Pharmacy is slowly going down. CVS/WAGs is a true def of modern day slavery. What are our options?

[beautifulrobot]

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But to be fair to Mambo, you're assuming a fair marketplace for pharmacy labor. There simply is no other bid for labor when the vast majority of employment is via a major corporation. Ever since 2008, bankruptcy and failure of the big boys was taken off the table. There has been the grossest misallocation of capital since and the middle class has suffered for it. With the hurdle rate of capital so low ( interest rate), it's impossible for the little guy to hang his own shingle and compete against the behemoths. Look about you the next time you drive home. Every stinkin business on the road has a link to Wall Street.

I am not making that assumption. I agree there are not many favorable choices for pharmacists in the current marketplace, but there is still a choice. You could make the argument that with slavery you also still have a choice between death or performing uncompensated labor, but the unfair choices provided to people who pursue pharmacy jobs is not reasonably the same as the choices faced by actual slaves. Pharmacists are not being forced to provide labor that is not of their choosing and that they are not being compensated for. You have the choice of leaving the company. You have the choice of doing non-pharmacy work. You have the choice of not working at all and living off of welfare and charity. Having limited options for what companies you can work for as a pharmacist and having limited control of your work environment while working for those companies does not meet the definition of slavery. Calling it slavery is hyperbolic and inaccurate.

ETA: "Slavery is any system in which principles of property law are applied to people, allowing individuals to own, buy and sell other individuals, as a de jure form of property. A slave is unable to withdraw unilaterally from such an arrangement and works without remuneration." - Good ol' Wikipedia

 

[Rouelle]

I don’t really think the term “slavery” appropriately describes being paid >>$100K to work 40 hr/wk in a well air-conditioned environment. Some jobs suck, but they don’t even start to approach slavery. Let’s all check back in on this when we have actually experienced a hardship of any kind.

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

That's wage slavery. Which is completely different than "modern slavery."

Is it?

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

You have a doctorate right? He’s not trying average person on the street. It diminishes the importance of stopping slavery by adding upper middle class (at worst) people who don’t like their jobs. It dilutes the meaning.
He wrote “true definition”. It makes you all seem like spoiled children to think that’s remotely reasonable.

Do you think the average MD, DO, OD, DPM, PHARMD, DDS is aware?

Do you consider serfdom substantially different?
What about indentured servitude?

Do you think calling the skeletons built into the foundations of St. Petersburg slaves diminishes the word?

How far do you think we are from state sponsored loans that no one will be able to pay back?

Do you think the average democratic socialist is uneducated or wrong?

It's hyperbolic, but it's being used to illustrate extreme disgust with a situation.
Kinda like calling Trump a Nazi.

To say it's "wrong" is silly.

 

[Grampus Mud]

. Pharmacists are not being forced to provide labor that is not of their choosing and that they are not being compensated for. .

Have you ever had to make a margin call? Especially when over-levered? This is what's happening to these kids coming out with 200K in debt. What's sick about the situation is they are the collateral. The only way to meet the margin call is to grin and suffer the working conditions. What we have today is a more insidious version of slavery in which the collateral pays for its own upkeep.

The reason why slavery in the South withered and died is that Bank of England could not keep track of the collateral. So the Crown tried another tactic. It made us all 14th Amendment citizens which is tantamount to be slaves to the Virginia Company today known as the Corporation of the United States of America.

 

[JamesL1585]

The thing that baffles me about the pharmacy profession, is the lack of inaction. If everybody thinks (retail) pharmacy is so horrible.... then why not shame the companies? Do you believe the general public would be excited to know that pharmacist struggle through their jobs, and that the corporations set them up for failure with metrics, and understaffing, etc? Why not take a survey amongst pharmacist, and their view of the profession get an n=300+, then send it to the NYT’s, and make sure you include a question that proves that metrics, and other things are not only poor working conditions, but also, cause patient safety risks. IDK. Just a thought.

This pharmacy shuffle thing is quite the conundrum. Nurses don’t put up with non-sense, and neither do doctors. It’s only pharmacist and I never understood why.

 

[Grampus Mud]

The thing that baffles me about the pharmacy profession, is the lack of inaction. If everybody thinks (retail) pharmacy is so horrible.... then why not shame the companies? Do you believe the general public would be excited to know that pharmacist struggle through their jobs, and that the corporations set them up for failure with metrics, and understaffing, etc? Why not take a survey amongst pharmacist, and their view of the profession get an n=300+, then send it to the NYT’s, and make sure you include a question that proves that metrics, and other things are not only poor working conditions, but also, cause patient safety risks. IDK. Just a thought.

This pharmacy shuffle thing is quite the conundrum. Nurses don’t put up with non-sense, and neither do doctors. It’s only pharmacist and I never understood why.

Why doesn't 20/20 or Dateline do a story on working conditions in any industry? It's because the majority of corporations are controlled by a very few.

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

I don’t really think the term “slavery” appropriately describes being paid >>$100K to work 40 hr/wk in a well air-conditioned environment. Some jobs suck, but they don’t even start to approach slavery. Let’s all check back in on this when we have actually experienced a hardship of any kind.

I've touched poop by accident while cleaning houses and offices for money.
Does that count?

LOL

 

[Rouelle]

I've touched poop by accident while cleaning houses and offices for money.
Does that count?

LOL

I’ve touched poop while changing diapers without compensation. :/

 

[owlegrad]

The thing that baffles me about the pharmacy profession, is the lack of inaction. If everybody thinks (retail) pharmacy is so horrible.... then why not shame the companies? Do you believe the general public would be excited to know that pharmacist struggle through their jobs, and that the corporations set them up for failure with metrics, and understaffing, etc? Why not take a survey amongst pharmacist, and their view of the profession get an n=300+, then send it to the NYT’s, and make sure you include a question that proves that metrics, and other things are not only poor working conditions, but also, cause patient safety risks. IDK. Just a thought.

This pharmacy shuffle thing is quite the conundrum. Nurses don’t put up with non-sense, and neither do doctors. It’s only pharmacist and I never understood why.

How would shaming the companies work exactly? I suspect the vast majority of Americans would think that their employers treat them much worse and for far less compensation.

Of course maybe I’m wrong and someone could write the jungle for Pharmacy.

 

[JamesL1585]

Hmmm accidental brilliance? I like it... Wanna co-author?

How would shaming the companies work exactly? I suspect the vast majority of Americans would think that their employers treat them much worse and for far less compensation.

Of course maybe I’m wrong and someone could write the jungle for Pharmacy.

 

[Grampus Mud]

How would shaming the companies work exactly? I suspect the vast majority of Americans would think that their employers treat them much worse and for far less compensation.

Of course maybe I’m wrong and someone could write the jungle for Pharmacy.

A far more effective tactic would probably entail changing executive compensation. No more stock option incentive packages. Go back to salary being the most important component of compensation. This would also solve the problem of financial engineering with all these stock buybacks with the proceeds of debt issuance screwing fellow stakeholders in the long term.

Unfortunately, executive compensation now accounts for a scary proportion of US Treasury tax receipts. If those executive stock options go underwater with a market pullback then Treasury coffers run dry. It's why the Fed will freak out if the markets drop. We are trapped in this phony paradigm. No getting out without much pain and discord.

 

[OXYFORALL]

We have a pretty low bar for what's considered slavery.

OP: "I'm a slave!"
*walks away from job with zero repercussions*

Of course I'm pretty sure they gave slaves a meal break and let em take a leak. 🙂

 

[OXYFORALL]

The thing that baffles me about the pharmacy profession, is the lack of inaction. If everybody thinks (retail) pharmacy is so horrible.... then why not shame the companies? Do you believe the general public would be excited to know that pharmacist struggle through their jobs, and that the corporations set them up for failure with metrics, and understaffing, etc? Why not take a survey amongst pharmacist, and their view of the profession get an n=300+, then send it to the NYT’s, and make sure you include a question that proves that metrics, and other things are not only poor working conditions, but also, cause patient safety risks. IDK. Just a thought.

This pharmacy shuffle thing is quite the conundrum. Nurses don’t put up with non-sense, and neither do doctors. It’s only pharmacist and I never understood why.

Because pharmacist are sheep. Working for RAD I would take a lunch, demand to be paid for flu clinics and meetings on my day off, and not work overtime without getting time and a half. When you're the only one standing up for principles you get hammered down eventually.

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

Because pharmacist are sheep. Working for RAD I would take a lunch, demand to be paid for flu clinics and meetings on my day off, and not work overtime without getting time and a half. When you're the only one standing up for principles you get hammered down eventually.

This is pretty accurate.

Outside of the professional context, I've noticed that pharmacists tend to be more... "normal" than other professions, but at work, they turn into total beta-personalities.

I never understood that.

 

[VictorOfHungerGames]

Inherit in any definition of slavery, modern or otherwise, is that the labor you are performing is forced. That is, if you refuse to do the labor demanded of you, you are tortured until you comply, or you are killed. You have no freedom in terms of what work you choose to do to begin with, and you cannot refuse to do the work that is demanded of you without punishment. The person demanding your labor owns you when you are a slave. You may be a slave to wages if the loss of wages results in immediate material harm to your safety (i.e. your only source for covering the cost of basic necessities is from wage income; this is generally not the case in the US as you can often receive basic necessities from charities or government agencies), but that is still distinctly different from being a slave to any particular person/company. Slaves, by definition, do not make wages - you do not receive a carrot when you are a slave, you receive a stick.

Here is a number of reasons why working for CVS is not modern slavery:

1) CVS did not force you to go to school and take out student loans
2) CVS did not force you to apply to work at CVS
3) CVS did not force you to stay and work at CVS only
4) CVS compensates you for your work with money that you are free to do whatever you want with (i.e. CVS does not force you to spend all your wages on CVS-supplied goods)

And by force, I mean, CVS never literally told you you have to work as a pharmacist for them without compensation or they will kill you. That is what slavery is. Anything short of forcing you to perform labor without compensation can be labeled as all sorts of things (undignified, inhumane, unhealthy, unsustainable, unsafe, etc.), but it is simply not accurate to label it as slavery, because it is not forced labor.

Yes, to say that working for cvs is slavery simple is not true by definition... but you can't tell someone how they feel about working for the company. If OP felt like a slave working for them then that's how OP felt. Now, none of us ever having experienced being a slave, this would be difficult to define but I can, to a certain degree, agree with OP's opinion.

No one WANTS to work for cvs. If you're working for cvs, then that's b/c you don't have any other choice or you don't see anything wrong with what they're doing... if you're moral judgement is so jacked up that you're actually okay with what cvs is doing then... i don't know what to tell ya lol i guess just keep on truckin?

Yes, you can leave CVS. CVS is not holding a gun to your head but if you spent the last 4 years trying to be a pharmacist with $100-$200k+ loans and no one else is hiring you at the moment other than cvs... and cvs knows this... and will abuse the heck out of it... = modern day slavery (personal opinion).

 

[wagrxm2000]

Hmm... Didn't realize slaves were in the top 10% in income earned.

It always baffles me when people making well into six figures complain about their easy job.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Is it?

Yes. Wage slavery is the thought that how capitalism tends to force people to work for a third party in order to sustain themselves is a form of slavery. Instead of own-a-slave, it turned into rent-a-slave.

Modern slavery is what is happening to the poor men from Bangladesh that are being forced to build the World Cup stadiums in Qatar.

 

[VictorOfHungerGames]

Yes. Wage slavery is the thought that how capitalism tends to force people to work for a third party in order to sustain themselves is a form of slavery. Instead of own-a-slave, it turned into rent-a-slave.

Modern slavery is what is happening to the poor men from Bangladesh that are being forced to build the World Cup stadiums in Qatar.

Probably the same reason why women were forced into workforce in the early 1900s.

 

[Apotheker2015]

I feel floater jobs are easier than staff/manager. Just verify right and make sure prescriptions are done correctly. Whatever nasty customers you have on that day, you won't see them again. Next day/week, it's a different store, the problem customers aren't your problem anymore. If you can't handle a floating position, you can't handle retail.

Exactly. Floating is the best gig there it. You're not supposed to care. Just do your best. Don't leave a mess behind. If the queue is red by the time you have to leave, make sure all issues are listed somewhere for anyone to pick up where you left off. Simple.

 

[BC_89]

We have a pretty low bar for what's considered slavery.

OP: "I'm a slave!"
*walks away from job with zero repercussions*

First thought: I walk away from job, I get thrown in jail for insubordination and jeopardizing U.S. national security....#ArmyStrong.

Not in your situation OP as far as licensure, but I can relate when your physical and mental well being is pushed beyond the line. I also say congrats on walking when you did.

 

[beautifulrobot]

Yes, to say that working for cvs is slavery simple is not true by definition... but you can't tell someone how they feel about working for the company. If OP felt like a slave working for them then that's how OP felt. Now, none of us ever having experienced being a slave, this would be difficult to define but I can, to a certain degree, agree with OP's opinion.

No one WANTS to work for cvs. If you're working for cvs, then that's b/c you don't have any other choice or you don't see anything wrong with what they're doing... if you're moral judgement is so jacked up that you're actually okay with what cvs is doing then... i don't know what to tell ya lol i guess just keep on truckin?

Yes, you can leave CVS. CVS is not holding a gun to your head but if you spent the last 4 years trying to be a pharmacist with $100-$200k+ loans and no one else is hiring you at the moment other than cvs... and cvs knows this... and will abuse the heck out of it... = modern day slavery (personal opinion).

You're right, I can't tell the OP how to feel, if they felt like they experienced slavery, that's how they felt, and it's not my place to police their feelings.

I think the part that bothers me more so than the use of the term slavery is the mindset that you have no real choice. Even if you have 200k in loans (that you chose to take out in the first place, but I digress), you have a choice, it just isn't an easy one.

 

[PharFromNormal]

In no way am I suggesting the work conditions are desirable for the masses. I would argue that blanket of “no one chooses to work for xyz Corp if they can help it” are probably incorrect, soley based on sheer scale. While it’s probably hard to imagine someone actually liking it, it’s harder to imagine the probability of an absolute statement like that when literally tens of thousands of pharmacists work for them... anyway...

The whole wage slave thing is an interesting topic. One can surely argue that an employer may abuse wage slaves but IMO it’s hard for me to see the arguement that the employer made you the wage slave. The employer didn’t put you into school debt or make you get a new car payment, huge mortgage, etc. They didn’t drive into you that you need to live the middle-upper class lifestyle. That’s your desires and/or your need to feel you need to keep up with the Joneses because you feel that pressure from society, not your employer...

On the other hand, if hypothetically amazon pharmacy takes over and “revolutionizes” pharmacy which cuts the demand of pharmacists by 95% because evil corp has to also change in order to compete... who’s the bad guy?

Is there a forum where I can find former VHS rental clerks saying blockbuster treated them like slaves and didn’t pay them enough or give them enough supporting resources? If not a forum... I wonder if any former blockbuster video store managers or higher level professionals within the company ever felt this way...

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

In no way am I suggesting the work conditions are desirable for the masses. I would argue that blanket of “no one chooses to work for xyz Corp if they can help it” are probably incorrect, soley based on sheer scale. While it’s probably hard to imagine someone actually liking it, it’s harder to imagine the probability of an absolute statement like that when literally tens of thousands of pharmacists work for them... anyway...

The whole wage slave thing is an interesting topic. One can surely argue that an employer may abuse wage slaves but IMO it’s hard for me to see the arguement that the employer made you the wage slave. The employer didn’t put you into school debt or make you get a new car payment, huge mortgage, etc. They didn’t drive into you that you need to live the middle-upper class lifestyle. That’s your desires and/or your need to feel you need to keep up with the Joneses because you feel that pressure from society, not your employer...

On the other hand, if hypothetically amazon pharmacy takes over and “revolutionizes” pharmacy which cuts the demand of pharmacists by 95% because evil corp has to also change in order to compete... who’s the bad guy?

Is there a forum where I can find former VHS rental clerks saying blockbuster treated them like slaves and didn’t pay them enough or give them enough supporting resources? If not a forum... I wonder if any former blockbuster video store managers or higher level professionals within the company ever felt this way...

I was doing it to point out that if a pharmacist claiming slavery is ridiculous, it's equally ridiculous for democratic socialists to use the term wage-slavery.

 

[PharFromNormal]

I was doing it to point out that if a pharmacist claiming slavery is ridiculous, it's equally ridiculous for democratic socialists to use the term wage-slavery.

Oh ok. I like you then. It’s all ridiculous. Using those terms and the working conditions. 😉

 

[BIGVOODOO]

Inherit in any definition of slavery, modern or otherwise, is that the labor you are performing is forced. That is, if you refuse to do the labor demanded of you, you are tortured until you comply, or you are killed. You have no freedom in terms of what work you choose to do to begin with, and you cannot refuse to do the work that is demanded of you without punishment. The person demanding your labor owns you when you are a slave. You may be a slave to wages if the loss of wages results in immediate material harm to your safety (i.e. your only source for covering the cost of basic necessities is from wage income; this is generally not the case in the US as you can often receive basic necessities from charities or government agencies), but that is still distinctly different from being a slave to any particular person/company. Slaves, by definition, do not make wages - you do not receive a carrot when you are a slave, you receive a stick.

Here is a number of reasons why working for CVS is not modern slavery:

1) CVS did not force you to go to school and take out student loans
2) CVS did not force you to apply to work at CVS
3) CVS did not force you to stay and work at CVS only
4) CVS compensates you for your work with money that you are free to do whatever you want with (i.e. CVS does not force you to spend all your wages on CVS-supplied goods)

And by force, I mean, CVS never literally told you you have to work as a pharmacist for them without compensation or they will kill you. That is what slavery is. Anything short of forcing you to perform labor without compensation can be labeled as all sorts of things (undignified, inhumane, unhealthy, unsustainable, unsafe, etc.), but it is simply not accurate to label it as slavery, because it is not forced labor.

I agree with you that there was no DIRECT force to do so and so. However, the system that is currently in place, and by the system, I mean the government and big corps, put that system in a way that minimizes your rights and diminishes them one after another.

It does not have to be "count the pills or I will tie you to the tree and whip your ass" to be slavery, you need to look at the big picture, look at your rights, look if you are compensated fairly to the amount of work you produce. look at your PTO, sick days, overtime pay.

Those who keep saying oh this is not slavery because you don get sold in a market or forced to do a job without pay is taking the word in a very strict and narrow way. Open your mind and eyes and try to go beyond the strict definition of the word. And, if you do not like the word slavery call it anything you like.

The one true fact is that we are HCP with professional degrees, and we get treated like ****. The 140k or whatever does not justify the way we are treated; crappy schedules, no respect from anyone, working like robots until we get replaced by robots, no job stability, mental and physical exhaustion, ...etc. Just explain to me the decency in working 12-14 hrs a day with no break to reset and eat a meal. Just the idea about contemplating holding your piss or going to the bathroom show you a lot. Retail is evil and CVS is the boss of them all.

 

[BIGVOODOO]

Working hard does not mean working 14 hrs a day and commute for 2. It doesn't mean working 50 weeks a year out of 52. The whole system is corrupt. a normal day should consist of working, time to myself, time to my family, and time to gain and learn something new. My wife is French and she works for a French company here in the US, they get 6 weeks a year PTO. Read and educate yourself about the working conditions in the developed world and find out where we rank!!!

 

[PharFromNormal]

I agree with you that there was no DIRECT force to do so and so. However, the system that is currently in place, and by the system, I mean the government and big corps, put that system in a way that minimizes your rights and diminishes them one after another.

It does not have to be "count the pills or I will tie you to the tree and whip your ass" to be slavery, you need to look at the big picture, look at your rights, look if you are compensated fairly to the amount of work you produce. look at your PTO, sick days, overtime pay.

Those who keep saying oh this is not slavery because you don get sold in a market or forced to do a job without pay is taking the word in a very strict and narrow way. Open your mind and eyes and try to go beyond the strict definition of the word. And, if you do not like the word slavery call it anything you like.

The one true fact is that we are HCP with professional degrees, and we get treated like ****. The 140k or whatever does not justify the way we are treated; crappy schedules, no respect from anyone, working like robots until we get replaced by robots, no job stability, mental and physical exhaustion, ...etc. Just explain to me the decency in working 12-14 hrs a day with no break to reset and eat a meal. Just the idea about contemplating holding your piss or going to the bathroom show you a lot. Retail is evil and CVS is the boss of them all.

Working hard does not mean working 14 hrs a day and commute for 2. It doesn't mean working 50 weeks a year out of 52. The whole system is corrupt. a normal day should consist of working, time to myself, time to my family, and time to gain and learn something new. My wife is French and she works for a French company here in the US, they get 6 weeks a year PTO. Read and educate yourself about the working conditions in the developed world and find out where we rank!!!

I salute your desire to improve upon the status quo. I think there are a few larger more general societal-employment issues at large here and then you discuss the pharmacy specific ones. I encourage you to keep fighting... I think you may want to be conscious of your messaging if you are trying to get attention with the general public given the current societal-political climate. Telling a lay person that as a healthcare worker making $140k/year isn’t enough is a tough sell for a few reasons, even if it’s true. 1. It’s a high relative salary vs the general public so it might be hard to find sympathy for the cause 2. Whether true or not, many may perceive “paying a pharmacist more” as leading to higher, not lower, healthcare costs which is in direct conflict of the goals on both sides... I’d recommend finding a different selling point. Maybe patient safety?

 

[BIGVOODOO]

Forms of modern slavery

• Forced labour – any work or services which people are forced to do against their will under the threat of some form of punishment.
• Debt bondage or bonded labour – the world’s most widespread form of slavery, when people borrow money they cannot repay and are required to work to pay off the debt, then losing control over the conditions of both their employment and the debt.
• Human trafficking– involves transporting, recruiting or harbouring people for the purpose of exploitation, using violence, threats or coercion.
• Descent-based slavery – where people are born into slavery because their ancestors were captured and enslaved; they remain in slavery by descent.
• Child slavery – many people often confuse child slavery with child labour, but it is much worse. Whilst child labour is harmful for children and hinders their education and development, child slavery occurs when a child is exploited for someone else’s gain. It can include child trafficking, child soldiers, child marriage and child domestic slavery.
• Forced and early marriage – when someone is married against their will and cannot leave the marriage. Most child marriages can be considered slavery.

Sounds close enough

 

[BIGVOODOO]

I salute your desire to improve upon the status quo. I think there are a few larger more general societal-employment issues at large here and then you discuss the pharmacy specific ones. I encourage you to keep fighting... I think you may want to be conscious of your messaging if you are trying to get attention with the general public given the current societal-political climate. Telling a lay person that as a healthcare worker making $140k/year isn’t enough is a tough sell for a few reasons, even if it’s true. 1. It’s a high relative salary vs the general public so it might be hard to find sympathy for the cause 2. Whether true or not, many may perceive “paying a pharmacist more” as leading to higher, not lower, healthcare costs which is in direct conflict of the goals on both sides... I’d recommend finding a different selling point. Maybe patient safety?

I agree with you!

I am more of venting and blowing steam now. Thanks for the tip!!

 

[RxPreceptor]

Just to elaborate a bit more on bonded slavery...this is very common for new graduates who have debt anywhere from 100-300k. Albeit this is temporary (5-10 years) and depends on many living expenses (location, housing/rent vs living off of relatives, automobiles, etc.). The lack of jobs (many with minimum 5+ years experience) does not help either.

After living expenses and monthly debt payments, retail/chain pharmacy is bonded slavery in a sense that you are being overworked (devalued labor) & responsible (license) for an unrealistic amount of work and regulatory requirements which you can not fulfill without working off the clock and/or forgoing basic physiological needs...working, just erasing debt/not accumulating revenue, & doing just enough to stay alive to work tomorrow

Not opposed to joining/starting a union to address these industrial revolution-esque working conditions...APhA does not give a **** or is just too indecisive. Just anticipating the day I somehow manage to get my arm cut off by an automation unit (the modern day cotton gin...in no way am I inferring this is anywhere near the degree of pre civil war slavery as others have discussed already)

 

[gwarm01]

Hmm... Didn't realize slaves were in the top 10% in income earned.

It always baffles me when people making well into six figures complain about their easy job.

Too many people lack perspective. I understand feeling frustrated with the working conditions and disrespect after spending all that time in school. Anyone who graduated in the past 10-15 years had to deal with the disappointment of discovering being a pharmacist was not what we were promised, and I understand that too. I just can't find sympathy for people who whine about how unfair it is and act like they are powerless in this situation. We all have options and we all have a level of mobility that your average person could only dream of.

Since becoming a pharmacist I have had a lift of luxury and leisure, lived on both coasts of the USA, traveled internationally, saved for retirement, and have had an extremely fulfilling professional life. The cost was a little bit of stress and a few hard choices, but I made it work and I'm nothing special. I certainly didn't graduate top of my class.

 

[BenJammin]

I have zero sympathy for new grads graduating with debt. You're a pharmacist who is about to make $120k a year. Time to be an adult and pay your bills.

 

[johnpharm01]

Slavery, no. Inhumane working condition, YES. At least you didn't stay long enough to get conditioned to accept these working conditions as normal like some of our colleagues on this thread. What''s sad is to see how many posters on this thread think its ok to be treated poorly and complaining about it is whining because of the pay. So for 200k a year should I let angry customers kick me in the crotch? 300k body blows and face shots? Amazingly there are some good jobs out there as pharmacists (not many) and I would be pouring my effort into getting one. I work at a successful independent now. The customers, my coworkers, and my boss treat me great. I get to use the bathroom at will and get a lunch break. I am valued. The store manager has absolutely nothing to do with the pharmacy. I can fill my rxs accurately and actually help the customers.

 

[wagrxm2000]

Too many people lack perspective. I understand feeling frustrated with the working conditions and disrespect after spending all that time in school. Anyone who graduated in the past 10-15 years had to deal with the disappointment of discovering being a pharmacist was not what we were promised, and I understand that too. I just can't find sympathy for people who whine about how unfair it is and act like they are powerless in this situation. We all have options and we all have a level of mobility that your average person could only dream of.

Since becoming a pharmacist I have had a lift of luxury and leisure, lived on both coasts of the USA, traveled internationally, saved for retirement, and have had an extremely fulfilling professional life. The cost was a little bit of stress and a few hard choices, but I made it work and I'm nothing special. I certainly didn't graduate top of my class.

Man if that's not slavery I don't know what is...ha

If people could only learn how to do their job efficiently, they would like it more.

When I joined this profession, I never even thought that 18 years later I'd be making this much doing a job that is so easy to do. There is absolutely no physical work, I'm simply here to help out my customers. At the end of the day, I go home feeling fulfilled.

 

[owlegrad]

Omg my eyes are opened. All this time I though I was simply working a high paying job with somewhat crappy working conditions. I now realize I was in fact enslaved. The chains that kept me bound were just considered so socially acceptable that I could’nt see it. Hallelujah, I was blind but now I see.

How could I have been so blind that I couldn’t see that middle managers are the modern whip-holders and that the CEOs are basically the plantation owners?! It’s so obvious.

Thank God that there are no real slaves left that might think we lack a little prespective on this.

So how do we throw off these chains of oppression and rise up against our former masters? Does the revolution have to be bloodless or can we make the streets run green with their blood money?


Kudos for the unscourced information which kinda sorta agrees with your rediculous position though. Looks very legit.

 

[johnpharm01]

So how do we throw off these chains of oppression and rise up against our former masters? Does the revolution have to be bloodless or can we make the streets run green with their blood money?

Take the underground railroad to the clinical jobs promised in pharmacy school.

 

[BMBiology]

What ever happened to self responsibility?

If you didn’t work at CVS or at least hang around in a CVS waiting area for a few hours before you decided to go to pharmacy school, then that is your fault. Take some responsibility.

You don’t protest or claim to be a “slave” just because things didn’t work out as planned. You made an uninformed career decision. You just wanted that shinny doctorate degree. That is your fault.

The real world is mean and nasty. Deal with it.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Mambo#5]

Inherit in any definition of slavery, modern or otherwise, is that the labor you are performing is forced. That is, if you refuse to do the labor demanded of you, you are tortured until you comply, or you are killed. You have no freedom in terms of what work you choose to do to begin with, and you cannot refuse to do the work that is demanded of you without punishment. The person demanding your labor owns you when you are a slave. You may be a slave to wages if the loss of wages results in immediate material harm to your safety (i.e. your only source for covering the cost of basic necessities is from wage income; this is generally not the case in the US as you can often receive basic necessities from charities or government agencies), but that is still distinctly different from being a slave to any particular person/company. Slaves, by definition, do not make wages - you do not receive a carrot when you are a slave, you receive a stick.

Here is a number of reasons why working for CVS is not modern slavery:

1) CVS did not force you to go to school and take out student loans
2) CVS did not force you to apply to work at CVS
3) CVS did not force you to stay and work at CVS only
4) CVS compensates you for your work with money that you are free to do whatever you want with (i.e. CVS does not force you to spend all your wages on CVS-supplied goods)

And by force, I mean, CVS never literally told you you have to work as a pharmacist for them without compensation or they will kill you. That is what slavery is. Anything short of forcing you to perform labor without compensation can be labeled as all sorts of things (undignified, inhumane, unhealthy, unsustainable, unsafe, etc.), but it is simply not accurate to label it as slavery, because it is not forced labor.

Your right. No one is forced per se. There are just so many possible employers to chose from in this oligopolistic market.

 

[rph3664]

I’ve touched poop while changing diapers without compensation. :/

Heck, I've touched poop while wiping my own butt, or cleaning my cat's litterbox.

 

[rph3664]

First thought: I walk away from job, I get thrown in jail for insubordination and jeopardizing U.S. national security....#ArmyStrong.

Not in your situation OP as far as licensure, but I can relate when your physical and mental well being is pushed beyond the line. I also say congrats on walking when you did.

I had a job that I realized was literally killing me, and it was a strange situation because I worked with some of the nicest people you could ever meet, at a hospital that had competent personnel and very high morale. I now manage my portfolio and run an online resale business out of my home. No, I don't make 6 figures any more but I get by.

When I was living in that other town, one of the maintenance people in the complex where I lived said that he once had a job that paid 90K a year, and after he had his 3rd heart attack, his doctor said, "You will not be going back to that job." He replied, "How am I supposed to support my family?" and the doctor answered, "You can't do that if you're dead." IDK what he did; I got the impression that it was some kind of high-pressure industrial job. So, he quit that job, moved to this small town that had much lower living expenses, and even though his wife had to go back to work (something she had considered doing anyway), they were all much happier, and he was healthier too.

 

[stevephhs016]

What ever happened to self responsibility?

If you didn’t work at CVS or at least hang around in a CVS waiting area for a few hours before you decided to go to pharmacy school, then that is your fault. Take some responsibility.

You don’t protest or claim to be a “slave” just because things didn’t work out as planned. You made an uninformed career decision. You just wanted that shinny doctorate degree. That is your fault.

The real world is mean and nasty. Deal with it.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

10 years ago, the industry wasn't as ****ty as it is now. It's the exponentially worsening of our careers year after year due to over supply-demand. Back then, at least most pharmacists were happier, not running all the ****ing place due to understaffing, dealing with metrics all over the ****ing place. We actually had some time to do actual clinical work.

 

[BMBiology]

10 years ago, the industry wasn't as ****ty as it is now. It's the exponentially worsening of our careers year after year due to over supply-demand. Back then, at least most pharmacists were happier, not running all the ****ing place due to understaffing, dealing with metrics all over the ****ing place. We actually had some time to do actual clinical work.

Where have you been? Retail has always been a crappy place to work. I knew that as a clerk. I knew that as an intern. I certainly know that as a pharmacist.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[RxPreceptor]

Just to be clear, it's more like an economic prison sentence vs. actual slavery for new graduates only - those of whom are economically obligated to take higher paying chain positions from ever increasing student loan debts. Well aware that retail was/is a "crappy" high stress position (just trying to quietly serve out my sentence/pay my dues whilst opportunities arise).

 

[zelman]

If a couple more pharmacy schools open, we can just open self-service pharmacies and all the unemployed pharmacists can DIY their own meds.

 

[Momus]

Meanwhile in techs Dealing with recruiters - Bogleheads.org 😵

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

Heck, I've touched poop while wiping my own butt, or cleaning my cat's litterbox.

Accidentally touching your own dirty b hole is the truest form of oppression

 

[WVUPharm2007]

What ever happened to self responsibility?

If you didn’t work at CVS or at least hang around in a CVS waiting area for a few hours before you decided to go to pharmacy school, then that is your fault. Take some responsibility.

You don’t protest or claim to be a “slave” just because things didn’t work out as planned. You made an uninformed career decision. You just wanted that shinny doctorate degree. That is your fault.

The real world is mean and nasty. Deal with it.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Back in the day when I entered school, they were giving pharmacists cars, paying off their student loans, and treated them like rockstars. With plenty of tech hours to go around and nobody knew WTF a PCQ call was.

I'm not really upset though...I actually don't hate my job.

I honestly feel bad for you youngins' that didn't get to experience the good old days. Just the inkling that you were thinking about looking for a new job opened you up to a nice dinner from a line of suitors. Steak, seafood, Cheesecake Factory...whatever. CVS, Wags, Rite Aid, Fruth, Kroger, Walmart, Target...they'd all have little free lunch seminars at school all the time trying to get you to come work for them. Chick-fil-A and Panera like once a week.

Nowadays, you are lucky if you get a "we went another direction" automailer from HR people.

 

[Modest_anteater]

The same pedophiles own the media. Why doesn't 20/20 or Dateline do a story on working conditions in any industry? It's because the majority of corporations are controlled by a very few.

"Same Pedophiles that own the media"

Wow. Man calm down. You made me spit out some of my coffee. Let me guess. next you are going to be talking about (((globalists)))? Dude this isn't stormfront.org or some neonazi website. You need to relax with the harsh language. We don't discriminate based on religion or someone's sexual paraphilia.

Of course I'm pretty sure they gave slaves a meal break and let em take a leak. 🙂

I agree that calling working as a pharmacist salary is hyperbole. Instead of calling it slavery instead say "I failed to make good decisions when I was deciding on what to go to school for"

 

[Modest_anteater]

Back in the day when I entered school, they were giving pharmacists cars, paying off their student loans, and treated them like rockstars. With plenty of tech hours to go around and nobody knew WTF a PCQ call was.

I'm not really upset though...I actually don't hate my job.

I honestly feel bad for you youngins' that didn't get to experience the good old days. Just the inkling that you were thinking about looking for a new job opened you up to a nice dinner from a line of suitors. Steak, seafood, Cheesecake Factory...whatever. CVS, Wags, Rite Aid, Fruth, Kroger, Walmart, Target...they'd all have little free lunch seminars at school all the time trying to get you to come work for them. Chick-fil-A and Panera like once a week.

Nowadays, you are lucky if you get a "we went another direction" automailer from HR people.

Well, I can't say I'm not jealous of what you got to experience but I imagine what I experience will be better than what the next generation of pharmacy student's experience.