OT: Thread of not-so-awesome

[squibby]

I don't want to single anyone out or anything, but I mean, almost everybody who posts stuff about their financial issues and fears and such here....then says "I wouldn't have done anything differently even if I'd known."

This is hard for me to articulate, because I really don't mean to be insulting or otherwise dismissive, but it seems like a whole bunch of borderline-hypocritical pontificating from an outside perspective. I absolutely know that everyone is sincerely scared and concerned with the increasing debt load and that most all of you have the best of intentions in sharing your thoughts on it. But like, when a vet student says "I would do this anyway" while not really justifying why they would, and then shoots down any justification or the same attitude expressed from a pre-vet, it just looks really condescending. And even if it's not a conscious or intentional thing, that's how it is going to look.

Dear Lord,
Thank you for nyanko.

Amen.

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[teatime]

I have a question and forgive me if it has been answered and I didn't see the posted answer....

I saw someone mention repayment of student loans in 10 years? Is that normal? I thought student loans were much longer than that in terms of repayment which would make the monthly payments much lower.

Is seems weird to me that most home loans are 30 years and school loans are 10 years? Is that normal?

I was thinking the same thing myself. I know drawing the loan out over a longer period of time would increase the total cost, but it would def decrease the monthly pay back amount. Is this even an option?

 

[Minnerbelle]

I don't want to single anyone out or anything, but I mean, almost everybody who posts stuff about their financial issues and fears and such here....then says "I wouldn't have done anything differently even if I'd known."

This is hard for me to articulate, because I really don't mean to be insulting or otherwise dismissive, but it seems like a whole bunch of borderline-hypocritical pontificating from an outside perspective. I absolutely know that everyone is sincerely scared and concerned with the increasing debt load and that most all of you have the best of intentions in sharing your thoughts on it. But like, when a vet student says "I would do this anyway" while not really justifying why they would, and then shoots down any justification or the same attitude expressed from a pre-vet, it just looks really condescending. And even if it's not a conscious or intentional thing, that's how it is going to look.

i would classify myself as stupid rather than hypocritical. at least for me, my point is more that the financial situation sucks hard core and i hate it... but i dunno what else i would do with my life, so i'll just have to live with it. i'm just going on faith alone that the vet profession will be as rewarding as i think it's going to be, 'cause if it's not, i'm in for a world of hurting. i'm not discouraging anyone from going into vet med. i'm just saying finances should be something everyone should actually think about without just saying, "i'm sure it'll all work out somehow."

to be blunt, my financial situation IS doom and gloom to me, and it pisses me off when people tell me it shouldn't be. it's just personally grating when people tell me that my financial situation isn't that bad, when they don't have all the facts straight regarding simple things like taxes, interest, take home pay, etc... Maybe I'm feeling esp strongly about it because I hear this all the time outside of sdn. That a 70k salary is not something to complain about. Um, yeah, a 70k salary without a buttload of debt would be amazing. Is it so awful of me to be a bit resentful that over 55% of my salary will be gone before any of it gets cashed into my checking account?

That's a complete separate issue from my opinions on whether they should decide to pursue vet med or not, cause honestly, I don't have one. I really don't care. I totally missed that this thread was about whether people should or shouldn't pursue vet med. I didn't realize that I was supposed to balance out my opinions on finances with totally irrelevant things that make vet med so wonderful. puppies, kittens, and turtles! oh my!

sorry for being grouchy. my life totally blows in many a ways right now

 

[Minnerbelle]

I was thinking the same thing myself. I know drawing the loan out over a longer period of time would increase the total cost, but it would def decrease the monthly pay back amount. Is this even an option?

YES it's an option. You can go upto 25 years, at which point your loans are forgiven. I was told by a finance guy that the best thing to do would be to choose the payment plan under IBR for the longest term possible (even if you aren't counting on loan forgiveness and plan on paying it all back). This way, you have a very low minimum payment in case you are having financial issues, but no one's stopping you from paying as much as you can. You can set up a goal for yourself to pay it back in 10 if you want, and pay accordingly but that buffer's there in case you need it.

If you have a lot of loans (the average $130k let's say), it's not advisable to set up for a 10 year plan, where you're held to paying $1500/month consistently for 10 years!

 

[NittanyKitty]

I don't want to single anyone out or anything, but I mean, almost everybody who posts stuff about their financial issues and fears and such here....then says "I wouldn't have done anything differently even if I'd known."

This is hard for me to articulate, because I really don't mean to be insulting or otherwise dismissive, but it seems like a whole bunch of borderline-hypocritical pontificating from an outside perspective. I absolutely know that everyone is sincerely scared and concerned with the increasing debt load and that most all of you have the best of intentions in sharing your thoughts on it. But like, when a vet student says "I would do this anyway" while not really justifying why they would, and then shoots down any justification or the same attitude expressed from a pre-vet, it just looks really condescending. And even if it's not a conscious or intentional thing, that's how it is going to look.

Ooooh. I really hope I didn't come off as super-hypocritical.

I guess my point is just it worries me when I talk to pre-vet students who have only some vague idea of how expensive our training is or have no idea at all. Students who decide to go to their dream school over their in-state for boatloads more money - and I KNOW that there are sometimes family or personal reasons why this is the case but I'm referring to choosing simply based on that "warm fuzzy" feeling - without seeming to consider the implications. Students who continue to live waaaay above their means off of loan money that just magically appears in their bank account. Stuff like that.

This is a great field, and yes I would do it all over again (hopefully I will still say this after five or so years after graduation). I don't want to dissuade people from pursuing their dreams and goals but to encourage them to do it with a realistic mindset as to what they'll be facing in school and upon graduation. I had done a lot of research before applying and felt I had a good grasp on this situation, but it still felt like I was drowning in a huge bucket of cold water when we were lectured in orientation about how not to go out with friends without thinking of how the $15 we spend adding up to $30 by the time you pay it back. It's sombering and it's an issue that needs to be given full consideration by students before applying.

I am here because I, like Minnerbelle, have faith that it will all work out somehow. That seems like kind of a naive mindset considering my "doom and gloom" money talk, but if I can get a job and have my SO also employed with me, I have confidence that my loans can be paid off in time. That place to live and bunch of kids I want too? I also know that we'll find a way for those. I'm not saying that it's impossible (although at some point debt loads and future employment pairings might lead it to be but I won't go there) but it's important to go into it with your eyes open. That's all.

 

[kaydubs]

I see where the last several posts have been coming from. [RANT]But, I am in the "financially obsessed" circle of pre-vets. I am struggling to pay off my undergrad stuff, and I work 3 jobs in my last semester of senior year just to attempt to take out a bit.... But, I digress. My main thought: Think about what you write. Speaking in a conversation is one thing, but just reading a response can come off in a completely different way than you intend. And you aren't there to clarify exactly what you mean. From a person who obsesses about how my words can be interpreted, take this as you will. [/rant]

Dear Lord,
Thank you for nyanko.

Amen.

Haven't posted on here and I haven't read this thread lately. But, I second Squibbs's response. (Ignore me as you will!)

 

[l2vet]

This is a great field, and yes I would do it all over again (hopefully I will still say this after five or so years after graduation). I don't want to dissuade people from pursuing their dreams and goals but to encourage them to do it with a realistic mindset as to what they'll be facing in school and upon graduation. I had done a lot of research before applying and felt I had a good grasp on this situation, but it still felt like I was drowning in a huge bucket of cold water when we were lectured in orientation about how not to go out with friends without thinking of how the $15 we spend adding up to $30 by the time you pay it back. It's sombering and it's an issue that needs to be given full consideration by students before applying.

Of course it does! That's why it's so frustrating sometimes, because I think that there hasn't been a single person in this thread that has said, "who cares about the loans that's not that much anyway" or some other ridiculous comment--we all know how much this is going to impact our lives.

It doesn't help to have people reviving the thread with the same message over and over, or making comments like "the smart people are going into human med" (not you in particular, but the comment has indeed been made). That -does- make me resentful, a little. I can't help it. The smart people are doing what they WANT to do, with an understanding of the costs and rewards involved.

 

[Dsmoody23]

“A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.”

That's right. It's Winston Churchill.

KABOOM.

 

[l2vet]

I'm not sure what just happened, but I think you just won the game of LIFE.

 

[frozen_canadian]

Now that everyone has had their say, I want to make a request. Everyone on here bookmark this thread, especially the prevets. Come back to it when you're in your last year of vet school, and again when you are 2 years out of school. See if your point of view has changed. I bet it does.

 

[squibby]

Now that everyone has had their say, I want to make a request. Everyone on here bookmark this thread, especially the prevets. Come back to it when you're in your last year of vet school, and again when you are 2 years out of school. See if your point of view has changed. I bet it does.

Well, since this whole "internet" thing is likely just a passing phase it would be better to PRINT this entire thread, because it probably won't be here in 4-6 years. Just a suggestion.

 

[Marsala]

Now that everyone has had their say, I want to make a request. Everyone on here bookmark this thread, especially the prevets. Come back to it when you're in your last year of vet school, and again when you are 2 years out of school. See if your point of view has changed. I bet it does.

Lol, I'm pretty sure that at that point my undergrad loans will still make me want to vomit (since it's the only view I've expressed on this thread).

 

[gracietiger]

I have a question for the vet students who have responded to this discussion...

Warning: this is continuing the topic of finances and vet school, so if you're not interested in this discussion, no need to read on.

If you were in another professional school program (law, business, med), do you think you would have different feelings about the debt you are accumulating, knowing your expected salary would be higher (well, that's debatable in fields like law, I suppose, but let's assume you are expecting a six-figure salary right out of school)?

 

[NittanyKitty]

If you were in another professional school program (law, business, med), do you think you would have different feelings about the debt you are accumulating, knowing your expected salary would be higher (well, that's debatable in fields like law, I suppose, but let's assume you are expecting a six-figure salary right out of school)?

Geez I need to quit this thread, but I'll bite.

For me, yes. Sure, it's not ideal to have your debt roughly equal your starting salary (like my med school friends) but I'd definitely not be as antsy as I am looking at vet starting salaries.

 

[alliecat44]

+1 to NittanyKitty for continued excellent points. +1 to FrozenCanadian for the bookmarking suggestion--I was actually thinking the same thing!! (Kind of like when I was complaining about how vet school gives so much emphasis on the irrelevant stuff when so much of the important stuff isn't even touched on, and I got lambasted by certain pre-vets on here that EVERYTHING is equally important, and now those same people are having the same complaint now that they are actually IN vet school...but I digress.)

Re: nyanko's comment (which I think is a very good one), my response is actually also addressing gracietiger's question. I will say that if my career goal was to go into general practice, I would have chosen another career if I did not get accepted to my in-state school. (i.e., since I was rejected from my in-state twice, I would never have gone to vet school) It all goes back to the ceiling of your earning potential, as has been pointed out. In private practice, even being a practice owner (and taking on HOW much more debt?? ), all but the top single-digit percentage of practice owners top out at $140-150K from what I recall about the AVMA's most recent surveys. To top out at just over half your total debt load--and only with accumulating even MORE debt AND living your entire life around your practice, like most owners seem to (I know I would be thinking about the practice--as well as my patients--laying in bed at night without sleeping) AND having all the additional headaches of ownership--totally not worth it to me.

So, yes--if I was passionate about general practice instead of a particular specialty, I would not have gone to veterinary school due to finances. There. I said it.

 

[NittanyKitty]

What's your specialty interest, alliecat? How was the match process? Don't want to drag the thread totally off-topic, but what advice did your school give those of you going the internship-residency route? We've already been warned about the number of applicants compared to the number of positions, and I assume it will only get worse by the time I'm in your shoes...

Okay, I seriously am NOT a Debbie-downer in real life! This thread makes me come off like such a negative thinker.

 

[LetItSnow]

This thread is like listening to my 7-year-old dispense his worldly wisdom to my 4-year-old. Which he does. Frequently.

 

[alliecat44]

What's your specialty interest, alliecat? How was the match process? Don't want to drag the thread totally off-topic, but what advice did your school give those of you going the internship-residency route? We've already been warned about the number of applicants compared to the number of positions, and I assume it will only get worse by the time I'm in your shoes...

Okay, I seriously am NOT a Debbie-downer in real life! This thread makes me come off like such a negative thinker.

My interest is in neurology/neurosurgery. The match process went well--matched to a large, well-known private practice. The school has not given us any advice regarding residencies or internships. However, I know that my desired residency program had approximately 30 applicants for their one slot this past year.

 

[alliecat44]

This thread is like listening to my 7-year-old dispense his worldly wisdom to my 4-year-old. Which he does. Frequently.

And who precisely represents your 7-year old?

 

[l2vet]

So, yes--if I was passionate about general practice instead of a particular specialty, I would not have gone to veterinary school due to finances. There. I said it.

May I ask, and with the utmost respect, why do you insinuate that this is some stigmatized thing to say? That's a personal choice and no one's going to judge you for it.

 

[alliecat44]

May I ask, and with the utmost respect, why do you insinuate that this is some stigmatized thing to say? That's a personal choice and no one's going to judge you for it.

That's a great question. I think it's something somewhat unique to the veterinary profession that we are supposed to enjoy our job no matter what for its intrinsic benefits, i.e., helping the animals. Perhaps that perspective starts with the huge number of clients who can't/won't pay and then place a guilt trip on you about not wanting to work for free, saying, "don't you love animals?" Pretty sad. But especially on this forum, it seems that you're not really "serious" if you aren't willing to compromise almost every other aspect of your life for veterinary medicine. I am just about the most serious person you will meet regarding vet med--but at the age of 31, I do not have complete blinders on and there is a limit to what I would sacrifice for this profession. I'm just hoping it all works out while actively positioning myself (i.e., working my butt off) to ensure that it does.

 

[Dsmoody23]

This thread is like listening to my 7-year-old dispense his worldly wisdom to my 4-year-old. Which he does. Frequently.

Well, thanks for stopping in to pass that along.

Try not to trip over our toys as you head back over to the thread with the emoticons and 'funny animal' pictures.

 

[twelvetigers]

For pete's sake, you guys. This is getting a bit out of hand.

 

[dyachei]

I felt pretty comfortable with the debt level I was entering into because I was in-state. However, I've begun to have serious considerations about whether this was the correct call. First off, there are so few jobs out there right now. I've applied to many. Of the few I've heard back from, positions have been filled, they have incredibly low salaries (i.e. not competitive at all with the other veterinary clinics), or they have had so many applications. One job told me that they have had 57 applications for a veterinary job. They then proceeded to tell me that they normally had 2-3. Luckily, I have a working interview with them, but they had no idea they would have that many potential applicants. I am applying all across America and am having issues finding a job. I have applied to both VCA and Banfield and am waiting to hear from them in hopes of having SOMETHING after I graduate. I have been applying since October. There are very few people in my class that have jobs lined up. Those that do had contacts with the clinics before school and will be working at clinics they were previously technicians at (that I have heard of).

So please, understand that most of us are currently on edge or are scared that we made the wrong decisions. The debt load is incredibly large and the pay scale is not impressive nor are there jobs. We have a right to feel the way that we do and to inform others of the hardship they are getting themselves into.

 

[awaring1]

For pete's sake, you guys. This is getting a bit out of hand.

I know this is a really stupid thing to say on SDN, but after weeks of lurking I still do not understand the "point" of this thread.
It is all just very... very... depressing...

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."

That's right. It's Winston Churchill.

KABOOM.

^ best part of thread so far.

 

[NittanyKitty]

My interest is in neurology/neurosurgery. The match process went well--matched to a large, well-known private practice. The school has not given us any advice regarding residencies or internships. However, I know that my desired residency program had approximately 30 applicants for their one slot this past year.

WOW! Congrats, dear! That's really something to be proud of!

Those stats scare me a bit, but eh. Can't worry about that part tooooo much with comparative anatomy still staring me in the face!

 

[gracietiger]

Alliecat, congrats on cinching such a competitive position!!!!

Thank you so much for sharing your insights. I am saddened that you guys who are contributing to this thread are made to feel like you are "Debbie Downers." You are sharing your personal opinions, which you have accumulated based on your own experiences. Hopefully we are all mature and resourceful enough to be able to make up our own minds about what is best for us individually, but I think this forum, and the internet in general, is a wonderful tool for allowing us to have such a diverse and large set of resources to best make those decisions.

Alliecat, if you don't mind me digging a little deeper (b/c I am benefiting greatly from your insights), do you feel better about your future in vet med than you would as a GP b/c of the higher salary you expect? Despite having to spend more years accumulating interest as an intern, then as a resident?
Also, I am curious how you would feel about your path had you been a 30 year old non-trad entering vet med?

 

[alliecat44]

Hi gracie,

Yes, I do feel better about my future in this career due to the higher potential salary as a specialist. Being able to specialize is by NO MEANS a sure thing--absolutely not, especially in neuro, as it's very competitive!--but at least I have something to shoot for that has a higher ceiling than $150K. And yes, this is despite accumulating interest during further training. I am hoping that by the time that lump sum payment comes due at the end of the income-based repayment plan (25 years) I would have earned/saved enough that the taxable portion of the amount forgiven will be affordable.

Yes, it's a huge gamble.

And, gracie, I turn 32 three months after graduation. Just FYI.