The limited value of the pharmacy profession is now being put on full display

[deleted562805]

There is so much stupidity in this thread.



Wrong. There is literally no advantage to being a PharmD/PA over just being a PA. Programs who offer both are taking advantage of people who had too bad of grades to get into a regular stand-alone program. There may be a small market for this, just like there is a market for Caribbean medical schools, but overall there will be very few programs offering a combo PharmD/PA.



This is sad (and the stupidity is in the clinical pharmacists who can't verify orders or check IV's. I get that they might be a little rusty, but it's like riding a bike, they should be able to quickly jump back into it. If they can't, that speaks poorly of their school and residency.



Depends on how many pharmacists die of COVID.



California is the only state where hospitals pharmacists make more than retail pharmacists (because CA is one of the few places where pharmacists are unionized.) Retail salaries have always been higher then hospital, and they always will be. Because retail is almost all *for profit*, and a good portion of hospitals are *non profit*. The only reason hospital salaries are currently as high as they are, is because hospitals had to greatly up their pharmacist salaries during the shortage of the 2000's, in order to get any pharmacists to work for them. It was not uncommon then, to go to a retail interview, get a job offer in writing, show it to management and ask for a raise. Management would never be able to match the retail offer, but they would give across the board raises, because they realize $10 - $15/hr more would cause them to lose a lot of pharmacists.



This is so true! Almost no employer work sponsors pharmacists anymore, because the paperwork isn't worth it unless there is a real need, and there is obviously no need as there is no shortage of pharmacists in the US.



Yeah, I don't think this was ever true. But no chains are sponsoring foreign pharmacists these days, they have stopped sponsoring the ones who were already here and working.



This is true. But the other side of the coin, there are always pharmacists who die young. I can think of several pharmacists I've worked with throughout the years who died young (<50 years.) At least one even in their early 20's. Sure maybe statistically, I'm likely to live to old age and need to retire. But realistically? I don't regret my decision to save a moderate minimum for retire, and enjoy my living in the present.



Umm....you do realize the average PA/NP does not earn that? They are offering that much, because they need them to working with highly infectious patients with minimal protective gear. It's called hazard pay. Sure, they will make bank if they survive it, but some of them are going to die. It's a lottery where the loser gets death, and many people would rather not play the lottery, that is why they have to pay so much to get people to agree to play it.


And as for the OP....like other's have mentioned, what does the coronavirus have to do with pharmacist worth? Nobody is hiring physical therapists or sending them to the front lines either, it doesn't mean physical therapy don't have worth. You can make the argument that in a "war-time" situation, the pharmacist isn't needed, but you could say that about ALOT of jobs. Which is why so many non-pharmacist people aren't working AT ALL now. It doesn't mean that there is a real need and want for the goods and services those jobs provide. It just means in a "war-time" survival situation, nobody is focusing on those goods and services. There is no reason to think we will stay in this "war-time" situation forever. The absolute worst estimate I've heard is 18 months, but I think it's likely things will stabilize before then.

Actually there is a advantage of PharmD/PA. A PA knows less than a Physician when it comes to medications and pharmacology. With a good solid foundation of pharmacology, you could bring value more than just a regular PA. There is no tangible advantage of PharmD/ MD though.

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[BidingMyTime]

Actually there is a advantage of PharmD/PA. A PA knows less than a Physician when it comes to medications and pharmacology. With a good solid foundation of pharmacology, you could bring value more than just a regular PA. There is no tangible advantage of PharmD/ MD though.

There is always value in more knowledge of anything. But there is no financial advantage, and no job/career advantage, in being both a PharmD and PA. PA's would be far better served by learning pharmacology on their own, then by paying an expensive tuition to get a degree that has no direct benefits.

 

[BidingMyTime]

.But the fact of the matter is that they won't be able to so they will always have dependencies on physicians. It's a vicious cycle for pharmacists.

In the US, not in other countries. Obviously (to everyone but the APHA), provider status will never happen. That doesn't mean that there aren't other meaningful changes that can happen in professional status.

Go to the pharmacy sub on Reddit and you will see threads complaining about this every day...

Pharmacists are complaining about other pharmacists pretending to be fake doctors? Maybe I'm lucky, I've worked with some real psychopaths before, but I've never worked with anyone who made a big show out of being "doctor."

Matter of fact I read somewhere that pharmacists rolled up under the department of education and not the department of health in NYC. If the "general public" knew what a "clinical pharmacist" does, then we might have gotten provider status by now (not that I think clinical pharmacists are worth much, but it at least paints the profession in a different light).

Pretty sure that most of the "general public" didn't approve bank bail-outs in 2008, but that is what we got. Politicians listen to their lobbyists, they could care less about what the general public thinks of them.

This forum is a U.S. forum and we are obviously talking about U.S. PharmD's here, not Canadian PharmD's or African PharmD's. Not a relevant argument.

It's relevant in that we can learn from examples in other countries.

Of course every job has overlap with another job, but I'm talking about the DEGREE of overlap. Almost every health care job requires some level of clerical duties but for pharmacists 95% of that time is spent doing clerical things (intaking and processing orders), while, say, an attending physician spends most of their time teaching and consulting (because the residents and students conduct the interviews, work up the patients and do a lot of that grunt work). So that is exactly why pharmacy is doomed as a profession, because most of the components of pharmacy can be "done by someone else with a different job" i.e. techs and clerks.

If this were true, then retail and hospital corporation would have paid politicians to get rid of pharmacist licensing years ago, and pharmacists would no longer exist.

Optometrists are not mid-level ophthalmologists because ophthalmologists are not "outsourcing" their duties to optometrists, ophthalmologists do not "supervise" optometrists and the two do not practice in the same office/environment. Doing vision checks and prescribing contacts/glasses was never in the repertoire of ophthalmologists, who deal with treating actual medical conditions of the eye with meds or surgery. This in contrast to the MD-PA relationships or Pharmacist-pharm tech relationships.

Well then, I guess NP's aren't mid-levels either, since in many states they practice without any oversight. And every ophthalmologist I have went to, employed optometrists in his office to deal with glasses and contacts.

Your argument doesn't make sense. When I walk into a doctor's office it is obvious who is the doctor that is going to talk to you and make the recommendation and who is the assistant that is going to measure your weight or fill out a form. This isn't a "depiction in my own mind," it's reality. In contrast, if I walk into a pharmacy I can't tell who the pharmacist is, unless all the staff had color-coded uniforms. Plus the pharmacist may or may not be the one who greets you when you walk up to the counter - I guarantee you that your doctor will not be the one greeting you at the receptionist's desk when you go to an appointment.

No, recognizing of a professional is not always obvious. Lots of stories about male nurses, or even male nurses aides, being recognized as doctors by patients, regardless of what they are doing/wearing, and the converse, female doctors being recognized as nurses, again regardless of what they are doing. And "uniform" is a necessary part of most jobs....I'm pretty sure you wouldn't recognize the CEO from the janitor of a company, if b oth were dressed the same.

How else would you measure how the economy is doing then? Looking at the stock market is the easiest, quickest way of making that judgement.

Unemployment rates, population or migration into or out of a town/county/state, % of population on state aid, # of business licenses in a city increasing or decreasing, as someone else mentioned fuel rate usage. There are plenty of ways to measure how an economy is doing, ways that actually correlate to the economy, rather than the stock market.

 

[Mambo#5]

Right the company I work for. I also live in the Midwest. I keep in touch with my past students. I would have heard about a drastic drop if it happened last fall.

Don't get me wrong, we will hit $45 but it's not going to be that quickly. Right now we're still in the 50s.

If you don’t believe that it’s because you’re making much more than what the market is offering now. And if that is so, from my experience and what I’ve seen you’re next on the chopping block.

 

[wagrxm2000]

If you don’t believe that it’s because you’re making much more than what the market is offering now. And if that is so, from my experience and what I’ve seen you’re next on the chopping block.

Hmm have you ever seen someone reviewed at a 5 before?

That's me

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

In the US, not in other countries. Obviously (to everyone but the APHA), provider status will never happen. That doesn't mean that there aren't other meaningful changes that can happen in professional status.

I fail to see how there can be any meaningful changes to this profession without a complete redefining of the pharmacist's role in the healthcare ecosystem which is going to require reimbursement at the level of a midlevel or better (which is directly tied to professional status). By the way, I am not counting things like improved work conditions (getting a chair to sit on etc.) as "meaningful changes" because they don't address the main issues that will overcome this profession such as the impact of saturation and the impact of technology/automation.

Pharmacists are complaining about other pharmacists pretending to be fake doctors? Maybe I'm lucky, I've worked with some real psychopaths before, but I've never worked with anyone who made a big show out of being "doctor."

That comment was about hazard pay. But the same "fake doctor" thing applies to Reddit - here's one from yesterday which is another one of those "I'm a doctor, I got a doctorate of pharmacy. Also I am THE medication expert so respect me!" reruns. Enjoy.

Pretty sure that most of the "general public" didn't approve bank bail-outs in 2008, but that is what we got. Politicians listen to their lobbyists, they could care less about what the general public thinks of them.

Pharmacy has no lobbyists AND politicians don't know what pharmacists do besides dispense drugs. It's a lose-lose situation.

If this were true, then retail and hospital corporation would have paid politicians to get rid of pharmacist licensing years ago, and pharmacists would no longer exist.

Historically, pharmacy existed solely to dispense drugs and therefore the pharmacist's role was (and still is) tied to that. But the big difference between then and now is technology. There were no automated pill counters, mail order or robots back then. So companies couldn't simply "get rid of pharmacists" back then because then you'd have nobody counting pills. The next best strategy if they can't get rid of pharmacists (who were getting paid a lot because there was a true shortage) is to have the schools pump out as many students as possible to flood the market with pharmacists and drive down wages, and they have accomplished just that.

Well then, I guess NP's aren't mid-levels either, since in many states they practice without any oversight.

If pharmacy had strong lobbying like nurses do, then credibility and enhanced scope of practice should have came when we made the BSPharm->PharmD switch just like how nursing has evolved from RNs to now NPs. Instead, pharmacy is now pushing for "advanced practice pharmacists" who at the end of the day still can't practice independently. So I will always view NPs as "what could have been" for pharmacists - too bad that ship has sailed.

And every ophthalmologist I have went to, employed optometrists in his office to deal with glasses and contacts.

I change optometrists almost every year and I've been to independents, small chains, national chains, malls etc. At none of those offices were there an ophthalmologist. Now, if your optometrist works in a health system/academia then I can see an optometrist working closer with an ophthalmologist but that would still be the exception rather than the norm.

No, recognizing of a professional is not always obvious. Lots of stories about male nurses, or even male nurses aides, being recognized as doctors by patients, regardless of what they are doing/wearing, and the converse, female doctors being recognized as nurses, again regardless of what they are doing. And "uniform" is a necessary part of most jobs....I'm pretty sure you wouldn't recognize the CEO from the janitor of a company, if b oth were dressed the same.

The fact of the matter is that everyone uses context clues to assess who's who when purchasing a good/service with what they're wearing being one of the factors. But nobody is going to walk into a doctor's office and think that the person sitting at the front desk taking phone calls and telling people to fill out these forms is the doctor even if they are wearing a white coat.

Unemployment rates, population or migration into or out of a town/county/state, % of population on state aid, # of business licenses in a city increasing or decreasing, as someone else mentioned fuel rate usage. There are plenty of ways to measure how an economy is doing, ways that actually correlate to the economy, rather than the stock market.

Go back to my original comment about the economy and replace every instance of "economy" with "unemployment rates," "population migration/immigration", "% on state aid", "% business licenses increasing/decreasing" and the exact same argument is true. We are setting record negative levels in all these metrics.

 

[deleted562805]

There is always value in more knowledge of anything. But there is no financial advantage, and no job/career advantage, in being both a PharmD and PA. PA's would be far better served by learning pharmacology on their own, then by paying an expensive tuition to get a degree that has no direct benefits.

True, there is no financial advantage or career advantage compared to a average PA. There is definitely a career and financial advantage compared to pharmacist that did PGY-1/2/3 residency:
1. Better pay, especially with hazard pay from COVID-19
2. Hours not getting cut, in fact hours would be increasing for PA, in this pandemic
3. Prescriptive authority and the ability to utilize pharmacology skills even more so than a pharmacist with PGY-1/2/3 residency.
4. Can have my own private practice in states that grant independent license or work with a physician contracting group compared to a clinical pharmacist with PGy-1/2/3 residency stuck in the hospital basement as a employer of a hospital

 

[owlegrad]

Wait, you are an expert on how ophthalmologists work but you never realized dental hygienists exist and do cleanings?

 

[BidingMyTime]

That comment was about hazard pay. But the same "fake doctor" thing applies to Reddit - here's one from yesterday which is another one of those "I'm a doctor, I got a doctorate of pharmacy. Also I am THE medication expert so respect me!" reruns. Enjoy.

Yes, because how people act on reddit is how they act in real life. Always. 100%.

Pharmacy has no lobbyists AND politicians don't know what pharmacists do besides dispense drugs. It's a lose-lose situation.

Technically pharmacy has lobbyists, just not any meaningful lobbyists. What this means is, pharmacy will continue on the way it is continuing on. Pharmacists as a job/career are not going to disappear and be replaced by automation or NP's or anyone else, which is what it seems like you are saying. Sure, there will be a lot of graduates never actually working as pharmacists (just as there are a lot of law school graduates who never actually work as lawyers,) and the pay will go decrease, but pharmacist jobs will still exist, in all the areas they currently exist in.

I change optometrists almost every year and I've been to independents, small chains, national chains, malls etc. At none of those offices were there an ophthalmologist. Now, if your optometrist works in a health system/academia then I can see an optometrist working closer with an ophthalmologist but that would still be the exception rather than the norm.

I don't doubt that optometrist practice independently, what I said was that every ophthalmologist I've been to has employed optometrists. These optometrists aren't advertising separately, because they are working for and with the doctor. Next time you want to change, call up an opthmologist and ask if they have any optometrists working there.

The fact of the matter is that everyone uses context clues to assess who's who when purchasing a good/service with what they're wearing being one of the factors. But nobody is going to walk into a doctor's office and think that the person sitting at the front desk taking phone calls and telling people to fill out these forms is the doctor even if they are wearing a white coat.

Depends on your area. There are still old-timey, half-retired physicians who do their own front end work all the time, or take it one when their 1 employee an MA takes the day off. I can think of 2 doctors in my area who always, or often answer their own calls. And an NP who does the same. Life outside the big cities is often a lot different than inside.

Go back to my original comment about the economy and replace every instance of "economy" with "unemployment rates," "population migration/immigration", "% on state aid", "% business licenses increasing/decreasing" and the exact same argument is true. We are setting record negative levels in all these metrics.

Yes, but there is every reason to think all of these stats are temporary, and that once the stay-at-home order is lifted May 1st (or whenever it is lifted), that employment will immediately start increasing, and continuing increasing, and that % on state aid will decrease, etc. The stock market is not going to be as quick to rebound (in my opinion, but I'm not a stock market expert.) But the economy when measuring actual goods/services produced and people working will quickly rebound.

True, there is no financial advantage or career advantage compared to a average PA. There is definitely a career and financial advantage compared to pharmacist that did PGY-1/2/3 residency:

True, but we were talking about people going into a combined PharmD/PA program. I can understand why a pharmacist might decide to go back and be a PA. I can understand why someone would pick being a PA over a PharmD. But it makes zero financial sense to go into a PharmD/PA program, pick 1 or the other.....and sure, if someone later thinks they made the wrong choice, then they can go and back and do the other. But 2 pay professional tuition for 2 different professions upfront, knowing that they will only practice in one of those professions? That is colleges taking advantage of gullible students.

 

[wazoodog]

A somewhat interesting article on how pharmacy services were leveraged in another place...

Opinion | How South Korea Solved Its Face Mask Shortage

 

[deleted562805]

Yes, because how people act on reddit is how they act in real life. Always. 100%.



Technically pharmacy has lobbyists, just not any meaningful lobbyists. What this means is, pharmacy will continue on the way it is continuing on. Pharmacists as a job/career are not going to disappear and be replaced by automation or NP's or anyone else, which is what it seems like you are saying. Sure, there will be a lot of graduates never actually working as pharmacists (just as there are a lot of law school graduates who never actually work as lawyers,) and the pay will go decrease, but pharmacist jobs will still exist, in all the areas they currently exist in.



I don't doubt that optometrist practice independently, what I said was that every ophthalmologist I've been to has employed optometrists. These optometrists aren't advertising separately, because they are working for and with the doctor. Next time you want to change, call up an opthmologist and ask if they have any optometrists working there.



Depends on your area. There are still old-timey, half-retired physicians who do their own front end work all the time, or take it one when their 1 employee an MA takes the day off. I can think of 2 doctors in my area who always, or often answer their own calls. And an NP who does the same. Life outside the big cities is often a lot different than inside.



Yes, but there is every reason to think all of these stats are temporary, and that once the stay-at-home order is lifted May 1st (or whenever it is lifted), that employment will immediately start increasing, and continuing increasing, and that % on state aid will decrease, etc. The stock market is not going to be as quick to rebound (in my opinion, but I'm not a stock market expert.) But the economy when measuring actual goods/services produced and people working will quickly rebound.



True, but we were talking about people going into a combined PharmD/PA program. I can understand why a pharmacist might decide to go back and be a PA. I can understand why someone would pick being a PA over a PharmD. But it makes zero financial sense to go into a PharmD/PA program, pick 1 or the other.....and sure, if someone later thinks they made the wrong choice, then they can go and back and do the other. But 2 pay professional tuition for 2 different professions upfront, knowing that they will only practice in one of those professions? That is colleges taking advantage of gullible students.

True. Rutgers I believe created a PharmD to MD program to help students get jobs allegedly

 

[Pharmsssdoc2011]

Pharmacy schools will only cut back if other health professionals start out earning pharmacists.Why go into such debt to be a pharmacist when
you can get out in 4 years as a RN and pull in just as much. The wage differential is becoming smaller and smaller.

I’m beginning to think I should have just sucked it up and became an RN. I didn’t because I didn’t want to touch people.

 

[PieRoller]

LMAO, you did not and do not need peer-reviewed pubs to get a green card as a retail pharmacist

You are correct. I worked with several foreign pharmacists in the Northwest who were here on an H-1B visa. I‘m talking about big retail chains like Safeway and Kroger (Fred Meyer). They were always good pharmacists with a good work ethic.
It became a little thorny, though, when the days of cutbacks arrived. The H-1B worker on our staff was guaranteed forty hours by law whereas those of us who were more senior, but not H-1B, had our hours cut.
The original intent of H-1B was to bring in workers with a very special skill set. Unfortunately it was abused by several employers, including Disney.

 

[PieRoller]

Well usually when you decide to quit a job you have to go out looking for another one, even if you are over the age of 50. And yes, ageism is a real thing. So add that to the saturation problem and you got yourself one heck of a profession.

Yes, indeed! Don’t ask me how I know.
I got one of my best jobs by showing up in person to enquire. She hired me *because* I showed up in person.
Tip: Networking is not something that occurs only the internet.

 

[Argentium]

Surprised this hasn't been brought up yet, but i know many physicians that are even starting to get their hours cut and salaries reduced. Hospitals are getting killed with the profitable elective procedures getting put on hold and the unprofitable emergency services / COVID exploding in volume.

 

[mentos]

You can tell how well an economy does based on how much growth in fossil fuel consumption there is

What will happen in a few decades when everyone owns an electric vehicle?

 

[Sine Cura]

How is most electricity generated?

 

[owlegrad]

How is most electricity generated?

Is this a trick question? In 2017 it was coal but I doubt anyone thinks investing in coal futures is a bright idea.

 

[wagrxm2000]

Is this a trick question? In 2017 it was coal but I doubt anyone thinks investing in coal futures is a bright idea.

I'll take two shares of the green new deal (GND ticker symbol?) please

 

[Sine Cura]

I guess it's a trick question if you don't believe in physical limits

 

[owlegrad]

I guess it's a trick question if you don't believe in physical limits

Again if you had asked in 2018 “how is most electricity generated” the answer would have been”coal”. Is coal a good investment though?

 

[Sine Cura]

And you are speaking of markets vs the actual economy. Upscaling "renewables" will still require fossil fuel inputs (to extract resources required for infrastructure) and renewables will not support exponential growth of energy consumption.

 

[Seriously Serious]

The dual pharmd/pa programs are going to become more prevalent

A dual PharmD/PA just sounds like a deconstructed MD... what's the point?

 

[Bubadorus]

In times of crisis such as this COVID-19 pandemic, one only needs to look at who the government, public health agencies and hospitals are interacting with and calling upon to respond to understand the limited role a pharmacist plays in the healthcare ecosystem. I do not make this post to beat a dead horse, but many of the things that have been echoed on this forum are now becoming extremely apparent (if it isn't already apparent).

Some observations I've made through the last few days:

1) Pharmacy is saturated with an oversupply of workers, yet in a time of public health crisis there is no increase in demand for pharmacists to aid in relief efforts because the PharmD curriculum is irrelevant, "pharmacist skill sets" are not transferrable and pharmacists are not recognized as even midlevel providers.

In California, cities are hosting job fairs and hiring qualified/licensed nurses ON THE SPOT because there is a surge in demand for "frontline healthcare staff." Meanwhile, job fairs for pharmacists have been nonexistant and they can't even volunteer with relief efforts because they don't even have the basic medical training to even screen/triage patients. Moreover, I only hear of more and more pharmacists (who work in hospitals) being SENT HOME as opposed to working more hours due to demand. Can you imagine doctors or nurses "working from home" in a time like this?

2) Even if there were an expanded role for pharmacists during this public health crisis, we do not have a voice to represent the issues specific to pharmacy and therefore any progress/relief pharmacists get will be a result of the trickle-down that comes through policy work from non-pharmacy (medical and nursing) national organizations.

If you've been watching the news then you'd know that the President has been meeting with not just legislators, private sector/commercial companies but also healthcare groups to talk through issues that impact them. Today, he met with the heads of the NP groups to listen to their concerns about PPEs and ventilators and I can't help but think that if pharmacists were actually relevant then they should be getting a meeting with the President. The only time pharmacy has been mentioned so far is in the context of developing new therapeutics (which isn't pharmacy) and converting select retail sites to serve as collection sites for corona testing. Tremendous failure by APhA, AACP, ASHP etc to represent our profession and lobby for an increased scope of practice (this is a great time for that) in a time like this.

3. Pharmacy is possibly the healthcare profession (maybe I should call it a pseudo-healthcare profession) with the biggest passive-aggressive whiners in it and most pharmacists lack perspective.

I don't know how many posts I've seen in the last week about the lack of PPEs and how we should be "paid more" because we deal with patients who potentially have corona every day. I've laid out an argument elsewhere that a bag boy at a supermarket is probably exposed to more corona patients than a retail pharmacist so I won't go through that again, but it is statements like these that reveals peoples' true colors and if we all truly went into healthcare/pharmacy to "help people" and not for the paycheck, people would not say things like this. In any industry, the "highest risk" workers are not the ones getting paid the most, and we have it good compared to real providers, so for those that keep complaining about lack of PPE/hazard pay etc., just know that if nurses/physicians aren't even getting adequate protection or pay, then there is no way that pharmacy will get it so stop whining about it.

What do you all think?

In times of crisis such as this COVID-19 pandemic, one only needs to look at who the government, public health agencies and hospitals are interacting with and calling upon to respond to understand the limited role a pharmacist plays in the healthcare ecosystem. I do not make this post to beat a dead horse, but many of the things that have been echoed on this forum are now becoming extremely apparent (if it isn't already apparent).

Some observations I've made through the last few days:

1) Pharmacy is saturated with an oversupply of workers, yet in a time of public health crisis there is no increase in demand for pharmacists to aid in relief efforts because the PharmD curriculum is irrelevant, "pharmacist skill sets" are not transferrable and pharmacists are not recognized as even midlevel providers.

In California, cities are hosting job fairs and hiring qualified/licensed nurses ON THE SPOT because there is a surge in demand for "frontline healthcare staff." Meanwhile, job fairs for pharmacists have been nonexistant and they can't even volunteer with relief efforts because they don't even have the basic medical training to even screen/triage patients. Moreover, I only hear of more and more pharmacists (who work in hospitals) being SENT HOME as opposed to working more hours due to demand. Can you imagine doctors or nurses "working from home" in a time like this?

2) Even if there were an expanded role for pharmacists during this public health crisis, we do not have a voice to represent the issues specific to pharmacy and therefore any progress/relief pharmacists get will be a result of the trickle-down that comes through policy work from non-pharmacy (medical and nursing) national organizations.

If you've been watching the news then you'd know that the President has been meeting with not just legislators, private sector/commercial companies but also healthcare groups to talk through issues that impact them. Today, he met with the heads of the NP groups to listen to their concerns about PPEs and ventilators and I can't help but think that if pharmacists were actually relevant then they should be getting a meeting with the President. The only time pharmacy has been mentioned so far is in the context of developing new therapeutics (which isn't pharmacy) and converting select retail sites to serve as collection sites for corona testing. Tremendous failure by APhA, AACP, ASHP etc to represent our profession and lobby for an increased scope of practice (this is a great time for that) in a time like this.

3. Pharmacy is possibly the healthcare profession (maybe I should call it a pseudo-healthcare profession) with the biggest passive-aggressive whiners in it and most pharmacists lack perspective.

I don't know how many posts I've seen in the last week about the lack of PPEs and how we should be "paid more" because we deal with patients who potentially have corona every day. I've laid out an argument elsewhere that a bag boy at a supermarket is probably exposed to more corona patients than a retail pharmacist so I won't go through that again, but it is statements like these that reveals peoples' true colors and if we all truly went into healthcare/pharmacy to "help people" and not for the paycheck, people would not say things like this. In any industry, the "highest risk" workers are not the ones getting paid the most, and we have it good compared to real providers, so for those that keep complaining about lack of PPE/hazard pay etc., just know that if nurses/physicians aren't even getting adequate protection or pay, then there is no way that pharmacy will get it so stop whining about it.

What do you all think?

There is not doubt the pharmacy is an over saturated profession. To say that pharmacy offers no value to in COVID pandemic is simply not a correct statement. Vast majority of patients with COVID don't get admitted. They get scripts for inhalers and etcs. Who is there to fill one? Who is there to instruct pt who to use it with a spacer? We are. There is no proven therapy yet for COVID. MD are asked to work outside of their usual specialties. It is ever more important to take an extra second to review patient's med profile. Retail pharmacies are getting slammed with work. Sick people may or may not go grocery shopping but they will definitely go to pharmacy. COVID is rapidly changing the healthcare landscape. People are speaking out and expressing their concerns. Other professionals do not know what we do. Speak up is not whining. Speaking up is how lobbyist doing their work and is how rules get change. You can make yourself useful and relavant. Widespread testing is in the works and will one day hopefully be implented. Drive thru testing can happen in pharmacy. When vaccination comes out eventually, pharmacist can also give them. Evolve and survive. Don't be a dinosaur.

 

[Mambo#5]

There is not doubt the pharmacy is an over saturated profession. To say that pharmacy offers no value to in COVID pandemic is simply not a correct statement. Vast majority of patients with COVID don't get admitted. They get scripts for inhalers and etcs. Who is there to fill one? Who is there to instruct pt who to use it with a spacer? We are. There is no proven therapy yet for COVID. MD are asked to work outside of their usual specialties. It is ever more important to take an extra second to review patient's med profile. Retail pharmacies are getting slammed with work. Sick people may or may not go grocery shopping but they will definitely go to pharmacy. COVID is rapidly changing the healthcare landscape. People are speaking out and expressing their concerns. Other professionals do not know what we do. Speak up is not whining. Speaking up is how lobbyist doing their work and is how rules get change. You can make yourself useful and relavant. Widespread testing is in the works and will one day hopefully be implented. Drive thru testing can happen in pharmacy. When vaccination comes out eventually, pharmacist can also give them. Evolve and survive. Don't be a dinosaur.

True. But money talks. And in this country the corporations buy the lobbyists and make the laws. If it were otherwise there wouldn’t be a CVS or Walgreens on each block, there would be limits. If it were otherwise CVS wouldn’t have been allowed to buy Caremark and now Aetna.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

There is not doubt the pharmacy is an over saturated profession. To say that pharmacy offers no value to in COVID pandemic is simply not a correct statement.

Sorry to burst your bubble but your arguments below don't hold up so keep on trying...

Vast majority of patients with COVID don't get admitted. They get scripts for inhalers and etcs. Who is there to fill one? Who is there to instruct pt who to use it with a spacer? We are.
There is no proven therapy yet for COVID.

You just said it yourself that there is no therapy for COVID so the pharmacists' role in treating COVID is ZERO. To say that pharmacists play a role by filling scripts for inhalers is a red herring argument because there are hundreds of thousands of patients who have asthma/COPD and are going to get those scripts and this has nothing to do with COVID. And to your question of "who will fill those scripts even though they're irrelevant to this discussion?" Pharmacy technicians or machines aka mail order...

MD are asked to work outside of their usual specialties.

And pharmacists are not because their skillset is too linear. What's your point?

It is ever more important to take an extra second to review patient's med profile.

Just like filling inhalers has nothing to do with COVID, Reviewing med profiles has nothing to do with COVID.

Retail pharmacies are getting slammed with work.

Uh no, they're not. Where do you live, in a cave? Retail pharmacies have been CUTTING store hours and hospital pharmacists are being SENT HOME as volumes have gone down after an initial 1-2 week surge.

Sick people may or may not go grocery shopping but they will definitely go to pharmacy.

Wrong. I can't believe you think meds are more important than eating. Meds only affect quality of life. If you don't eat, you die within days. If you test COVID positive with symptoms (which is what I'm assuming you mean when you say "sick"), then you literally have to quarantine at home BUT you can still go grocery shopping so of course you will go grocery shopping. And we've already established that there is no treatment for COVID so they will not be "going to the pharmacy to get their COVID treatment." So it is in reality the other way around. Sick people may or may not go to the pharmacy but they will definitely go grocery shopping...

COVID is rapidly changing the healthcare landscape.

And exposing pharmacists for the lack of value they bring. Look, I do think pharmacy as a FIELD has an important role/value in healthcare, but PHARMACISTS do not (relative to what they're paid which is why salaries are dropping exponentially). There are plenty of players in the field of pharmacy which make it tick - pharmacy technicians, manufacturers, truck drivers who deliver meds, etc. But what role do pharmacists play outside dispensing, which was the first and only service they are tied to? None. And you're seeing this now as many organizations have been cutting non-dispensing functions of pharmacists. Just goes to show that pharmacist services are "nice to have" but not "essential" so if your value is still singularly tied to dispensing and automation is going to displace dispensing soon then good luck trying to find your identity as a profession.

People are speaking out and expressing their concerns. Other professionals do not know what we do. Speak up is not whining. Speaking up is how lobbyist doing their work and is how rules get change.

"Other professionals do not know what we do" is a self-indictment and confession that this profession is obsolete. If pharmacists are truly valuable players on the healthcare team then while I can understand politicians/lay people not knowing what we do, I would certainly expect OTHER HEALTHCARE PROFESSIONALS who are supposed to see us in action and be our strongest advocates to know what we do. But instead even they don't know what we do, and not because our skillsets are niche but because most of what we do is either FEATHERBEDDING or things that any lay people can also do (put pills in a bottle and take phone calls).

Second point: the difference between speaking up and whining is that in both cases you are being vocal about something. But the massive difference between the two is that when you whine you are EXPECTING something because you THINK YOU DESERVE IT. So yes, I think pharmacists are not just "speaking up" but are whining and need to stop thinking that they should get hazard pay and be prioritized at the same level as doctors and nurses who are the real front-line healthcare professionals that are actually treating COVID patients and risking their lives every day.

You can make yourself useful and relavant.

Wrong. You do what you're paid to do and for pharmacists that's dispensing drugs. When you get hired to stock shelves at the supermarket then you... stock shelves at the supermarket. When you get hired to file papers as a clerk then you... file papers as a clerk. When you get hired to fix someone's toilet then you... fix their toilet. Nobody is going to write someone a blank check and let them figure out for themselves how to be "useful and relevant." Pharmacists been trying to do this for decades now and the best they've come up with is MTM and provider status, both of which aren't even unique to pharmacists so if you consider that making ourselves "useful and relevant" then you must be either a pharmacy school dean or a foreign grad who has no idea how the healthcare system in the U.S. works.

Widespread testing is in the works and will one day hopefully be implented. Drive thru testing can happen in pharmacy. When vaccination comes out eventually, pharmacist can also give them.

The irony in your statement is that most pharmacists go into pharmacy so they don't have to "touch people" and yet those same people are now the ones saying that they should be the ones doing COVID testing and giving vaccinations. And what you're saying are all hypotheticals.

Evolve and survive. Don't be a dinosaur.

As mentioned above, this profession has not evolved and most of us are still dinosaurs that will soon be extinct. But those of us who "evolve and survive" are not going to thrive, but instead do so as parasites -- continually feeding off the life force of others but doing just enough to avoid surveillance.

 

[sfachine]

There is not doubt the pharmacy is an over saturated profession. To say that pharmacy offers no value to in COVID pandemic is simply not a correct statement. Vast majority of patients with COVID don't get admitted. They get scripts for inhalers and etcs. Who is there to fill one? Who is there to instruct pt who to use it with a spacer? We are. There is no proven therapy yet for COVID. MD are asked to work outside of their usual specialties. It is ever more important to take an extra second to review patient's med profile. Retail pharmacies are getting slammed with work. Sick people may or may not go grocery shopping but they will definitely go to pharmacy. COVID is rapidly changing the healthcare landscape. People are speaking out and expressing their concerns. Other professionals do not know what we do. Speak up is not whining. Speaking up is how lobbyist doing their work and is how rules get change. You can make yourself useful and relavant. Widespread testing is in the works and will one day hopefully be implented. Drive thru testing can happen in pharmacy. When vaccination comes out eventually, pharmacist can also give them. Evolve and survive. Don't be a dinosaur.

 

[sozetone]

Here is the latest CPJE and NAPLEX pass rate which shows failure rate for foreign graduates is 2x of California school graduates:

View attachment 299732

It is true that some foreign graduates are up to par but as a whole, they are not.

Looks like the state test is giving people trouble.......its always the hardest

 

[sozetone]

This inflationary bubble started in the 80's with a shortfall of pharmacists.....and a surge in growth of pharmacies. They were adding them weekly ya know? this is a market correction. NOW, it's over-saturated and they are struggling to make a profit, so demand has gone down for pharmacists. Some of us got in while the picking was good, and are riding the gravy train until the bitter end, and some will struggle until it all implodes.

 

[sfachine]

This inflationary bubble started in the 80's with a shortfall of pharmacists.....and a surge in growth of pharmacies. They were adding them weekly ya know? this is a market correction. NOW, it's over-saturated and they are struggling to make a profit, so demand has gone down for pharmacists. Some of us got in while the picking was good, and are riding the gravy train until the bitter end, and some will struggle until it all implodes.

Retail is no doubt contracting.No stores no jobs.The major players are contracting and consolidating.Will other pharmacy areas make up for retail AND the 15000 per year new pharmacists. I can't see how.Supply must go down a long way to reach an equilibrium.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

I always assumed this is how you do it. You go right up to the boss, ask if there are any open positions, and if there are ask for an application otherwise just leave your info, say thank you, and leave. But apparently I have been applying for jobs very wrong and people tell me not to do this. Am I being rude by doing this? I sort of feel like I am on crazy pills with this

Times have changed. It used to be that people who do this legitimately "stood out" and would therefore be given more consideration to potential jobs, because two decades ago when there was truly a shortage of pharmacists people were getting jobs by simply cold-applying to jobs, so going in person was something out of the ordinary.

But now that there's 15,000 new grads per year walking around looking for jobs, going in person to ask about jobs is going to come off as annoying more than anything (unless you worked in an environment that nobody would think to go inquire about jobs in person). I mean, just imagine getting asked several times a day at the consultation window about job openings... my standard answer became "look on the company website and apply through there."

 

[DagS132]

Times have changed. It used to be that people who do this legitimately "stood out" and would therefore be given more consideration to potential jobs, because two decades ago when there was truly a shortage of pharmacists people were getting jobs by simply cold-applying to jobs, so going in person was something out of the ordinary.

But now that there's 15,000 new grads per year walking around looking for jobs, going in person to ask about jobs is going to come off as annoying more than anything (unless you worked in an environment that nobody would think to go inquire about jobs in person). I mean, just imagine getting asked several times a day at the consultation window about job openings... my standard answer became "look on the company website and apply through there."

lol, I guess I'm alone on this then. I usually reply with, "I already applied and was just checking to see if the position was taken already." And I usually get told the position was just taken but then a phone call for an interview a few weeks later.

 

[Hedgehog32]

Times have changed. It used to be that people who do this legitimately "stood out" and would therefore be given more consideration to potential jobs, because two decades ago when there was truly a shortage of pharmacists people were getting jobs by simply cold-applying to jobs, so going in person was something out of the ordinary.

But now that there's 15,000 new grads per year walking around looking for jobs, going in person to ask about jobs is going to come off as annoying more than anything (unless you worked in an environment that nobody would think to go inquire about jobs in person). I mean, just imagine getting asked several times a day at the consultation window about job openings... my standard answer became "look on the company website and apply through there."

At the federal facility in an undesirable city I did a few rotations at, they received around 80 applications for the last position they posted. Not only did they say that they don't want to have to deal with people visiting the pharmacy in-person to inquire about job availability, but they also said that they don't even glance over the applications they receive through USAjobs since they usually have someone in mind for the position before the job listing is even posted (e.g., friend/relative/spouse of one of the pharmacists).

 

[PikminOC]

You can tell how well an economy does based on how much growth in fossil fuel consumption there is

Like now?

 

[PikminOC]

Times have changed. It used to be that people who do this legitimately "stood out" and would therefore be given more consideration to potential jobs, because two decades ago when there was truly a shortage of pharmacists people were getting jobs by simply cold-applying to jobs, so going in person was something out of the ordinary.

But now that there's 15,000 new grads per year walking around looking for jobs, going in person to ask about jobs is going to come off as annoying more than anything (unless you worked in an environment that nobody would think to go inquire about jobs in person). I mean, just imagine getting asked several times a day at the consultation window about job openings... my standard answer became "look on the company website and apply through there."

Why was op membership revoked?

 

[pkpd_modeler]

Why was op membership revoked?

don't worry, i am sure he will be back soon, under another pseudonym of course.
basically the mods only want kindly massaging the fragile hearts of prepharms and unemployed/underemployed pharm grads, so no bloody brutal truths from now on.

time has changed, soon sdn will succumb to reddit if the trend continues.
let's ban everyone who speaks the truth lol!

 

[Hedgehog32]

I'm also curious as to why Pharmacy Is A Scam was banned. A lot of what he posted on here (regardless of how negative it may have sounded) closely reflected what I've observed and been told by the pharmacists I've worked with in real-life clinical settings, so IMO he basically only ever spoke the truth.

 

[sozetone]

Times have changed. It used to be that people who do this legitimately "stood out" and would therefore be given more consideration to potential jobs, because two decades ago when there was truly a shortage of pharmacists people were getting jobs by simply cold-applying to jobs, so going in person was something out of the ordinary.

But now that there's 15,000 new grads per year walking around looking for jobs, going in person to ask about jobs is going to come off as annoying more than anything (unless you worked in an environment that nobody would think to go inquire about jobs in person). I mean, just imagine getting asked several times a day at the consultation window about job openings... my standard answer became "look on the company website and apply through there."

I wouldn't totally agree. I sent my resume out to DM's directly in FL and got offers from CVS and Wags (i was considering moving back home last august) that said, I have many years of high performing manager experience on my resume. When they see that you have managed and successfully grown high volume stores, they know your in the NFL.....they are not taking a chance so to speak. So sending resumes randomly to regional or market level (whatever) is a decent strategy if you are a rock star pharm. Problem was i was looking for a staff spot, and i was offered a few actually, but the desirable areas (naples...etc) all wanted to groom me for manager quickly........ i declined all offers nicely and kept the lines open for communication. Nobody wants to manage anymore do they? lol.

 

[Mambo#5]

I wouldn't totally agree. I sent my resume out to DM's directly in FL and got offers from CVS and Wags (i was considering moving back home last august) that said, I have many years of high performing manager experience on my resume. When they see that you have managed and successfully grown high volume stores, they know your in the NFL.....they are not taking a chance so to speak. So sending resumes randomly to regional or market level (whatever) is a decent strategy if you are a rock star pharm. Problem was i was looking for a staff spot, and i was offered a few actually, but the desirable areas (naples...etc) all wanted to groom me for manager quickly........ i declined all offers nicely and kept the lines open for communication. Nobody wants to manage anymore do they? lol.

Naples is now a desirable area????? Lol

 

[Sine Cura]

I'm also curious as to why Pharmacy Is A Scam was banned. A lot of what he posted on here (regardless of how negative it may have sounded) closely reflected what I've observed and been told by the pharmacists I've worked with in real-life clinical settings, so IMO he basically only ever spoke the truth.

Prob this:

If you disagree with someone, be courteous and stay positive in your response. Negativity is harmful to our community. Repeated negative posts will result in removal from our community.

Our Vision, Values, and Policies • Student Doctor Network

 

[pkpd_modeler]

Prob this: Our Vision, Values, and Policies • Student Doctor Network

if truth == negativity and no "negativity" is allowed, we should all just be ass-kissing yes-men mouthpiece of ASHP, ACPE and pharm school admins and pretend pharmacy career is as greatest as ever and lie to ourselves and everyone like the emperor's new clothes. how pathetic.

 

[wagrxm2000]

He had a temper you could tell. Probably said something in a pm to the wrong person.

 

[gwarm01]

Naples is now a desirable area????? Lol

Warm climate, affordable housing, right on the beach. Sign me up.

 

[Mambo#5]

Warm climate, affordable housing, right on the beach. Sign me up.

Have you ever been there? Lol it’s not what you think.

 

[Sine Cura]

Guessing that other guy was pharmacy sucks

 

[gwarm01]

Have you ever been there? Lol it’s not what you think.

I went camping around there once, and spent a week on Marco Island. I think it would be nice for someone like me who enjoys fishing year round. I'd probably be more interested in Cape Coral / Fort Myers though.

 

[sozetone]

Naples is now a desirable area????? Lol

One of the richest cities in FL..... beautiful....yeah hard to land a job in that corner of the state..... i tried.....

 

[sozetone]

Prob this: Our Vision, Values, and Policies • Student Doctor Network

I thought this market forum was designed for us to vent and whine.....no? maybe he was posting too much outside of it.......influencing the newbies ya know? god forbid we help them turn their life around before they enter pharm school.....

 

[Sine Cura]

It's been mentioned before but a lot of marginal applicants are applying because why not? Student loan payments deferred, non-rigorous admissions, maybe the job market for new grads will get better (based on what?). Kind of a hail mary for the marginal types

 

[beautifulrobot]

He had a temper you could tell. Probably said something in a pm to the wrong person.

Yeah, he was probably counseled via PMs several times before being banned as well.