OT: Thread of not-so-awesome

[nyanko]

It's a good thing I don't want children.

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[Whyevernot55]

It's a good thing I don't want children.

Ditto that! Except I want ponies. Which are just as bad, really.
/useless contribution to debate.

 

[goldielocks137]

They'll be smart and apply to med school?

LivestockDoc, You are really funny. I'm sure you're not trying to be because your hesitation about embarking on this 4 year track to debt are real. But I got a chuckle out of your pessimism. At the same time, though, I can commiserate with you. I definitely look at the numbers and think "why not human med?!" Unfortunately, I wasn't mature enough to start thinking about this until several months ago, after I'd already taken the GRE, accumulated thousands of hours of animal/vet experience, and solidified a personal statement about why I wanted to become a vet. Although we have not financially committed ourselves to this path yet, we have committed so much time and energy already. I do believe that the debt will be hard to deal with, but it will be possible. So good luck with your decisions, and please decide whatever is best for you. But I'd hate to see you get cold feet when you're so close

 

[Dsmoody23]

I'm a numbers cruncher and an excel spreadsheet junkie. According to my calculations I will graduate vet school with ~$275K in debt (including undergrad, interest, etc.), If I make $65K right off the bat and never get a raise I should be able to pay off my debt in less than 10 years. This is factoring in rent (in an expensive area), car payment (for a brand new realistic dream car), health and car insurance, food, utilities, pet costs, gasoline, putting away money in savings, and having a bit leftover for misc. I would still be living mightily comfortable.

10 years...to me, ain't so bad!

I think the debt load is a lot, but doable if you have the mindset to make it a positive outcome.

I like this guy.

"Doable if you have the mindset to make it a positive outcome."

And now back to our previously scheduled doom and gloom.

 

[HopefulAg]

According to my calculations I will graduate vet school with ~$275K in debt (including undergrad, interest, etc.), If I make $65K right off the bat and never get a raise I should be able to pay off my debt in less than 10 years. This is factoring in rent (in an expensive area), car payment (for a brand new realistic dream car), health and car insurance, food, utilities, pet costs, gasoline, putting away money in savings, and having a bit leftover for misc. I would still be living mightily comfortable.

Just curious as to what kind of monthly payment you came up with on your spreadsheet? On mine, for a $275,000 debt, I get $4,000 / mo. on the 10 year plan and $2,500 on the 25 year plan. With a 25% federal income tax rate (single, $65,000 income) that leaves about almost nothing (like, literally) to live on each month. On the 25 year plan that'd leave you about $1,500. In Texas, that's doable (even with rent, sales tax, insurance and so on) but I don't know about elsewhere.

Of course, my spreadsheet could also be wrong.

 

[Robdude]

Just curious as to what kind of monthly payment you came up with on your spreadsheet? On mine, for a $275,000 debt, I get $4,000 / mo. on the 10 year plan and $2,500 on the 25 year plan. With a 25% federal income tax rate (single, $65,000 income) that leaves about almost nothing (like, literally) to live on each month. On the 25 year plan that'd leave you about $1,500. In Texas, I think that's doable (even with rent, sales tax, insurance and so on) but I don't know about elsewhere.

Of course, my spreadsheet could also be wrong.

By my math.....assuming 4% on the student loans; a loan of 275k would be a monthly payment of $2,784.24 each month, for 10 years.

65k a year, after income tax/student loans, would (optimistically) work out to something like $1,415 per month to live off.

 

[dyachei]

By my math.....assuming 4% on the student loans; a loan of 275k would be a monthly payment of $2,784.24 each month, for 10 years.

65k a year, after income tax/student loans, would (optimistically) work out to something like $1,415 per month to live off.

Where are you getting 4%? The student loans I have are at 6.8% (all federal).

 

[GreennWhite]

Just curious as to what kind of monthly payment you came up with on your spreadsheet? On mine, for a $275,000 debt, I get $4,000 / mo. on the 10 year plan and $2,500 on the 25 year plan. With a 25% federal income tax rate (single, $65,000 income) that leaves about almost nothing (like, literally) to live on each month. On the 25 year plan that'd leave you about $1,500. In Texas, that's doable (even with rent, sales tax, insurance and so on) but I don't know about elsewhere.

Of course, my spreadsheet could also be wrong.

Damn income tax, this is what happens when you've never made over $6K a year - you forget about that.

Okay, so, to re-word:

If I make $65K right off the bat and get no raise, I should have my debt paid off in under 17 years.
More realistically, if I get only a $1500 raise every year, I should have my debt paid off in under 13 years. Still doable IMO.
This is still with a generous rent and car payment. And also based on the average starting salary for the nation - I live in a higher COL area so ideally, I should be making higher than average and that will help with my higher than average rent.

ETA: My repayment will be ~$1200/mo for 25yr loans. I'll be paying ~$2000/mo which will drastically shorten that 25yr period. (these are gross estimates)
Remember, everyone has different loan packages, I will not have $275K in debt at a 6.8% interest rate. I will have around $130K at 6.8% interest rate. The rest are lower interest rates except a tiny one at 10% that I'm paying down right now.

 

[Robdude]

Where are you getting 4%? The student loans I have are at 6.8% (all federal).

I used 4% as the 'best case'. I don't know too much about student loans, but I have some friends who consolidated their loans with another company and got lower rates.

It's been a while since I was looking at loan stuff, but I know I had some loans at 4.5% (the subsidized ones), but what was a relatively small percent of my total loans.

I found the loan rates for 2010-2011 on this site: http://blog.studentloannetwork.com/financial-aid/2010-2011-federal-student-loan-interest-rates/

Using 6.8% - over 10 years; you'd have a monthly payment of $3,164.71

 

[168135]

I think all of my student loans are 4% (Canadian here).

Also, you can apply for certain things that make paying off your loan easier:
-No interest accumulation or payments for 6 months (can apply a maximum of 5 times)
- Payment reduction without penelization
- If your grades are within a certain range, you don't have to pay back certain amounts

From what I've heard, as long as you don't skip a payment, the government is willing to work with you to get your loan paid off.

I may have to start dealing with this in May when I graduate. We'll see.

 

[Coquette22]

I think all of my student loans are 4% (Canadian here).

Nope. I wish! Canadian student loans are based off the prime rate.

For Canada Student Loans issued on, or after August 1, 1995:

• the fixed interest rate is prime + 5% and;
• the floating rate is prime + 2.5%.

For Canada Student Loans issued prior to August 1, 1995: the annual interest rate is 3.265%.

 

[LivestockDoc]

Sorry, kaydubs, I forgot to get back to this thread and answer you.

.... I seriously admire non-trads. I feel fortunate to know this is what I want to do at my ripe young age of 22 (vet med) and I know you share the same dream.

I don't actually. I don't have a dream career. They're all just jobs to me.
Some are more enjoyable then others. I just think medicine is way cool. Farming is way cool too, but there's no money in that sadly.

I'm not positive of your age (and I'm too polite to ask-seriously, don't feel any obligation or any remote feeling to say!) but I support you.

I'm 44. I appreciate the support.

What is your current occupation/why change to vet med?

I am a retired entrepreneur.

 

[LivestockDoc]

Do I need to go up there and take you out to lunch again?

Yes! I need a break from all this crap.

 

[pennyonthefloor]

LSD: Gonna buy a lottery ticket for you next time I go to the store so we can be classmates at OSU.....

 

[168135]

Nope. I wish! Canadian student loans are based off the prime rate.

Cool. My friend lied 5% isn't that bad though.

Student loans are one thing I wished they would have taught me about before applying to university... or even now would be nice.

 

[Coquette22]

Cool. My friend lied 5% isn't that bad though.

Student loans are one thing I wished they would have taught me about before applying to university... or even now would be nice.

No, they're prime+5%, and prime is currently 3.00%. So right now, it's at 8% interest. There's also a floating rate, which is prime+2.5%, but then your interest changes based on what the current prime rate is in the country, rather then the rate when you started paying (I think that's how it works). So AIUI, if you take the fixed option, your interest will be the prime rate when you start paying+5%. If you take the floating option, then your interest will change depending on what the Bank of Canada sets the prime rate at, plus 2.5%.

 

[EllieGirl89]

http://www.ibrinfo.org/index.php

What about this, guys? It almost seems too good to be true, but it it isn't it seems like an ideal situation. I did the calculation based on the debt I expect to accrue (approximately $140,000) and the starting salary I expect (about $45,000). It said I probably would qualify for an income-based loan repayment, meaning my monthly payment would be about $360. That's WAY more manageable than the nearly $2,000 per month that I would have to pay otherwise. Plus, the loans are forgiven after 25 years, so I think I'd end up paying something like half of what would be normally owed on a 25-year loan. The only catch is that you have to pay taxes on the remaining balance, and I don't know how that works out.

Just a thought though.

 

[deleted266066]

.

 

[pennyonthefloor]

Maybe I'm just being naieve about the whole financial aspect of vet school.... I don't know. I understand how everyone can be fearful-- I completely get it. Prior to buying my house and a car 3 years ago, the notion that I'd be $150k in debt from those two purchases terrified me (and really made me question many companies' business practices-- that two independent institutions believed that I could pay back significant amounts of money.... craziness...).... Seeing that as it rolls out month-by-month, it's really not all that bad. I'm not excited to at least double my debt (existing financial obligations + vet school debt.... yeah... in looking at student loans, I'll be taking money out of one loan to pay another-- not exactly 'smart' but it's what I've got to do.... gotta have a roof over my head and have to get to class...), but it seems doable. I know my salary will be at least double of what I'm making right now.... so to expect my debt to be double that, doesn't seem all that bad. I may eat Ramen noodles for a while.... but I quite enjoy the chicken ones, so it won't be all that bad!

I have talked to a lot of people that get in this mindset of not being able to picture what their income will be like or what their finances will be... I guess my overall thought with vet school is this: as long as you don't get your DVM and waste it (i.e. go through all that schooling to become a manager at McDonald's), things will work out. I have plenty of friends that, out of fear of failure or being unable to step out of their comfort zone, have taken jobs they are over-qualified for that pay them significantly less than what they're worth (example- friend of mine has their masters degree and is working serving at a restaurant... Highly intelligent individual, has had great experiences that would land them an excellent job-- have even given them leads on some great job opportunities... but they are utterly terrified of change). Sometimes the real world sucks and financial issues can be complex, but I don't feel that any CVM would intentionally set someone up for failure or admit someone they didn't feel could learn how to appropriately manage their finances. Vet schools do accept quite intelligent individuals.... stats from each school prove it. Just my opinion.

From my perspective (and that's all it is... my perspective), I know it's sometimes difficult for individuals that rely on loans in undergrad and move straight on to loans from vet school to grasp what the 'real world' is like. I was in that boat... in undergrad, though I had a part-time job for 'extra money' or to help supplement my loan money... I had no real financial obligations.... the real world doesn't operate in that way and I've seen people fail straight out of undergrad because they become accustomed to the loan way of life...

I try not to let financial issues bog down the excitement that I'll be pursuing something that I've wanted my entire life but I'm not ignoring them. Heck, I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that, in 224 days I will be sitting in the VMAB at OSU! Cheer up to all of those starting out in c/o 2015 (or those still applying).... I have faith that all will work out. Don't give yourselves ulcers before we even start class...

 

[LivestockDoc]

LSD: Gonna buy a lottery ticket for you next time I go to the store so we can be classmates at OSU.....

Ah, thanks penny! I'm taking a practice MCAT tomorrow to get a sense of what it looks like. If I decide to go that route instead, I plan to apply to Ohio State med school. Who knows? I could still end up in C-bus so I can play with my SDN vet buddies! You, Squibby, LMMS, and I could go out on the lawn and play kickball using EllieG in her bubble!

 

[pennyonthefloor]

Ah, thanks penny! I'm taking a practice MCAT tomorrow to get a sense of what it looks like. If I decide to go that route instead, I plan to apply to Ohio State med school. Who knows? I could still end up in C-bus so I can play with my SDN vet buddies! You, Squibby, LMMS, and I could go out on the lawn and play kickball using EllieG in her bubble!

Been on both campuses at OSU (med school campus and vet school campus)......

.....we're more fun!!

OOoh... we could have fun drifting EllieG across the Olentangy!

 

[EllieGirl89]

 

[l2vet]

I'm a numbers cruncher and an excel spreadsheet junkie. According to my calculations I will graduate vet school with ~$275K in debt (including undergrad, interest, etc.), If I make $65K right off the bat and never get a raise I should be able to pay off my debt in less than 10 years. This is factoring in rent (in an expensive area), car payment (for a brand new realistic dream car), health and car insurance, food, utilities, pet costs, gasoline, putting away money in savings, and having a bit leftover for misc. I would still be living mightily comfortable.

10 years...to me, ain't so bad!

I think the debt load is a lot, but doable if you have the mindset to make it a positive outcome.

That's EXACTLY the way I look at it. I also take heart in the fact that I have wonderful parents who knows how to save your way through anything. My parents had two children on 1) my father's grad school fellowship (yes a fellowship, read: $20,000/year. Maybe.) and part time employment of my mother at a job an hour away by bus and then 2) on my father's post-doc salary alone (it wasn't much of an improvement over the $20,000 a year). That was in the early-mid 90s, and I'm certainly no economist, but http://www.westegg.com/inflation/ says that $20,000 in 1990 is roughly $32,500 today, and $30,000 is a bit over $48,500.

If you do not want to do this "veterinarian thing" enough that living on that kind of a salary, learning 500 ways to cook ground chuck and pasta, getting by in a small (read: tiny) apartment, buying 20# sacks of rice to save money, walking/biking/taking the bus/driving frighteningly ugly cars, forgoing cable/satellite/cell phones/gym memberships, not taking vacations any further than the free 4th of July fireworks, or similar cost-cutting measures in order to pay off the massive debt (IS or OOS) that you are going to graduate with is completely undoable, then this profession is probably not for you.

All of those are things I personally remember being done in my household. And when dad was the single breadwinner on that post-doc salary, not only did we get by with two young children (we weren't in luxury, but we never went hungry and there were plenty of fun times), but my parents maintained a stellar credit rating and even saved a little money. It can be done, and people do it all the time, and while it's stressful, you can not only do it, you can have fun and you can be happy.

I'm very hopeful when I look towards vet school graduation... I guess I have my mother to thank for that Thanks mom. <3

 

[kaydubs]

I could still end up in C-bus so I can play with my SDN vet buddies! You, Squibby, LMMS, and I could go out on the lawn and play kickball using EllieG in her bubble!

.....I really wanna attend this. If I say "pretty please," can I get a front row seat?? (No offense meant, EG. I think it may (or may not) be comparable that I have similar numbers of accidents.)

 

[alliecat44]

People who say, "oh, plenty of people have done this before, it will all work out" are incorrect. Your neighborhood veterinarian did NOT have this issue to this degree when they graduated.

The ONLY people who "have done this before" are the ones who are currently DOING it. Meaning the ones who have graduated in the past five years or so, since the astronomically fast-paced rises in tuition began.

Interesting how you don't see a single recent or soon-to-be graduate posting such a rosy outlook.

 

[nuevaburra]

The thing is, ALL educated graduates are facing the same dilemma right now. Tuition for undergraduates is going up waaaaay faster than inflation, while there are few jobs and stagnant wages. Sure, vet school will probably only double my starting income while at least quadrupling my debt, but it's not that much worse than where I am at now.

So you can be all doom and gloom about it, or just decide "hey it's only money and anyone else who had to pay their way through school is gonna be in the same boat". Either we all find a may to make it through, or the entire economy collapses. Either way, I get to play with microscopes so whatevs.

 

[l2vet]

The thing is, ALL educated graduates are facing the same dilemma right now. Tuition for undergraduates is going up waaaaay faster than inflation, while there are few jobs and stagnant wages. Sure, vet school will probably only double my starting income while at least quadrupling my debt, but it's not that much worse than where I am at now.

So you can be all doom and gloom about it, or just decide "hey it's only money and anyone else who had to pay their way through school is gonna be in the same boat". Either we all find a may to make it through, or the entire economy collapses. Either way, I get to play with microscopes so whatevs.

 

[alliecat44]

Just because it sucks for a lot of people doesn't mean it's necessarily a good idea to enter into a sucky situation yourself.

If a thousand people jumped off a bridge...

I think it's a bit dismissive/immature (? dare I say it) to just completely write off the warnings of the ONLY PEOPLE WHO ARE ACTUALLY LIVING THIS REALITY as saying, "oh, you're all doom and gloom and stuff, jeez."

As I pointed out earlier, I haven't run across a single post from a recent or soon-to-be graduating vet student that is not urging at the very least strong caution and at the most absolute pleas to "don't do it."

I have always been one of the follow-my-dream-at-all-cost type folks--and even now wouldn't know what the heck else to do with my life to make it 1/10 as fulfilling--but even I am having some misgivings about my career choice and the whole process. It doesn't mean I won't be successful and love what I do--but man, it would be nice to have that extra $$ and the extra time with which to enjoy it. Or, more importantly, to live without the stress of knowing that one major repair on my car (currently with 126K miles) could put me into SERIOUS trouble. Just that little bit of security--sometime before I reach 40--would be nice.

 

[Dsmoody23]

Just because it sucks for a lot of people doesn't mean it's necessarily a good idea to enter into a sucky situation yourself.

If a thousand people jumped off a bridge...

I think it's a bit dismissive/immature (? dare I say it) to just completely write off the warnings of the ONLY PEOPLE WHO ARE ACTUALLY LIVING THIS REALITY as saying, "oh, you're all doom and gloom and stuff, jeez."

As I pointed out earlier, I haven't run across a single post from a recent or soon-to-be graduating vet student that is not urging at the very least strong caution and at the most absolute pleas to "don't do it."

I have always been one of the follow-my-dream-at-all-cost type folks--and even now wouldn't know what the heck else to do with my life to make it 1/10 as fulfilling--but even I am having some misgivings about my career choice and the whole process. It doesn't mean I won't be successful and love what I do--but man, it would be nice to have that extra $$ and the extra time with which to enjoy it. Or, more importantly, to live without the stress of knowing that one major repair on my car (currently with 126K miles) could put me into SERIOUS trouble. Just that little bit of security--sometime before I reach 40--would be nice.

Do you seriously feel like this point of view hasn't been adequately expressed in this thread?

 

[NittanyKitty]

Do you seriously feel like this point of view hasn't been adequately expressed in this thread?

Or that you haven't been completely dismissive of this point of view every time it has been broached despite not being a veterinary student yourself?

 

[l2vet]

Look, it's been discussed in this thread ad nauseum that veterinarians, especially new grads, are woefully underpaid and woefully over-burdened with debt. We get it.

I for one am still looking forward to not only going to school but graduating, working, and paying off all that burdensome debt. If that irritates you... well, I'm not really sorry. At all. I AM sorry that you're so down about your career choice. I wish everyone the best of luck in everything.

I find that, when things have moved to a point where you can no longer control them, i.e. you have graduated with X debt, and that is no longer in your control, and there is nothing you are able (or are willing) to do about it, you can either:
1) worry about it all the time
2) worry about it prudently and chill the heck out
3) never worry about it and let it all go to pot

I won't assume you're #1 if you won't assume I'm #3.

 

[Dsmoody23]

Or that you haven't been completely dismissive of this point of view every time it has been broached despite not being a veterinary student yourself?

Absolutely everyone in this thread, regardless of point of view, recognizes that 200K is a lot of money.

Believe it or not, you don't need to be a veterinary student to understand what debt means to a working adult.

There's a difference between being 'dismissive' and not needing to hear the same information 7 times from the same person.

 

[alliecat44]

There's a difference between being 'dismissive' and not needing to hear the same information 7 times from the same person.

The exact same thing could be said about your posts. Except I'm sure it's way more than 7 by now...

And where on this thread did I post my own perspective before yesterday??

 

[Dsmoody23]

The exact same thing could be said about your posts. Except I'm sure it's way more than 7 by now...

And where on this thread did I post my own perspective before yesterday??

The undergrads here, hopefully, can add up the debt and cross reference it with the starting salaries. As a result of all the 'chicken little' hyperbole, you guys are going a pretty grave disservice to marginally committed prospective students. And you're bumming everyone else out.

At a lot of undergrad schools, pre-vet is a very scary undertaking, as I'm sure you remember. Most of us come to this forum as a way to de-stress and reorder our thinking about the process. And we come here to encourage each other.

I don't think any of us come here to have disgruntled post-grads project doom into an already scary situation.

If you're a current student and you're stressed about your own personal career choice and the financial implications thereof...
that would be an excellent topic to post in the discussion boards for Veterinary Students.

 

[alliecat44]

Many, many people do not do their due diligence about pursuing veterinary medicine. How many folks on here have looked at the website from the Bureau of Labor Statistics? Anyone? You, Dsmoody? And "due diligence" does NOT mean solely asking their local vet their opinion--when that vet likely has absolutely no idea of what has happened to veterinary education in the past 5-10 years.

Second, I think it is irresponsible for people who know firsthand about the situation to let every single possible pre-vet think that there are no downsides to pursuing veterinary medicine. Sorry if it's "bringing you down"--but the truth hurts sometimes.

What's that phrase--whistling past the graveyard...?

Third, I have no desire to do anything else--but I think it's very telling that you have people on here who are so incredibly committed to veterinary medicine who STILL have a queasy feeling about the debt load. Again, useful information for anyone who might be sitting on the fence (LivestockDoc).

Finally, I think it's pretty insulting that you apparently only want vet students to post answers to questions YOU want them to respond to--and only content that YOU happen to agree with--as long as it is HAPPY. How asinine and offensive. Vet students are a pre-vet's most valuable resource on SDN. Many, many questions are asked specifically to veterinary students. And there is NO RULE about which forum people are allowed to post in. Which is a GOOD thing.

By the way, pre-vets--one classmate sent out 70 resumes. Received no response from 68 practices. The two responses she did receive were to say that they were not hiring and to wish her luck.

Another of my classmates sent out 60 resumes. Hasn't heard back from any of them.

These are intelligent people at the top of our class. Sending resumes to practices all over the state, the few (very few) who are advertising and many, many more who aren't (because veterinary practices don't always advertise when they are seeking an associate).

That should tell you something about the job market.

 

[l2vet]

By the way, pre-vets--one classmate sent out 70 resumes. Received no response from 68 practices. The two responses she did receive were to say that they were not hiring and to wish her luck.

Another of my classmates sent out 60 resumes. Hasn't heard back from any of them.

These are intelligent people at the top of our class. Sending resumes to practices all over the state, the few (very few) who are advertising and many, many more who aren't (because veterinary practices don't always advertise when they are seeking an associate).

That should tell you something about the job market.

Did they send outside of the state? I'm not mocking you, btw, I really just want to know.

 

[Dsmoody23]

Second, I think it is irresponsible for people who know firsthand about the situation to let every single possible pre-vet think that there are no downsides to pursuing veterinary medicine. Sorry if it's "bringing you down"--but the truth hurts sometimes.

The truth hurt 4 weeks ago, when this thread was actually fresh.
And before 6 other people made the exact same case, after which everyone agreed that the job prospects and pay sucked.

Finally, I think it's pretty insulting that you apparently only want vet students to post answers to questions YOU want them to respond to--and only content that YOU happen to agree with--as long as it is HAPPY. How asinine and offensive. Vet students are a pre-vet's most valuable resource on SDN. Many, many questions are asked specifically to veterinary students. And there is NO RULE about which forum people are allowed to post in. Which is a GOOD thing.

If you're looking for someone to thank you for beating a dead horse, you're talking to the wrong guy.

I fully appreciate the advice and information that current students pass on to those of us in undergrad. But there's a line between being a useful mentor and being a harbinger of doom. It's a thick line.

It's hard to get a job in the middle of an 8 year recession?

Duly Noted. Thanks for lugging the tablets down from the mountain top.

 

[NittanyKitty]

Many, many people do not do their due diligence about pursuing veterinary medicine. How many folks on here have looked at the website from the Bureau of Labor Statistics? Anyone? You, Dsmoody? And "due diligence" does NOT mean solely asking their local vet their opinion--when that vet likely has absolutely no idea of what has happened to veterinary education in the past 5-10 years.

Second, I think it is irresponsible for people who know firsthand about the situation to let every single possible pre-vet think that there are no downsides to pursuing veterinary medicine. Sorry if it's "bringing you down"--but the truth hurts sometimes.

What's that phrase--whistling past the graveyard...?

Third, I have no desire to do anything else--but I think it's very telling that you have people on here who are so incredibly committed to veterinary medicine who STILL have a queasy feeling about the debt load. Again, useful information for anyone who might be sitting on the fence (LivestockDoc).

Finally, I think it's pretty insulting that you apparently only want vet students to post answers to questions YOU want them to respond to--and only content that YOU happen to agree with--as long as it is HAPPY. How asinine and offensive. Vet students are a pre-vet's most valuable resource on SDN. Many, many questions are asked specifically to veterinary students. And there is NO RULE about which forum people are allowed to post in. Which is a GOOD thing.

By the way, pre-vets--one classmate sent out 70 resumes. Received no response from 68 practices. The two responses she did receive were to say that they were not hiring and to wish her luck.

Another of my classmates sent out 60 resumes. Hasn't heard back from any of them.

These are intelligent people at the top of our class. Sending resumes to practices all over the state, the few (very few) who are advertising and many, many more who aren't (because veterinary practices don't always advertise when they are seeking an associate).

That should tell you something about the job market.

I, like alliecat, am so, so, so thankful to have been given the chance to pursue this career. It's meant everything to me since I was a child, and I am COMMITTED to it through and through. I think it's a great, rewarding career with lots of possibilities, and I am so excited to see other folks pursuing the same path as me.

BUT that doesn't mean that there aren't serious things to consider when pursuing this career just like there aren't other things to consider when you decide on business, teaching, medicine, or acting as a career. It's important to look at the good and the bad when making these choices, and there is nothing wrong with having a serious, grounded discussion about finances. I think it is very telling that during our orientation we had no less than three hours of discussion emphasizing the huge debt graduates find themselves in. We are required to take a two week intensive business class, a lot of which focuses on the best way to pay off $100,000+ of debt, start a 401K, and have enough for living expenses. Many articles in veterinary publications about this issue are constantly being posted on bulletin boards and e-mailed to our classes. This is not an issue to simply ignore when deciding on this path, which is what you seem to want prospective students to do.

I am NOT trying to "scare" students away. I love recruiting and speaking with prospective and accepted applicants at our school. I started a blog so that my high school agriculture and science teachers can share it as a resource with their vet-leaning students. I go home on breaks and hold information sessions and mini veterinary wetlabs at local middle and high schools to spark interest. I want students to look favorably on this as a career but once that application date becomes a near reality, I also want them to consider the many, many pros and the big financial con when deciding.

Just because it's something you don't want to hear and you don't agree with doesn't mean it's wrong or "doom and gloom" or unnecessarily depressing. It's a discussion and a reality that most of the recent grad doctors I know (as in graduated less than five years ago) wish they had honestly been given before applying. Would it have changed most of their minds about choosing vet med? For most of them, no. They love it and would still have gone into it despite the difficult debt load. Would they have liked some honest warning about what life would be like post-graduation (about one of them renting out a basement to live in at age 30 because she is unable to afford her own place)? Unanimously, YES, and this is what current students and schools now feel it is their obligation to pass on to prospective applicants.

Debt isn't unique to the veterinary medicine world. But the "perfect storm" sort of environment (rising debt loads, much lower starting salary, stagnant application pool, extreme crowding in low-paying post-degree training, etc.) is pretty unique and students such as alliecat that are poised on the edge of graduation are the best and most honest resource available to new students. Please don't discount her anecdotes and advice simply because they're "unpleasant". That's just foolish.

/back to studying.

 

[NStarz]

I actually really appreciate this discussion

 

[Tator17]

I actually really appreciate this discussion

Ditto. Thanks for the honest information alliecat44 and NittanyKitty.

 

[AngSchmange]

Here's my question. If I'm considering a school that costs 32 grand a year, why are they telling me to take out 65k a year? I can't imagine rent ANYWHERE costs that much money. This is London however, which I know is expensive to move to and live in, and I really can't imagine spending THAT much money in 1 year, like seriously. Am I missing something? I understand it's gonna cost a lot to vaccinate myself, get books/tools, rent, but I won't have a car in London, and I'm pretty frugal already when it comes to shopping for clothes and food. I like my cheap pasta and sauce that'll make 3 meals hehe. I was thinking more like 15k each year for my living expenses, which would mean taking out 47 (say round to 50)k each year. Seem reasonable? What am I missing? I found a lot of places in London for 400 pounds a month, which is like 700 dollars, and I haven't even started seriously looking, so maybe I could even find a house with 3 or 4 bedrooms that brings down the cost dramatically. It also appeals to me that if I get my degree from the school in London (RVC), I could practice in all of Europe AND America. Which really, would hopefully help me out in the job-searching haha.

And I can appreciate what your'e saying alliecat, my best friend's mom looked at me like I was a serious nutcase after I told her I'd be in 200k of debt after vet school and MAYBE find a job making 60k...only after 3 years of interning/residency to get some more experience in Exotics/wildlife, whatever I choose. It's daunting for sure, but I also think that there are other options than just BEING a vet after getting a DVM, which really appeals to me. Research, or soemthing like working at NIH/CDC really appeals to me, and something that WhtsThFrequency (sp?) said about pathology really appealed. I love that the DVM allows so much more than just practicing medicine, so hopefully it's worth it. After all, we're doing all of this to do what we love, right?!

 

[Dsmoody23]

Let's never fight again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkdQN8Pp7_w

 

[alliecat44]

NittanyKitty, I would just like to say that your business education sounds AWESOME. Truly amazing.

We get zero business education. One one-hour lecture the first year of vet school about debt where nobody pays attention because they're too excited to be sitting in vet school and graduation is so far away (hmmm, kind of like this thread...) but nothing else. I would have LOVED to hear all that stuff about how to manage loan payments, 401(k), all that stuff!

But then, I NCSU an embarrassingly large amount.

 

[withoutane]

Let's never fight again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkdQN8Pp7_w

Poor guy. I could see his faith in the human race decreasing exponentially towards the end of the video haha.

 

[nuevaburra]

I didn't mean to be dismissive. I think this is (maybe, was) a valuable discussion. It sparked a serious discussion with my SO today about debt.

My point was just, most of higher education has the same problem right now. So to say that veterinary students need to be aware is good, but it is not like it is so much worse than elsewhere. An undergraduate taking out 60K in loans to get a degree in [insert liberal arts degree here], with starting earning potential of 25K isn't necessarily better off than a vet student with 150K in debt for a 60K starting salary. Job prospects suck for most people right now.

 

[NittanyKitty]

Let's never fight again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkdQN8Pp7_w

Haha! Way to suck me back into this thread - awesome!

Baaaack to studying. Or sleep. Whichever.

 

[gracietiger]

I, too, want to thank the vet students contributing to these very important topics!!! As a non-traditional student, my perspective over the years has definitely evolved from "no amount of money will hold me back from my dreams" to appreciating the implications of such a poor debt/salary ratio. I do not believe this topic can be discussed enough, and these discussions have been seriously vital for me in deciding the best way for me to proceed in pursuing this career.
I have very strong reservations about entering the profession for the reasons discussed here, but thanks to alliecat, nittanykitty, and all other students contributing their experienced insights, I have been giving much, much more careful consideration to how I may best financially support myself through the process of becoming a vet. Plus, these discussions have resulted in me changing my spending habits, if to do nothing else but save a little more for school.
So, I do not want the vet students who take time out of their busy schedules to come here purely to help us pre-vets to believe that there should be a limit to the number of times these issues are addressed or the number of contributors who share their insights because I, for one, benefit enormously from you - and I thank you so much for sharing what you have learned with all of us!!!

 

[Minnerbelle]

oh how i wish i could be young and unafraid again! Back in college, I used to think that no matter how much I took out in loans for vet school, it would somehow take care of itself. I mean, most people in this country seem to get by just fine, and for crying out loud I'ma be a D-O-C-T-O-R! I figured that the entire profession would collapse if these loans weren't feasible.

fast forward 5 years and is how i feel when think about my money situation. even if i get a job, just the thought of how much i would have to gross in order to justify my salary to my boss makes me cringe. and that's for the piss poor salary that i'm already sad about. and the realization that my cost of attendance for 4 years of undergrad + 4 years of vet school is well beyond $450k makes me feel like the biggest squanderer on the face of this earth. if i were to do it all over again, i prob wouldn't change a thing, but still...


i wish vin had one public page, where vets can post for a pre-vet audience (maybe name shows up for people logged into vin, but anonymous to those that aren't) about 1.) what they love about being a vet with motivational stories as they come along, and 2.) what they dislike about vet med, and things they wish they'd known when they were pre-vets. 'cause like, seeing a lot of what's posted there in terms of practice management/realities of new grads has been quite the eye opener for me. i feel like some of that would be more than appropriate to share with the masses.

 

[nyanko]

I don't want to single anyone out or anything, but I mean, almost everybody who posts stuff about their financial issues and fears and such here....then says "I wouldn't have done anything differently even if I'd known."

This is hard for me to articulate, because I really don't mean to be insulting or otherwise dismissive, but it seems like a whole bunch of borderline-hypocritical pontificating from an outside perspective. I absolutely know that everyone is sincerely scared and concerned with the increasing debt load and that most all of you have the best of intentions in sharing your thoughts on it. But like, when a vet student says "I would do this anyway" while not really justifying why they would, and then shoots down any justification or the same attitude expressed from a pre-vet, it just looks really condescending. And even if it's not a conscious or intentional thing, that's how it is going to look.

 

[Savethewhales]

I have a question and forgive me if it has been answered and I didn't see the posted answer....

I saw someone mention repayment of student loans in 10 years? Is that normal? I thought student loans were much longer than that in terms of repayment which would make the monthly payments much lower.

Is seems weird to me that most home loans are 30 years and school loans are 10 years? Is that normal?