudo science in their undergrad and graduate science courses with young earth creationism.
 
PS4 said:
Please show me where there is pseudo science in the medical and/or graduate science courses.
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They haven't even released their medical school course content, but I didn't claim knowledge about the medical curriculum containing pseudoscience as a fact. It is not unreasonable to question if a school that gives improper premedical curriculum should be allowed to teach medicine or if they might have it at the COM. The fact that this school supports and teaches young earth creationism is fairly common knowledge. I just checked that they don't offer any hard science masters or doctorates, so I'll retract the graduate school portion.
 
PS4 said:
I understand your concern because their undergrad is a bit "off." But once they release their catalog for the COM, we can see if COM is a redeeming factor to the school or not.
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It's not just a bit off. I find it gravely concerning when myth takes precedence over established science. They simply don't deserve a medical school.
 
PS4 said:
I understand your concern because their undergrad is a bit "off." But once they release their catalog for the COM, we can see if COM is a redeeming factor to the school or not.
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TriagePreMed said:
Neither. It's for pseudo science in their undergrad and graduate science courses with young earth creationism.
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Maybe the school is starting to turn itself around, you never know. Either way, I'm not sure how LUCOM is any different from LLU in this regard (yes I know LLU is an MD school with a lot of cash, but that's a red herring.)
 
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Are they really starting their class next fall? When did they get added to aacomas? I could see a reallg low stat class if they dont get many people to apply.
 
PS4 said:
I personally leave the politics for the politicians. For profit or no profit, christian or muslim or atheist or scientologist, I don't care about the history of a school.

My job is to take advantage of attaining the medical degree and never look back. Doctors won't care, and neither will patients. Once you graduate from medical school and become a resident, the medical school itself becomes irrelevant.

- Jimmy
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Science is not politics. It matters. If you want a medical degree from a subpar institution which may train you improperly, go ahead. I don't think people "won't care." I sure as hell would never hire a Liberty graduate. I don't think I'm alone on this one.
 
PS4 said:
I personally leave the politics for the politicians. For profit or no profit, christian or muslim or atheist or scientologist, I don't care about the history of a school.

My job is to take advantage of attaining the medical degree and never look back. Doctors won't care, and neither will patients. Once you graduate from medical school and become a resident, the medical school itself becomes irrelevant.

- Jimmy
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I would be ashamed of any degree that comes from a school that wants to teach how the Grand Canyon was created by "the flood" and that humans and T Rex lived side by side. That kinda crap can find its way into the medical curriculum and then next thing you know they're teaching you how the tail bone isn't really a vestigial tail since we aren't related to primates, that wisdom teeth were place in our jaw by god's intelligent design and thus shouldn't be removed, that condoms aren't safe to use, birth control shouldn't be prescribed and all pregnancies must be taken to term no matter what risk the mother's life is in. That's why they shouldn't have medical school and that's why their teachings can be harmful. My opinion, though certainly not an unreasonable one
 
TriagePreMed said:
Science is not politics. It matters. If you want a medical degree from a subpar institution which may train you improperly, go ahead. I don't think people "won't care." I sure as hell would never hire a Liberty graduate. I don't think I'm alone on this one.
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So you would make a hiring decision based on your perceptions of a group rather than on the individual's achievements and perspective? Think about that when someday you can't get in to a specific residency because some PD hands-down won't take DOs, regardless of your publications, step scores, and class rankings.
 
guylewis said:
I would be ashamed of any degree that comes from a school that wants to teach how the Grand Canyon was created by "the flood" and that humans and T Rex lived side by side. That kinda crap can find its way into the medical curriculum and then next thing you know they're teaching you how the tail bone isn't really a vestigial tail since we aren't related to primates, that wisdom teeth were place in our jaw by god's intelligent design and thus shouldn't be removed, that condoms aren't safe to use, birth control shouldn't be prescribed and all pregnancies must be taken to term no matter what risk the mother's life is in. That's why they shouldn't have medical school and that's why their teachings can be harmful. My opinion, though certainly not an unreasonable one
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Nice caricature of religious people.
 
NurWollen said:
So you would make a hiring decision based on your perceptions of a group rather than on the individual's achievements and perspective? Think about that when someday you can't get in to a specific residency because some PD hands-down won't take DOs, regardless of your publications, step scores, and class rankings.
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If they didn't want me for that reason it probably wouldn't be a good fit anyways. So meh.
 
NurWollen said:
Nice caricature of religious people.
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Sorry, that's not a caricature of religious people, that's a very accurate description of what fundamentalists believe. If you think otherwise you are deluding yourself. There are religious people who don't believe that stuff but Liberty U specifically states it teaches and believes in Young Earth creationism. Hate to break it to ya but young earth creationism is not mainstream science, but it is fundament religious teachings. Even the Vatican has stated that evolution is correct. That is a solid fact and not up for debate.
 
NurWollen said:
So you would make a hiring decision based on your perceptions of a group rather than on the individual's achievements and perspective? Think about that when someday you can't get in to a specific residency because some PD hands-down won't take DOs, regardless of your publications, step scores, and class rankings.
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It's not that. I don't think a university like Liberty gives proper education. I've seen people who can get an A in biology and don't accept evolution. I simply don't trust them because they can't evaluate evidence if it contradicts certain irrational beliefs they hold. They also can't understand biology at its core because without evolution biology doesn't make sense. The same is not true about osteopathic medicine. Sure, you can claim OMM is BS, but that's not an integral part of science.
 
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Seriously biology makes no sense with evolution.
 
Just finished applying!!! I REALLY HOPE I GET IN HERE!!!! TOP CHOICE!!!! 😀
I ADDED THE SCHOOL TODAY! ANYONE KNOW WHEN AACOMAS WILL RELEASE MY APPLICATION TO LUCOM?!?!?
 
Can anyone explain to me the apparent contradiction that schools like LLU and LUCOM have in stating that they cannot discriminate candidates on the basis of "religious affiliations in accordance to federal law", but lists holding "personal values compatible with the Christian mission(s)" of the school a requirement?
 
touchpause13 said:
If they didn't want me for that reason it probably wouldn't be a good fit anyways. So meh.
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Its the same reason why people go DO over foreign MD. There is less discrimination and less hoops to jump through. I do agree with your philosophy though but the world seems to be buried in its own politics. It is better to go the path with the least resistance.
 
FuzzyMemory said:
Can anyone explain to me the apparent contradiction that schools like LLU and LUCOM have in stating that they cannot discriminate candidates on the basis of "religious affiliations in accordance to federal law", but lists holding "personal values compatible with the Christian mission(s)" of the school a requirement?
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That's just more of the double-speak that religious fundamentalists are known for.
 
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...
 
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You all should do your research first. Isn't that something that medical students should be good at? I saw several complaints about the university making money...you obviously didn't know that LU is a non-profit university that is funded by the government.

As a Liberty University student, I believe it is safe to say that I know more about the LU biology/theology classes than any of you do. I took an LU course in undergrad called History of Life. It matches up evolution vs. creationism. At the beginning of the course, the professor stated that the course was going to be taught from an unbiased perspective and deliver true facts to the class. It was. Strengths and weaknesses of both evolution and creationism were presented and the course allowed students to analyze which side they liked more. I also took biology at Liberty. It introduced evolution just like any other biology course would...So you should really know things before you speak...

I don't appreciate the school being identified as a joke...I am a graduate student right now and I don't consider my degree to be any kind of fallacy. Oh yeah...none of my graduate courses have me studying young creationism, biblical scripture, or biblical presentations of any kind. Amazing.

Finally, if you don't want religion in your program, don't go to the school. It seems pretty simple to me. Choose a different medical school.
 
RockBanditPhil said:
You all should do your research first. Isn't that something that medical students should be good at? I saw several complaints about the university making money...you obviously didn't know that LU is a non-profit university that is funded by the government.

As a Liberty University student, I believe it is safe to say that I know more about the LU biology/theology classes than any of you do. I took an LU course in undergrad called History of Life. It matches up evolution vs. creationism. At the beginning of the course, the professor stated that the course was going to be taught from an unbiased perspective and deliver true facts to the class. It was. Strengths and weaknesses of both evolution and creationism were presented and the course allowed students to analyze which side they liked more. I also took biology at Liberty. It introduced evolution just like any other biology course would...So you should really know things before you speak...

I don't appreciate the school being identified as a joke...I am a graduate student right now and I don't consider my degree to be any kind of fallacy. Oh yeah...none of my graduate courses have me studying young creationism, biblical scripture, or biblical presentations of any kind. Amazing.

Finally, if you don't want religion in your program, don't go to the school. It seems pretty simple to me. Choose a different medical school.
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Lol...
 
An unbiased class would have told you why creationism is not scientifically accurate.

When I took evolution we spent a whole week on why creationism isn't correct.
 
Dark Ace said:
Idk it kind of sounds like a 'Indigenous beliefs 101' or 'Intro to Theistic Satanism' type of class. Probably in place merely for the sake of interest or fun. Just because they teach it doesn't necessarily mean they believe in it or expect students to believe in it or that they are proselytizing, right? At the very least, the DO faculty wouldn't. If this stuff was part of their med school curriculum then it would be a lot more concerning for sure.
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Your argument is that a university teaches something like creationism so that you don't believe in it? Remember, they are introducing the topic as fact, not as beliefs of indigenous people.
 
RockBanditPhil said:
You all should do your research first. Isn't that something that medical students should be good at? I saw several complaints about the university making money...you obviously didn't know that LU is a non-profit university that is funded by the government.

As a Liberty University student, I believe it is safe to say that I know more about the LU biology/theology classes than any of you do. I took an LU course in undergrad called History of Life. It matches up evolution vs. creationism. At the beginning of the course, the professor stated that the course was going to be taught from an unbiased perspective and deliver true facts to the class. It was. Strengths and weaknesses of both evolution and creationism were presented and the course allowed students to analyze which side they liked more. I also took biology at Liberty. It introduced evolution just like any other biology course would...So you should really know things before you speak...

I don't appreciate the school being identified as a joke...I am a graduate student right now and I don't consider my degree to be any kind of fallacy. Oh yeah...none of my graduate courses have me studying young creationism, biblical scripture, or biblical presentations of any kind. Amazing.

Finally, if you don't want religion in your program, don't go to the school. It seems pretty simple to me. Choose a different medical school.
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The fact that the school even suggests there are "strengths" to creationism shows how biased and misinformed they are. The reason everyone is up in arms against this school is because it is a mockery of education. Evolution has been proven time and time again, yet nothing concerning creationism has been proven, it's all speculation based on some archaic text people choose to base the entirety of their lives on. Therefore, it's irresponsible for an institute of higher learning to even entertain the idea that creationism might be right without any real evidence (again, not the bible); I mean, teaching creationism alongside evolution is comparable to teaching the reproductive process alongside the myth that the stork brings babies to couples.
 
I mean, teaching creationism alongside evolution is comparable to teaching the reproductive process alongside the myth that the stork brings babies to couples.
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Thanks for my new signature quote hahaha
 
PS4 said:
I'm an Agnostic that leans more towards science. I do not believe in the Bible, Christianity etc. but I am open to the idea that there could be secrets to the universe that no Biology textbook could ever write down. With that being said I can say that this ideology is not healthy.

I think college students should be given the opportunity to learn about our history. Learn where religion comes from, what it supports, learn where evolution comes from, what it supports and etc.

I don't agree that any school should completely omit one topic in favor of another...I mean doesn't that defeat the purpose of school? You're there to learn, whether it matches your personal beliefs or goes against it.

Let's be fair here. Sure, we can agree that science has come up with scientific approaches to how homo sapiens arrived. But creationism (the modern type) says that there must be some kind of "life force" that allowed things to occur. Can we say with certainty this life force exists? No. Does it mean it doesn't exist? No.

I'm pretty sure there exists the subbest of the subbest subatomic particles that science has not been able to detect. What we are able to perceive with our own limited 5 senses and limited technological apparatus is not the be all-end all. Both priests and scientists can get too arrogant.

If a private Christian school says "we would like to be fair and teach the biggest two beliefs that exist in our society (Creationism and Evolution) and you make your own personal choices with the knowledge given to you" I think it's brilliant.

I mean, Creationism isn't coming from some underground, LSD-induced cult. It's part of our historical upbringings in multitude of societies. To consciously make a college student ignorant of one field or another because you feel is "stupid" is selfish and ignorant in it of itself.

***this is my opinion on college, not medical school.
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Evolution isn't a belief, it's substantiated by evidence and it is the best model we have to date; Creationism, however, is basically a fairy tale considering the fact it has no evidence to support it. I don't mind religion being taught, but teach it in a religion course, not a science course.

"Can we say with certainty this life force exists? No. Does it mean it doesn't exist? No."
- The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim and you cannot disprove a negative; therefore this argument is fallacious and carries no weight whatsoever.

I honestly don't care if schools teach students about religion, creationism, or santa claus as long as it's not included in science courses where fact and logic is king.
 
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CooIBreeze said:
Evolution isn't a belief, it's substantiated by evidence and it is the best model we have to date; Creationism, however, is basically a fairy tale considering the fact it has no evidence to support it. I don't mind religion being taught, but teach it in a religion course, not a science course.

"Can we say with certainty this life force exists? No. Does it mean it doesn't exist? No."
- The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim and you cannot disprove a negative; therefore this argument is fallacious and carries no weight whatsoever.

I honestly don't care if schools teach students about religion, creationism, or santa claus as long as it's not included in science courses where fact and logic is king.
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There are still large gaps of proof in evolution as the origin of man. Evolution of species existing? Absolutely proven. Man definitely came from an ape via evolution? Not so much. Then there is the fun fact that sciences own laws can't account for the origin of matter.

Religious theories will at least admit an inability to prove themselves beyond all doubt, but there are enough gaps in the other models that they should consider a similar stance...
 
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Here's a great question for you: Does your belief in evolution affect your performance as a medical doctor in any way?

Would going to Liberty University Medical School make you a bad doctor?
 
Another topic of discussion: Since the Bible is false or "fairy tale", how did it come to be? A bunch of people in the past grouped together to write an almost 2,000-page fictional story?
 
RockBanditPhil said:
Another topic of discussion: Since the Bible is false or "fairy tale", how did it come to be? A bunch of people in the past grouped together to write an almost 2,000-page fictional story?
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Uhhh do you not know biblical history?? The Bible is an extremely complex compilation of narratives from many different authors over hundreds of years that was canonized officially in the counsel of nicessa in around 300 CE
 
PS4, just stop being such a closet christian and come out already. Nobody is buying your fake agnosticism. Evolution is a fact. Your comment to the contrary simply serves to show you don't have an understanding of it. Also, bible with secret universe truths? Big Bang = to Spaghetti Monster? LOL. If anyone tries to take you seriously from this point on, it is a futile exercise.
 
RockBanditPhil said:
Here's a great question for you: Does your belief in evolution affect your performance as a medical doctor in any way?

Would going to Liberty University Medical School make you a bad doctor?
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It's not the belief in evolution that worries me, it's the fact that people accept things based on no evidence, and yes I believe that will affect the type of doctor you are. If you think creationism is a real thing, what is there to stop you from thinking vaccines give children autism, or black salves cure cancer? I'm just trying to say that type of faulty logic is dangerous when people are putting their lives in your hands.
 
Until someone can prove how the first life on earth came about there will be disagreement. While I fully believe in evolution it is hard for me to comprehend life starting with self replicating single molecule and that all organisms on earth are descended from a single ancestor. Unfortunately we may never know what exactly happened.
 
PS4 said:
You fail to offend me. I'm proud not to be an extremist to either side. I'm not a Christian. I do not believe Jesus had any special powers, and there is still doubts that he even existed to begin with.

Evolution is NOT a fact. It is accepted widely by the scientific community. Don't worry, I do believe evolution does exist, as the indirect evidence scientists have gathered has convinced me sufficiently.

I never said anything about Bible having secret universe truths. If you took my Big Bang and Spaghetti Monster sarcasm seriously, then you need to get your brain cells checked out.

You're just ticked off that someone like me has an open mind about **** nobody really knows. NO ONE, not scientists or priests can prove with concrete evidence the origin of life. I don't understand how my previous sentence is not common sense.

You sound like you could use some wine and maybe an advil? I got some to spare.
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For some reason I was reminded of this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xafqYFf-r0
 
PS4 said:
You fail to offend me. I'm proud not to be an extremist to either side. I'm not a Christian. I do not believe Jesus had any special powers, and there is still doubts that he even existed to begin with.

Evolution is NOT a fact. It is accepted widely by the scientific community. Don't worry, I do believe evolution does exist, as the indirect evidence scientists have gathered has convinced me sufficiently.

I never said anything about Bible having secret universe truths. If you took my Big Bang and Spaghetti Monster sarcasm seriously, then you need to get your brain cells checked out.

You're just ticked off that someone like me has an open mind about **** nobody really knows. NO ONE, not scientists or priests can prove with concrete evidence the origin of life. I don't understand how my previous sentence is not common sense.

You sound like you could use some wine and maybe an advil? I got some to spare.
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I don't get your argument. Evolution is a scientific fact, with as much certainty as the Earth is round. There's no middle ground between reality and fiction. My major gripe is the fact that this school treats intelligent design with as much credibility as scientific evidence, as attested to by our LU alumni here. Evolution makes no claim about the origin of life, only the diversity of life as we see it today.

Please define what your would consider concrete evidence to be, because our entire knowledge of the universe can only be obtained through empirical, observable evidence. Anything else is based on faith and superstitious belief.
 
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