Marijuana

BU Medical Sciences
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mmmmd said:
note the bad guys that I first thought of were people like the ones with all the ecstasy and weapons who lead to daniel chong's arrest, while the bad guys referred to in the post i was quoting were medical institution administrators.
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Ohhhhh. Well, they're both out to get people. 😛
 
Danbo1957 said:
Using illegal drugs makes you a criminal. Nothing I enjoy more than ensuring that users never become doctors.

At my medical school we let every applicant know that drug use will not be tolerated and that each student will be drug tested at random over the four years of attendence. Expulsion from school is the result from a positive test. At orientation we show photos of students that were expuled from previous years. Every year 1 or 2 gets caught... once we had a MS4 that used MJ on an away rotation-- gone. 👍
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Your equivocations are matched only by your despicability; your implication that even casual recreational users of marijuana are merely "criminals" in any sense except the strict legal sense is both intellectually dishonest and below the level of critical thinking that an attending physician should possess.

Furthermore, the glee with which you talk about expelling medical students is repulsive. You are well aware that you ruined these peoples' lives when you push for this and yet you do it anyway out of some sense of happiness you derive from it. Your strict adherence to the letter of the law without any regard to the spirit of the law or the implications of such is intellectually immature and quite frankly, dangerous. Had you been born in a different place and time under alternative ruling powers, you may well have been another Dr. Mengele.

Science has well established that alcohol is more dangerous and deadly than marijuana. Why should doctors who occasionally smoke marijuana off-duty be penalized while doctors who occasionally consume alcohol off-duty are not? If the reason is the relative dangers of marijuana and alcohol, then shouldn't alcohol be banned as well given that it's more dangerous? Would you support all doctors being required to abstain fully from alcohol? If your issue is purely a legal one, then why do you think it is appropriate for alcohol to be legal and marijuana not?
 
sirenomelia said:
why do you assume most people willing to break the law to continue their habit are never going to have it affect their performance at work or be impaired at work at some point? Its not some innocuous hobby like backgammon. Further, you're going to get drug tested and whether or not you did pot only at home or around the clock you're going to test positive for cannibis. How is anyone else supposed to know you never used it at work? Then there is a personal moral standard that doctors should be above such behavior IMO. Would you tell your patients or want them seeing you smoking dope and acting like a fool out and about? You going to tell your colleagues and expect them to respect you and refer patients? I wouldnt. Just if i knew someone had a drinking problem, or was abusing prescription narcs or whatever outside of work. I would just assume they lacked judgement and/or were impaired and dangerous.
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You are never allowed to drink a drop of alcohol in your life again, because you said "drinking problem". Alcohol is NOT illegal and there is no such thing as an illegal alcohol problem. A drinking problem should be one drop of alcohol by your definition. I wouldn't want to see my doctor, obviously, having even a cocktail or getting drunk on New Years Eve: each gram of alcohol kills cells. Oh yeah, obviously I don't want to see my doctor popping pills either--if you're not healthy, how the **** can you tell me to be healthy?

I guarantee you, you're the type of doctor that freely prescribed ephedrine for weight loss, and stopped when it was taken off the market because "now it's bad".
 
Please tell us about your marijuana overdose cases.
 
theseeker4 said:
Probably a good portion of it does, but your comment "anyone who smokes pot is funding the Mexican drug war" is a little short-sighted and shrill. And 🙄 at Mexican drug lords owning/controlling each and every pot-house in the US.
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By purchasing weed, you are adding to a lucrative market that attracts criminal organizations whether you directly buy from them or not.

And to you (and all the other posters) who dismiss this post. You all really underestimate the stretch of drug cartels. All that they have their hands in would surprise you. In fact, Mexican cartels have started to grow higher quality weed inside the US since people started buying higher quality from these "home-grown" pot dealers you guys referenced. You really don't know where your weed is coming from.

But anyway, I'm not trying to be too judgemental about it. I just care more about drug violence (both in Mexico and in inner-cities in the US) than I care about someone's "right" to smoke weed. So I do favor legalization, and I don't really care if someone smokes or not.
.
Carry on. 👍
 
Barcu said:
By purchasing weed, you are adding to a lucrative market that attracts criminal organizations whether you directly buy from them or not.

And to you (and all the other posters) who dismiss this post. You all really underestimate the stretch of drug cartels. All that they have their hands in would surprise you. In fact, Mexican cartels have started to grow higher quality weed inside the US since people started buying higher quality from these "home-grown" pot dealers you guys referenced. You really don't know where your weed is coming from.

But anyway, I'm not trying to be too judgemental about it. I just care more about drug violence (both in Mexico and in inner-cities in the US) than I care about someone's "right" to smoke weed. So I do favor legalization, and I don't really care if someone smokes or not.
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Carry on. 👍
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Don't worry, I am not, personally, buying any illicit drug from anyone, nor do I use any. I do know that a good number of those who use pot (no clue on percentage, which isn't important) either grow their own, or get it from their buddy who grows his or her own. That is what makes simplistic statements like "if you smoke pot, you are funding the drug war in Mexico" demonstrably false for some percentage of those who choose to partake.
 
throwawayaccoun said:
What happens if you fail your schools drug test by testing positive for marijuana? You acceptance gets taken back? Does anyone know anyone who has smoked or does smoke in medical school? What about residency? What about later in their career? I haven't smoked in over half a year, but I was just wanting to find out what happens if you do fail. Also, I hope to get some honest answers about marijuana usage in the medical field. Don't forget, its easy to be anonymous on the internet.

😳
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My university health care system has a zero tolerance policy for drug and alcohol use. It applies to all levels of people that work there. One strike and you're out. Come to work with a blood alcohol level of 0.01 from partying until 4am or getting called in urgently as 2nd call from your dinner where you had a glass of wine and you're out. The end. The policy is crystal clear and you sign it on arrival.
I wish they did random drug tests like in the military. The last thing you want to worry about is an impaired provider. If I was a patient I would be comforted knowing this policy is in place.
 
Morsetlis said:
Please tell us about your marijuana overdose cases.
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made me think of the classic joke:

a drunk driver runs a red light. a stoned driver waits for the stop sign to turn green 😛

Sent from my LS670 using Tapatalk
 
All joking, dumb comments (there's too many to count on this thread) and insults aside, what you (most of you) dont grasp, or dont want to accept is that medicine is different than other careers. You're not a forklift driver who clocks in, clocks out and then goes on your way. You are a doctor while you are practicing, you are a doctor in the grocery store, at the ballfied with your kid, all the time. The public expects, and our profession demands the highest personal, ethical, moral character of the people allowed into it. You will see patients, nurses, other people out all the time that will judge your personal behavior and you damage your (and all doctors) credibility when you are involved in misconduct- whether at work or not. I have known people who I knew snorted coke at parties like once a month and they were under control and it didnt affect them. Some people can handle it. What if a doctor has a hobby with dogfighting out of work? what if someone is involved with the KKK on their own personal time? So i guess you're ok with that too. Comparing drugs to a traffic offense- stupid. Saying every pot smoker is a can't miss genious- get real. 99% of pot smokers are people riddled with personal problems. If anything, if someone special has this habit they are less than what they could be if they quit. I dont care what you state you believe or want to think, MJ use over time has been proven to cause detrimental cognitive effects. This problem will sort itself out. Some jackass pot smoker will come in for his shift in the ED stoned and a wrongful death suit from negligence will trigger random drug screening for all of us so this whole point will be moot.
 
sirenomelia said:
All joking, dumb comments (there's too many to count on this thread) and insults aside, what you (most of you) dont grasp, or dont want to accept is that medicine is different than other careers. You're not a forklift driver who clocks in, clocks out and then goes on your way. You are a doctor while you are practicing, you are a doctor in the grocery store, at the ballfied with your kid, all the time. The public expects, and our profession demands the highest personal, ethical, moral character of the people allowed into it. You will see patients, nurses, other people out all the time that will judge your personal behavior and you damage your (and all doctors) credibility when you are involved in misconduct- whether at work or not. I have known people who I knew snorted coke at parties like once a month and they were under control and it didnt affect them. Some people can handle it. What if a doctor has a hobby with dogfighting out of work? what if someone is involved with the KKK on their own personal time? So i guess you're ok with that too. Comparing drugs to a traffic offense- stupid. Saying every pot smoker is a can't miss genious- get real. 99% of pot smokers are people riddled with personal problems. If anything, if someone special has this habit they are less than what they could be if they quit. I dont care what you state you believe or want to think, MJ use over time has been proven to cause detrimental cognitive effects. This problem will sort itself out. Some jackass pot smoker will come in for his shift in the ED stoned and a wrongful death suit from negligence will trigger random drug screening for all of us so this whole point will be moot.
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so weed is as bad as being a member of the KKK and dogfighting? Good to know haha
 
sirenomelia said:
All joking, dumb comments (there's too many to count on this thread) and insults aside, what you (most of you) dont grasp, or dont want to accept is that medicine is different than other careers. You're not a forklift driver who clocks in, clocks out and then goes on your way. You are a doctor while you are practicing, you are a doctor in the grocery store, at the ballfied with your kid, all the time. The public expects, and our profession demands the highest personal, ethical, moral character of the people allowed into it. You will see patients, nurses, other people out all the time that will judge your personal behavior and you damage your (and all doctors) credibility when you are involved in misconduct- whether at work or not. I have known people who I knew snorted coke at parties like once a month and they were under control and it didnt affect them. Some people can handle it. What if a doctor has a hobby with dogfighting out of work? what if someone is involved with the KKK on their own personal time? So i guess you're ok with that too. Comparing drugs to a traffic offense- stupid. Saying every pot smoker is a can't miss genious- get real. 99% of pot smokers are people riddled with personal problems. If anything, if someone special has this habit they are less than what they could be if they quit. I dont care what you state you believe or want to think, MJ use over time has been proven to cause detrimental cognitive effects. This problem will sort itself out. Some jackass pot smoker will come in for his shift in the ED stoned and a wrongful death suit from negligence will trigger random drug screening for all of us so this whole point will be moot.
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Did you run this through your I-don't-want-to-sound-like-a-crazy-person editor first? Might be a good idea next time. That you view marijuana use as equal to KKK membership says VOLUMES about who you are and that your priorities are far skewed from anything reasonable.

Not a soul has said anything about smoking on the job, so I think we can pretty much dismiss that one outright.

Do you attack cigarette smokers with this much vehemence? If I started a thread about smoking a pack a day, would you attack me this vigorously? Because 99% of cigarette smokers are people riddled with medical problems. If anything, if someone special has this habit they are less than what they could be if they quit. I dont care what you state you believe or want to think, cigarette use over time has been proven to cause detrimental pulmonary effects.

Of course, normal rules of trolling apply and you probably are just trying to start fights.
 
sirenomelia said:
Some jackass pot smoker will come in for his shift in the ED stoned and a wrongful death suit from negligence will trigger random drug screening for all of us so this whole point will be moot.
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You do realize there is a broad line between casually using marijuana and being a stoner, just as there is a broad line between casually drinking and being an alcoholic...right?
 
circulus vitios said:
You do realize there is a broad line between casually using marijuana and being a stoner, just as there is a broad line between casually drinking and being an alcoholic...right?
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You do realize there is a broad line between casually using cocaine, meth, X, whatever and being a crackhead, speed junkie, etc just as there is a broad line between casually drinking and being an alcoholic...right? Where is that line and who draws it? Why are you judging stoners, man? If marijuanna is safe, benign and fun why are you judging people who use it more than others. Why is it wrong hypocrite? Why are you so judgemental against stoners? Who are you to tell a 3.99 46-V MCAT doctor who will save the earth from all diseases that he cant smoke a safe fun thing whenever he wants?
 
sirenomelia said:
You do realize there is a broad line between casually using cocaine, meth, X, whatever and being a crackhead, speed junkie, etc just as there is a broad line between casually drinking and being an alcoholic...right? Where is that line and who draws it? Why are you judging stoners, man? If marijuanna is safe, benign and fun why are you judging people who use it more than others. Why is it wrong hypocrite? Why are you so judgemental against stoners? Who are you to tell a 3.99 46-V MCAT doctor who will save the earth from all diseases that he cant smoke a safe fun thing whenever he wants?
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I actually was 4.1 and 105-Z.
 
sirenomelia said:
All joking, dumb comments (there's too many to count on this thread) and insults aside, what you (most of you) dont grasp, or dont want to accept is that medicine is different than other careers. You're not a forklift driver who clocks in, clocks out and then goes on your way. You are a doctor while you are practicing, you are a doctor in the grocery store, at the ballfied with your kid, all the time. The public expects, and our profession demands the highest personal, ethical, moral character of the people allowed into it. You will see patients, nurses, other people out all the time that will judge your personal behavior and you damage your (and all doctors) credibility when you are involved in misconduct- whether at work or not. I have known people who I knew snorted coke at parties like once a month and they were under control and it didnt affect them. Some people can handle it. What if a doctor has a hobby with dogfighting out of work? what if someone is involved with the KKK on their own personal time? So i guess you're ok with that too. Comparing drugs to a traffic offense- stupid. Saying every pot smoker is a can't miss genious- get real. 99% of pot smokers are people riddled with personal problems. If anything, if someone special has this habit they are less than what they could be if they quit. I dont care what you state you believe or want to think, MJ use over time has been proven to cause detrimental cognitive effects. This problem will sort itself out. Some jackass pot smoker will come in for his shift in the ED stoned and a wrongful death suit from negligence will trigger random drug screening for all of us so this whole point will be moot.
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Do you have any factual evidence for anything you say? Or is it all speculation/anecdotal evidence/opinion? In 4 pages of going back and forth about this topic, most if not all on the pro-MJ side have come to terms with this...

1) Smoking pot is absolutely not worth risking your job as a doctor (ie in terms of random drug testing etc)
2) It is equally as stupid to come in stoned as it would be to come in drunk
3) The 2 attendings posting in this thread sound like they're living in the 1950's with reefer madness and all the propaganda that went along with it
4) Medical students,residents, attendings etc smoke pot on their own free time without it impairing their ability to study, care for patients etc.
5) Not everyone who smokes pot is a stoner
6) The legality of an action says nothing about the morality of it
 
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sirenomelia said:
You do realize there is a broad line between casually using cocaine, meth, X, whatever and being a crackhead, speed junkie, etc just as there is a broad line between casually drinking and being an alcoholic...right? Where is that line and who draws it? Why are you judging stoners, man? If marijuanna is safe, benign and fun why are you judging people who use it more than others. Why is it wrong hypocrite? Why are you so judgemental against stoners? Who are you to tell a 3.99 46-V MCAT doctor who will save the earth from all diseases that he cant smoke a safe fun thing whenever he wants?
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You give the example of a pot smoker showing up to work while high. I think there's a broad and discernable difference between a doctor who smokes a joint when he's off-call/off-work versus a doctor who sparks up before strolling into the hospital.

I'm not judging physicians for using drugs. I don't care about the health consequences as long as they don't negatively impact physician performance beyond comparatively acceptable levels of dysfunction (caffeine use, sleep deprivation, distraction as a result of personal problems, etc.) I'm judging physicians for using drugs while they're 'on the clock.' You apparently can't make this distinction.
 
I think we all need to end this discussion and do some blow. Who's wimme?
 
I'm gonna go the dog fighting route
 
circulus vitios said:
You give the example of a pot smoker showing up to work while high. I think there's a broad and discernable difference between a doctor who smokes a joint when he's off-call/off-work versus a doctor who sparks up before strolling into the hospital.

I'm not judging physicians for using drugs. I don't care about the health consequences as long as they don't negatively impact physician performance beyond comparatively acceptable levels of dysfunction (caffeine use, sleep deprivation, distraction as a result of personal problems, etc.) I'm judging physicians for using drugs while they're 'on the clock.' You apparently can't make this distinction.
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First, as I painstakingly pointed out, your behavior outside of work in this profession counts. whether you agree or like it or not. It does. As of today, this drug is illegal. Second, forgive my ignorance for lack of personal experience not using the stuff, but getting high is not like an on/off switch where one minute you're stoned, and at some discreet defined moment all of a sudden you are completely lucid. The effects vary person to person, one time from the next, the substance itself differs in potency as it comes from who knows where, and there is no way to know if there is/is not something else in it/laced. Not everyone will 'come down' exactly the same in some absolute predictable fashion to be 100% sure they will be 'good to go' after they light up. Third- yes this thread is going no where and needs to end/
 
throwawayaccoun said:
What happens if you fail your schools drug test by testing positive for marijuana? You acceptance gets taken back? Does anyone know anyone who has smoked or does smoke in medical school? What about residency? What about later in their career? I haven't smoked in over half a year, but I was just wanting to find out what happens if you do fail. Also, I hope to get some honest answers about marijuana usage in the medical field. Don't forget, its easy to be anonymous on the internet.

😳
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Here's a legal perspective for you, OP, from someone with a criminal law background:

I am a pre-med, but yes, I have known medical students who have smoked through medical school. I haven't known anyone who has smoked during residency. I do know attendings that smoke, but they are in private practice and so they are not subject to drug tests. FYI, OP, your marijuana use can still show up on a drug test 6months post-last use if they are using a hair test. If it's a urine or other type of test, then you are fine.

Full disclosure: I used marijuana in undergrad, as I expect most applicants and matriculants did. I did not use it in grad school, but I doubt that any medical schools will hold past use against you, except maybe Loma Linda. They understand that young people experiment with drugs, mostly marijuana. I haven't used it in 5 years.

If you fail a drug test ordered by your medical school before matriculation, I expect you've just blown your chances at medical school. If you fail a drug test during medical school, I'm not sure about the dismissal policy, but it's going in your file either way, and will impact your shots at some residencies. You can probably forget about super competitive specialties if something like that happened, because they have oodles of applicants to choose from, and any mark against you is just an excuse for them to discard your file. If you fail a drug test during residency, I imagine you'd get dismissed. Post-residency, when you're an attending, practice environment will depend on whether you are subject to drug tests. Hospitals can drug test you at any time, especially government hospitals like the VA. Military hospitals will obviously piss test you. If you're in private practice and never go to the hospital (you're a private practice psychiatrist, for example), I'm sure you can get away with smoking it. Here's the important question though, OP. Is it worth it to you? Even if you're that shrink in private practice, what if you're coming home from your dealer with marijuana and you're pulled over by the cops? That's getting reported to your state medical board which will probably suspend you and/or force you into treatment. What if you screw up during surgery and have an "adverse patient outcome"? What if they drug test you afterward and find marijuana in your system? You'd better say goodbye to your money.

The best advice I can give you is that if you have a problem with drugs and/or alcohol, to get treatment for it NOW. If you voluntarily enter drug treatment/counseling at ANY time during medical school, residency or post-residency, and it was not the result of a positive drug test or criminal matter, you can get through this without these headaches that I'm talking about. I've seen posts on here about marijuana before and how safe it is compared to alcohol. I've written papers about the failures of our war on drugs for numerous undergraduate classes, and I've discussed these issues with politicians in an attempt to get state marijuana laws reformed. Marijuana is 100 times safer than alcohol, and much safer than tobacco (especially when eaten or vaporized), but that is really irrelevant, okay? The only thing that matters is that it is illegal under federal law, and until that changes, you're taking massive risks by continuing to use an illegal drug. The risks of getting busted just aren't worth it. You can go back to using it after you retire from medicine and surrender your license. It will probably be legal in all 50 states by that point anyway.
 
DanGee777 said:
The best advice I can give you is that if you have a problem with drugs and/or alcohol, to get treatment for it NOW. If you voluntarily enter drug treatment/counseling at ANY time during medical school, residency or post-residency, and it was not the result of a positive drug test or criminal matter, you can get through this without these headaches that I'm talking about.
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Definitely the most interesting part of your post, and a good piece of advice for all of those with drug or alcohol issues.
 
circulus vitios said:
You do realize there is a broad line between casually using marijuana and being a stoner, just as there is a broad line between casually drinking and being an alcoholic...right?
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Circulus vitios,

Because alcohol is legal and the other drugs you mentioned are illegal. Unless you're a cancer, AIDS, or glaucoma patient (along with a few other serious ailments), marijuana doesn't really serve a therapeutic purpose that would satisfy most people in the medical community. And if you do have one of those ailments, it's unlikely (although not impossible) that you're a medical student or practicing physician.

That's why you draw the broad line between legal (alcohol, tobacco) and illegal (all other) drugs. Medical personnel that use tobacco can be refused employment despite the fact that tobacco is a legal drug (some hospitals are doing this to save on health care costs). Medical personnel that drink to excess and are found out will likely lose their jobs. People that eat too much, don't exercise enough and have a high BMI as a result, can be denied employment at one hospital in Texas, according to a post on here. Those using illegal drugs don't have the excuse that casual drinkers have to fall back on, which is that their use was "reasonable." If a drug is illegal, then use of it is per se unreasonable. Read my above post if you want an education. Most people here aren't judging you and they aren't being hypocrites. I'm sure that most pre-meds agree that marijuana is a relatively harmless drug (compared to alcohol) when used responsibly. The medical literature proves it. Most pre-meds are young people, and because approximately 70% of young people are in favor of legalizing marijuana, we can expect that a healthy majority of pre-meds also favor the legalization of marijuana. I'm not sure if there's ever been a poll done of practicing physicians to gauge their attitudes of marijuana, though I think it would largely mirror the general population, with older physicians more opposed and younger physicians more supportive of the idea. That is all irrelevant, however. Most people's opinions about marijuana are shaped by the laws surrounding it, however unfair or arbitrary those laws may be. The vast majority of patients would not want to be treated by a doctor who uses marijuana, just like the vast majority of patients would not want to be treated by a doctor who drinks to excess. If you want to be able to use marijuana responsibly as a future physician, then do the following:

1) Amass a lot of money or make friends with those that have a lot of money. I'd say that 2 or 300 million would probably be enough.
2) Use some of the money to start a SuperPac with a catchy name (I suggest BudPac, GreenPac or GanjaPac) in order to run advertisements supporting the legalization of marijuana.
3) Use some of the money to donate to Rock the Vote and other organizations that mobilize the youth vote.
4) Use some of the money to lobby U.S. representatives and senators.
5) Use some of it to lobby state representatives and senators in particular states. I recommend focusing on states in which advertising is really cheap as well, so you can kill two birds with one stone (or stoner).

If the following sounds too complicated and unattainable, then just wait 18 years (until 2030 or so) when all of the World War II generation have moved on to a better place and are no longer voting, and when generation X (those born between 1966 and 1980) and generation Y (1981-1999) are in power. Generation Z (those born in 2000 or later) will be able to vote by this time as well. These folks will take care of repealing the marijuana laws for you. Depending on when you enter medical school, you might be able to start legally smoking pot in residency on your off days.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_and_Contras_cocaine_trafficking_in_the_US

Legal and illegal are just words. Actions > words. If you get caught using marijuana and it ruins your medical career, then you were ignorant and deserve it. Don't be ignorant. If you're a physician, don't do anything that will negatively affect the care you deliver. Sounds obvious, right? But I imagine it can be less trivial on a case-by-case basis... which is why I hope doctors recognize that for both their patients and themselves, as DanGee777 said: if you need help, get help.

sirenomelia, I do not forgive your ignorance. Your answer to the OP was wrong (though it provoked an interesting discussion, so thanks for that I guess). whoknows2012 summed up the "actual" answer to the OP's question quite well I think (though I cannot claim to know for sure).
 
DanGee777 said:
Because alcohol is legal and the other drugs you mentioned are illegal. Unless you're a cancer, AIDS, or glaucoma patient (along with a few other serious ailments), marijuana doesn't really serve a therapeutic purpose that would satisfy most people in the medical community. And if you do have one of those ailments, it's unlikely (although not impossible) that you're a medical student or practicing physician.
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You bring up a point that I haven't seen discussed in this thread. The fact that marijuana has some efficacy for a particular subset of medical conditions. Not all pain can be treated with opiate derivative medications and in some cases THC is a viable alternative for these patients. Does THC have side effects? Certainly. Is there a single pharmaceutical that does not have a profile of side effects? I would wager that there is not a single one. The fatality risk for acetaminophen is probably higher than THC.

However, there is a huge stigma attached to marijuana that cannot seem to be shaken. It seems to me that this thread hasn't really differentiated marijuana use from marijuana abuse.
 
DanGee777 said:
FYI, OP, your marijuana use can still show up on a drug test 6months post-last use if they are using a hair test.
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Sorry to nitpick, but while a hair test has the ability to pick up use as far as 6 months in the past, legally, you're only allowed to be tested within a range of 3 months. Is that not true? I don't have a great source on that, just that many of my friends who were going to get drug tested stopped for 90 days not because that was the best the test could do, but because that was the longest it was allowed to do.
 
alerk323 said:
Sorry to nitpick, but while a hair test has the ability to pick up use as far as 6 months in the past, legally, you're only allowed to be tested within a range of 3 months. Is that not true? I don't have a great source on that, just that many of my friends who were going to get drug tested stopped for 90 days not because that was the best the test could do, but because that was the longest it was allowed to do.
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In all honesty, I'm not quite sure either, but hospitals really have no reason to use a hair test, and while I'm no expert in drug testing, the 30 or so hospitals I'm familiar with the in greater NYC metro area (connecticut, NJ, westchester, LI) the ones that do drug test, use urine. It is slightly more expensive (125 vs 75 maybe? don't quote me on that) and provides little more information about what the person is doing currently. My guess is that is really isn't worth it unless you're working for the military or the gov't (FBI, CIA, etc)
 
sirenomelia said:
All joking, dumb comments (there's too many to count on this thread) and insults aside, what you (most of you) dont grasp, or dont want to accept is that medicine is different than other careers. You're not a forklift driver who clocks in, clocks out and then goes on your way. You are a doctor while you are practicing, you are a doctor in the grocery store, at the ballfied with your kid, all the time. The public expects, and our profession demands the highest personal, ethical, moral character of the people allowed into it. You will see patients, nurses, other people out all the time that will judge your personal behavior and you damage your (and all doctors) credibility when you are involved in misconduct- whether at work or not. I have known people who I knew snorted coke at parties like once a month and they were under control and it didnt affect them. Some people can handle it. What if a doctor has a hobby with dogfighting out of work? what if someone is involved with the KKK on their own personal time? So i guess you're ok with that too. Comparing drugs to a traffic offense- stupid. Saying every pot smoker is a can't miss genious- get real. 99% of pot smokers are people riddled with personal problems. If anything, if someone special has this habit they are less than what they could be if they quit. I dont care what you state you believe or want to think, MJ use over time has been proven to cause detrimental cognitive effects. This problem will sort itself out. Some jackass pot smoker will come in for his shift in the ED stoned and a wrongful death suit from negligence will trigger random drug screening for all of us so this whole point will be moot.
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I have an issue with the bolded. You're talking about other careers out of your behind. You have no idea what is and is not involved in being a fork lift operator and being under influence in that job could be much more dangerous than being a doctor under influence. Same can easily be said about cab driver. Your arrogance and condescending tone is really showing here. Also, doctors are as much of role models as any other profession where you get some responsibilities over other people. Until you actually have any concrete evidence to show that doing "bad" things at your own time as doctor is worse than doing similar things as a bus driver, an accountant, or a personal trainer, you shouldn't bring it up. Being doctor is a job and it DOES NOT place you in special holier-than-thou category.
 
DavetheMD said:
You bring up a point that I haven't seen discussed in this thread. The fact that marijuana has some efficacy for a particular subset of medical conditions. Not all pain can be treated with opiate derivative medications and in some cases THC is a viable alternative for these patients. Does THC have side effects? Certainly. Is there a single pharmaceutical that does not have a profile of side effects? I would wager that there is not a single one. The fatality risk for acetaminophen is probably higher than THC.

However, there is a huge stigma attached to marijuana that cannot seem to be shaken. It seems to me that this thread hasn't really differentiated marijuana use from marijuana abuse.
Click to expand...

Dave,

As I mentioned previously, the stigma against marijuana is coming from the over 50 age demographic, generally speaking, with intense opposition among the 65+ crowd. The demographic split on marijuana legalization is remarkably similar to the demographic split vis a vis gay marriage, which has seen a groundswell of support in recent years. Demographic trends will change public policy on this issue in a matter of decades.

I'm not a physician, and I don't have much scientific training at all, but I do believe that marijuana is effective for certain medical ailments, especially nausea and pain. Obviously, many people disagree with that notion, but many cancer patients testify that marijuana is what makes them able to eat during chemo. Of course the fatality risk for acetaminophen is higher than it is for THC. The LD50 (median lethal dose) is approximately 1/3rd of your body weight, from what I've read. So a 150 pound man could possibly die if he used 50 pounds in one day. Obviously, this is impossible. Some rodents have died from marijuana use due to massive CNS disruption, but they've also tested it on monkeys, and no monkey has ever died from it.

The dose required for death is impossible for any human to consume, but this is obviously different than acetaminophen. Liver damage can occur at more than 15,000 mg (30 extra strength Tylenols) consumed, and perhaps the level is lower. 20,000 mg (40 extra strength Tylenols) consumed and you're looking at possible/probable death. Alcohol and certain prescription drugs obviously have much lower LD50s as well. College students have died after consuming 20 shots of liquor in half an hour or an hour. Lower levels of alcohol in the blood can cause death when combined with certain controlled substances (benzodiazepenes, valium, etc.) 99% of deaths in which THC is involved are probably the result of behavior while THC is in the system: jumping off a building, getting in a car accident, drowning, etc.

Again, the stigma attached to marijuana is because of the fact that it is illegal. We all know that public perceptions can help shape public policy. More people are in favor of gay marriage, therefore more legislators are voting in favor of gay marriage than would have ever considered it 20 years ago. The war on drugs is obviously a different situation, because you have profit motives at work as well (both for law enforcement as well as for drug cartels), but the fact is this: marijuana is illegal because Americans are not desperate to change the marijuana laws. While polls show that ~50% of Americans favor legalization and ~50% are opposed, prop 19 failed in California in 2010, because young people (who heavily favor legalization) did not turn out to vote, while old people did (as they always do).

So we know that public perceptions can help shape public policy. Conversely, public policy can help shape public perceptions. As I mentioned in a previous post, young Americans know that the war on drugs is a failure, especially when talking about marijuana. It is relatively easy to make arguments for keeping drugs like meth and heroin illegal (although I'd argue that this still does more damage than good, and that we should consider sell meth over the counter to any adult who wants it to eliminate the risk of innocent people in apartment buildings being blown up by their meth cook neighbors. In order to receive the meth, however, I would make the addicts consume it in a designated space in a government building, and they could not leave the building until they were sober. The costs for this would be astronomical, however), given that the relative harm done by these drugs is astronomical. It is difficult to make a cogent argument for keeping marijuana illegal, because the benefits of the war on marijuana are far outweighed by the social costs. There are millions of Americans with marijuana possession records that find it more difficult to get jobs. No one with a drug conviction, even for possessing a marijuana joint, is eligible for federal aid. For a lot of folks with that on their record, going to college to improve themselves is out.

So what do they do? They join gangs and become drug dealers, sometimes selling harder drugs as well as marijuana, and then they get hit with stiff prison sentences. Maybe the cops bust the dealer's boss and the honcho points the finger at the street-level guy in return for leniency. Once these folks get out of prison, there's no way they're getting even a halfway-decent job with their felony conviction, and even McDonald's probably won't hire someone with a felony conviction. In this economy, forget about getting any job with a felony conviction. So they go back to the drug life again, selling drugs, maybe they start carrying a gun, and they end up dead. Americans think felony drug convictions (even marijuana convictions without violence) are bad because the law says they are bad. When younger Americans get into power in the next couple of decades, public perceptions will have changed, and that will guide public policy. law was changed, and marijuana was legal, then it could be sold in a system similar to that available in California and Colorado for medical marijuana patients. Private dispensaries could dispense it to anyone over the age of 18, and it could be taxed and regulated like tobacco and alcohol. Penalties would still be harsh for driving under the influence of it, and should probably be made harsher.
 
alerk323 said:
Sorry to nitpick, but while a hair test has the ability to pick up use as far as 6 months in the past, legally, you're only allowed to be tested within a range of 3 months. Is that not true? I don't have a great source on that, just that many of my friends who were going to get drug tested stopped for 90 days not because that was the best the test could do, but because that was the longest it was allowed to do.
Click to expand...

am i missing something or does the bolded statement not make any sense? for it to be true, it's already assuming the person being tested smokes weed. i have no experience with drug testing, but the test is just + or - right (meaning no indication of time elapsed)? so it's not like you can get tested, test positive, and then say "but i toked >90 days ago" :laugh:
 
whoknows2012 said:
1) Smoking pot is absolutely not worth risking your job as a doctor (ie in terms of random drug testing etc)
2) It is equally as stupid to come in stoned as it would be to come in drunk
3) The 2 attendings posting in this thread sound like they're living in the 1950's with reefer madness and all the propaganda that went along with it
4) Medical students,residents, attendings etc smoke pot on their own free time without it impairing their ability to study, care for patients etc.
5) Not everyone who smokes pot is a stoner
6) The legality of an action says nothing about the morality of it
Click to expand...

Can this just be the end of the thread now?
 
IlDestriero said:
My university health care system has a zero tolerance policy for drug and alcohol use. It applies to all levels of people that work there. One strike and you're out. Come to work with a blood alcohol level of 0.01 from partying until 4am or getting called in urgently as 2nd call from your dinner where you had a glass of wine and you're out. The end. The policy is crystal clear and you sign it on arrival.
I wish they did random drug tests like in the military. The last thing you want to worry about is an impaired provider. If I was a patient I would be comforted knowing this policy is in place.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a stupid policy, a BAC of .01 isn't going to do much.
 
Danbo1957 said:
You got that backwards champ, you are the one making the equivocations. We hear tirades like yours everyday in the ER and addiction clinics.

http://recoveryguy.hubpages.com/hub/about-Marijuana-Addiction
Click to expand...

Please point to my equivocation, as I'm fairly certain it does not exist.

Your point about marijuana users in addiction clinics and the ER is fallacious for two reasons: a) you imply that this is quite common, when it actually is not and b) you make a judgement about something based only on the worst-case scenario. Your logic is akin to arguing that cars are bad and no one should ever drive because people get injured and killed in car accidents.

What you actually need to argue for is that a sizeably large portion of marijuana users have very negative side-effects. Of course you cannot do this, as such an argument is impossible to make.

Barcu said:
By purchasing weed, you are adding to a lucrative market that attracts criminal organizations whether you directly buy from them or not.

And to you (and all the other posters) who dismiss this post. You all really underestimate the stretch of drug cartels. All that they have their hands in would surprise you. In fact, Mexican cartels have started to grow higher quality weed inside the US since people started buying higher quality from these "home-grown" pot dealers you guys referenced. You really don't know where your weed is coming from.

But anyway, I'm not trying to be too judgemental about it. I just care more about drug violence (both in Mexico and in inner-cities in the US) than I care about someone's "right" to smoke weed. So I do favor legalization, and I don't really care if someone smokes or not.
.
Carry on. 👍
Click to expand...

Assuming you are right for the sake of argument, I agree that funneling violence, oppression, and slavery is something we should avoid. The only reason that drug money fuels these things is due to its illegality; if it were made legal, instead of having gangs and cartels control the supply, you would find legitimate businesses filling that role.

Given that people are going to continue to use marijuana, wouldn't you rather have the production controlled by businesses like Marlboro and Camel rather than violent and oppressive gangs?

sirenomelia said:
All joking, dumb comments (there's too many to count on this thread) and insults aside, what you (most of you) dont grasp, or dont want to accept is that medicine is different than other careers. You're not a forklift driver who clocks in, clocks out and then goes on your way. You are a doctor while you are practicing, you are a doctor in the grocery store, at the ballfied with your kid, all the time. The public expects, and our profession demands the highest personal, ethical, moral character of the people allowed into it. You will see patients, nurses, other people out all the time that will judge your personal behavior and you damage your (and all doctors) credibility when you are involved in misconduct- whether at work or not. I have known people who I knew snorted coke at parties like once a month and they were under control and it didnt affect them. Some people can handle it. What if a doctor has a hobby with dogfighting out of work? what if someone is involved with the KKK on their own personal time? So i guess you're ok with that too. Comparing drugs to a traffic offense- stupid. Saying every pot smoker is a can't miss genious- get real. 99% of pot smokers are people riddled with personal problems. If anything, if someone special has this habit they are less than what they could be if they quit. I dont care what you state you believe or want to think, MJ use over time has been proven to cause detrimental cognitive effects. This problem will sort itself out. Some jackass pot smoker will come in for his shift in the ED stoned and a wrongful death suit from negligence will trigger random drug screening for all of us so this whole point will be moot.
Click to expand...

I see a number of things wrong with this post.

Even though doctors are held to a higher standard, you need to argue that the recreational use of marijuana is a severe enough breach of professional and moral etiquette that it warrants losing one's profession and livelihood. You have not come close to shouldering this burden of proof. The only attempt you make is that a doctor using marijuana will reflect poorly on all doctors. However, with society's changed views of marijuana and its inevitable legalization, this is not incontestably true.

You say it is stupid to compare drugs to a traffic offense, but this lumps together multiple unlike things. A heroin addict certainly has a bigger problem than the occasional speeder, but my contention (and many others in this topic) is that casual and recreational use of marijuana IS, in fact, not a big deal at all.

(My entire argument assumes only casual, recreational and non-work usage; I fully agree that any doctor inebriated by a substance while performing his duties deserves reprimand.)

Saying every pot smoker is a can't miss genious- get real. 99% of pot smokers are people riddled with personal problems.
Click to expand...

Nobody has said that every pot smoker is a "can't miss genious[sic]". That would be stupid and demonstrably false. Also, I'd like substantiation on the claim that 99% of marijuana users are people "riddled with personal problems". I would be willing to bet quite a bit of money that at least one percent of casual marijuana users are fairly normal people.

If anything, if someone special has this habit they are less than what they could be if they quit. I dont care what you state you believe or want to think, MJ use over time has been proven to cause detrimental cognitive effects.
Click to expand...

You do realize that some of the greatest music was created under the influence of drugs, correct? Also, some people find relief from social tension and anxiety through their use of drugs. Certainly people have been messed up through drugs, but to claim that no one has ever been better of because of them is preposterous. Look at Carl Sagan.

The negative cognitive effects you refer to are the subject of much scrutiny among those who study drugs. What we can safely say is that even if they do exist for habitual users, casual users are no affected by them. Since this is the only kind of use that I find to be acceptable, I am unconcerned with that statement.

sirenomelia said:
You do realize there is a broad line between casually using cocaine, meth, X, whatever and being a crackhead, speed junkie, etc just as there is a broad line between casually drinking and being an alcoholic...right? Where is that line and who draws it? Why are you judging stoners, man? If marijuanna is safe, benign and fun why are you judging people who use it more than others. Why is it wrong hypocrite? Why are you so judgemental against stoners? Who are you to tell a 3.99 46-V MCAT doctor who will save the earth from all diseases that he cant smoke a safe fun thing whenever he wants?
Click to expand...

Your post would have us believe that one is unable to tell day from night because one is not able to give a precise moment at which day ends and night begins. Even if we are unable to set necessary and sufficient conditions for determining what is and is not problematic, we can be relatively sure of some examples of each category. Drinking alcohol and using marijuana casually is fairly safe and benign. Drinking battery acid casually is not.

sirenomelia said:
First, as I painstakingly pointed out, your behavior outside of work in this profession counts. whether you agree or like it or not. It does. As of today, this drug is illegal.
Click to expand...

While I agree that doctors are held to a high standard of moral and ethical behavior, and that this standard would prevent doctors from committing many illegal activities, it is not clear that the casual use of marijuana falls into the category of professional misconduct or moral turpitude that should cost a physician his livelihood. Merely citing that this is illegal does not fulfill that burden as there is a host of other illegal activities that do not threaten a doctor's ability to practice.
 
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LegendAmI said:
Please point to my equivocation, as I'm fairly certain it does not exist...

...You do realize that some of the greatest music was created under the influence of drugs, correct? Also, some people find relief from social tension and anxiety through their use of drugs. Certainly people have been messed up through drugs, but to claim that no one has ever been better of because of them is preposterous. Look at Carl Sagan.
Click to expand...

http://www.recoveryconnection.org/rhode-island-drug-rehab/
 
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