Official 2011-2012 IM "How To Rank" Thread

[jdh71]

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How would you rank these? Want to do either Nephrology or Endocrinology Fellowship. Location doesn't matter as much but would be great to be a good city.

I am an IMG so these are just my top 5.

1. Mayo
2. Vandy
3. Cleveland Clinic
4. Dartmouth
5. UMass

Thanks 🙂

Vandy
Mayo
Dartmouth
CCF
UMass

You'll be fine for a nephro or endo match from any of those programs.

 

[jdh71]

Interested in cards.... i'm thinking

Bayview, Mayo-AZ, UIC, OSU, Loyola, CCF, Indiana....others

any thoughts on MayoAZ being 2?

For a cards match? They do have a few well known cards attendings there, but IM program strength/rep might be a bit of a problem. Scottsdale is a nice area and I like Phoenix so I can appreciate the impetus, but I don't know . . . if you'd have said any other specialty but cards (or GI), I'd have said, "No problem." With that said . . . if you like where you are and can grow and excel, there's no reason you won't be able to find a cards spot out of Mayo-AZ. I did very well going with my gut.

 

[Deferoxamine]

Page 9 of this thread:

[YOUTUBE]IvvmiAbPBss[/YOUTUBE]

 

[gutonc]

How would you rank these? Want to do either Nephrology or Endocrinology Fellowship. Location doesn't matter as much but would be great to be a good city.

I am an IMG so these are just my top 5.

1. Mayo
2. Vandy
3. Cleveland Clinic
4. Dartmouth
5. UMass

Thanks 🙂

Ignoring geography and the whole "good city" issue (since you don't actually have one on that list), I'd swap CCF and Dartmouth and otherwise leave it as is.

 

[mizvp23]

I am interested in Cards for fellowship---need some advice on ranking please!

Cedars Sinai
Harbor-UCLA
UC Irvine
Scripps Green
Baylor-Houston
Mayo-Arizona
Mayo-Florida
UT San Antonio
UT Houston
Kaiser San Fran/Oakland
USC
University of Florida
Scripps Mercy

 

[applegeek1234]

.

 

[Bitterman]

Vandy
Cornell
Maryland
VCU
HF

Why because that's the way I like them, and Vandy kicks huge ass. You need to decide if not ranking is worth not having a job come july. It only gets harder the second (third) time around.

Aside from being higher ranked, what for you makes UMaryland better than VCU? The only thing I disliked about Maryland was that their daily progress notes and admission notes were hand written. Otherwise I felt the 2 programs were nearly identical. VCU's PD is awesome.

 

[jdh71]

Aside from being higher ranked, what for you makes UMaryland better than VCU? The only thing I disliked about Maryland was that their daily progress notes and admission notes were hand written. Otherwise I felt the 2 programs were nearly identical. VCU's PD is awesome.

This is why YOU make your rank list 😉🙂

Maryland isn't necessarily "better" than VCU

 

[applegeek1234]

.

 

[livinsunny]

Please help me rank my programs. I am from CA and would like to stay there so keep that in mind.

UCLA
Stanford
Northwestern
UChicago
BIDMC
WashU
UCLA olive view
UCLA Harbor
UC Irvine
Cedars-Sinai
UC Davis
UCSD
Scripps

I am interested in GI. Location is important to me. Enough that I decided not to go to my interviews at JHU osler and UW. I am leaning toward Ucla and Stanford as my tops.

 

[WonkaNerds]

Finally done with interviews and have a dilemma. So I actually liked both Stanford and UCSF programs and am unsure of which program I would rank higher. I am interested in GI. Any thoughts about the program differences/similarities/standing/fellowship match? Also any thoughts about the program leadership issue with Stanford. Thanks.

 

[ohsekw]

Please help me rank my programs. I am from CA and would like to stay there so keep that in mind.

UCLA
Stanford
Northwestern
UChicago
BIDMC
WashU
UCLA olive view
UCLA Harbor
UC Irvine
Cedars-Sinai
UC Davis
UCSD
Scripps

I am interested in GI. Location is important to me. Enough that I decided not to go to my interviews at JHU osler and UW. I am leaning toward Ucla and Stanford as my tops.

Look at me stressing out over my own, pretty similar list and then turning around and giving you advice. But...

For geography + getting into fellowship nationally
1. UCLA / Stanford / ?UCSD (not sure if UCSD belongs here)
2. BIDMC / WashU
3. Northwestern / UChicago
4. Everything else
====
If you would be happy staying in-house or regionally for fellowship, you would be FINE with this list
1. UCLA / Stanford
2. UCSD
3. Cedars-Sinai
4. UC Irvine / UC Davis
5. UCLA Harbor / UCLA Olive View
6. Scripps
7. BIDMC / WashU / Northwestern / UChicago

If location is so important to you, somewhere like Cedars can get you into fellowship at UCLA, or Irvine, or UCSD, or wherever... You have lots of good options.

 

[ohsekw]

Another question for anyone with experience...

If one decided not to do a fellowship, but pursue a career as an academic hospitalist (say QI research), do the same geographic constrains apply? Cedars Sinai / UCLA Harbor = you'll never be hired onto staff at some elite program in the Northeast? What about more community-type programs?

I would also rather stay in California for residency, but not for forever...

 

[seadog2]

To WonkaNerds/livinsunny,

First off: congratulations. You are both in the driver's seat, clearly interviewing at great programs. Save for the bottom half of livinsunny's list, neither of you is going to have any problem matching into a strong fellowship. So my biggest advice would be not to overly stress about this and not to try to parse out some tiny difference between the programs, and instead go based on the place you liked the most when you visited, where you'd like to live, etc.

I am an intern at Stanford, so I was obviously in your shoes last year. Of the programs you two listed, I interviewed at Stanford, UCSF, UCLA, UCSD, Northwestern, U. Chicago, and BIDMC. I had a pretty strong preference for the west coast. Despite my advice above, I too stressed about the decision, and in the end decided to rank my top four as Stanford-UCSF-UCLA-UCSD. I had a hard time (especially with the top 2), but I liked my day the most at Stanford and felt that these were the residents I liked the most on the interview trail. I also slightly preferred Palo Alto to San Francisco, which I know is not the case for everyone, but was for me. I decided that I would really have equally strong options for fellowship afterwards, so I should 'go with my gut' which in the end pointed me to Stanford.

I have had a great year so far, and would certainly make the same decision now if I had to do it over again. It sounds like when the PD change happened a couple of years ago there was some unhappiness from some of the at-the-time current residents, but I can certainly say that none of that is the case now and people are really happy and very well supported, and the environment here is one of the real strengths of Stanford. I imagine that I would have been really happy at UCSF, UCLA, or (likely) UCSD as well, but this is just where I felt the most at home.

So again, I'd say to recognize that you guys are going to do really well no matter what, so just choose it based on where you had the best feel, which residents you felt you would most like to work with, and where you'd want to live. You're very unlikely to go wrong.

Specifically for livinsunny's list, and taking into account that you want to live in California, this is how I'd do it -- but again, don't go with what any of us say, go with what you feel.

Stanford
UCLA
UCSD
U. Chicago=Northwestern=WashU=BIDMC
The rest

Good luck to you both.

 

[mizvp23]

Thank appreciate it! Any other takers?

I am interested in Cards for fellowship---need some advice on ranking please!

Cedars Sinai
Harbor-UCLA
UC Irvine
Scripps Green
Baylor-Houston
Mayo-Arizona
Mayo-Florida
UT San Antonio
UT Houston
Kaiser San Fran/Oakland
USC
University of Florida
Scripps Mercy

 

[LifeDoc]

Please help me to rank these programs. I am looking for a strong academic institution, non-malig, and good chances for Endo fellowship.

Hopkins-Bayview
Cornell
Northwestern
Maryland
Temple
Cleveland Clinic

 

[Instatewaiter]

The thing is UAB does not compete with a lot of other big places (Emory, UTSW, Baylor), while BU stands with the giants. May be because of location, BU grads are able to pursue fellowships in the most prestigious institutions. I think if you were to compare BU to places like UConn or Montefiore in NYC, it should be better.

I would disagree and personally would put UAB above Baylor.

BU does not stand with the giants unless you consider having some of the giants in the same city. Of the above listed programs, I don't think BU is even in the same league.

My intel says that UNC and UAB are way higher than emory. definitely way higher than Baylor.

I liked UAB better than emory but I think Emory probably is the best regarded of those programs... but not by much.

Here is my rough draft of places I interviewed at in terms of "Strength"

Mayo
--------------------
UAB=Wisconson=Baylor=OHSU
--------------------
Case=Emory=UVa=OSU
--------------------
UCI=Rush=Cinci=UIC=CCF
-------------------
UC Northshore
Scripps


Here is how I am ranking based on Gut so far:

1. Wisconsin
2. Rush
3. UC Irvine
4. Mayo
5. OHSU
6. Baylor
7. UAB
8. UVa
9. OSU
10. Emory

If UC-Northshore had fellowships attached, they would have been number 1.

I agree, going with your gut. It is the best way to find a program you fit with. In terms of strength, I think I would rank it


Emory
UAB
OHSU
Mayo
UVA
Baylor
Wisconsin
Others

Of course, the first 4 are pretty close to each other.

Aside from being higher ranked, what for you makes UMaryland better than VCU? The only thing I disliked about Maryland was that their daily progress notes and admission notes were hand written. Otherwise I felt the 2 programs were nearly identical. VCU's PD is awesome.

I think they are comparable programs. Maryland probably has the better national reputation but not by much. Both PDs seem great. I don't think you can go wrong with either of the programs

 

[styleandsugar]

Mayo doesn't get much credit on these boards, but I was extremely impressed when I interviewed there last year (great system, great teaching, great fellowships). I just couldn't live in rochester

Based on strength/reputation:
Mayo (reputation far exceeds most of these programs. Better fellowships. Arguably access to better faculty, Rochester seemed terrible though)
UVA
Emory/OHSU - (though I think OHSU is way overhyped on SDN, mostly match in-house)
Wisconsin - Great PD, great city
UAB
Baylor - Institution has all sorts of financial institutions currently

 

[Jetty]

Hi everyone,

I'm looking to go into academic medicine (specifically- medical education)
vs Heme Onc/GI. Pretty flexible with location.

List in no particular order:
-UVA
-Mayo
-UAB
-Pitt
-JHU Osler
-JH Bayview
-Utah
-OHSU
-U Maryland
-UW Madison
-Cedar Sinai
-Harbor UCLA
-Scripps Green

Would the rank list differ depending on whether I'm pursuing academics vs a subspecialty?

 

[gutonc]

Another question for anyone with experience...

If one decided not to do a fellowship, but pursue a career as an academic hospitalist (say QI research), do the same geographic constrains apply? Cedars Sinai / UCLA Harbor = you'll never be hired onto staff at some elite program in the Northeast? What about more community-type programs?

I would also rather stay in California for residency, but not for forever...

The thing about academics (in any specialty) is that you need to make yourself stand out somehow. There are plenty of ways to do this but the two main ones are "research" and "I know a dude." Coming straight out of residency, you're much more likely to rely on the 2nd one than the first one.

So if you're coming from a program on the West Coast and want to wind up on the East Coast your IKAD quotient will probably be less powerful than it would be closer to home.

This is what fellowship (even in GIM or Hospitalist Medicine) allows you the time to do...either get more research/publications or know more dudes so your IKAD quotient will be higher. It's not that MGH has anything against you or your CA program, it's just that they don't know anybody there (or vice versa) and can easily choose from a dozen other similarly qualified applicants that they know well or who have a higher IKAD quotient than you do.

 

[adagio]

so your IKAD quotient will be higher.

hahahah ... What did you say you are? yes .. I remember ... Practical realist 🙂

The prognosis with a low IKAD quotient is dismal at best

 

[nocturnal55]

.

 

[gutonc]

hey everyone,

from a strictly work life balance perspective (and taking reputation and other factors out of the equation), how would you rank the following programs in terms of being chill/cush/fun?

emory, bcm, nyu, pitt, usc, rush, uic, uth

Strictly from a work-life balance perspective?

Rush
Pitt
------
UIC
BCM
------
50 or 60 other programs that you probably didn't interview at
------
Emory
NYU
USC
UTH

 

[KRichards62]

Hi everyone,

I'm looking to go into academic medicine (specifically- medical education)
vs Heme Onc/GI. Pretty flexible with location.

List in no particular order:
-UVA
-Mayo
-UAB
-Pitt
-JHU Osler
-JH Bayview
-Utah
-OHSU
-U Maryland
-UW Madison
-Cedar Sinai
-Harbor UCLA
-Scripps Green

Would the rank list differ depending on whether I'm pursuing academics vs a subspecialty?

JHU Olser
---------------------
UAB, UVA, Mayo, Pitt
---------------------
Bayview, UW, Cedars Sinai, OHSU, Maryland

Don't think the list differs much based on gen med vs. subspecialty except maybe moving Bayview up on the list if you are interested in primary care.

 

[gutonc]

JHU Olser
---------------------
UAB, UVA, Mayo, Pitt
---------------------
Bayview, UW, Cedars Sinai, OHSU, Maryland

Don't think the list differs much based on gen med vs. subspecialty except maybe moving Bayview up on the list if you are interested in primary care.

Osler
Mayo
-----
UAB
UVA
Pitt
OHSU
Maryland
Madison
-----
Bayview
Cedars

 

[nocturnal55]

.

 

[Deferoxamine]

Hi everyone,

I'm looking to go into academic medicine (specifically- medical education)
vs Heme Onc/GI. Pretty flexible with location.

List in no particular order:
-UVA
-Mayo
-UAB
-Pitt
-JHU Osler
-JH Bayview
-Utah
-OHSU
-U Maryland
-UW Madison
-Cedar Sinai
-Harbor UCLA
-Scripps Green

Would the rank list differ depending on whether I'm pursuing academics vs a subspecialty?

I'll chime in on this one, because it is such a unique/interesting list.

JHU-Osler
-------------
Pitt = Mayo
-------------
UVA = Wisconsin = UAB = OHSU
-------------
Maryland
-------------
Utah = Cedars Sinai
-------------
the rest...

 

[gutonc]

I'll chime in on this one, because it is such a unique/interesting list.

JHU-Osler
-------------
Pitt = Mayo
-------------
UVA = Wisconsin = UAB = OHSU
-------------
Maryland
-------------
Utah = Cedars Sinai
-------------
the rest...

I disagree in a small way (I think there are really only 3 tiers in this list with 2 programs in the top and one in the bottom) but this order is as reasonable as any. Use it as a base, add your geographic/personal bias and go nuts.

 

[jdh71]

I quibble with ALL of you!! 😡

 

[adagio]

I quibble with ALL of you!! 😡

I wouldnt want to see HST quibbling thats for sure

 

[Dimple Knuckle]

.

 

[gutonc]

hey gutonc,

what is it about emory, nyu, usc, and uth which make them particularly difficult places to train? you mentioned that you would put 50-60 programs above them in terms of lifestyle. would you consider any of these 4 to be particularly malignant?

ive heard repeatedly that rush ppl have tons of fun for whatever reason, so it was interesting to me that you agreed that rush would be a chill place to train. thanks!

I wouldn't call them "malignant" per se (since that seems to be a judgement call). But I would say that since those programs (UTH I'm not sure about) are all "county hospital" based, they are going to be a lot more work (medical and otherwise) than other programs of similar strength.

You are going to get great training at those places, and you are also going to get bent over and worked like a $2 crack *****. And that is why I would rank them so poorly on a work-life balance scale.

 

[gutonc]

I wouldnt want to see HST quibbling thats for sure

He's dead. It's an easy argument to win.

 

[adagio]

He's dead. It's an easy argument to win.

Evidently Chindis are not entities you are particularly well informed of 😀

 

[drrockstar140]

I'd like to join the "work/life balance" game with my list....any thoughts? I'm also ranking primary care tracks (OSU and Wisconsin).

Ohio State
Wisconsin
Utah
Arizona
Mayo-Arizona
Minnesota
Providence Portland
New Mexico

 

[Jetty]

I'll chime in on this one, because it is such a unique/interesting list.

JHU-Osler
-------------
Pitt = Mayo
-------------
UVA = Wisconsin = UAB = OHSU
-------------
Maryland
-------------
Utah = Cedars Sinai
-------------
the rest...

So I've been going back and reading up on Pitt and it seems it's been an "up and coming program" for several years now. Just curious but what tier would it have been in lets say 5 years ago? Do you guys see it continually moving up in the ranks as far as "academic reputation" goes?

 

[walterwhite]

Interested in pulm/cc- would like to wind up in ca after residency (from ca but willing to leave). Looking for a place with happy residents.

U Washington
Bidmc
Colorado
Nyu
Ucsd

 

[MCATMAN45]

I'd rank it:
Osler
Penn
Yale
Uwash
BIDMC
MSSM
Northwestern

What about the reputation Hopkins-Osler has of being malignant? Factor into these rankings at all? I'm curious, because I really liked my interview day there but am concerned that it might be a cutthroat place since it is so elite. I actually posted a thread on this here, too.

 

[gutonc]

What about the reputation Hopkins-Osler has of being malignant? Factor into these rankings at all? I'm curious, because I really liked my interview day there but am concerned that it might be a cutthroat place since it is so elite.

You're asking a Hopkins resident what s/he things of the place...what kind of answer do you think you're going to get? Everybody I know who has gone there loved and raves about it...but the Kool-Aid they serve is very strong.

If you had a good vibe there on interview day, you're likely to be the sort of person who would thrive there. If you felt uncomfortable for whatever reason, that's a feeling that's likely to stick. Rank accordingly.

Reputations don't come out of nowhere but they tend to lag far behind reality most places. I wouldn't let what you've heard about a place replace what you personally know about a place.

I actually posted a thread on this here, too.

Yeah...we saw that. Don't do it again.

 

[StudentDoctor55]

I am having a hard time deciding between Stanford and University of Washington. I know I can get a good fellowship placement from either so looking at other factors like resident quality of life or resident happiness with their training program which one would be better? I know you all say to follow your gut, but I honestly liked both programs about the same.

 

[gutonc]

I am having a hard time deciding between Stanford and University of Washington. I know I can get a good fellowship placement from either so looking at other factors like resident quality of life or resident happiness with their training program which one would be better? I know you all say to follow your gut, but I honestly liked both programs about the same.

As somebody said on another list, flip a coin, don't worry about which one comes up, pick the one you were hoping would come up while it was still in the air, that's your #1.

It really is a crapshoot here. I think the Stanford program is a little more "coddling" while UW is more of a sink-or-swim East Coast style place. My biggest beefs about UW were the size of the program (R3s told me they still hadn't met everyone in their class halfway through 3rd year) and the distributed nature of the training sites in a city with crappy traffic and a virtually non-existent public transportation system (an issue that Stanford shares).

But honestly, you can't really go wrong here. They're both top-notch programs that will give you all kinds of options down the road. Choose the place you'd rather live (or the place you'd rather do fellowship since they both seem to be kind to in-house applicants) but recognize that you'll be in good shape either way.

 

[jdh71]

Interested in pulm/cc- would like to wind up in ca after residency (from ca but willing to leave). Looking for a place with happy residents.

U Washington
Bidmc
Colorado
Nyu
Ucsd

Based on "happy residents"

BID
UCSD
Colorado
NYU
UW

Not that I'd say anyone is "miserable".

 

[jdh71]

I am having a hard time deciding between Stanford and University of Washington. I know I can get a good fellowship placement from either so looking at other factors like resident quality of life or resident happiness with their training program which one would be better? I know you all say to follow your gut, but I honestly liked both programs about the same.

Things will be more kick back at Stanford if that helps

 

[gutonc]

Based on "happy residents"

BID
UCSD
Colorado
NYU
UW

Not that I'd say anyone is "miserable".

This is (almost) exactly how I'd list it if thinking about happiness (I'd put UW above NYU).

If talking about Pulm/CC (and yes I realize we're talking residency here not fellowship):

UW = Colo
NYU
UCSD
BIDMC

 

[jdh71]

This is (almost) exactly how I'd list it if thinking about happiness (I'd put UW above NYU).

If talking about Pulm/CC (and yes I realize we're talking residency here not fellowship):

UW = Colo
NYU
UCSD
BIDMC

Yeah . . . NYU interchangeable with UCSD depending on which you like better the Unit or the Pulmonary (NYU's got the better critical care (aka 'insane' critical care), and UCSD the better pulm)

And I think in many, many ways UW has the better overall pulm/crit program, even though Colorado is considered the number one pulmonary spot in the country.

 

[DrVanNostran]

I'd like to join the "work/life balance" game with my list....any thoughts? I'm also ranking primary care tracks (OSU and Wisconsin).

Ohio State
Wisconsin
Utah
Arizona
Mayo-Arizona
Minnesota
Providence Portland
New Mexico

I think your top 3 will be: Wisconsin, OSU, Minn. OSU was pretty awesome. I like their system a lot, plus the "James" is pretty attractive.

 

[greyman21]

First off thanks for the help in putting the list together, I know its not the be all and end all but its nice to get different points of view. My list is below and clusters in what I think is the best balance between work/life balance, the kind of city and the prospects after residency. Really the goal is to be a place where I was really comfortable with the residents and faculty where I will become very comfortable calling shots on my own and where I don't have to be a total superstar to land a solid pulm/crit fellowship for PGY-4. Not that I don't want to be a superstar I just feel that's a lot of pressure on top of the regular pressures of being a resident.

I know BU, UMD and Jefferson are ranked rather low on my list compared to their strength academically but that's just because from my interview day I felt that they were really great academic programs that attracted personalities that I really didn't fit with. Bumping them lower than some places that take more IMG's is a hard decision for me but I'm not sure its the wrong decision because I don't want to do Interventional Cards at the Brigham.

Also if someone could throw in their 2 cents on dealing with pressures from home institutions to stay in your home program. Not that I wouldn't be happy at my home program (MD and not listed below) but their fellowship match wasn't great in any specialty which makes me feel like I would have to be a superstar to get a solid fellowship.

Brown, Tufts, Pitt

Temple, Drexel

BU, UMD, Jefferson,

North Shore/LIJ, RWJ

G town

 

[UofM527]

Alright, I'll both play the game & ask for feedback with the places I've been!
Interests: Open, but Pulm/CC & Cardio probably at the top right now - pretty set on making a career in academics after fellowship

Tiers In Order of Program Strength
Michigan/Cornell/Vanderbilt/Yale
----------------------------
UVA/Pitt/Emory/UAB
----------------------------
Case/OSU
----------------------------
Wake/CCF

Tiers of How I Tentatively Want to Rank
Pitt/Michigan/Yale
----------------------------
UVA/Vanderbilt/Case/Emory
----------------------------
Cornell/UAB/OSU
----------------------------
Wake/CCF

Appreciate any overall thoughts/opinions!! Especially would like thoughts on Pitt, as I clearly like it quite a bit and will rank it quite highly, but I am internally struggling a bit, as it is difficult to get a good grasp of Pitt from these boards/its fellowship match is good, but so many choose to stay at Pitt is a bit tough to really evaluate! Like as someone who loves Michigan as well, am I doing myself any disservice for future career options if Pitt ends up above Mich!? Thanks guys

 

[justanotherapp]

Interested in cardiology.
Would like to be in a big city (NYC, Chicago, LA). Program with good work/life balance.
Any input appreciated, thank you!

University of washington
UPitt
Cornell
NYU
Northwestern
University of Chicago
Cedars-Sinai
Yale
Jefferson
Boston University
Dartmouth

 

[livinsunny]

Look at me stressing out over my own, pretty similar list and then turning around and giving you advice. But...

For geography + getting into fellowship nationally
1. UCLA / Stanford / ?UCSD (not sure if UCSD belongs here)
2. BIDMC / WashU
3. Northwestern / UChicago
4. Everything else
====
If you would be happy staying in-house or regionally for fellowship, you would be FINE with this list
1. UCLA / Stanford
2. UCSD
3. Cedars-Sinai
4. UC Irvine / UC Davis
5. UCLA Harbor / UCLA Olive View
6. Scripps
7. BIDMC / WashU / Northwestern / UChicago

If location is so important to you, somewhere like Cedars can get you into fellowship at UCLA, or Irvine, or UCSD, or wherever... You have lots of good options.

Thanks for your help! I know this process is excrutiating. I hope we both find everything we want in a residency program.