The ultimate COVID thread

[deleted87051]

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Trouble is that Republicans and even most moderate Democrats will forever back up the police, no matter what, because they've bought into the police force being a heroic extension or little brother of the military, and their worshipful support of the military has no bounds.

The standard cop is now armored up like a Starship Trooper and thinks "civilians" are the enemy. The police have become the standing army the founders warned us about. (When was the last time the 101st Airborne beat or killed an American? That's not the army we need to be concerned about.) I'd like to think that the last couple weeks are enlightening more white Americans to the reality that while the police mostly leave us alone, they're not our friends, have never been our friends, and they have no interest or intent or obligation to serve or protect anyone.

If the Republican party continues to self destruct maybe police reform will be the silver lining to what a Democratic president and legislature will do next year.


Also, I'll mention it because I can't help it ... the 2nd Amendment is for black and brown people too. Arm yourselves. Demand carry rights. If you're being hunted, defend yourselves. Quit buying the Democratic line that gun control is for your own good. Gun control has never, ever been anything but a tool to oppress the poor, weak, and helpless.

Black and brown people arming themselves is called suicide by cop. A bunch of white 2Aers can bring their guns and stand around in a statehouse. If black and brown people brought guns to the current protests, what would be the outcome? It would be used as justification for more police shootings. “Look he had a gun. We were defending ourselves from the armed black man.”

The man in this video is lucky in so many ways....

Man who pointed Glock at 'Don't Shoot PDX' protesters banned from owning guns

Michael Aaron Strickland was found guilty of unlawful use of a weapon and other counts for pointing his Glock semi-automatic handgun at 10 protesters in downtown Portland last July.

www.oregonlive.com

 

[pgg]

Black and brown people arming themselves is called suicide by cop. A bunch of white 2Aers can bring their guns and stand around in a statehouse. If black and brown people brought guns to the current protests, what would be the outcome?

The Black Panthers did that in Sacramento in 1967, and the result was the near-immediate passage of a gun control law that banned open carry. But @Arch Guillotti will tell you that gun control isn't racist. 😉 It's all racist and classist. It started before we were even a country, e.g. the 1712 passage of "An Act for Preventing Negroes Insurrections". Before the Civil War we had the "Black Codes", written for obvious reasons. In 1866, a whole year after the Civil War ended, Alabama made it a crime to sell, give, or lend any gun to any black for any reason. The 1934 NFA included sound suppressors not because of all the James Bond assassin killings going on, but because poor people were poaching meals during the Great Depression. It imposed a $200 tax (Over $3000 in today's dollars) to deliberately price poor people out. Or how about the 1968 Gun Control Act

The Gun Control Act of 1968 was passed not to control guns but to control blacks, and inasmuch as a majority of Congress did not want to do the former but were ashamed to show that their goal was the latter, the result was they did neither. Indeed, this law, the first gun-control law passed by Congress in thirty years, was one of the grand jokes of our time. First of all, bear in mind that it was not passed in one piece but was a combination of two laws. The original 1968 Act was passed to control handguns after the Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr., had been assassinated with a rifle. Then it was repealed and repassed to include the control of rifles and shotguns after the assassination of Robert F. Kennedy with a handgun.... The moralists of our federal legislature as well as sentimental editorial writers insist that the Act of 1968 was a kind of memorial to King and Robert Kennedy. If so, it was certainly a weird memorial, as can be seen not merely by the handgun/long-gun shellgame, but from the inapplicability of the law to their deaths.

1994 Clinton attempted to get HR 3838 passed to ban all guns in public housing - obviously overwhelmingly poor and black people. It's all about limiting the power of the weak, disadvantaged, and poor. It always has been.

I understand the dilemma that minorities feel, knowing that gun ownership may make them double the target of law enforcement. Really, I do. But the answer isn't to give in ... or worse, work for gun control as the rich mostly white Democratic leadership would have you do.

Demand your self defense rights be respected. Exercise your rights, or lose them. Or you can keep working for gun control, believing the Democrat lie that gun control is good for minorities, and you can look forward to a nation where only the military and police have guns. Think that'll work out better for you?

I don't want you disarmed.

 

[deleted87051]

Killing of Atatiana Jefferson - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Killing of Tamir Rice - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Twiggidy]

The Black Panthers did that in Sacramento in 1967, and the result was the near-immediate passage of a gun control law that banned open carry. But @Arch Guillotti will tell you that gun control isn't racist. 😉 It's all racist and classist. It started before we were even a country, e.g. the 1712 passage of "An Act for Preventing Negroes Insurrections". Before the Civil War we had the "Black Codes", written for obvious reasons. In 1866, a whole year after the Civil War ended, Alabama made it a crime to sell, give, or lend any gun to any black for any reason. The 1934 NFA included sound suppressors not because of all the James Bond assassin killings going on, but because poor people were poaching meals during the Great Depression. It imposed a $200 tax (Over $3000 in today's dollars) to deliberately price poor people out. Or how about the 1968 Gun Control Act

1994 Clinton attempted to get HR 3838 passed to ban all guns in public housing - obviously overwhelmingly poor and black people. It's all about limiting the power of the weak, disadvantaged, and poor. It always has been.

I understand the dilemma that minorities feel, knowing that gun ownership may make them double the target of law enforcement. Really, I do. But the answer isn't to give in ... or worse, work for gun control as the rich mostly white Democratic leadership would have you do.

Demand your self defense rights be respected. Exercise your rights, or lose them. Or you can keep working for gun control, believing the Democrat lie that gun control is good for minorities, and you can look forward to a nation where only the military and police have guns. Think that'll work out better for you?

I don't want you disarmed.

The problem is that we need REAL police reform. I could be the cleanest, card carrying member of the NRA but if it's my word against 3 police officers about an encounter that involved a gun then I'm coming out on the losing side. Quite honestly I probably won't have the ability to defend myself. Similarly, juries tend to believe the police which is why many of these officers get aquitted for police shootings, well, except if you're Mohamed Noor. Funny how that works. (I totally understand that's an n=1).

My point is I'm not trying to die at the hands of the police and the best way to protect myself and my family is to live in as safe spaces as possible.

 

[deleted87051]

Timely video from Nytimes. Pretty sure David McAtee would be alive if he was unarmed.

 

[pgg]

The problem is that we need REAL police reform. I could be the cleanest, card carrying member of the NRA but if it's my word against 3 police officers about an encounter that involved a gun then I'm coming out on the losing side. Quite honestly I probably won't have the ability to defend myself. Similarly, juries tend to believe the police which is why many of these officers get aquitted for police shootings, well, except if you're Mohamed Noor. Funny how that works. (I totally understand that's an n=1).

My point is I'm not trying to die at the hands of the police and the best way to protect myself and my family is to live in as safe spaces as possible.

I understand the calculus and I don't blame you a bit for it. I'm just hoping to broaden support for that Other civil right enumerated in the Constitution that the left hates so much, by pointing out that a nation where ONLY the police and military have guns isn't actually better for minorities.

I hope we get some police reform this time. Part of me thinks a Democrat winning the presidency in November could help there, but then part of me remembers that most of the cities with large minority communities are already run by Democrats. As I've written before, I think the drug war is the root of most of this evil - Democrats are certainly more likely to correct that wrong than Republicans.

 

[Ronin786]

Timely video from Nytimes. Pretty sure David McAtee would be alive if he was unarmed.

He would be alive if cops followed their own standard operating procedure (18 shots into a crowded restaurant isn't reasonable force, it's a massacre avoided). He would be alive if he exercised better sense and didn't fire his firearm blindly in the sky around a bunch of trigger-happy, roided police officers. He'd still be dead if he was brandishing a knife or some other object.

His inability to exercise proper judgement and the police's inability to use non-lethal force shouldn't be an impetus to advocate for gun control. Unless those cops get to lose their guns as well.

 

[chocomorsel]

Trouble is that Republicans and even most moderate Democrats will forever back up the police, no matter what, because they've bought into the police force being a heroic extension or little brother of the military, and their worshipful support of the military has no bounds.

The standard cop is now armored up like a Starship Trooper and thinks "civilians" are the enemy. The police have become the standing army the founders warned us about. (When was the last time the 101st Airborne beat or killed an American? That's not the army we need to be concerned about.) I'd like to think that the last couple weeks are enlightening more white Americans to the reality that while the police mostly leave us alone, they're not our friends, have never been our friends, and they have no interest or intent or obligation to serve or protect anyone.

If the Republican party continues to self destruct maybe police reform will be the silver lining to what a Democratic president and legislature will do next year.


Also, I'll mention it because I can't help it ... the 2nd Amendment is for black and brown people too. Arm yourselves. Demand carry rights. If you're being hunted, defend yourselves. Quit buying the Democratic line that gun control is for your own good. Gun control has never, ever been anything but a tool to oppress the poor, weak, and helpless.

I think that plenty of White Americans are now enlightened, but I have also heard plenty of people worried about their police buddies. They are White.
Yeah, people are waking up, because like I told my white girlfriend, the police aren't just hurting and killing us, they are hurting and killing y'all too. Of course we get the brunt of it due to years and years of racism, and bias. And they seem to be above the law. They need a system of checks and balances.

Many black people will say "We black, we don't call the police". There is a reason behind that.

And as I remind my black brothers/cousins and male friends who own guns, you don't get the same treatment as Caucasians who own guns.
Don't speed, if you get a ticket, pay your damn ticket, keep your tags current so as not to give these jerks and extra reason to pull you over because they are already profiling you.

You had better be careful out there open carrying as a black man because I live in a state that has that law. One thing to keep it in the house to defend yourself, but you can't be marching all open with your semis and handguns. Remember what happened to that man in Dallas? Remember Filando Castille who told the police that "yes, I have a gun that I have a license for". And look what happened to the cop. Another acquittal. Why are these cops constantly getting acquitted by juries?

And it ain't just white cops either. They are all brainwashed becuse they are mostly patrolling the poor neighborhooods full of black and brown people. So they end up getting biased and brainwashed against even their own people. Add that to a system without checks and balances and you got your Starship Troopers for sure. Too much power. I have it much, much easier as a black woman. I am not considered a threat.

 

[deleted87051]

If they don’t want to give the appearance that they’re playing favorites, don’t play favorites. So polite.

Redirect Notice

 

[Twiggidy]

I think that plenty of White Americans are now enlightened, but I have also heard plenty of people worried about their police buddies. They are White.
Yeah, people are waking up, because like I told my white girlfriend, the police aren't just hurting and killing us, they are hurting and killing y'all too. Of course we get the brunt of it due to years and years of racism, and bias. And they seem to be above the law. They need a system of checks and balances.

This is actually pretty key. This is why I feel like some sort of reform (8 Can't Wait is pretty interesting) is going to happen and soon. Now on the news and on Twitter they're showing white women getting shot with rubber bullets and old white men getting head injuries from the police. At that point it's potentially some mayor, senator, or governor's relative and it's sad to say but when that starts happening (see, opioid "epidemic") that's when changes get made.

 

[MoMoGesiologist]

This is actually pretty key. This is why I feel like some sort of reform (8 Can't Wait is pretty interesting) is going to happen and soon. Now on the news and on Twitter they're showing white women getting shot with rubber bullets and old white men getting head injuries from the police. At that point it's potentially some mayor, senator, or governor's relative and it's sad to say but when that starts happening (see, opioid "epidemic") that's when changes get made.

I’m fine with our minorities getting shot at, but our white women? Hell naw! We need change and we need it now! (Take post with grain of salt)

 

[deleted171991]

You really think you can have a civilized” conversation about that by citing such an article and then baiting it with “well, if a white person had said that...”

Maybe if you yourself had asked the questions which you may be curious about, then I would have been more “civilized”.

One of my closest doc friends is a white boy from the south. And he sees the world through his view. Totally different from mine. And he said “we black men have been killing each other by the hundreds every day, why is everyone up in arms about this killing?”

It’s the way you posted it.

If you had directly just asked some questions about why there is so much violence in the black community etc, why are jails are full of black people, then there would not have been the implications that came with your “we white people are not allowed to say these things even when they are true.”

The implication is that you already know the “why” but aren’t allowed to speak it, due to the PC police, instead of digging deeper to try find out “the roots” of this. You seem to take the article as face value while ignoring the social constructs and racism that led us here.

That’s why I reacted like that. People need to dig deeper and educate themselves instead of just pointing out statistics and concluding that black folks in this country are just full of violence.

Nope. You went into full left-wing hysteria, because I questioned LBJ's statement. Here's a reminder of that insulting trash:

(Btw, what kind of person chooses the Twitter handle "KingJames"?)

Black people are "hunted"??? Every day? Every time? They can't leave their houses? It's very easy to just give into the herd mentality "four feet good, two feet bad". But an educated person should actually be skeptical about EVERYTHING. There are a lot of forces that are interested in inflaming racial relations in this country.

I posted that article just so that you can see the numbers (as quoted by a black person, because nowadays the left doesn't want to hear whites). I do sympathize with the demonstrators, and I believe we have some seriously bad policing in this country that starts with the wrong mentality of the "war" on crime, some serious racism in certain communities and people, and some social issues that need more support, but let's not blow things out of proportion, radical left-style. Please remember stalinism and maoism, or nazism, and see what happens when herd mentality takes priority in a society.

You are an educated person, you should take everything with a grain of salt. Like this gentleman:

I Must Object

Brown professor, Glenn Loury, responds to the University's letter on racism in the United States following the murder of George Floyd.

www.city-journal.org

And let's stop comparing dick sizes about who has read more about US history and racial relations (especially since both of us are immigrants). Also, being black doesn't mean that one has the monopoly of truth, especially when one disregards inconvenient facts. Just because one belongs to a tribe doesn't mean that one should not be objective about the tribe. And if one points out some inconvenient facts, that doesn't mean that one is racist, or one is not sympathetic to the plight of a social group, just that one is trying to get the big picture, instead of becoming all emotional like with the first major crush.

The left has to learn to tolerate free speech and free thought without going full-radical on people. The mob has the IQ of the stupidest person in it.

I am a moderate. I lean both left and right, depending on the issue. I don't have tribal allegiances (though I am sure I have my biases, like everybody in EVERY tribe). Anybody who's read my posts probably knows that. I have 80-90 people on my ignore list not because I don't want my thoughts to be challenged, but because I don't want to have to consume energy to deal with "alternative facts" (exaggerations or lies), or trolling, or scandal. It's like in real life: when somebody is not truly interested in a DIALOGUE, just spewing his/her own brainwashed MONOLOGUE, I just find a polite way to retreat. That's what I will be doing here, too. I don't waste time on people who obviously don't like me, or are radical, regardless of their excuses; life is short. I am not interested in conflict; I waste too much time here as it is.

P.S. And yes, we need more people like @We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes who can post more rationally about issues (like the LBJ tweet), from the right, unlike the usual brainwashed right-wingers we tend to have here. Or @vector2 on the left. Both with their biases, like all of us. And not everybody can be a cool-headed beautiful mind like @pgg (except when about gun control 😛), definitely not me.

 

[chocomorsel]

Nope. You went into full left-wing hysteria, because I questioned LBJ's statement. Here's a reminder of that insulting trash:

View attachment 309102

(Btw, what kind of person chooses the Twitter handle "KingJames"?)

Black people are "hunted"??? Every day? Every time? They can't leave their houses? It's very easy to just give into the herd mentality "four feet good, two feet bad". But an educated person should actually be skeptical about EVERYTHING. There are a lot of forces that are interested in inflaming racial relations in this country.

I posted that article just so that you can see the numbers (as quoted by a black person, because nowadays the left doesn't want to hear whites). I do sympathize with the demonstrators, and I believe we have some seriously bad policing in this country that starts with the wrong mentality of the "war" on crime, some serious racism in certain communities and people, and some social issues that need more support, but let's not blow things out of proportion, radical left-style. Please remember stalinism and maoism, or nazism, and see what happens when herd mentality takes priority in a society.

You are an educated person, you should take everything with a grain of salt. Like this gentleman:

I Must Object

Brown professor, Glenn Loury, responds to the University's letter on racism in the United States following the murder of George Floyd.

www.city-journal.org

And let's stop comparing dick sizes about who has read more about US history and racial relations (especially since both of us are immigrants). Also, being black doesn't mean that one has the monopoly of truth, especially when one disregards inconvenient facts. Just because one belongs to a tribe doesn't mean that one should not be objective about the tribe. And if one points out some inconvenient facts, that doesn't mean that one is racist, or one is not sympathetic to the plight of a social group, just that one is trying to get the big picture, instead of becoming all emotional like with the first major crush.

The left has to learn to tolerate free speech and free thought without going full-radical on people. The mob has the IQ of the stupidest person in it.

I am a moderate. I lean both left and right, depending on the issue. I don't have tribal allegiances (though I am sure I have my biases, like everybody in EVERY tribe). Anybody who's read my posts probably knows that. I have 80-90 people on my ignore list not because I don't want my thoughts to be challenged, but because I don't want to have to consume energy to deal with "alternative facts" (exaggerations or lies), or trolling, or scandal. It's like in real life: when somebody is not truly interested in a DIALOGUE, just spewing his/her own brainwashed MONOLOGUE, I just find a polite way to retreat. That's what I will be doing here, too. I don't waste time on people who obviously don't like me, or are radical, regardless of their excuses; life is short. I am not interested in conflict; I waste too much time here as it is.

P.S. And yes, we need more people like @We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes who can post more rationally about issues (like the LBJ tweet), from the right, unlike the usual brainwashed right-wingers we tend to have here. Or @vector2 on the left. Both with their biases, like all of us. And not everybody can be a cool-headed beautiful mind like @pgg (except when about gun control 😛), definitely not me.

I wasn't even talking about LBJ as much as I was talking about the rest of the article. White folk in this country have portrayed Blacks since the beginning as uncivilized and violent. It's nothing new. And you found and article written by a black man to try and prove your biased point of view. Fine, have at it.

Like I said, it is the way you initiated it instead of you yourself coming right out and asking the pointed questions you possibly wanted to ask instead of hiding behind an article to prove your point already made up. I am not brainwashed to the plight of black America. I have said before in the SPF forum, that yes, we could and should do better. But there is still a lot of ignorance that we need to overcome. Ignorance that will take time and education to overcome. In the mean time, besides that, there are still a lot of other hosts that create roadblocks for our people in this country. All stemming from years and years of racism.

You literally come on here and are frequently condescending to people about their medical management, say some insensitive/unconstructive things when people come on here asking for advice of managing some medical situations and YOU have 80-90 people blocked? Do you realize how rude you are to people sometimes? I mean, I log on daily, and people get on my last nerve living in their little bubbles, clueless about other people's worlds, but I have only ever blocked one person. 80-90? Speaks more about you than them.

Like I said before, you seem like one unhappy character. I don't know if it's because you are stuck in a practice you hate, or what it is, but it shows in your many negative responses to people who come here for advice or looking to let out steam or whatever.

And I never called you racist. Just book smart but ignorant. And I don't have a penis to measure. And I think you catch yourself and delete some posts almost as quick as you post them because you realize you are being a bit of a jerk.

And @vector2 is always way more eloquent than me, that's for sure. Yes, less emotional as well.

 

[vector2]

Nope. You went into full left-wing hysteria, because I questioned LBJ's statement. Here's a reminder of that insulting trash:

View attachment 309102

(Btw, what kind of person chooses the Twitter handle "KingJames"?)

Black people are "hunted"??? Every day? Every time? They can't leave their houses? It's very easy to just give into the herd mentality "four feet good, two feet bad". But an educated person should actually be skeptical about EVERYTHING. There are a lot of forces that are interested in inflaming racial relations in this country.

I posted that article just so that you can see the numbers (as quoted by a black person, because nowadays the left doesn't want to hear whites). I do sympathize with the demonstrators, and I believe we have some seriously bad policing in this country that starts with the wrong mentality of the "war" on crime, some serious racism in certain communities and people, and some social issues that need more support, but let's not blow things out of proportion, radical left-style. Please remember stalinism and maoism, or nazism, and see what happens when herd mentality takes priority in a society.

You are an educated person, you should take everything with a grain of salt. Like this gentleman:

I Must Object

Brown professor, Glenn Loury, responds to the University's letter on racism in the United States following the murder of George Floyd.

www.city-journal.org

And let's stop comparing dick sizes about who has read more about US history and racial relations (especially since both of us are immigrants). Also, being black doesn't mean that one has the monopoly of truth, especially when one disregards inconvenient facts. Just because one belongs to a tribe doesn't mean that one should not be objective about the tribe. And if one points out some inconvenient facts, that doesn't mean that one is racist, or one is not sympathetic to the plight of a social group, just that one is trying to get the big picture, instead of becoming all emotional like with the first major crush.

The left has to learn to tolerate free speech and free thought without going full-radical on people. The mob has the IQ of the stupidest person in it.

I am a moderate. I lean both left and right, depending on the issue. I don't have tribal allegiances (though I am sure I have my biases, like everybody in EVERY tribe). Anybody who's read my posts probably knows that. I have 80-90 people on my ignore list not because I don't want my thoughts to be challenged, but because I don't want to have to consume energy to deal with "alternative facts" (exaggerations or lies), or trolling, or scandal. It's like in real life: when somebody is not truly interested in a DIALOGUE, just spewing his/her own brainwashed MONOLOGUE, I just find a polite way to retreat. That's what I will be doing here, too. I don't waste time on people who obviously don't like me, or are radical, regardless of their excuses; life is short. I am not interested in conflict; I waste too much time here as it is.

P.S. And yes, we need more people like @We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes who can post more rationally about issues (like the LBJ tweet), from the right, unlike the usual brainwashed right-wingers we tend to have here. Or @vector2 on the left. Both with their biases, like all of us. And not everybody can be a cool-headed beautiful mind like @pgg (except when about gun control 😛), definitely not me.

Putting aside for a moment the jogging line that Lebron was being hyperbolic about (fyi, his twitter handle is King James because that was his high school sports nickname), I agree that we should try to have a rational, fact based discussion about the issue of race. The statistics are out there for anyone who seeks them, and there is a disparity that is essentially irrefutable:

1. Black people are much more likely than whites to be subject to a traffic stop by the police
2. Black people are more likely to be subject to force in a police encounter than whites
3. Black people are more likely to be killed in a police encounter than whites
4. Black people receive harsher sentences than whites for the same offense
5. Much of the system (including things like drug policy) is full of institutional racism and can't be reduced to a "few bad apple" cops, prosecutors, or judges


Whether or not you want to take the angle that white or white male oppression by PC liberals is as big a problem in America as institutional racism toward blacks (it isn't), keep in mind that a sea change has come to your door whether you like it or not. It is very similar to the dramatic shift in American culture wrt to LGBT where in less than half a generation we went from a de facto and de jure homophobic state to one in which LGBT are at least de jure equal under the law.

I'm guessing you don't follow football, but there is a quarterback for the New Orleans Saints named Drew Brees who recently made national news for parroting the stupid line about kneeling during the national anthem being about disrespecting the flag or the military (instead of what it is really is: a protest against police brutality). He was instantly shunned- not just in the media, but in real life. Not just by the far left, but by moderates too. This might not seem like something that surprising, but keep in mind that Brees is one of the most popular, charitable, and likable players in the NFL, and arguably the most popular, charitable, and likable person in the entire state of the Louisiana. Yet, within hours there were videos of protests in New Orleans (made up of 50% white people) with people chanting "F*ck Drew Brees." And within hours he promptly apologized and then later strongly rebuked Trump who said that Brees should have stuck to his original message.

I have honestly been astonished by the degree of racial and class diversity in the protests and in the general messaging. It has included staunchest BLM activists all the way to fortune 500 CEOs all the way to right wing chuds like Roger Goodell. I know "this time is different" is a huge cliche....but I'm very close to uttering the phrase.

 

[sleepallday]

It definitely feels different. Rodger Goodell put out a strong statement that no one would have thought was possible a couple years ago. Remember this is same guy that was part of black balling Colin Kaepernick.



I mean even my hospital put out a strongly worded statement that ended with the support of the #BlackLivesMatter movement. I never would have expected this from our admin.

 

[deleted171991]

I'm guessing you don't follow football, but there is a quarterback for the New Orleans Saints named Drew Brees who recently made national news for parroting the stupid line about kneeling during the national anthem being about disrespecting the flag or the military (instead of what it is really is: a protest against police brutality). He was instantly shunned- not just in the media, but in real life. Not just by the far left, but by moderates too. This might not seem like something that surprising, but keep in mind that Brees is one of the most popular, charitable, and likable players in the NFL, and arguably the most popular, charitable, and likable person in the entire state of the Louisiana. Yet, within hours there were videos of protests in New Orleans (made up of 50% white people) with people chanting "F*ck Drew Brees." And within hours he promptly apologized and then later strongly rebuked Trump who said that Brees should have stuck to his original message.

I have honestly been astonished by the degree of racial and class diversity in the protests and in the general messaging. It has included staunchest BLM activists all the way to fortune 500 CEOs all the way to right wing chuds like Roger Goodell. I know "this time is different" is a huge cliche....but I'm very close to uttering the phrase.

I'm afraid none of those can be taken at face value nowadays. There is a lot of herd mentality in American society these weeks. Nobody in their right mind would cross the mob; hence Brees's "apology". This is like during stalinism; that was another "cancel" culture and society when people stopped speaking their minds in public, or even at home. Say the wrong word, and your career would be finished. This is not a free country anymore.

Wait for the ballot boxes, and you may get surprised, like in 2016. Anonymity encourages sincerity. Also, be very afraid of every situation in which everybody agrees with something, and opposition is crushed, even just by social pressure; that's how totalitarian regimes are born. That's what's been happening in American K-12 and university education for decades, and that's why generation Z (and partly the millennials) are downright brainwashed.

I liked these protests when they started, but I am becoming more and more concerned about our democracy as weeks pass. We need change, but we don't need the pendulum to bounce in the other extreme, e.g. Trump to be replaced by similar extremists on the left. Thought and speech police don't belong in a free society.

Cancellation culture is just left-wing McCarthyism. Nothing to celebrate for freedom-lovers. We have forgotten how to defend the greatest Amendment to our Constitution, the First, before it disappears. It's getting like in the Dark Middle Ages, with (social) heresy and (mob) Inquisition.

Also, the more the outrageous things are not being challenged (like LBJ's tweet), the higher the chance of a backlash at the ballot box. Action and reaction, especially from the moderates and undecided. Remember that the nazis came to power when the Germans got scared of their socialists. Most people want change, but they don't want a socialist revolution. So peaceful demonstrations good, riots and speech police bad.

 

[vector2]

I'm afraid none of those can be taken at face value nowadays. There is a lot of herd mentality in American society these weeks. Nobody in their right mind would cross the mob; hence Brees's "apology". This is like during stalinism; that was another "cancel" culture and society when people stopped speaking their minds in public, or even at home. Say the wrong word, and your career would be finished.

Wait for the ballot boxes, and you may get surprised, like in 2016. Anonymity encourages sincerity. Also, be very afraid of every situation in which everybody agrees with something, and opposition is crushed, even just by social pressure; that's how totalitarian regimes are born. That's what's been happening in American K-12 and university education for decades, and that's why generation Z (and partly the millennials) are downright brainwashed.

I liked these protests when they started, but I am becoming more and more concerned about our democracy as weeks pass. We need change, but we don't need the pendulum to bounce in the other extreme, e.g. Trump to be replaced by similar extremists on the left. Thought and speech police don't belong in a free society.

Cancellation culture is just left-wing McCarthyism. Nothing to celebrate for freedom-lovers.

Also, the more the outrageous things are not being challenged (like LBJ's tweet), the higher the chance of a backlash at the ballot box. Action and reaction, especially from the undecided. I am really concerned. Remember that the nazis came to power when the Germans got scared of their socialists.

You're mistaken about Brees in that he is already at the end of his career (unlike Kaepernick who had many years ahead of him but who had the courage to sabotage his financial future for what he believed in).

Brees only has a 2 yr, 50 mil contract which he has already signed, and following that he will retire as a future hall of famer after making 300 mil over his 20 yr career. He is also someone who, even though I've disagreed with his political positions, I've always believed to be honest about the statements he makes, and as much as I want to be skeptical of his position change I believe he has been shown the error of his ways by his teammates and the community.

However, even if I hypothetically grant you that he is succumbing to mob rule, I think you are forgetting that the "mob" is sometimes the side that is actually following the righteous and moral path. I am sure there are many homophobes out there who have been cowed into a corner by the overarching "mob" mentality that LGBT acceptance is the new standard. But the fact that they have been forced into a corner does not detract from the justness of the position that LGBT people should not be relegated to being 2nd class citizens.

Would it be nice if bigots could be persuaded by a beautiful philosophical argument? Sure. But barring that, principles of equality will unfortunately have to be forced through legislative means upon the ignorant and mentally inflexible.

 

[MediMike]

Also, the more the outrageous things are not being challenged (like LBJ's tweet), the higher the chance of a backlash at the ballot box.

You seem awfully hung up on this tweet. I think if you can acknowledge that POC have a different experience than you yourself do then you have to acknowledge that he may feel like everytime he or one of his family leave their homes they are being hunted. And maybe he literally uses literally too much.

Don't think you're allowed to argue against the thought/speech police while playing policeman yourself.

 

[MoMoGesiologist]

I'm afraid none of those can be taken at face value nowadays. There is a lot of herd mentality in American society these weeks. Nobody in their right mind would cross the mob; hence Brees's "apology". This is like during stalinism; that was another "cancel" culture and society when people stopped speaking their minds in public, or even at home. Say the wrong word, and your career would be finished. This is not a free country anymore.

Wait for the ballot boxes, and you may get surprised, like in 2016. Anonymity encourages sincerity. Also, be very afraid of every situation in which everybody agrees with something, and opposition is crushed, even just by social pressure; that's how totalitarian regimes are born. That's what's been happening in American K-12 and university education for decades, and that's why generation Z (and partly the millennials) are downright brainwashed.

I liked these protests when they started, but I am becoming more and more concerned about our democracy as weeks pass. We need change, but we don't need the pendulum to bounce in the other extreme, e.g. Trump to be replaced by similar extremists on the left. Thought and speech police don't belong in a free society.

Cancellation culture is just left-wing McCarthyism. Nothing to celebrate for freedom-lovers. We have forgotten how to defend the greatest Amendment to our Constitution, the First, before it disappears. It's getting like in the Dark Middle Ages, with (social) heresy and (mob) Inquisition.

Also, the more the outrageous things are not being challenged (like LBJ's tweet), the higher the chance of a backlash at the ballot box. Action and reaction, especially from the moderates and undecided. Remember that the nazis came to power when the Germans got scared of their socialists. Most people want change, but they don't want a socialist revolution. So peaceful demonstrations good, riots and speech police bad.

If I had written LBJs tweet (as a non black persons), yea that would have been a bit much. However, him, as a black man, I can understand why he feels every black person every time is persecuted. He obviously meant it as hyperbole and knows it’s not every time, but given the rapid fire succession of black ppl being killed by cops caught on the news, his post and his anger r very understandable.

I definitely get what you are saying though, let’s not go overboard. We all saw how post 9/11 hyper-patriotism led to erosion of American citizen private rights and a lot of war and bloodshed.

 

[deleted171991]

You're mistaken about Brees in that he is already at the end of his career (unlike Kaepernick who had many years ahead of him but who had the courage to sabotage his financial future for what he believed in).

Brees only has a 2 yr, 50 mil contract which he has already signed, and following that he will retire as a future hall of famer after making 300 mil over his 20 yr career. He is also someone who, even though I've disagreed with his political positions, I've always believed to be honest about the statements he makes, and as much as I want to be skeptical of his position change I believe he has been shown the error of his ways by his teammates and the community.

However, even if I hypothetically grant you that he is succumbing to mob rule, I think you are forgetting that the "mob" is sometimes the side that is actually following the righteous and moral path. I am sure there are many homophobes out there who have been cowed into a corner by the overarching "mob" mentality that LGBT acceptance is the new standard. But the fact that they have been forced into a corner does not detract from the justness of the position that LGBT people should not be relegated to being 2nd class citizens.

Would it be nice if bigots could be persuaded by a beautiful philosophical argument? Sure. But barring that, principles of equality will unfortunately have to be forced through legislative means upon the ignorant and mentally inflexible.

Again, don't fool yourself. It was social pressure. It wasn't: you can think whatever you want, we love you anyway, because we know you're not a bad guy.

I don't want to wade into the LGBTQ+ discussion, but that's another territory where the pendulum bounced into the other extreme. Extremists, both on the left and right, don't know where to stop (in the middle). Hence, when people see extremism, they tend to not give an inch, because an inch today is a yard tomorrow and a mile next year, and soon the moderates become the ones who have to march for rights.

 

[vector2]

Again, don't fool yourself. It was social pressure. It wasn't: you can think whatever you want, we love you anyway, because we know you're not a bad guy.

I don't want to wade into the LGBTQ+ discussion, but that's another territory where the pendulum bounced into the other extreme. Extremists, both on the left and right, don't know where to stop (in the middle). Hence, when people see extremism, they tend to not give an inch, because an inch today is a yard tomorrow and a mile next year, and soon the moderates become the ones who have to march for rights.

I think Oscar Wilde must've seen the future and had you in mind when he penned "Everything in moderation, including moderation."

 

[Arch Guillotti]

(unlike Kaepernick who had many years ahead of him but who had the courage to sabotage his financial future for what he believed in).

I read he was still making a good living from other sources of income.

 

[deleted171991]

If I had written LBJs tweet (as a non black persons), yea that would have been a bit much. However, him, as a black man, I can understand why he feels every black person every time is persecuted. He obviously meant it as hyperbole and knows it’s not every time, but given the rapid fire succession of black ppl being killed by cops caught on the news, his post and his anger r very understandable.

I definitely get what you are saying though, let’s not go overboard. We all saw how post 9/11 hyper-patriotism led to erosion of American citizen private rights and a lot of war and bloodshed.

Thank you.

I only brought up that tweet because the entire contradictory discussion here started when @We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes had the guts to criticize it, @crash2500 commented on that, and I appropriately rolled my eyes on his comment.

It should be insulting to most white people (those it doesn't apply to), but whatever. Imagine if Trump would have said the same thing about whites (who are killed more frequently by blacks than the other way round).

I understand when people exaggerate, especially to make a point, but that doesn't mean I respect them for that (especially if celebrities, especially if disregarding facts).

 

[vector2]

I read he was still making a good living from other sources of income.

Yea he picked up that Nike endorsement and I'm sure he's had some other deals going. But whatever he's been doing, I'm sure his income is multiple standard deviations away from being a starting NFL QB with that kind of contract and endorsements.

 

[vector2]

"The middle" between slavery and equality was Jim Crow. "The middle" between Jim Crow and equality is the system we have today (wherein police officers can kill an unarmed George Floyd in the street, or execute a no-knock warrant on the wrong house, kill Breonna Taylor, and then arrest her BF [who returned fire against what he thought was armed robbers] for attempted murder against an officer).

"The middle" is not always the correct place to be.

 

[deleted171991]

"The middle" between slavery and equality was Jim Crow. "The middle" between Jim Crow and equality is the system we have today (wherein police officers can kill an unarmed George Floyd in the street, or execute a no-knock warrant on the wrong house, kill Breonna Taylor, and then arrest her BF [who returned fire against what he thought was armed robbers] for attempted murder against an officer]).

"The middle" is not always the correct place to be.

That's not the middle for me, and for most decent people. The middle is equality of opportunity. The middle is human decency. The middle is meritocracy. It's not hard. It's treating everyone as I'd like to be treated, at first, and how they deserve to be treated based on their individual actions, after that. AKA tit for tat.

The middle is me not reading chocomorsel anymore, but continuing to enjoy Ta-Nehisi's beautiful prose (even when I disagree). 😉

 

[vector2]

That's not the middle for me, and for most decent people.

Whether or not your opinion is that the current system is the middle, it is the current status quo in a country that is split almost down the middle politically and it’s the system that has been tolerated by the majority of both sides for over a generation, so it’s certainly not too far off.

 

[deleted171991]

Whether or not your opinion is that the current system is the middle, it is the current status quo in a country that is split almost down the middle politically and it’s the system that has been tolerated by the majority of both sides for over a generation, so it’s certainly not too far off.

So you're saying George Floyd is the rule, not the exception, in this country?

Maybe my memory is wrong when it keeps reminding me about affirmative action in everything nowadays, from university admissions to just regular jobs. I have seen more people scared of being accused of racism than racist ones, at least in my part of the world. (I do come from a less tolerant country, so I know how true discrimination looks and sounds.)

Anyway, as much as I would love to chat with you in real life, I'll stop here before this devolves.

 

[vector2]

So you're saying George Floyd is the rule, not the exception, in this country?

I will refer you to what I wrote earlier

“The statistics are out there for anyone who seeks them, and there is a disparity that is essentially irrefutable:

1. Black people are much more likely than whites to be subject to a traffic stop by the police
2. Black people are more likely to be subject to force in a police encounter than whites
3. Black people are more likely to be killed in a police encounter than whites
4. Black people receive harsher sentences than whites for the same offense
5. Much of the system (including things like drug policy) is full of institutional racism and can't be reduced to a "few bad apple" cops, prosecutors, or judges
“

The corollary to all those is

6. Most white people (at least until recently) have not given two sh1ts about those disparities inasfar as those disparities do not personally affect themselves.

The George Floyd encounter is not the “rule” when it comes to the average black person’s encounter with an average policeman. The statistically higher chance of an unjust outcome and the fact that most people would turn a blind eye to such an outcome (before the advent of literal widespread portable video recordings) is the “rule.”

 

[vector2]

 

[deleted171991]

The corollary to all those is

6. Most white people (at least until recently) have not given two sh1ts about those disparities inasfar as those disparities do not personally affect themselves.

The George Floyd encounter is not the “rule” when it comes to the average black person’s encounter with an average policeman. The statistically higher chance of an unjust outcome and the fact that most people would turn a blind eye to such an outcome (before the advent of literal widespread portable video recordings) is the “rule.”

Fixed that for you.

And that's the difference between a moderate and the radical left, in one strike-through.

Most people don't care about stuff that's unlikely to affect them. It's human nature, unfortunately. That's how we got a lot of the bad stuff in human history.

 

[vector2]

Fixed that for you.

And that's the difference between a moderate and the radical left, in one strike-through.

The problem with your strike through is that you crossed out something that (at least until very recently) is true. Feel free to look at the crowd composition of a black lives matter rally then and now. Or the racial composition of voters who voted for the racist pieces of sht in 2016.

 

[deleted171991]

The problem with your strike through is that you crossed out something that (at least until very recently) is true. Feel free to look at the crowd composition of a black lives matter rally then and now. Or the racial composition of voters who voted for the racist pieces of sht in 2016.

I wouldn't draw any conclusions. It's not like 50% of Americans are angels and 50% are POS. There is usually no smoke without fire.

 

[MoMoGesiologist]

So you're saying George Floyd is the rule, not the exception, in this country?

Maybe my memory is wrong when it keeps reminding me about affirmative action in everything nowadays, from university admissions to just regular jobs. I have seen more people scared of being accused of racism than racist ones, at least in my part of the world. (I do come from a less tolerant country, so I know how true discrimination looks and sounds.)

Anyway, as much as I would love to chat with you in real life, I'll stop here before this devolves.

All i know is if a cop is stopping me, i'd rather be a white woman than a black man. Anyone that says otherwise is lying.

 

[deleted171991]

All i know is if a cop is stopping me, i'd rather be a white woman than a black man. Anyone that says otherwise is lying.

Are you trying to suggest that women are privileged in some ways?

 

[MoMoGesiologist]

Are you trying to suggest that women are privileged in some ways?

When it comes to cops, I believe so. What cop gonna beat up a female? I do hear about cops beating up black women though sadly

 

[vector2]

I wouldn't draw any conclusions. It's not like 50% of Americans are angels and 50% are POS. There is usually no smoke without fire.

Racial Divide in Attitudes Towards the Police

A review of more than 50 public opinion surveys and polls, conducted between June 2014 and June 2016 regarding public opinion on the criminal justice system.

www.opportunityagenda.org

My statement that most whites don't give a **** about racial disparities in the criminal justice system (or at least enough to prioritize it over other more mundane political concerns) is 100% accurate.

 

[deleted171991]

Racial Divide in Attitudes Towards the Police

A review of more than 50 public opinion surveys and polls, conducted between June 2014 and June 2016 regarding public opinion on the criminal justice system.

www.opportunityagenda.org

Respectfully, this should be adjusted to income level.

 

[vector2]

Respectfully, this should be adjusted to income level.

Yea, see, except you didn't just add "adjusted for income level" to what I wrote. You struck through "white" when I wrote "most white people" which is inaccurate on your part. There is nuance to be had in that whites just like everyone else aren't a monolithic block, but you should think twice about arguing with what I wrote when 60+% of white men and 50+% of white women voted for Trump.

 

[deleted171991]

When it comes to cops, I believe so. What cop gonna beat up a female? I do hear about cops beating up black women though sadly

Do you believe police abuse on whites is as newsworthy as police abuse on blacks?

How about all the people killed by drunk drivers, or texting, on a daily basis?

 

[deleted171991]

Yea, see, except you didn't just add "adjusted for income level" to what I wrote. You struck through "white," which is inaccurate on your part. There is nuance to be had in that whites just like everyone else aren't a monolithic block, but you should think twice about arguing with what I wrote when 60+% of white men and 50+% of white women voted for Trump.

What percentage of blacks voted for Obama?

Don't bother. We both know that number. All I am trying to say that a lot of people are tribal. And that we should always keep in mind basic human instinctual psychology, and various distracting variables.

Unfortunately humans are some really unpleasant animals, especially when in a group. Regardless of melanin. Our religions and laws were invented exactly to control those instincts and mob mentality.

 

[vector2]

What percentage of blacks voted for Obama?

Don't bother. We both know that number. All I am trying to say that a lot of people are tribal. And that we should always keep in mind basic human instinctual psychology, and various distracting variables.

I don't get the point you're trying to make. Every demographic block in pretty much every poll going back 20 years shows either a majority of white people or definitely the majority of conservatives (who obviously are all almost all white) do not think that police brutality against black people is a problem or that black lives matter is a worthwhile movement.

You have offered nothing factual in response to my statement that "6. Most white people (at least until recently) have not given two sh1ts about those [racial criminal justice] disparities inasfar as those disparities do not personally affect themselves. "

 

[vector2]

Trump Is Reviving the Disgraceful Legacy of ‘Law-and-Order’ Politics

Trump’s rhetoric echos Nixon and Reagan — but unlike his predecessors, he’s incapable of posing as a force for unity as well as repression.

nymag.com

 

[deleted171991]

I don't get the point you're trying to make. Every demographic block in pretty much every poll going back 20 years shows either a majority of white people or definitely the majority of conservatives (who obviously are all almost all white) do not think that police brutality against black people is a problem or that black lives matter is a worthwhile movement.

You have offered nothing factual in response to my statement that "6. Most white people (at least until recently) have not given two sh1ts about those [racial criminal justice] disparities inasfar as those disparities do not personally affect themselves. "

And you think that if situations were reversed, most black people would've? I disagree.

Looking at all genocides (what can be worse than that?) in history, they happened mostly because those who weren't affected didn't give two ****s, especially if it wasn't their tribe. That's human nature. "All politics is local" for a reason; people don't give a crap about others. As an immigrant, one thing that was shocking for me was the infinitesimal amount of World News on broadcast TV. Where I come from, it was more like 50-50.

It's not racist. It's human. Most black celebrities kept silently making money for decades, instead of protesting. People are selfish animals, especially when push comes to shove.

 

[vector2]

And you think that if situations were reversed, most black people would've? I disagree.

Well, that's certainly an interesting hypothetical you've thrown out (that we'll never know the answer to), but it's neither here nor there since it has nothing to do with the actual racist history of this country or the current situation that blacks find themselves in. But I'm glad you can at least acknowledge what I said is factual even if you had to bring up some alternative history hypothetical to presuppose that blacks would do the same if the tables were turned.

 

[allantois]

Also, I'll mention it because I can't help it ... the 2nd Amendment is for black and brown people too. Arm yourselves. Demand carry rights. If you're being hunted, defend yourselves. Quit buying the Democratic line that gun control is for your own good. Gun control has never, ever been anything but a tool to oppress the poor, weak, and helpless.

How exactly would a gun have helped Ahmaud Arbery or George Floyd?

 

[deleted171991]

Well, that's certainly an interesting hypothetical you've thrown out (that we'll never know the answer to), but it's neither here nor there since it has nothing to do with the actual racist history of this country or the current situation that blacks find themselves in. But I'm glad you can at least acknowledge what I said is factual even if you had to bring up some alternative history hypothetical to presuppose that blacks would do the same if the tables were turned.

All I'm saying is that I wouldn't be surprised even if it were 100% true.

I am an equal opportunity cynic. I think (almost) ALL humans are selfish, deep inside, and most of them want to be equal only while they are less than equal (not more than). Hence it's normal that the rich won't fight for the poor (and those who do usually end up regretting it).

Of course, this can be changed by religion, tradition and laws (AKA social pressure), but one could argue all of that is still just selfishness and the right incentives.

 

[vector2]

All I'm saying is that I wouldn't be surprised even if it were 100% true.

I am an equal opportunity cynic. I think ALL humans are selfish, deep inside.

I think your alt-history hypothesis is likely true as well, just based on what we know about human nature. But the realpolitik on the ground is what it is, and it doesn't change my personal feelings toward righting the current inequality even I knew that blacks would similarly subjugate whites in the bizarro universe.

At the end of the day, I think you can hold your current position that speech should not be suppressed, affirmative action is wrong, some degree of media bias exists with regard to BLM coverage, but still have some solidarity with those who believe that police brutality has been unequally meted out in America for a long time. I don't think those things are mutually exclusive.

 

[deleted171991]

I think your alt-history hypothesis is likely true as well, just based on what we know about human nature. But the realpolitik on the ground is what it is, and it doesn't change my personal feelings toward righting the current inequality even I knew that blacks would similarly subjugate whites in the bizarro universe.

At the end of the day, I think you can hold your current position that speech should not be suppressed, affirmative action is wrong, some degree of media bias exists with regard to BLM coverage, but still have some solidarity with those who believe that police brutality has been unequally meted out in America for a long time. I don't think those things are mutually exclusive.

Yay, let's just stop here. 🙂

 

[chocomorsel]

Are you trying to suggest that women are privileged in some ways?

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!
Are you serious right now? I know that "ignoring" me has increased your numbers to 90-100 but this right here is hilarious.