Preempting the inevitible rankings thread

[Deferoxamine]

For those who care (just in time for a new application season...), U.S. News and World Report has the new Internal Medicine rankings out, this time listing the Top 16. Take these with as many grains of salt as you need, but surely it's that time for some ego-stroking . Looks like a few minor shakeups from the previous lists:

U.S. News 2012 Internal Medicine Department Rankings

1.) "Harvard" - MGH/Brigham/BIDMC?
tie.) Hopkins
3.) UCSF
4.) Duke
5.) UPenn
6.) Michigan
7.) Wash U. St. Louis
8.) U of Washington
9.) Columbia
10.) Yale
11.) Stanford
12.) UCLA
13.) Vanderbilt
tie.) UT Southwestern
15.) Pittsburgh
16.) Northwestern

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[DrVanNostran]

For those who care (just in time for a new application season...), U.S. News and World Report has the new Internal Medicine rankings out, this time listing the Top 16. Take these with as many grains of salt as you need, but surely it's that time for some ego-stroking . Looks like a few minor shakeups from the previous lists:

U.S. News 2012 Internal Medicine Department Rankings

1.) "Harvard" - MGH/Brigham/BIDMC?
tie.) Hopkins
3.) UCSF
4.) Duke
5.) UPenn
6.) Michigan
7.) Wash U. St. Louis
8.) U of Washington
9.) Columbia
10.) Yale
11.) Stanford
12.) UCLA
13.) Vanderbilt
tie.) UT Southwestern
15.) Pittsburgh
16.) Northwestern

Thanks for the list Def.

Now, us 3rd years demand that you guys add in 17-30!

 

[jdh71]

Thanks for the list Def.

Now, us 3rd years demand that you guys add in 17-30!

 

[Instatewaiter]

For those who care (just in time for a new application season...), U.S. News and World Report has the new Internal Medicine rankings out, this time listing the Top 16. Take these with as many grains of salt as you need, but surely it's that time for some ego-stroking . Looks like a few minor shakeups from the previous lists:

U.S. News 2012 Internal Medicine Department Rankings

1.) "Harvard" - MGH/Brigham/BIDMC?
tie.) Hopkins
3.) UCSF
4.) Duke
5.) UPenn
6.) Michigan
7.) Wash U. St. Louis
8.) U of Washington
9.) Columbia
10.) Yale
11.) Stanford
12.) UCLA
13.) Vanderbilt
tie.) UT Southwestern
15.) Pittsburgh
16.) Northwestern

These rankings are a bit off. While Harvard's medicine program is very strong, not all harvard programs are the same. BIDMC does not deserve to be lumped in with MGH/B&W.

So really the tippy-top include The General, The Brigham and Hopkins (see hopkins is not pretentious enough to put "the" before their name) and probably UCSF.


Other excellent programs (ie probably in that 17-30 range:
UNC
UAB
Emory
UVA
?maryland
OHSU
Baylor
Iowa
Chicago
+/- mayo and cleveland clinic

 

[DrVanNostran]

Why not, I'm bored

17. Cornell
18. UChicago
19. NYU
20. MSSM
21. UCSD
22. UAB
23. Wisconsin
24. UNC
25. Virginia
26. Mayo
27. Emory
28. Boston U
29. OHSU
30. Colorodo
31. Baylor

 

[jdh71]

I want to play too!! In no particular rank order . . .

Yale
Cornell
Virginia
UNC
Emory
UAB
UChicago
Wisconsin
Minnesota
Mayo
Iowa
Baylor
OHSU
UCSD

 

[gold&black2005]

Oh, jdh, yale was already on the list, haha. Anyway, just throwing it out there, but why is UChicago getting no US News love? They (along w/ Cornell) would srem to be two of the most egregious omissions...

(disclaimer: looking at last year's rankings, mayo, iowa and emory were all listed, so at least USN has acknowledged them of late...)

 

[jdh71]

Oh, jdh, yale was already on the list, haha. Anyway, just throwing it out there, but why is UChicago getting no US News love? They (along w/ Cornell) would srem to be two of the most egregious omissions...

(disclaimer: looking at last year's rankings, mayo, iowa and emory were all listed, so at least USN has acknowledged them of late...)

I did that for you Hoping you'd see that because that where it really belongs. I tease because I love.

I was hoping for more monkey knife fight.

The USN&WR rankings are largely based on MONEY going into the hospital, which can very year to year depending on who left and who stayed and who got a new grant.

 

[DrVanNostran]

Random question for anyone.

How many patients does an intern typically carry? On a few program websites, they say 10 and it seems like they see those ten patients in 2 hours then have rounds with the attending?

10 notes scares the crap out of me lol. I've been doing 7-8 on SURGERY, which has been a rush.

What do you guys usually see interns doing, 5/2 hours, 10/2.5 hours?

BTW, JDH to stir the pot you need to rank your programs! JK

 

[jdh71]

Random question for anyone.

How many patients does an intern typically carry? On a few program websites, they say 10 and it seems like they see those ten patients in 2 hours then have rounds with the attending?

10 notes scares the crap out of me lol. I've been doing 7-8 on SURGERY, which has been a rush.

What do you guys usually see interns doing, 5/2 hours, 10/2.5 hours?

BTW, JDH to stir the pot you need to rank your programs! JK

Word. I've gone down that road before. Monkey knife fight, indeed.

Honestly, you get better and more efficient at seeing patients so you could see 10 patients every morning. It wouldn't be fun but it's doable, but likely poorly executed for the first few weeks. Hopefully you don't have a senior resident dense enough to let you write all 10 notes yourself the first day. Services ebb and flow. I usually saw 6 or 7 most mornings.

 

[gutonc]

Honestly, you get better and more efficient at seeing patients so you could see 10 patients every morning. It wouldn't be fun but it's doable, but likely poorly executed for the first few weeks. Hopefully you don't have a senior resident dense enough to let you write all 10 notes yourself the first day. Services ebb and flow. I usually saw 6 or 7 most mornings.

^This.

Technically, IM interns are capped at 10 patients at a time (as the primary, this doesn't count cross-cover on call). But it varies. Some (extremely rare) days, you'll have 1 or 2. Other days you'll have 10...which kind of sucks. Our 1 intern IM teams are capped at 12 with the resident supposedly primarily managing the two extra folks. In reality however this (either 12 patients, or seniors writing notes) rarely happens. But yes, you'll usually run in the 4-8 patient range and, after awhile, you'll be fine.

 

[Instatewaiter]

I'd say, depending on the service and place in the call schedule we average 4-8. When you get into the 8-10 range consistently it starts to suck.

 

[DrVanNostran]

So essentially, I should start getting used to 10 notes in 2 hours, correct? I hope to God I go to a place with Epic.

 

[jdh71]

So essentially, I should start getting used to 10 notes in 2 hours, correct? I hope to God I go to a place with Epic.

It's like that 10 per day will be the exception not the rule. Writing 10 notes every day on today's normal IM patient's, while technically doable, is a good way to kill morale. Lot's of places are adding an intern if possible.

 

[DrVanNostran]

buuuuuuuuuuuuuuummmmmmmmmpppppppppp

 

[DreamingTheLive]

Add a little spice to this thread.....

JDH, Guton, Vets....how bout rankings or resident/fellow gossip bout the happiest residents or cush-est places?

i.e., friends don't let friends go to UTSW, Thought I read a rumor about Colorado gettin busted for work hours violations, Northwestern being cush as they come, etc., etc....

I know it is an individual thing, but every program website looks the same, their residents are the happiest in the world and have the best training blah blah blah...... and aside from a rumor or snippet here or there on the interweb, its impossible to garner some good info on resident life/experiences

Vets....please regale us with "stories" around the campfire

 

[choirboy]

So for the IM programs I'm applying to, the consensus seems to be something like this:

Tier 1:
UCSF, MGH, JHU, BWH

1A:
Duke, Stanford, WashU

1B:
BID, Northwestern, UChicago, Vandy

Everyone else:
Mayo, UT-SW, Emory, Cleveland, and a few others to remain nameless (like home institution)... I welcome other's thoughts on the subject

 

[jdh71]

So for the IM programs I'm applying to, the consensus seems to be something like this:

Tier 1:
UCSF, MGH, JHU, BWH

1A:
Duke, Stanford, WashU

1B:
BID, Northwestern, UChicago, Vandy

Everyone else:
Mayo, UT-SW, Emory, Cleveland, and a few others to remain nameless (like home institution)... I welcome other's thoughts on the subject

1a . . . 1b . . . are kind of false separators

The "top tier" represents the top 30-35 medicine programs. The elite four sit atop all of them by general consensus of "academic" quality, research, and fellowship training/placement. Outside of those four there is a rapidly diminishing return on program name and everything else. Duke vs BID vs Vandy . . . it's all kind of the same thing really.

 

[DrVanNostran]

To stir some drama. Here are the 2011-2012 Internal Medicine rankings per US NEWS.

1. "Harvard"
1. JHU
3. UCSF
4. Duke
5. Penn
6. Michigan
7. Wash U
8. U Washington
9. Columbia
10. Yale
11. Stanford
12. UCLA
13. UTSW
13. Vanderbilt
15. Pittsburgh
16. Northwestern
17. Mayo
18. Cornell
18. U Chicago
20. Alabama
20. Wisconsin
22. Baylor
22. Colorado
22. Iowa
22. UNC
26. UCSD
27. Case Western
27. Emory
27. MSSM
27. Ohio State
27. Virginia

With Harvard: MGH, BWH, and BIDMC that gives ~ the top 30 per US News. Now lets kick each others *****!

I think the most notable omissions are: NYU, OHSU, and maybe CCF

 

[Medikit]

The difficult thing with these lists is that many of these programs are quite different clinically. Furthermore the culture at each institution has significant variation as well. Some people thrive in the setting at Parkland, other people prefer Mayo. Both provide excellent training and leave many doors open for fellowship. Beyond this, I'm sure many of us agree that no one should be making a rank list based on perceived prestige alone. When I interviewed at programs I tended to grade programs based on the following categories:

-Clinical experience: Does the program have enough diversity or even enough patients so that I feel ready for almost anything after I finish my training. Is it important to me to work in a city hospital or a VA?
-Vibe: I simply separated programs into warm, neutral, and cold based on my overall vibe after meeting the residents and faculty.
-Research: Does the program provide time for research? Is there an identified research mentor with whom I can work?
-Professional development: Does the program care about where their residents go after they graduate? Do they allow for adequate interview time? Are the residents obtaining the fellowships they desire?
-Continuity clinic: No I didn't care about clinics, no one cares about resident clinic.
-Location: Will I be comfortable living there? Close to loved ones or at least an adequate airport?
-Labor/Education ratio: Can residents actually attend conference?
-Perks: Does the program make me choose between a nice apartment or eating food? Does the program provide meals for lunch?
-Negatives: What major problem/issue/hurdle do I foresee at X program?

Anyone care to add any other criteria you used which I may have left out?

 

[DrVanNostran]

The difficult thing with these lists is that many of these programs are quite different clinically. Furthermore the culture at each institution has significant variation as well. Some people thrive in the setting at Parkland, other people prefer Mayo. Both provide excellent training and leave many doors open for fellowship. Beyond this, I'm sure many of us agree that no one should be making a rank list based on perceived prestige alone. When I interviewed at programs I tended to grade programs based on the following categories:

-Clinical experience: Does the program have enough diversity or even enough patients so that I feel ready for almost anything after I finish my training. Is it important to me to work in a city hospital or a VA?
-Vibe: I simply separated programs into warm, neutral, and cold based on my overall vibe after meeting the residents and faculty.
-Research: Does the program provide time for research? Is there an identified research mentor with whom I can work?
-Professional development: Does the program care about where their residents go after they graduate? Do they allow for adequate interview time? Are the residents obtaining the fellowships they desire?
-Continuity clinic: No I didn't care about clinics, no one cares about resident clinic.
-Location: Will I be comfortable living there? Close to loved ones or at least an adequate airport?
-Labor/Education ratio: Can residents actually attend conference?
-Perks: Does the program make me choose between a nice apartment or eating food? Does the program provide meals for lunch?
-Negatives: What major problem/issue/hurdle do I foresee at X program?

Anyone care to add any other criteria you used which I may have left out?

Great post! Thanks

Your bullet points will be an excellent framework to analyze programs we interview at this year. Any other tips would be greatly appreciated. I didn't even realize to think about the labor:education ratio since almost all programs brag about the conferences, reports, etc.

 

[kunfu]

Whats the deal with the 3 different Yale programs. Yale-New Heaven, Yale-Waterburg, and Yale-Brigport?

Similarly whats the story on John Hopkins-bayview?

Thanks

 

[bronx43]

Whats the deal with the 3 different Yale programs. Yale-New Heaven, Yale-Waterburg, and Yale-Brigport?

Similarly whats the story on John Hopkins-bayview?

Thanks

Bridgeport and Waterbury are community programs that are just affiliated with Yale. They might rotate there a few months throughout residency. New Haven is their main categorical program. Same is true for Bayview.

 

[francisco84]

Bridgeport and Waterbury are community programs that are just affiliated with Yale. They might rotate there a few months throughout residency. New Haven is there main categorical program. Same is true for Bayview.

I know nothing about Yale's affiliates but Bayview is considered by many around here to be the 2nd or 3rd best program in the Baltimore-Washington area (Behind JHU, neck and neck with UMd, and light years ahead of GWU or GTU)

 

[kunfu]

Bridgeport and Waterbury are community programs that are just affiliated with Yale. They might rotate there a few months throughout residency. New Haven is there main categorical program. Same is true for Bayview.

I know nothing about Yale's affiliates but Bayview is considered by many around here to be the 2nd or 3rd best program in the Baltimore-Washington area (Behind JHU, neck and neck with UMd, and light years ahead of GWU or GTU)

Thanks guys, just the type of info I was looking for.

 

[bronx43]

I know nothing about Yale's affiliates but Bayview is considered by many around here to be the 2nd or 3rd best program in the Baltimore-Washington area (Behind JHU, neck and neck with UMd, and light years ahead of GWU or GTU)

Oh, I didn't know Bayview was neck and neck with UMaryland. Do you know how many of their rotations are done at JHU?

 

[Instatewaiter]

I know nothing about Yale's affiliates but Bayview is considered by many around here to be the 2nd or 3rd best program in the Baltimore-Washington area (Behind JHU, neck and neck with
UMd, and light years ahead of GWU or GTU)

I also know next to nothing about Yale's affiliates. Blackandgold probably would though.

Oh, I didn't know Bayview was neck and neck with UMaryland. Do you know how many of their rotations are done at JHU?

Some would say Maryland is better than Bayview; others would say Bayview is better. I would say that Bayview's fellowship match is probably better than Maryland's (maybe as a function of having access to research and letter writers from JHH). In the end Bayview is either 2nd or third in the Baltimore/Washington area.

In terms of rotations at Hopkins Hospital, bayview residents don't do a whole heck of a lot of time at JHH but do some. They spend a month on Leukemia at JHH and then another month doing heme-onc clinic split between JHH and Bayview. I think you can also do electives at JHH but I'm gonna be honest, I have yet to see a Bayview resident here at JHH (I'm a JHH resident).

The Bayview residents do get a good bit of exposure to hopkins as a whole. First all of the bayview attendings are part of Johns Hopkins internal medicine (can't be said about many other "satelite" programs including the other Hopkins satelite- sinai hospital) and these attendings often attend at JHH. Also, all the Hopkins fellows split time between JHH and Bayview so their fellows are also the fellows the Osler residents also have. In terms of research, the bayview residents often do research at JHH. Finally, the olser residents do 2 months of time in Bayview's MICU and CCU as 2nd years before they run the JHH micu/ccu.

 

[gutonc]

Oh, I didn't know Bayview was neck and neck with UMaryland. Do you know how many of their rotations are done at JHU?

Bayview is one of the 3-5 best community IM programs in the country and is on par with many medium to big name Uni programs. The Hopkins affiliation is real, the vast majority of other University affiliated community programs are in name only.

 

[DrVanNostran]

Bayview is one of the 3-5 best community IM programs in the country and is on par with many medium to big name Uni programs. The Hopkins affiliation is real, the vast majority of other University affiliated community programs are in name only.

I'm sure that this has been asked, but what are the other community programs worth checking out?

 

[gutonc]

I'm sure that this has been asked, but what are the other community programs worth checking out?

Well there are plenty that are decent but the ones that I would put near or in the JH-Bayview category would include Scripps-Green, CPMC, Virginia Mason (Seattle), SLR (borderline and up for debate), whatever they're calling that program in Evanston, IL these days (it seems to change names every couple of years) and (until this year when it technically became a Univ program) NSUH-LIJ.

 

[gutonc]

I'm sure that this has been asked, but what are the other community programs worth checking out?

Well there are plenty that are decent but the ones that I would put near or in the JH-Bayview category would include Scripps-Green, CPMC, Cedars-Sinai, Virginia Mason (Seattle), SLR (borderline and up for debate), whatever they're calling that program in Evanston, IL these days (it seems to change names every couple of years) and (until this year when it technically became a Univ program) NSUH-LIJ. Some would include SB-Cottage, SCVMC and Scott&White in Texas.

 

[DrVanNostran]

Well there are plenty that are decent but the ones that I would put near or in the JH-Bayview category would include Scripps-Green, CPMC, Cedars-Sinai, Virginia Mason (Seattle), SLR (borderline and up for debate), whatever they're calling that program in Evanston, IL these days (it seems to change names every couple of years) and (until this year when it technically became a Univ program) NSUH-LIJ. Some would include SB-Cottage, SCVMC and Scott&White in Texas.

Sweet thanks!

The one in Evanston is University of Chicago-Northshore. They definitely do change names a lot. Them switching from the Rush affiliation to UofC definitely helps.

 

[stankem]

Sweet thanks!

The one in Evanston is University of Chicago-Northshore. They definitely do change names a lot. Them switching from the Rush affiliation to UofC definitely helps.

It was actually NW affiliated before.

 

[DrVanNostran]

It was actually NW affiliated before.

My bad you are correct. Is Skokie hospital still affiliated with Rush? I know they rotations out in Skokie, but I thought all of Northshore went with UofC.

 

[NEXUS 5]

I think you can also do electives at JHH but I'm gonna be honest, I have yet to see a Bayview resident here at JHH (I'm a JHH resident).

Upper level Bayview residents can and frequently rotate on JHH-based subspecialty consult services.

 

[kunfu]

OK next question. What do you guys know about phili programs. Temple vs. Drexel?

 

[gold&black2005]

Re: Philly - Temple dramatically stronger than Drexel, would argue that Temple in some aspects beats out Jeff for number 2 in Philly.

Re: Yale - New Haven is the main program, Waterbury the primary care program (spends about 40% of residency at YNHH) and Bridgeport/Greenwich/St Raphael happen to be owned by Yale Medicine (or will be soon)...residents will intermittently do electives at YNHH on consult services.

 

[drrockstar140]

Well there are plenty that are decent but the ones that I would put near or in the JH-Bayview category would include Scripps-Green, CPMC, Cedars-Sinai, Virginia Mason (Seattle), SLR (borderline and up for debate), whatever they're calling that program in Evanston, IL these days (it seems to change names every couple of years) and (until this year when it technically became a Univ program) NSUH-LIJ. Some would include SB-Cottage, SCVMC and Scott&White in Texas.

Really!? What's the scoop on Virginia Mason?

 

[DrVanNostran]

Re: Philly - Temple dramatically stronger than Drexel, would argue that Temple in some aspects beats out Jeff for number 2 in Philly.

Re: Yale - New Haven is the main program, Waterbury the primary care program (spends about 40% of residency at YNHH) and Bridgeport/Greenwich/St Raphael happen to be owned by Yale Medicine (or will be soon)...residents will intermittently do electives at YNHH on consult services.

How's Greenwich? I got an pamphlet from them in the mail. They pay for housing, have a decent match list, and show a degree with Yale on it. Kinda makes me tingle.

 

[gold&black2005]

How's Greenwich? I got an pamphlet from them in the mail. They pay for housing, have a decent match list, and show a degree with Yale on it. Kinda makes me tingle.

Makes NW look malignant...trust me

 

[DrVanNostran]

Makes NW look malignant...trust me

Man, I can not wait to go on this interview!!

Thanks for the post!

 

[LupaCupcake]

I never realized case western had such a good name. I am from Ohio although I have not lived in ohio for years since I am military, but I am still legally a resident of cleveland. I pay taxes for a state I have not lived in for many years lol.

anywho...just my two cents.

 

[kunfu]

Whats the story on Baylor-Dallas (BUMC). I know Baylor in Houston is the "prestigious" program, but is Baylor-Dallas affiliated and where does it stand in the grand scheme of things? I just haven't seen much on this program. Thanks.

 

[butterfinger]

Whats the story on Baylor-Dallas (BUMC). I know Baylor in Houston is the "prestigious" program, but is Baylor-Dallas affiliated and where does it stand in the grand scheme of things? I just haven't seen much on this program. Thanks.

BUMC is affiliated with UTSW. Very small program with about 11 residents per class. More like a mix of academics and community I think? Sorry I could not be more helpful.

 

[kunfu]

BUMC is affiliated with UTSW. Very small program with about 11 residents per class. More like a mix of academics and community I think? Sorry I could not be more helpful.

Well thats already more then I knew so thanks a ton.

 

[texasguy]

BUMC is affiliated with UTSW. Very small program with about 11 residents per class. More like a mix of academics and community I think? Sorry I could not be more helpful.

i'm not familiar with baylor-dallas but utsw-austin is UTSW's affiliate community program in austin, tx that is also relatively small

 

[gutonc]

i'm not familiar with baylor-dallas but utsw-austin is UTSW's affiliate community program in austin, tx that is also relatively small

But Austin is awesome and Dallas is...well...it's in Texas. If you're going for a mediocre community program, you might as well do it in a city that doesn't suck

 

[obiwan]

BUMC is affiliated with UTSW. Very small program with about 11 residents per class. More like a mix of academics and community I think? Sorry I could not be more helpful.

This is incorrect. The internal medicine program at Baylor medical center has no affiliation with UTSW. UTSW used to send 3rd year medical students to Baylor for medicine rotations but that is no longer the case. Baylor will start to get Texas A&M med students. Baylor med residents have nothing to do with UTSW.

There is definitely a different culture at Baylor vs UTSW and it may reflect in the caliber of the residents there. I'm a UTSW medicine resident and have only heard negative things about there program with the exception of its cushiness from students who have rotated there.

Hope that helps

 

[butterfinger]

This is incorrect. The internal medicine program at Baylor medical center has no affiliation with UTSW. UTSW used to send 3rd year medical students to Baylor for medicine rotations but that is no longer the case. Baylor will start to get Texas A&M med students. Baylor med residents have nothing to do with UTSW.

There is definitely a different culture at Baylor vs UTSW and it may reflect in the caliber of the residents there. I'm a UTSW medicine resident and have only heard negative things about there program with the exception of its cushiness from students who have rotated there.

Hope that helps

BUMC-Dallas is affiliated with UTSW. BMC Houston is not. The OP was asking about BUMC-Dallas if I understood correctly.

 

[obiwan]

BUMC-Dallas is affiliated with UTSW. BMC Houston is not. The OP was asking about BUMC-Dallas if I understood correctly.

I know he was referring to Baylor Hospital in Dallas. Again, Baylor in Dallas has no affiliation with UTSW internal medicine. Our medicine residents/faculty don't work there. There medicine residents/faculty don't work at UTSW. We used to send some med students there but that has stopped. I can't speak for any other residency programs at UTSW.