SDN family...I really need your help!

Started by natalieises
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natalieises

Illinois CVM 2014
10+ Year Member
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I've posted in various other threads about this but this problem is to the point that I need my own thread. I know so narcissistic right?! haha. Sooooo I am having to decide between Western (love it) and Illinois (uncertain). I know a lot of people just jump into the "go IS save money" mantra, but please give me more useful advice than that in this thread. I'm all about picking a school based on several factors and NOT just on money. When it comes to the end of the day I'm going to vet school I'll have my DVM (if all goes well 😉). HOWEVER, I don't think you get the same experience at every school. At this point I'm really battling this whole having to make very large payments on a very large loan for 15 years of my life. And if anyone has any in depth info on Illinois that would be awesome because I don't feel like I know a lot about the school other than it's obviously a well established school and it has an awesome clinical skills lab. We're talking about PBL vs traditional lecture +the new early clinical stuff. So this isn't just two similar schools with different strengths in different animal areas. The programs are vastly different which is why I'm having such a hard time!

I am open to opinions/thoughts/ideas, but please make this a constructive thread and be open to both sides of the debate. Thank you!
 
Well, how did/do you feel about PBL?


Also, I know Western and Edinburgh are about the same price, so this is still relatively applicable. I know you want more than just money, but I don't know how in-depth you've looked at the money:

10 year repayment plan (Edinburgh [$240,000 debt]/A&M [$140,000 debt])

  • $3,000 monthly payment / $1,900 monthly payment
  • $400,000 total repayment / $240,000 total repayment
25 year repayment plan (Edinburgh / A&M)

  • $2,100 monthly payment / $1,200 monthly payment
  • $640,000 total repayment / $360,000 total repayment
Not sure how comparable Illinois is to A&M though. My two had a large price gap so the difference between them was marked.
 
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I really do not have much to add here. For my own reasons, I would say go Illinois, but I am a biased waitlister at Western. 🙄

Honestly, I really can not say which is better. I would seriously think about which way you learn better. If you feel that you will get more out of PBL than the traditional lectures than go for Western if you feel that you do better in traditional lectures than go for Illinois. No matter what you will end up with your DVM from an amazing school because after all they are all good and they will all teach you what you need to be a veterinarian. I would really look at the debt you will be taking on and really think about what amount of debt you could really handle. If you feel like you can handle the amount of debt from Western then go for it; however if you feel like it will cause a lot of stress in the long run then it may not be worth it.

Really take each piece of the puzzle that is important to you and decide which one works best for you. Do you want to live in soCAL for 4 years or would you prefer Illinois? Do you want to take on the amount of debt at Western (well, no one really wants to but you get what I mean)? Is a traditional setting better for you or a PBL setting? Look at the specific areas that you are interested in and see if one of these schools focuses or has better opportunities in those specific area. Remember that no matter which school you choose you will get opportunities to go elsewhere in 4th year for some rotations (especially at Western), and if you decide to specialize you will have even more opportunity to go elsewhere. I would really think it out, decide what is most important to you and once you have answered which school best fits you and your specific interests/needs (for the 4 years you will be in school and the next 15-20 years that you will have to pay it off) then pick that school. Good Luck and keep us updated!! :luck:
 
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The only thing with the Western PBL that makes me nervous is are we like teaching ourselves---(yes, I saw the demonstration)--but you know how you write on the board your problem areas (and thats what you look up and learn about for each case)----won't I be looking up everything on my own?!
 
dogsNcats said:
The only thing with the Western PBL that makes me nervous is are we like teaching ourselves---(yes, I saw the demonstration)--but you know how you write on the board your problem areas (and thats what you look up and learn about for each case)----won't I be looking up everything on my own?!
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Yes. That is the way I understand it, but think when you become a vet and have a really hard case won't you have to look up the info. on your own anyway? It may seem hard now, especially since most people are used to a little direction, but in the long run it will really be beneficial.
 
HopefulAg said:
Well, how did/do you feel about PBL?


Also, I know Western and Edinburgh are about the same price, so this is still relatively applicable. I know you want more than just money, but I don't know how in-depth you've looked at the money:

10 year repayment plan (Edinburgh [$240,000 debt]/A&M [$140,000 debt])

  • $3,000 monthly payment / $1,900 monthly payment
  • $400,000 total repayment / $240,000 total repayment
25 year repayment plan (Edinburgh / A&M)

  • $2,100 monthly payment / $1,200 monthly payment
  • $640,000 total repayment / $360,000 total repayment
Not sure how comparable Illinois is to A&M though. My two had a large price gap so the difference between them was marked.
Click to expand...


Did you do all the math on that on your own or is there any sort of helpful tool online??? I would like to get a real figure for my exact options so I can truly decide if I can deal with the long term effect of my choice
 
you know my advice, natalieises.

JOIN US!

👍 😍 :ninja::highfive::nod::banana:
 
Did you do all the math on that on your own or is there any sort of helpful tool online??? I would like to get a real figure for my exact options so I can truly decide if I can deal with the long term effect of my choice
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Well I constructed a spreadsheet and Excel did the math 😀 No way could I do all that myself!

I can send you the spreadsheet if you'd like. Keep in mind that it could be wrong, but I'm pretty certain it's not. Or rather, it's accurate to the best of my ability.
 
DVMDream said:
Yes. That is the way I understand it, but think when you become a vet and have a really hard case won't you have to look up the info. on your own anyway? It may seem hard now, especially since most people are used to a little direction, but in the long run it will really be beneficial.
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Most new vets will tell you that the hardest part is being able to translate "book knowledge of disease c" to "ok, this dog has symptoms x, y z, so it must be disease c". One vet told me that you learn everything backwards, and have to relearn how to apply it in a clinical setting.

The PBL curriculum is designed to teach you to learn "forward" instead of backwards, and make that jump from book knowledge to clinical more easily.

Anyway, I've been told thats why PBL is supposed to be good. Personally, I learn best in a traditional setting, and would rather have to relearn some things after I get the DVM 🙂
 
Would it be possible for those going to Western AND Illinois to post why they have chosen each school---like sell your decision---BUT more based on the PROGRAM (not weather and cost). So we can see what we would be missing---I am in a similar position with Western/U of I. THIS WOULD BE SOOOOO HELPFUL! Thanks in advance !
 
natalieises said:
. Sooooo I am having to decide between Western (love it) and Illinois (uncertain). !
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I honestly don't know much about either school, but from what you said (above) I think you already know where you want to go! Go with your gut. Sounds like you like western the best.

The way I see it is vet school is GOOD debt (even though its 1000's of dollars in "good" debt), it's not like being in debt because of a shopping habit (haha guilty!), it for VET SCHOOL! But that being said the tuition at western is almost double and should really be to taken into consideration.

Make a pros and cons list, it may help.
Keep in mind that in the end no matter where you end up going to vet school, you end up with the same degree, DVM. It's the little things (like electives/program styles etc.) that make the difference. So pick a place that best suits your aspirations. BUT that's just my opinion.
 
you could say I'm less biased 🙄

From my own limited interactions with vets from Western vs. vets from Illinois, I'd have to go with Illinois. They seem to produce better vets, consistently, overall. So far, I've met four vets who have graduated from western in the last 5 years and with one notable exception, they all seemed less prepared and less confident in their vet med knowledge than the two vets I know who went to Illinois. This is not to say that western produces bad vets in the least. Just speaking from a very small sample size.

Also, if you're still stuck deciding between the two programs, you can always try this quantitative analytical approach suggested by a friend of mine:

"
[SIZE=+0]Ok, here goes.[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=+0]First, make a list of all the aspects in a school/city you are looking for (i.e. the program, curriculum, elective opportunities, cost of living, location, etc). Then, rank each of those aspects on a 1 to 5 scale (5 being the most important to you, 1 being the least important to you). Then, go through each school and score each aspect 1 to 5 (5 being the best choice or closest proximity to something, or the greater access to something). Finally, for each aspect and school, you multiply the ranking on importance by the given score. Once you've done this for each aspect at each school, you add the weighted numbers together and get a final score for each school. I've attached the sheet my sister and I made up for my grad schools so you can see an example and follow it. You don't have to do it in Excel, but my sister did bec ause she is an Excel genius and I'm rather idiotic when it comes to using it. If I didn't explain it well, please let me know! I hope it helps!"[/SIZE]​
 
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HopefulAg said:
I've used that one too, but the thing I didn't like about it was that you can only put in one interest rate, when really you're charged two separate interest rates on differing amounts.

Not sure how much of a problem that is with the changes to finance rates and all that good stuff that's going through Congress at the moment.
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So use the higher interest rate to give yourself some wiggle room. 😉
 
I have made the decision to attend a higher cost school (Penn) so might have an interesting perspective.

* First off, you absolutely cannot ignore the cost difference. It is ok to choose the much more expensive option, but choose knowing exactly what you are getting yourself into. You have to be prepared for the possibility of struggling financially for several years. You also have to realize that you may never recoup the cost difference between the schools.

* Having said that, it doesn't mean that you shouldn't choose Western. I just want you to think about how much more you prefer it and whether you think that justifies the cost. No one else's "opinions" on that choice matters. It is really personal.

* As for the difference in styles, I went through this with business school people (the old Harvard case method vs Wharton numbers approach). To be honest, both styles result in great grads and people are equally successful. A lot of this becomes dogmatic, and some people fall in love with one style but from my opinion would be equally successful either way. It is in the nature of people to prefer that which they are familiar with. If you feel strongly about it one way or another then you should decide that for yourself.

* Even having chosen Penn, which I obviously feel is a great school, I am entirely unconvinced that it would be worth paying twice as much to go there over other schools. I chose Penn for very personal lifestyle issues for my wife and myself. Those strongly outweighed the cost equation for me. Since I already preferred Penn, it made it easier for me. (For what it is worth, there was only one school that met the characteristics that my wife and I were looking for AND was considerably cheaper and I didn't meet the requirements to apply there this year.)

* If you feel that strongly about something about Western, and you are comfortable with the financial burden you will incur, then go with Western. If not, there is no doubt that at Illinois you will get a great education and will probably be pretty happy. A lot of what you get out of any of the schools is what you put into it.

Sorry for the long post, but I thought my perspective might add some different. Or maybe I am just tired. Good luck.

fyi: My personal vet is from Illinois, and the clinic where he works/I volunteer is a Western 4th year rotation spot so I see plenty of Western students. He is great, and the students all seem nice too so I have no preference either way.
 
So use the higher interest rate to give yourself some wiggle room. 😉
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But I don't wanna!

I did that, but it was bugging me to hell that I didn't have an exact figure and so I spent the next hour or two making a complicated spread sheet to tell me a more exact figure. I have issues.
 
I'll chime in! Having experienced Western at my interview, I did not feel that it was the right place for me. The curriculum seems too intimidating to me. I was prepared to choose Ross University over Western University. I got the feeling (...and the PROFESSOR that was on my STUDENT panel corroborated this) that exams would be very stressful because of the way the curriculum is designed. I don't want to say that I feel like I'd be teaching myself, but it is something close to that I think. I DON'T want to ruffle any Western feathers! This was my impression only. I know that you will become a great vet if you go to Western or Illinois. If you went to Western, there is a good chance that you'd exit a better, more seasoned clinician because of the abundance of hands on experience--however, I don't really know about Illinois' curriculum, I might be wrong on that one. In the end, I'd go with Illinois. When I got accepted to Western, I talked to a vet that I have worked with ever since day 1 of my volunteering, and he said that if it were him, he would not go to Western (for a few reasons). When you add debt into the equation, I personally would choose Illinois hands down.
With that being said...I am not dissing Western! It's obviously a good school because it just got fully accredited. I just know that the curriculum is definitely not for everyone (myself included); and it would be heartbreaking to find out that it is not for you a month or two into vet school. Good luck with your decision!
 
cowgirla said:
Anyway, I've been told thats why PBL is supposed to be good. Personally, I learn best in a traditional setting, and would rather have to relearn some things after I get the DVM 🙂
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I think this is the most important thing to consider. No matter what school you go to you will end up with a DVM and all of the schools produce students that can make it as a veterinarian....otherwise you would not pass the NAVLE. In the end, it is what you are most comfortable with. For me, PBL works. I have always been the one that prefered to read/teach myself and then use lectures as an additional resource for information to further add to what I had previously learned. I really like the idea of starting off with a case that is relevant to what I will be doing and then learning a specific pathway/disease/physiological process based off of that case. Then I can apply each little thing that happens to the bigger picture of why the animal is dispalying x, y, and z. It just makes sense to me and it is better for me than here is all of the histology, physiology, biochemistry, etc for the first few years and then at the end trying to apply it clinically. But each person has their own specific preferance and that is all that really matters; what you will be more comfortable with. All of the schools will give you the end result and IMO no one school is better than or above another.
 
Just putting in my opinion 🙂.
I visited/interviewed western and I definitely felt like PBL is there main selling point. For people that truly learn better that way it may be well worth the extra money. So, if you know you would definitely learn better in a PBL setting than a traditional classroom setting then perhaps go for it. If not then I don't see other advantages at Western being worth double the cost.
Just my opinion 😳.
 
Illinois sounds like it's doing some really neato stuff with their curriculum.

I can't imagine Pomona being a nicer OR cheaper place to live than Urbana-Champaign.

Western costs *how* much more?

Are you really 100%... no, 110% sure that PBL will work for you?

What exactly did you love so much about Western that you have not seen from Illinois? You have visited Illinois, right?

And, lastly, are you certain that you aren't biased towards Western because they let you in right off? I mean, first all-out acceptance, that has to be thrilling. Don't let it color your final decision though, at least not without realizing it.

You can pick whichever, obviously, but make sure you have given Illinois a fair shake first. Because (IMO) it doesn't seem like you have really tried to love Illinois - at least give the poor place a chance. 😀
 
I LOVE PBL, and I think it would have 100% improved my performance and enjoyment of vet school. All our courses that are similar to the PBL model I do extremly well in. The clinicians who have taught in both PBL and traditional school have told me again and again that PBL works far better for non-trads (who generally have more experiences with looking things up, getting to the salient points, and synthesizing the information) than traditional class room learning (which places an emphasis on passive learning in a crowded setting where the ability to absorb and regurgitate are important.)

Having said all that, I still wouldn't have chosen a PBL school with a significantly higher price tag over my cheaper IS traditional program which is still excellent. Here is why; it is ONLY 4 years of my life (well, 3, I wouldn't count clinicals). Why would I trade years of my future life for my present life if the result is the same; a DVM with a good education? I would prefer a 2-2 program as well, but I still wouldn't at the additional costs. I know you don't want to hear why costs matter, but the reality isn't that costs matter, it is what the extra costs will mean sacrificing down the road and it can mean the difference between being a happy veterinarian or one that feels like they are trapped at a practice scraping by.
 
Twelvetigers glad to see you joined the party! haha you are right that I haven't truly given Illinois a chance for love. It's just hard to fall in love with two people at the same time! I got to talk to my go to mentor/vet this morning and that only murked things up more for me. Of course everyone stresses teh money issue and I can't ignore that. I do think pbl would be awesome, but yea what if I drown 2 months in and can't go on? These are all hind sight is 20/20 questions so I won't know until I experience either or.

Are there any people out there who don't feel like they learn a lot in lectures, but are in vet school now? Is the fact that the material is now more relevant to your life dream enough to make it more interesting?
 
natalieises said:
Are there any people out there who don't feel like they learn a lot in lectures, but are in vet school now? Is the fact that the material is now more relevant to your life dream enough to make it more interesting?
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The material is fascinating. The difficulty is quantity, at least in my opinion. In PBL you need to be able to organize that yourself, sometimes without the background, while in traditional, it is organized for you and then presented with a given structure which may or may not be to your liking. I think PBL takes more ground work time, but it may be easier to miss details, while passive learning may drown one in details. Just my opinion.
 
natalieises said:
I've posted in various other threads about this but this problem is to the point that I need my own thread. I know so narcissistic right?! haha. Sooooo I am having to decide between Western (love it) and Illinois (uncertain). I know a lot of people just jump into the "go IS save money" mantra, but please give me more useful advice than that in this thread. I'm all about picking a school based on several factors and NOT just on money. When it comes to the end of the day I'm going to vet school I'll have my DVM (if all goes well 😉). HOWEVER, I don't think you get the same experience at every school. At this point I'm really battling this whole having to make very large payments on a very large loan for 15 years of my life. And if anyone has any in depth info on Illinois that would be awesome because I don't feel like I know a lot about the school other than it's obviously a well established school and it has an awesome clinical skills lab. We're talking about PBL vs traditional lecture +the new early clinical stuff. So this isn't just two similar schools with different strengths in different animal areas. The programs are vastly different which is why I'm having such a hard time!

I am open to opinions/thoughts/ideas, but please make this a constructive thread and be open to both sides of the debate. Thank you!
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I have read none of the other posts before I responded to this. I would say you are correct that your experience is different at every school. Now that I have said that, let me try to help you with the PBL vs. Traditional (obviously I can only compare undergrad "traditional" so I cannot say much, nor will I say much to that (it drives me crazy when people say what they think about PBL, when they have like 1 or 2 units and do not understand what it is like to be 100% PBL, so I would not do the same to those that chose the traditional route). For PBL to even be the slightest enjoyment for you you have to accept a few things:
1. You are going to teach yourself
2. You will hate it if you are not self motivated
3. You will hate it if you need to be told what to study, what will be "on the test"
4. You are going to teach yourself
5-10You will be teaching yourself. You will pay some of the highest tuition to teach yourself. If this is going to bother you, you will regret going to an all PBL school

I will say that I had a love/hate relationship with PBL (hated it getting close to hell week). I like to teach myself so I was fine with that aspect. In hindsight, I would have chosen the cheaper school (but keep in mind that I did not have any financial support and did not have my own money, so all of my debt is in loans). Being in my position, the only thing I regret about going to Western is my debt. If however I had the finances and were able to choose again, I would go to Western in a heartbeat. I LOVED my time there, I just think I could have done the traditional route (I can't say I would not like it also) and not had the huge loans I have now (try finding a job in this economy and you will understand why my loans are such a bad thing).

If you have any other questions please let me know. 🙂
 
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Thank you thank you thank you for responding chris. I was secretly hoping and waiting to see if my thread would catch your eye.
 
first of all, natalieises, I want to CONGRATULATE you on having a choice to make! I remember that around this time last year, we were both hating our wait list statuses!

Now for some "helpful" advice, although I do not know how helpful it will turn out out be:

If it were MY decision, I'd go with Illinois. I know that I'd do HORRIBLE in a PBL curriculum, though. And I know that you're not trying to focus on the debt load...but I certainly would be. For those two reasons, if it were MY decision it would be an easy one. That being said, it's YOUR decision, and it's obviously not an easy one, or you wouldn't have posted this thread.

Why don't you look into things like the board exam pass rates? That should give you an idea of which school might better prepare you for graduation? Just a thought. I'm sure that you will be happy at whichever school you choose--making the decision will be the hard part!

Congrats again!
 
cRose said:
Why don't you look into things like the board exam pass rates? That should give you an idea of which school might better prepare you for graduation? !
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WOW thanks I was just about to ask this!!! Does anyone know the pass rates?! That would be helpful! THANKS 🙂
 
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Illiniois

08-09: 94.3%
07-08 95.83%
06-07 93.68%
Year​
00-0101-0202-0303-0404-0505-0606-0707-0808-09Illinois96.63%99.00%98.98%98.98%94.14%94.16%93.68%95.83%94.23%

source:
http://vetmed.illinois.edu/asa/accreditation.html


Western
2008-2009
North American Veterinary Licensing Examination (NAVLE)
(First-time test takers) 83%
North American Veterinary Licensing Examination (NAVLE)
(All takers) 93%

source:
http://www.westernu.edu/xp/edu/oir/oir-veterinary-charts.xml

A little hard to guage the Western numbers but it seems clear they had a lot of people retaking the test. Either way, Illinois numbers seem to be higher.
 
I would say it depends on how you like to learn and the finanical issues. I personally consider tuition to be top prioirty and will not attend any school that does not allow you to get instate rates after your first year (theres not many). Ironically, illinois is the only school I called that could not give me a concrete answer about whether you can obtain instate tuition after the first year. Anyone know?

I think it depends for every person. I personally cannot justify paying 40k+ a year for tuition at western. Even with the debt being for my education and future, I just cannot be bogged down with that kind of debt for that long.
 
I had a tough time deciding on Missouri vs. VMRCVM and I used a decision matrix (somewhat like what der2002 described). It's basically a pro-con list on steroids 🙂.

Write down what your priorities are and how much each factor matters--I did 1, 2, or 3 stars--you can have as many as you think you need. I gave each school a +, - or 0 for each factor compared to the other and multiplied it out. Once I figured my priorities out, the decision was pretty easy.

It sounds like you think you would like the PBL curriculum. How important is that to you? How important is cost? Location? Cool professor? Research opportunities? Class size? Case load? Diversity of caseload? NAVLE scores? What are your end career goals, and will the school make a difference?


Good luck!! Remember, there is no wrong decision--either way, you get a DVM from a great school!
 
I have a lot of trouble imagining what PBL would really be like. So you have a case, and something doesn't make sense or you just haven't learned it yet, so you get out your book and look for it? Or you Google it? So instead of having anatomy as a class and learning everything on each animal, system by system, you get it in bits and pieces over a period of three years? I mean, this sort of learning seems like it would be nearly impossible with no basal knowledge on the subject, you know?

Am I not understanding it right? I've never done PBL or visited Western, so I have no idea what it's like aside from what I've read on here. Could someone explain it better?
 
DVMDream said:
I believe at my Western interview they had around a 98%, but they mentioned that they thought everyone had passed for this years class. I can not speak for Illinois though.
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I was told the same thing during my interview there. Also, I was told that most 2nd year students pass a mock NAVLE exam.

Natalieises here's my opinion. Like chris said you teach yourself and many people are on here with the "why would I pay so much just to teach myself?". Well, I would rather teach my self and learn how to find things out my self than be spoonfed information in a lecture hall of a hundred or so students where I would feel like I'm just another number. Then later on have to regurgitate what I was spoonfed just to pass an exam. I hate when my education (that I'm paying lots of money for) rests in the hands of professors, especially those profs that are pumping their egos when they're lecturing and take enjoyment in giving F's. Yes, there are awesome professors out there, but what if you get crummy ones or ones that you just can't learn from (think back in undergrad). Also, I remember retaining only a small amount of information from the two hour lectures that profs tried to cram in so much stuff. When did I really learn stuff? When I went home and studied the material myself or when I went to TA study groups where I interacted and was involved in questions with the TAs and the other 10 or so students that would show up. But that's just me. And that's just my opinion.

I haven't worried about money or cost too much. We're all going to be in debt. Who says money can't buy happiness? For me, I am gonna shell out 100K extra for my sanity and happiness. Vet medicine is something I love to do (I've been in the field now for the past 8 1/2 years)and I don't want it ruinded for me by another horrible traditional-style learning environment that I would be miserable in. I want the next 4 years to be one of the best experiences in my life. I did not get into my IS school but I don't care if people call me crazy but I am pretty sure if I did I would turn down Davis after being accepted to Western.

I'm not here to try to convince you to choose one school over the other but just to share my thoughts. I bet you wouldn't be the first one to turn down IS for Western.

Good luck on your decision. Don't second guess yourself after you make that decision because it will just torment you. Congratulations, you will be a DVM in 2014!!!!
 
Congrats natalieises!!!

Is there anything in particular you don't like about Illinois? If not, I would go there. If it's just that you're not feeling the warm and fuzzy about the place, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Once you're there, I bet you'd be just as happy!

If you absolutely MUST do PBL, then go to Western... but unless you have a particular reason to believe at this point that you wouldn't be happy at Illinois, I think you have the same chance of being happy/unhappy at either school. If you end up unhappy at Illinois, at least you can say you saved some money. If you end up unhappy at Western... well... you might get super angry at yourself. Academically, I think you might be taking more of a risk with Western unless you know that PBL is the right type of curriculum for you, or that you know the traditional lecture style is something you want to avoid.

I personally ended up choosing a slightly more pricey school (ends up being $20,000 more altogether) for very personal reasons, so I totally understand where you're coming from though. For me, it didn't even matter which school it was, or what kind of curriculum they had. Location ended up being everything for me given that I didn't have a cheap IS option.
 
twelvetigers said:
I have a lot of trouble imagining what PBL would really be like. So you have a case, and something doesn't make sense or you just haven't learned it yet, so you get out your book and look for it? Or you Google it? So instead of having anatomy as a class and learning everything on each animal, system by system, you get it in bits and pieces over a period of three years? I mean, this sort of learning seems like it would be nearly impossible with no basal knowledge on the subject, you know?

Am I not understanding it right? I've never done PBL or visited Western, so I have no idea what it's like aside from what I've read on here. Could someone explain it better?
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I can't explain it completely as I have only experienced PBL during my interview. First, I think the bulk PBL is only the first 2 years. You start rotations in 3rd year, but I'm not sure if there is still PBL in year 3. The way I see it, you build on concepts you already know. You find things you don't know and you research it. Because many of the body systems are interlinked you learn about them together (the physiology and anatomy then add in other -ology and so on). Everybody in the group works together and you have your instructor to guide you and make sure you don't go too far from the path they want you to go down.

At my interview for example, we were given a patient (a 2year old female Okapi) that is kept in the client's ranch in southern cali who is not eating. People in the group were asked to identify the facts we are presented with. Then people were asked what information they need to know more of. So someone said, "What is an Okapi?" another said "what does an Okapi normally eat?" "Where does an Okapi normally live?" As you find the answers to these questions more questions naturally unfold. So say you find out that an Okapi feeds on browse. One would ask "how much a day?" and then ask "how much does this patient eat normally?" what is the digestive process of the Okapi?' (aha, anatomy and physiology). what could cause an Okapi to not eat? (aha, pathology, behavior, parasitology, etc) The profs stressed that it's not about finding a diagnosis. It's about uncovering learning issues to get to the diagnosis.

anyhoo... I've rambled enough. sorry for the long post. It kinda feels like Dr. House in a way.
 
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marcwood said:
I can't explain it completely as I have only experienced PBL during my interview. First, I think the bulk PBL is only the first 2 years. You start rotations in 3rd year, but I'm not sure if there is still PBL in year 3. The way I see it, you build on concepts you already know. You find things you don't know and you research it. Because many of the body systems are interlinked you learn about them together (the physiology and anatomy then add in other -ology and so on). Everybody in the group works together and you have your instructor to guide you and make sure you don't go too far from the path they want you to go down.

At my interview for example, we were given a patient (a 2year old female Okapi) that is kept in the client's ranch in southern cali who is not eating. People in the group were asked to identify the facts we are presented with. Then people were asked what information they need to know more of. So someone said, "What is an Okapi?" another said "what does an Okapi normally eat?" "Where does an Okapi normally live?" As you find the answers to these questions more questions naturally unfold. So say you find out that an Okapi feeds on browse. One would ask "how much a day?" and then ask "how much does this patient eat normally?" what is the digestive process of the Okapi?' (aha, anatomy and physiology). what could cause an Okapi to not eat? (aha, pathology, behavior, parasitology, etc) The profs stressed that it's not about finding a diagnosis. It's about uncovering learning issues to get to the diagnosis.

anyhoo... I've rambled enough. sorry for the long post. It kinda feels like Dr. House in a way.
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Is the reason your okapi wasn't eating was because it had an ulcer on its tongue?
 
DVMDream said:
Is the reason your okapi wasn't eating was because it had an ulcer on its tongue?
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Yup. 🙂 That was disclosed on the second part of the PBL. More and more information is disclosed to the group as you progress. Now the questions within the group would be "what is an ulcer?" "what would cause an ulcer on an Okapi's tounge?" "what is anatomocally involved in the Okapi's oral cavity?" "why is this ulcer preventing the Okapi from eating?" (it's painful, aha! open a neurology book and find which cranial nerves are involved and their pathway of pain) "what treatments can we do/medications to prescribe?" (clinical skills/pharmacology).

I hope people can start to get the idea of how things develop?
 
twelvetigers said:
I have a lot of trouble imagining what PBL would really be like. So you have a case, and something doesn't make sense or you just haven't learned it yet, so you get out your book and look for it? Or you Google it? So instead of having anatomy as a class and learning everything on each animal, system by system, you get it in bits and pieces over a period of three years? I mean, this sort of learning seems like it would be nearly impossible with no basal knowledge on the subject, you know?

Am I not understanding it right? I've never done PBL or visited Western, so I have no idea what it's like aside from what I've read on here. Could someone explain it better?
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I got to sit in on a 2nd year PBL elective class when I went to visit CSU, and it's pretty much what marcwood explained (though I'm sure there are some differences between curricula at different schools). It was really really neat! The professor brings a case that was actually a real case at the teaching hospital and acts like the owner. The students ask all the questions they would to the owner as if they were handling the case. Then after that's all set and done, they figure out what tests they would like to run, and the professor gives them the test results for the tests they wanted to run. All the while, the students compile "learning issues" about anything and everything they should look up in order to get to the diagnosis. Then the students all divied up those learning issues to look up at home, and they present those during the next class. Then based on those, they move forward and try to piece things together to come to a diagnosis and also a treatment plan. Along the way, they keep accumulating more and more learning issues until they can finally decide on a diagnosis and treatment plan. In the end, the professor lets them know what the actual diagnosis was and what the actual treatment and outcome were.

I absolutely loved it, but I'm not sure that I'd personally thrive with it being a main part of my curriculum because I learn really well in the traditional lecture/book/exam style.
 
marcwood said:
"what is the digestive process of the Okapi?' (aha, anatomy and physiology).
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Right, and then you what, learn everything there is to know about the digestive system? What all the parts are called, each part's' function, all possible problems or malfunctions... I just don't buy it.

I just can't fathom how all these tiny bits manage to assemble into a reasonably detailed overview of everything you need to know (and would be taught in chapters or sections in different classes, with similar topics grouped together, in traditional curriculum).

I really do like the *idea* of PBL! Like marcwood explained, it would be awesome to learn to find things on your own from the very beginning, and to work in groups instead of nodding off in lecture, and to not have to count on your professors giving a crap in order to do well... but I just can't imagine assimilating the massive (massive!) amounts of info required to be a DVM completely in the PBL setting.

This is an important thing for me to consider. Given my stats, Western is probably one of my better chances for acceptance into a DVM program, but I *have* to be sure I could handle PBL. And I'm not. And I won't be able to visit the school ahead of time since flights are usually $600 (and I'm flying all over the place this summer).
 
twelvetigers said:
Right, and then you what, learn everything there is to know about the digestive system? What all the parts are called, each part's' function, all possible problems or malfunctions... I just don't buy it.
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I think this is where the facilitators would step in to make sure you don't delve too much into the digestive anatomy and physiology because for this case (as it was later revealed) it was geared to focus on the oral ulcer. I think for this case, once you discover the digestive system of this animal (ruminant or what not), then the facilitator would steer you from going to far into the digestive physiology because there is probably another case later on that will require you to go into more depth than that.

The more PBL cases you do, the more you will find that the stuff you learned before can be used as a foundation for the next case to build on. I think that that is better than learning the whole digestive anatomy and physiology of 10 species crammed at one time. I think humans (in general) retain information better and longer if it is given in small chunks rather than all at once.

When you get your next case, you'll be able to revisit the stuff you've learned before. Like, "oh, ruminant digestion, I remember seeing this before. Well now that I have some knowledge of it, it won't be so intimidating."

One of the best pieces of advise that one of the students there told me is that you must realize that you can't learn everything. That is a solid piece of advise regarding all vet schools, 4 years is not enough to learn everything. That's why its so important that you learn how to find and discover things on your own.

Sorry if we're starting to get off topic. Maybe someone should start a PBL thread so that people that have experience with PBL can go into more depth.
 
We have a few classes that are PBL then regular courses for everything else. Some professors integrat PBL nibbles into regular lectures.

I too wonder if you eventually learn all the details you need, but at the same time I think we may learn many unnecessary details.
 
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Also the PBL example they did was something that could be done in about 30 minutes worth of time. We were there only for a day and the PBL session was a small chunk of that day, so they couldn't really give us anything that required us to go look up an in-depth enzyme reaction for. It also had to be relatively simple because, well we weren't vet students yet lol.
 
Thank you everyone so far for the comments. You have no idea how helpful it has been, and how influential! I'm flip flopping on my choice so it's hard to say at this point what I'm going to do. Keep the advice coming if you've got anything else!
 
I think someone might have mentioned this but don't forget to factor in the cost of living. I'm pretty sure CA trumps IL by a long shot.

Have you talked to anyone at IL about spending a little more time times there, maybe sit in on some classes?
 
I think I asked this in the other thread... but, what is pushing you towards Western versus Illinois? Maybe that could help us help you make a decision.
 
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