Post Bacs are not pro-URM. Thoughts?

[Dr. Ozymandias]

Besides SIU's MedPrep and the UC-Consortium which are for academic enhancers and not career-changers, it seems post-bac programs are not URM-friendly, which is interesting considering the whole point of post-bac programs is to help get people into medical school.

My reasoning:

1) Post-bacs are only eligible for $12,500 in Federal student loans, and COA is often $40K and above. The average URM is not middle/upper class and may not have the credit or cosigner to take on private loans. Working during school is not allowed as these programs are full-time.

2) Although they say the minimum accepted GPA is 3.0-3.2, the average accepted GPA is 3.7+ (Scripps, JHU, Bryn Mawr, Goucher, here's looking at you). Statistically many URMs have lower GPAs and standardized test scores.

3) Post-bac programs aren't under the AAMC umbrella. It seems AAMC has been actively trying to get medical schools to recruit URMs. But there's no accountability or drive for the same in post-bac programs, meaning the students who get in, already ahead of most URMs, get another leg up in the med school admissions process by going to these formal programs.

I'm saying all this to say - it seems to be harder to get into a post-bac as a URM than is it to get accepted into medical school.

Has anyone gotten into or gone through a post-bac? Experiences? Thoughts? How diverse was your class?

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[deleted480308]

What do you propose?

 

[tammyp]

Do a post bacc or an SMP at a public university.

 

[Dr. Ozymandias]

What do you propose?

HBCUs opening up post-bacs with linkages?

Truly evaluating candidates holistically instead of just paying lip service to the idea?

Being transparent about the % of ORM and higher SES students that comprise their small post-bac classes year after year?

Equal access to quality education from pre-K on up regardless of race or socioeconomic background is my ideal solution, but closing the achievement gap seems to be an insurmountable task.

 

[lostmed]

Besides SIU's MedPrep and the UC-Consortium which are for academic enhancers and not career-changers, it seems post-bac programs are not URM-friendly, which is interesting considering the whole point of post-bac programs is to help get people into medical school.

My reasoning:

1) Post-bacs are only eligible for $12,500 in Federal student loans, and COA is often $40K and above. The average URM is not middle/upper class and may not have the credit or cosigner to take on private loans. Working during school is not allowed as these programs are full-time.

2) Although they say the minimum accepted GPA is 3.0-3.2, the average accepted GPA is 3.7+ (Scripps, JHU, Bryn Mawr, Goucher, here's looking at you). Statistically many URMs have lower GPAs and standardized test scores.

3) Post-bac programs aren't under the AAMC umbrella. It seems AAMC has been actively trying to get medical schools to recruit URMs.

I'm saying all this to say - it seems to be harder to get into a post-bac as a URM than is it to get accepted into medical school.

Has anyone gotten into or gone through a post-bac? Experiences? Thoughts? How diverse was your class?

I just finished applying to Scripps and am freaked out. Last year I was rejected (pretty sure for my lack of math) so I’m reapplying. Also want to apply to USC and CSUF. I live in SoCal so these are all accessible to me albeit expensive (CSUF less expensive since public). I’m avtually really worried about paying for these programs. They are DEFINITELY not accessible for lower income people like myself and that’s terrifying. I’ve also noticed majority of these programs don’t many URMs when you look at their matriculating classes. The only one I can think of that does is Charles Drew.

 

[deleted480308]

HBCUs opening up post-bacs with linkages?

Truly evaluating candidates holistically instead of just paying lip service to the idea?

Being transparent about the % of ORM and higher SES students that comprise their small post-bac classes year after year?

Equal access to quality education from pre-K on up regardless of race or socioeconomic background is my ideal solution, but closing the achievement gap seems to be an insurmountable task.

I don’t think anyone is stopping hbcus from opening programs but These programs cost money so I don’t know that that will change your concerns with financial access

“Holistic evaluation” unless you specifically mean urm preference is unlikely to change anything as there are plenty of people from other demographics that also havw interesting life stories and hardships to discuss when getting “holistic”. At the end of the day, it’s a competition and an applicant needs to bring numbers to the table.

I like transparency too but I don’t see what that would “solve” here

I think better primary/secondary education is a fabulous idea and suggest you look into advocacy for school voucher programs that allow parent’s to apply the govt funds used for their child to private education of their choice

 

[Dr. Ozymandias]

I just finished applying to Scripps and am freaked out. Last year I was rejected (pretty sure for my lack of math) so I’m reapplying. Also want to apply to USC and CSUF. I live in SoCal so these are all accessible to me albeit expensive (CSUF less expensive since public). I’m avtually really worried about paying for these programs. They are DEFINITELY not accessible for lower income people like myself and that’s terrifying. I’ve also noticed majority of these programs don’t many URMs when you look at their matriculating classes. The only one I can think of that does is Charles Drew.

Check out San Francisco State's post-bac.

Mission (from their website)
The short-term goal of the Pre-Health Post-Bac Programs is to guide participants through the entire preparation and application process so that they will be successful applicants to U.S. health professional schools. The three long-term goals of the programs are: 1) to help train professionals that know how to conduct balanced lives and work with each other in a cooperative rather than competitive manner, 2) to contribute to social justice by training a diverse population of participants so that the pool of healthcare providers better matches the pool of patients, thus lessening the access, treatment and outcome disparities that plague our healthcare system, and 3) to further contribute to social justice by providing socioeconomically disadvantaged participants a career path that provides them and their families with greater socioeconomic resources."

Also, you can always take post-bac classes at UCLA extension or community college classes, then apply to the UC-Consortium.

 

[WhiteCoatWonder]

I don’t think anyone is stopping hbcus from opening programs but These programs cost money so I don’t know that that will change your concerns with financial access

“Holistic evaluation” unless you specifically mean urm preference is unlikely to change anything as there are plenty of people from other demographics that also havw interesting life stories and hardships to discuss when getting “holistic”. At the end of the day, it’s a competition and an applicant needs to bring numbers to the table.

I like transparency too but I don’t see what that would “solve” here

I think better primary/secondary education is a fabulous idea and suggest you look into advocacy for school voucher programs that allow parent’s to apply the govt funds used for their child to private education of their choice

second this, especially the bold, multi-URM M4 here.

ill say this carefully: as much as id like to see more brown colleagues and superiors in my periphery, on the path that ive walked, i have not appreciated the "level of expectation" that ive seen from many of my co-URM aspirants. in medical school, this dissipated quite a bit as we got knee deep into the new levels of cray, but i attended a post-bac as well and the level of what i perceived as neediness on behalf of many of the minority students was unreal. sample comments, IRL:

"you dont help us enough" (to the program director who wasnt organizing "enough" formal study sessions)
"why do they expect...." (re: medical school entrance/score requirements)
"cant you just help me do..." (from people asking for some type of tangible help/support from me, once they found out i was in medical school. as if i could somehow help them find their motivation)

please understand that i know, statistically and anecdotally, that it is an UPHILL BATTLE for minorities pursuing the professional fields. it just is. however, as my interpretation of this comment suggests, *we* also have to A.) realistically assess our own personal situations (academic history, eligibility, pattern of choices) and B.) do better (dont expect anything from human being. ever. there are no free lunches).

ill address your list here:
1. will admit that im not sure about the federal student loan data on this one. i worked full time in my previous field while attending my post bac. not allowed? not happening.
2. increase your GPA as best you can, increase your test scores as best you can, do something shiny on the side and you will stand out in contrast to these stats
3. eh, ok?
4. my post bac experience became what i made it. thank God, i got in and busted my butt. nobody "helped" me do it (not talking about lack of support here, shout out to my people, im talking about handouts), and im happy about that. made me a little more tough and better prepared for the non-academic rigors of med school. i was at an HBCU and everybody in my class was some version of brown.

 

[Dr. Ozymandias]

There are no free lunches.

Thank you for that handout. It was very insightful. Fortunately there are still people out there who want to help students who qualify for the free breakfast program so they can try to get a seat at the lunch table.

 

[WhiteCoatWonder]

as ive always appreciated the free and public exchange of ideas here on SDN, im including a private message to me from OP, for those who may be considered even less informed than i. hope this helps.

Sounds like you're not low SES. So let me break it down to you. 1 year Federal loan is $12,500. That's it. For those blessed enough to be accepted to 1 year full-time (as in no work allowed) post-bacs, COA is $50+, estimated $39K tuition. The diversity of the class is often <1 URM in my experience. Other options include tuition remission working full-time while doing a post-bac are 2-3 years plus 1 year of applications.

I'm very curious which HBCU besides SIU and the UC-Consortium has a post-bac, unless you did an SMP. I am also very saddened you think "help" equates to "handouts" and you think so little of your URM classmates/colleagues who may have needed tutoring or motivation or even a kind word, or a shoulder to cry on, but you do you.

Everybody in this world needs help. Nobody makes it on their own. Case in point, this forum exists to help students become doctors. Doctors exist to help people heal. Maybe I'm just naive, but your post rubbed me the wrong way.

I really hope you don't look down on your patients - if you serve the "underserved" (code for "poor people of color" - the same way you seem to look down upon your fellow colleagues/former classmates.

Best of luck to you

 

[Dr. Ozymandias]

I don't see the point of sharing my PM considering you failed to respond to my critique.

We can agree to disagree civilly on our motivations in pursuing medicine and what constitutes helping versus enabling those born without privilege and POC who are the majority of that demographic.

Your intention in posting here must come from seeking external validation I truly hope you find.

For now, I'm going to hit the ignore button, since you ignored my PM to do...what exactly? I'm still not clear. Regardless, this is off-topic and moot.

 

[lostmed]

Check out San Francisco State's post-bac.

Mission (from their website)
The short-term goal of the Pre-Health Post-Bac Programs is to guide participants through the entire preparation and application process so that they will be successful applicants to U.S. health professional schools. The three long-term goals of the programs are: 1) to help train professionals that know how to conduct balanced lives and work with each other in a cooperative rather than competitive manner, 2) to contribute to social justice by training a diverse population of participants so that the pool of healthcare providers better matches the pool of patients, thus lessening the access, treatment and outcome disparities that plague our healthcare system, and 3) to further contribute to social justice by providing socioeconomically disadvantaged participants a career path that provides them and their families with greater socioeconomic resources."

Also, you can always take post-bac classes at UCLA extension or community college classes, then apply to the UC-Consortium.

Yeah Scripps needed their application in first so there’s is already done. I’m applying to a few Cal State programs. I do know about UCLA extension courses (Graduated 2016) and Bay Area schools but I’m trying not to move to an expensive city on top of paying for an expensive program if that makes sense. I’ll more than likely apply anyway and try to gather as much funding as possible but this is definitely a challenge. There is one at Cal State San Marcos that has evening classes as to allow students to work full time so that’s also a possibility.

 

[CUatthefinishline]

Besides SIU's MedPrep and the UC-Consortium which are for academic enhancers and not career-changers, it seems post-bac programs are not URM-friendly, which is interesting considering the whole point of post-bac programs is to help get people into medical school.

My reasoning:

1) Post-bacs are only eligible for $12,500 in Federal student loans, and COA is often $40K and above. The average URM is not middle/upper class and may not have the credit or cosigner to take on private loans. Working during school is not allowed as these programs are full-time.

2) Although they say the minimum accepted GPA is 3.0-3.2, the average accepted GPA is 3.7+ (Scripps, JHU, Bryn Mawr, Goucher, here's looking at you). Statistically many URMs have lower GPAs and standardized test scores.

3) Post-bac programs aren't under the AAMC umbrella. It seems AAMC has been actively trying to get medical schools to recruit URMs. But there's no accountability or drive for the same in post-bac programs, meaning the students who get in, already ahead of most URMs, get another leg up in the med school admissions process by going to these formal programs.

I'm saying all this to say - it seems to be harder to get into a post-bac as a URM than is it to get accepted into medical school.

Has anyone gotten into or gone through a post-bac? Experiences? Thoughts? How diverse was your class?

You bring up some interesting points and things I never thought about. In my naivete, I assumed that a lot of postbac programs would be geared towards URMs & have more representation of them than even med schools do. I guess I attended an postbac of sorts, but I used it mainly as degree program for my masters. My experience was a little different I guess because there were quite a few URMs in the program (not just the "oh, there's another black guy" kind of diversity) and people from all over the US, too.

1) (Just realized that you are probably referring to postbacs that are not degree granting, so this may seem irrelevant; this is definitely an issue. How do people pay for postbacs then?) It was mad expensive for me personally, but I also was able to support myself & a separate family household on federal loans for a year in the South & Midwest so I can't talk too bad about it. It's my debt and I needed the money. My program was fairly cheap from what I have seen in other programs. I entered a program that was more flexible, actually gave me a degree, and had a lower cost of tuition.
2) Many people came into the program with a lower GPA than me & I was around the 3.3-3.6 range. I think they stayed true to that 3.0 minimum and may have dipped lower.
3) I didn't know that, but it kind of makes sense. The AAMC might not see postbacs as viable ways to increase diversity or may be leaving it up to schools to utilize them or not for that purpose, but maybe they should have more involvement with those.

I like transparency too but I don’t see what that would “solve” here

I think better primary/secondary education is a fabulous idea and suggest you look into advocacy for school voucher programs that allow parent’s to apply the govt funds used for their child to private education of their choice

1) Transparency can be helpful so that people on both sides can see where resources are being allocated. This helps to evaluate if a program is meeting it's goals, needs to change it's mission, or if there are better ways of doing things.
2) Many people like/dislike the voucher approach to primary/secondary education for personal/political reasons, but that does not necessarily address the OP's issue with postbacs. Also, this assumes that the OP or others that agree with them are not doing what they can on the primary/secondary school level. You can tackle issues from a multitude of different angles without invalidating either one.

 

[deleted480308]

You bring up some interesting points and things I never thought about. In my naivete, I assumed that a lot of postbac programs would be geared towards URMs & have more representation of them than even med schools do. I guess I attended an postbac of sorts, but I used it mainly as degree program for my masters. My experience was a little different I guess because there were quite a few URMs in the program (not just the "oh, there's another black guy" kind of diversity) and people from all over the US, too.

1) (Just realized that you are probably referring to postbacs that are not degree granting, so this may seem irrelevant; this is definitely an issue. How do people pay for postbacs then?) It was mad expensive for me personally, but I also was able to support myself & a separate family household on federal loans for a year in the South & Midwest so I can't talk too bad about it. It's my debt and I needed the money. My program was fairly cheap from what I have seen in other programs. I entered a program that was more flexible, actually gave me a degree, and had a lower cost of tuition.
2) Many people came into the program with a lower GPA than me & I was around the 3.3-3.6 range. I think they stayed true to that 3.0 minimum and may have dipped lower.
3) I didn't know that, but it kind of makes sense. The AAMC might not see postbacs as viable ways to increase diversity or may be leaving it up to schools to utilize them or not for that purpose, but maybe they should have more involvement with those.



1) Transparency can be helpful so that people on both sides can see where resources are being allocated. This helps to evaluate if a program is meeting it's goals, needs to change it's mission, or if there are better ways of doing things.
2) Many people like/dislike the voucher approach to primary/secondary education for personal/political reasons, but that does not necessarily address the OP's issue with postbacs. Also, this assumes that the OP or others that agree with them are not doing what they can on the primary/secondary school level. You can tackle issues from a multitude of different angles without invalidating either one.

The notion of vouchers does address their listed #2 concern with many urm applicants having lower stats as that trend can be more effectively resolved by addressing earlier educational differences than ignoring those differences later

 

[Mt Kilimanjaro]

Besides SIU's MedPrep and the UC-Consortium which are for academic enhancers and not career-changers, it seems post-bac programs are not URM-friendly, which is interesting considering the whole point of post-bac programs is to help get people into medical school.

My reasoning:

1) Post-bacs are only eligible for $12,500 in Federal student loans, and COA is often $40K and above. The average URM is not middle/upper class and may not have the credit or cosigner to take on private loans. Working during school is not allowed as these programs are full-time.

2) Although they say the minimum accepted GPA is 3.0-3.2, the average accepted GPA is 3.7+ (Scripps, JHU, Bryn Mawr, Goucher, here's looking at you). Statistically many URMs have lower GPAs and standardized test scores.

3) Post-bac programs aren't under the AAMC umbrella. It seems AAMC has been actively trying to get medical schools to recruit URMs. But there's no accountability or drive for the same in post-bac programs, meaning the students who get in, already ahead of most URMs, get another leg up in the med school admissions process by going to these formal programs.

I'm saying all this to say - it seems to be harder to get into a post-bac as a URM than is it to get accepted into medical school.

Has anyone gotten into or gone through a post-bac? Experiences? Thoughts? How diverse was your class?

You’re kind of equating “low SES, marginally competitive applicant” with “URM.” Former group definitely has a harder time getting into post bacc/med school regardless of race.

 

[suspiriadeprofundis]

I'm a postbacc and URM at an "elite" program (e.g., Goucher/BM) and I would agree strongly. I don't know if it's harder to gain admission to one of these elite programs as a URM. I think a compelling argument could be made for the opposite actually, but yes if you're talking about the structural and systemic challenges that would make a URM competitive in the application process.

Secondly, once you're here don't expect to have an easy go of it in class as the only URM in your class. People in my program were incredibly nasty to me and frequently ignored me when I spoke up to ask a question or tried to participate in small groups. These programs with prestigious linkages are basically affirmative action for America's ruling class and they resent you even being here, so why should they be friendly and help you. They won't ever show this side to you especially not in front of other people. I know I didn't have any sense of the prejudice and discrimination I would experience when I interviewed. Sure, I'm one person from one year, but let me say it's curious how there's only ever 1 maybe 2 URMs per class of ~30 in my program. Not sure what other people's experiences have been, but I would guess not that different. I'm miserable here and it's not just the grueling workload. It's my peers who have really been terrible and unfriendly to me.

Also, the program director is a total ego-maniac and treats students like disposable employees, when in fact they work for us since we pay their salaries. If you want a tony postbacc I say do factor in the undergrad reputation. In my program, everyone has a chip on their shoulder because the parent institution is a glorified junior college. I think it might be a bit more relaxed at a place like Hopkins where people didn't feel like they had to prove themselves all of the time. Plus, going to an elite postbacc at an unknown institution with poor funding means dilapidated facilities and persistent status anxiety. Weigh your options carefully and if you don't get in, don't sweat it. Get the credits elsewhere and move on.

 

[YourMD]

Check out Drexel DPMS.

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[967038]

Completely agree that Post-bacs aren't URM friendly and it's a true shame! Thanks for making this post and truly hope this can start changing in the next few decades. It's sad since many of the top postbacs are at institutions that claim they value diversity. The top postbacs often also serve as access points to med schools and making admissions classist, elitist, and the postbacc experience toxic for URM is disappointing.

I agree with @YourMD's advice. For URMs, it is imperative that we know our worth and what we can take. It doesn't mean not trying to get into the top ranked programs. But if you can see the signs and tell that it could be toxic, sometimes that means we dodged a bullet or having to spend time recovery from awful experiences which is kind of wasted time in some respects. We have so much going on in our lives and we don't have to put ourselves in toxic environments where we know we will be harmed. If you know what I mean, then you know.

That's the position I'm currently in. There are lots of 'top' programs that are also URM friendly and personally I've made the hard decision of taking that route. I'm committed to placing myself in environments that are invested in my success and wellbeing. This is something that I had to learn the hard way through choosing an undergrad. I'm hoping to not make that same mistake of following the money and 'easiest/all set up for you' path yet toxic pwi path for masters, postbacc, and med school.

For my fellow URMs with marginalized identities, I will you the best of luck! Even when the system is set up against us (like postbacs), we will prevail as we always do!