Preempting the inevitible rankings thread

[jdh71]

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Look, don't wish too hard for the pointless threads to go away. It is really the only action the IM forum gets.

Without them there would be literally no action in the IM forum and JDH would lose his shit.

I'd have to bother someone else. I know I post here too much. It's a personal failing. I'm working on it.

 

[Instatewaiter]

I'd have to bother someone else. I know I post here too much. It's a personal failing. I'm working on it.

Aren't we all.

I can quit anytime. Is there a 12 step program for SDN? I'd be interested if someone wants to start one.

 

[jdh71]

for great justice

 

[DrVanNostran]

I've been waiting for this thread to be bumped! Can we start the rankings over again?

 

[jdh71]

I've been waiting for this thread to be bumped! Can we start the rankings over again?

Of course. Go for it.

Just know you will make someone mad.

 

[gutonc]

Of course. Go for it.

Just know you will make someone mad.

I'm actually already mad. Thinking about banning DVN just for bringing it up.

 

[jdh71]

Imma gunna do it.

Imma gunna put together an OFFICIAL ranking.

 

[jdh71]

Top 25 bishes!! IN order!!

1. Hopkins
2. B&W
3. UCSF
4. Mass Gen
5. Penn
6. UWashington
7. Columbia
8. WashU
9. Duke
10. Michigan
11. SWern
12. Cornell
13. UCLA
14. Stanford
15. Vandy
16. BID
17. UChicago
18. NWern
19. Emory
20. UAB
21. UVA
22. Yale
23. Dartmouth
24. OHSU
25. UNC

 

[Deferoxamine]

Reaction:
-- WashU, UWash, and UPenn ALL beating Duke <3
-- Underdogs UVa and Dartmouth making the cut <3
-- MGH at #4 despite being #1 in US News hospital ranking <3 <3
-- at Hopkins in #1 after the recent Smoof post
-- Noticeable omissions: UPitt, Mt. Sinai, Mayo

1. Hopkins
2. B&W
3. UCSF
4. Mass Gen
5. Penn
6. UWashington
7. Columbia
8. WashU
9. Duke
10. Michigan
11. SWern
12. Cornell
13. UCLA
14. Stanford
15. Vandy
16. BID
17. UChicago
18. NWern
19. Emory
20. UAB
21. UVA
22. Yale
23. Dartmouth
24. OHSU
25. UNC

 

[jdh71]

Reaction:
-- WashU, UWash, and UPenn ALL beating Duke <3
-- Underdogs UVa and Dartmouth making the cut <3
-- MGH at #4 despite being #1 in US News hospital ranking <3 <3
-- at Hopkins in #1 after the recent Smoof post
-- Noticeable omissions: UPitt, Mt. Sinai, Mayo

It's the word of god.

I Like UVA and Dartmouth

We all know the UN&WR ranking are bull****

Hopkins is still Hopkins

And you can argue that Mayo should up in there, maybe (I've become rather familiar with their training and I'm not that impressed - you really want to do your fellowship there, if you're so inclined, not your residency [though their fellowship match list is ai'ight]), but completely disagree about Pitt or MSSM, though no disrespect to those programs, which are fine.

 

[tco]

Top 25 bishes!! IN order!!

1. Hopkins
2. B&W
3. UCSF
4. Mass Gen
5. Penn
6. UWashington
7. Columbia
8. WashU
9. Duke
10. Michigan
11. SWern
12. Cornell
13. UCLA
14. Stanford
15. Vandy
16. BID
17. UChicago
18. NWern
19. Emory
20. UAB
21. UVA
22. Yale
23. Dartmouth
24. OHSU
25. UNC

Looks official to me.

 

[HoldTheCoffee]

I'm going to open a Pandora's box and ask: what is the basis of this particular set of rankings? It is based on your experience with trainees from these programs?

Not trying to argue. If anything, I'm mainly curious from the viewpoint of a medical student who's on the outside looking in. The list looks generally "right" from what I've heard from other higher-ups but I've never gotten a real sense why certain famous names aren't "ranked" very high on SDN whereas other programs which the general public probably don't know much about are extremely well-regarded within the medicine higher ups.

 

[disorder]

I'm going to open a Pandora's box and ask: what is the basis of this particular set of rankings? It is based on your experience with trainees from these programs?

Not trying to argue. If anything, I'm mainly curious from the viewpoint of a medical student who's on the outside looking in. The list looks generally "right" from what I've heard from other higher-ups but I've never gotten a real sense why certain famous names aren't "ranked" very high on SDN whereas other programs which the general public probably don't know much about are extremely well-regarded within the medicine higher ups.

it's mainly sorcery and magic, and the mods hold the power.

 

[gutonc]

I'm going to open a Pandora's box and ask: what is the basis of this particular set of rankings? It is based on your experience with trainees from these programs?

It's based on jdh trying to stir s*** up, which is totally cool IMHO. This list isn't "wrong" per se, but it's not "right" either.

And that brings up an issue that I think jdh and I completely agree on, and that is that, the "best" or "Top X" programs for you are likely very different than the "best" or "Top X" programs are for me, or for essentially any other applicant. These lists are fine, but our reliance on them to tell us what to do are a major problem.

it's mainly sorcery and magic, and the mods hold the power.

I have no power...I can't even lay a b****slap on jdh even though he deserves it.

FTR...outside of politics (in which he is completely wrong), jdh and I agree about most things that get discussed on SDN.

 

[Chemist0157]

Top 25 bishes!! IN order!!

1. Hopkins
2. B&W
3. UCSF
4. Mass Gen
5. Penn
6. UWashington
7. Columbia
8. WashU
9. Duke
10. Michigan
11. SWern
12. Cornell
13. UCLA
14. Stanford
15. Vandy
16. BID
17. UChicago
18. NWern
19. Emory
20. UAB
21. UVA
22. Yale
23. Dartmouth
24. OHSU
25. UNC

How did you get my program list? 😉

 

[jdh71]

Looks official to me.

I like you

 

[jdh71]

I'm going to open a Pandora's box and ask: what is the basis of this particular set of rankings? It is based on your experience with trainees from these programs?

Not trying to argue. If anything, I'm mainly curious from the viewpoint of a medical student who's on the outside looking in. The list looks generally "right" from what I've heard from other higher-ups but I've never gotten a real sense why certain famous names aren't "ranked" very high on SDN whereas other programs which the general public probably don't know much about are extremely well-regarded within the medicine higher ups.

it's mainly sorcery and magic, and the mods hold the power.

Disorder is correct - voodoo. I has to sacrifice many chickens. It was all coroborated by the intestines of a goat.

Though this list is just kind of my "feeling" about these programs put together with how I think they are viewed nationally. These are also the programs that will give you a super hard time trying to get into and will require "more" on your application.

 

[jdh71]

It's based on jdh trying to stir s*** up, which is totally cool IMHO. This list isn't "wrong" per se, but it's not "right" either.

And that brings up an issue that I think jdh and I completely agree on, and that is that, the "best" or "Top X" programs for you are likely very different than the "best" or "Top X" programs are for me, or for essentially any other applicant. These lists are fine, but our reliance on them to tell us what to do are a major problem.

👍

I have no power...I can't even lay a b****slap on jdh even though he deserves it.

FTR...outside of politics (in which he is completely wrong), jdh and I agree about most things that get discussed on SDN.

Just because you're a godless commie doesn't mean I'm wrong. Jus sayin' . . .

 

[jdh71]

Here's my list of places that think are great in IM training for one reason or another that often, but not always, don't get a lot of play or respect around here - some are more of a dark hose than others..

In no particular order . . .

OHSU
USC
Loma Linda
Utah
Minnesota
Wisconsin
Creighton
Rush
Loyola
SLU
Texas A&M
Case
Cincinatti
Pitt
Maryland
Brown
Vermont
Tufts
Wake
MUSC
USF
UF-Gainesville

 

[Hassler]

Here's my list of places that think are great in IM training for one reason or another that often, but not always, don't get a lot of play or respect around here - some are more of a dark hose than others..

In no particular order . . .

OHSU
USC
Loma Linda
Utah
Minnesota
Wisconsin
Creighton
Rush
Loyola
SLU
Texas A&M
Case
Cincinatti
Pitt
Maryland
Brown
Vermont
Tufts
Wake
MUSC
USF
UF-Gainesville

I think UC Davis, UC Irvine, Harbor, Olive View, Cedars would be considered by most California applicants to be at or above Loma Linda......

Also, UIC should be included if you're listing Rush and Loyola, but I guess you're just throwing some programs' names out there and not meant to be comprehensive.

 

[jdh71]

I think UC Davis, UC Irvine, Harbor, Olive View, Cedars would be considered by most California applicants to be at or above Loma Linda......

Also, UIC should be included if you're listing Rush and Loyola, but I guess you're just throwing some programs' names out there and not meant to be comprehensive.

Correct.

It's not a rank list.

It some places for various reasons that I think I great for IM.

Perhaps every place you mentioned is great or crap . . . It's kind of irrelevant per the point of the post where I mention Loma Linda and Loyola.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Top 25 bishes!! IN order!!

1. Hopkins
2. B&W
3. UCSF
4. Mass Gen
5. Penn
6. UWashington
7. Columbia
8. WashU
9. Duke
10. Michigan
11. SWern
12. Cornell
13. UCLA
14. Stanford
15. Vandy
16. BID
17. UChicago
18. NWern
19. Emory
20. UAB
21. UVA
22. Yale
23. Dartmouth
24. OHSU
25. UNC

Oh ****! It must be application season again.

Uwashington so high with Duke below it?

Love that SWern is so high on the list. I think it is a often overlooked program that delivers great clinical training.

Personally I like to break it up into tiers but what kind of controversy would that lead to...

Here's my list of places that think are great in IM training for one reason or another that often, but not always, don't get a lot of play or respect around here - some are more of a dark hose than others..

In no particular order . . .
USC
Loma Linda
Utah
Minnesota
Wisconsin
Creighton
Rush
Loyola
SLU
Texas A&M
Case
Cincinatti
Pitt
Maryland
Brown
Vermont
Tufts
Wake
MUSC
USF
UF-Gainesville

A few shout outs:
Jefferson
Bayview
Wake forrest
Baylor

 

[jdh71]

Oh ****! It must be application season again.

Uwashington so high with Duke below it?

You are all acting like it's 10 years ago. Who wants to go to Durham?

Love that SWern is so high on the list. I think it is a often overlooked program that delivers great clinical training.

Personally I like to break it up into tiers but what kind of controversy would that lead to...

Dooooooo Eeeeeeeet!!

A few shout outs:
Jefferson
Bayview
Wake forrest
Baylor

👍

 

[Instatewaiter]

You are all acting like it's 10 years ago. Who wants to go to Durham?



Dooooooo Eeeeeeeet!!



👍

You wanna talk about crappy locations... who wants to go to Baltimore?

HERE GOES

Upper Tier:
Tier 1: Hopkins, MGH, The Brigham, UCSF

Tier 2 : Duke, Columbia, Penn

Middle of the upper tier
Tier 3- UTSW, Uwash, WashU, Michigan, Stanford

Tier 4- Cornell, Yale, OHSU, UCLA, BIDMC, Mayo

Tier 5: Vandy, NW, Chicago, UAB, Emory, UVA, Dartmouth

Upper portion of the Middle Tier:
Tier 6: UNC, Maryland, Pitt, Wake Forrest, Bayview, VCU, Tufts, Rush, Wisconsin, Brown

Tier 7: Jefferson, UF-gainsville

 

[HoldTheCoffee]

OMG. What have you done?

 

[Hokie06]

.

 

[jdh71]

OMG. What have you done?

Just wait for it . . . 😀

 

[jdh71]

I like the way instate waiter ranked the programs. Would be nice to see how other programs would fit into this scheme

Tiers is actually a better way to think about these kind of things

 

[jdh71]

You wanna talk about crappy locations... who wants to go to Baltimore?

no one

but for hopkins?

people make some exceptions

Duke no longer has that kind of gravitas in my ever so humble opinion

(I require an angry refutation of this assertion by a current or former duke resident NAO!!)

 

[Deferoxamine]

You wanna talk about crappy locations... who wants to go to Baltimore?

HERE GOES

Upper Tier:
Tier 1: Hopkins, MGH, The Brigham, UCSF

Tier 2 : Duke, Columbia, Penn

Middle of the upper tier
Tier 3- UTSW, Uwash, WashU, Michigan, Stanford

Tier 4- Cornell, Yale, OHSU, UCLA, BIDMC, Mayo

Tier 5: Vandy, NW, Chicago, UAB, Emory, UVA, Dartmouth

Upper portion of the Middle Tier:
Tier 6: UNC, Maryland, Pitt, Wake Forrest, Bayview, VCU, Tufts, Rush, Wisconsin, Brown

Tier 7: Jefferson, UF-gainsville

 

[jdh71]

it's on

 

[bombas238]

Anyone ever heard of the "M -List?" Not sure how appreciative the author would be of sharing it, but it's quite entertaining. Top programs have some of the more amusing comments:

Hopkins: Intense. Has been internship baptism by fire and fly by the seat of your pants from day one. Orphaned interns at night with more on-call autonomy for interns than many (maybe anyone) would be prepared for. Has a "firm" system. Pretty good camaraderie, but so do the Marines.

Mass General: Tends to look for potential world changers more than great clinicians-to-be. Baptism by fire with elite fellow housestaff. Huge ward teams set up where each has a rotating unique daily assignment. Very resident run show/team. No night float. All night call.

UCSF: One of top two programs in the West. Intense. Students usually are typically in the top 10% in class with all trappings of success, like being AOA. They look for students planning academic careers and have past experiences to support it. Top notch training but possibly without as much diversity of peers in career plans. Descriptors have included arrogant & cold, though others just say "very confident."

Sounds like if you've worked hard you get to play hard.

 

[gutonc]

I like the way instate waiter ranked the programs. Would be nice to see how other programs would fit into this scheme

Throw some out there, we'll slot them in...and put a beating on Def while we're at it.

 

[Dextrocardia]

Anyone ever heard of the "M -List?" Not sure how appreciative the author would be of sharing it, but it's quite entertaining. Top programs have some of the more amusing comments:

Hopkins: Intense. Has been internship baptism by fire and fly by the seat of your pants from day one. Orphaned interns at night with more on-call autonomy for interns than many (maybe anyone) would be prepared for. Has a “firm” system. Pretty good camaraderie, but so do the Marines.

Mass General: Tends to look for potential world changers more than great clinicians-to-be. Baptism by fire with elite fellow housestaff. Huge ward teams set up where each has a rotating unique daily assignment. Very resident run show/team. No night float. All night call.

UCSF: One of top two programs in the West. Intense. Students usually are typically in the top 10% in class with all trappings of success, like being AOA. They look for students planning academic careers and have past experiences to support it. Top notch training but possibly without as much diversity of peers in career plans. Descriptors have included arrogant & cold, though others just say "very confident."

Sounds like if you've worked hard you get to play hard.

Never heard of it. Where can you find it?

 

[HoldTheCoffee]

Where would other Cali programs (UCI, Davis, SD) fall on people's lists? Mainly just curious, I don't really have a horse in this race...

 

[gutonc]

Where would other Cali programs (UCI, Davis, SD) fall on people's lists? Mainly just curious, I don't really have a horse in this race...

UCSD falls somewhere in tiers 4-6, the others in 7 or lower.

 

[HarryGary]

You wanna talk about crappy locations... who wants to go to Baltimore?

HERE GOES

Upper Tier:
Tier 1: Hopkins, MGH, The Brigham, UCSF

Tier 2 : Duke, Columbia, Penn

Middle of the upper tier
Tier 3- UTSW, Uwash, WashU, Michigan, Stanford

Tier 4- Cornell, Yale, OHSU, UCLA, BIDMC, Mayo

Tier 5: Vandy, NW, Chicago, UAB, Emory, UVA, Dartmouth

Upper portion of the Middle Tier:
Tier 6: UNC, Maryland, Pitt, Wake Forrest, Bayview, VCU, Tufts, Rush, Wisconsin, Brown

Tier 7: Jefferson, UF-gainsville

Interviewing for cards now and going to a lot of the major academic centers. I basically see people from 1-4 at all my interviews. I haven't seen anyone from Dartmouth or UVa around, though maybe they are just going on the other days 😀

 

[Instatewaiter]

I like the way instate waiter ranked the programs. Would be nice to see how other programs would fit into this scheme

Basically if a program isn't on the list I just put up there, you should consider that you have failed at life and you should probably quit medicine. Realistically you and your patients would be better off if you were a coral farmer. Sorry.

 

[Instatewaiter]

no one

Duke no longer has that kind of gravitas in my ever so humble opinion

(I require an angry refutation of this assertion by a current or former duke resident NAO!!)

I agree. I think they have great training. All of the fellows I have met that came from Duke have been incredibly smart. But, I think they occasionally have trouble attracting applicants and are more picky than they are able to be. Look at what has happened to them in the last 3 years. Their medicine program didn't fill a few years ago and their cards program didn't fill last year.

 

[JohnSmiley]

Throw some out there, we'll slot them in...and put a beating on Def while we're at it.

How about the Colorado and Baylor programs? I have heard positive things about their hospital systems.

 

[majahops]

I find it sort of funny that when we rank programs, we choose to include only those at the top... say the top 25-30... I understand why this makes sense in football, because this has barring on who is going to have a shot at the big bowl games or the championship... but it just doesn't seem particularly USEFUL when ranking residencies... since a) people who go to top 25 programs - if they perform well - will likely be able to match into a fellowship (+/- location) of their choosing and b) most people don't match into top 25 programs, so knowing about the relative quality/competetitiveness of the OTHER programs would be extremely useful.

What would be truly useful would be to know where the not so obvious schools fall:

e.g. UIC vs. Case Western vs. Cleveland Clinic vs. Ohio State vs. Kaiser Los Angeles vs. Temple vs. Jefferson vs. Scripps-mercy.... Those are the places that are kind of a black box to many of us... and if someone with insight took the time to rank THOSE types of programs with respect to each other (even just into major tiers)... that would be hugely useful and not so obvious.

 

[Hokie06]

.

 

[jdh71]

I find it sort of funny that when we rank programs, we choose to include only those at the top... say the top 25-30... I understand why this makes sense in football, because this has barring on who is going to have a shot at the big bowl games or the championship... but it just doesn't seem particularly USEFUL when ranking residencies... since a) people who go to top 25 programs - if they perform well - will likely be able to match into a fellowship (+/- location) of their choosing and b) most people don't match into top 25 programs, so knowing about the relative quality/competetitiveness of the OTHER programs would be extremely useful.

What would be truly useful would be to know where the not so obvious schools fall:

e.g. UIC vs. Case Western vs. Cleveland Clinic vs. Ohio State vs. Kaiser Los Angeles vs. Temple vs. Jefferson vs. Scripps-mercy.... Those are the places that are kind of a black box to many of us... and if someone with insight took the time to rank THOSE types of programs with respect to each other (even just into major tiers)... that would be hugely useful and not so obvious.

I think this thread is starting to have the desired effect . . .

 

[majahops]

Sad.

I think this thread is starting to have the desired effect . . .

 

[jdh71]

Sad.

Why's that?

 

[Raryn]

I second this. more often than not i look at the bottom 20-30 than the top 10-15 programs.

There are just under 400 programs, even ranking it into vague tiers would be difficult.

 

[HoldTheCoffee]

How would the ordering change if we were talking purely about how hard it is to get an interview instead of by "reputation"?

 

[Instatewaiter]

How about the Colorado and Baylor programs? I have heard positive things about their hospital systems.

I'd say Colorado is somewhere between tier 6 and 7.

Baylor is between tier 5 and 6 (probably 5)

 

[gutonc]

I'd say Colorado is somewhere between tier 6 and 7.

Baylor is between tier 5 and 6 (probably 5)

I'd put them both at 6...in your magical tier system.

 

[majahops]

Because I think I know what you meant.

Why's that?