Trump just got murdered IMO.

[jw3600]

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Fact checking Veers is like fact checking Trump. Conservatives play loose with facts. They speak only in Truthiness.

I liked your post except that you said you had no problem with his xenophobic and ignorant statement.

I don't really get this whole refugee debate. I feel our country can't afford to take on so many people who are at a medieval level of civility and social ineptness (not necessarily their fault, but it's really not our problem). And it's not xenophobic. I don't care what color or race they are. I care about the nonsense they believe in and the potential damage they could do to our country. If the KKK was fleeing from some war torn country I wouldn't give a **** either.

 

[enalli]

I liked your post except that you said you had no problem with his xenophobic and ignorant statement.

It would have been xenophobic or ignorant if he had said something like "don't let all these terrorists in."

I think bringing in refugees is the morally right thing to do, but I don't think resisting that is necessarily xenophobic.

If we really want "everyone to pay their fair share" then the law should be changed so that EVERYONE, rich or poor pays something, even if it's $1.

it's kind of ironic when these same people whine and moan about the rich not "paying their fair share". Everyone should have skin in the game in my opinion.

Ugh, this is one of the dumbest, most thoughtless points brought up by conservatives. Let me get this straight: you want to incur the filing/mailing/banking fees associated with processing income tax just so that someone can pay $1 as a matter of principle, even if this person is already receiving hundreds or thousands of dollars in welfare? Do you not see how terribly inefficient that is?!

 

[The White Coat Investor]

White Coat, can I ask you an indelicate question? I normally wouldn't be so blunt about it, but I've come to respect your opinion, so this troubles me somewhat. If the ONLY choices were Hillary and Trump, and you couldn't sit out or write Gary Johnson in or whatever... if you HAD to pick one of them, would you really pick Trump?

No. You saw my caveat- I refuse to vote for a bad person. So in your artificial environment of having to choose one of those two candidates, I would choose the less bad person. At least I know what I'll get with Clinton- we'll move a little closer to becoming Denmark. But with Trump, I'm afraid I'll wake up one morning and we'll have bombed Denmark. Now, I don't want to live in Denmark, but I think it's a pretty nice place to visit, so I'd like a chance to go there before Trump wipes it off the map.

At any rate, anyone miss Romney/Ryan yet? That was the best ticket we've seen in at least 30 years.

 

[Perrotfish]

Ugh, this is one of the dumbest, most thoughtless points brought up by conservatives. Let me get this straight: you want to incur the filing/mailing/banking fees associated with processing income tax just so that someone can pay $1 as a matter of principle, even if this person is already be receiving hundreds or thousands of dollars in welfare? Do you not see how terribly inefficient that is?!

The efficient way to do this is not through a $1 income tax, it's how states already do it: through a national sales tax. It's so efficient it's effectively invisible to people, it's naturally progressive, and it forces everyone to pay a share. It also has the advantage of being effectively loophole free for the super rich while being less of a burden on the working middle class.

 

[Perrotfish]

with Trump, I'm afraid I'll wake up one morning and we'll have bombed Denmark. Now, I don't want to live in Denmark, but I think it's a pretty nice place to visit, so I'd like a chance to go there before Trump wipes it off the map.

This. This x1000. The fact is presidents have enormous numbers of checks and balances when it comes to the tax code, the pro life debate, immigration, or any other facet of American domestic life. They seem to have r effectively no checks at all when it comes to military policy. Trump has made it crystal clear he is should not be trusted with military power

 

[GeneralVeers]

The efficient way to do this is not through a $1 income tax, it's how states already do it: through a national sales tax. It's so efficient it's effectively invisible to people, it's naturally progressive, and it forces everyone to pay a share. It also has the advantage of being effectively loophole free for the super rich while being less of a burden on the working middle class.

They tried this in Europe with the VAT tax. Originally meant to replace the income tax, it never did. The VAT has continually increased.....and so have income taxes. I'd be for a VAT or national sales tax only if the same bill eliminated all income taxes simultaneously for that tax year.

 

[gro2001]

No. You saw my caveat- I refuse to vote for a bad person. So in your artificial environment of having to choose one of those two candidates, I would choose the less bad person. At least I know what I'll get with Clinton- we'll move a little closer to becoming Denmark. But with Trump, I'm afraid I'll wake up one morning and we'll have bombed Denmark. Now, I don't want to live in Denmark, but I think it's a pretty nice place to visit, so I'd like a chance to go there before Trump wipes it off the map.

At any rate, anyone miss Romney/Ryan yet? That was the best ticket we've seen in at least 30 years.

That is a refreshing dose of sanity, thank you.

As for Romney, hearing his recent interviews with Ezra Klein and David Axelrod has actually changed my opinion of him for the better. I didn't realize how much of my negative perception of him at the time was due to Obama campaign managing to portray him as some sort of monster.

 

[gro2001]

The efficient way to do this is not through a $1 income tax, it's how states already do it: through a national sales tax. It's so efficient it's effectively invisible to people, it's naturally progressive, and it forces everyone to pay a share. It also has the advantage of being effectively loophole free for the super rich while being less of a burden on the working middle class.

Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying, but there is not way a VAT is progressive. Think of marginal spending rates: if you earn 20k/year, you are definitely going to spend all 20k and therefore 100% of your income is taxable. If you earn 500k, you may only spend 200k, so only 40% of your income is taxable. That's not to say this automatically makes the VAT bad, but it is a classic example of a regressive tax, not a progressive tax.

Edit: to be clear, over an infinite timeline, the VAT is progressive, because EVENTUALLY all money gets spent (theoretically), but humans don't live on infinite life spans, so in reality the VAT is regressive.

 

[jw3600]

That is a refreshing dose of sanity, thank you.

As for Romney, hearing his recent interviews with Ezra Klein and David Axelrod has actually changed my opinion of him for the better. I didn't realize how much of my negative perception of him at the time was due to Obama campaign managing to portray him as some sort of monster.

I think the negative perception was from him having to out crazy the other GOP nominees to get the nomination in the primaries. This has essentially been the Republican's party problem for the last few elections. Their candidates basically have to lie and come off as far right to get the nominee and then they have a hard time returning to the center when it comes time for the general.

 

[Siggy]

The efficient way to do this is not through a $1 income tax, it's how states already do it: through a national sales tax. It's so efficient it's effectively invisible to people, it's naturally progressive, and it forces everyone to pay a share. It also has the advantage of being effectively loophole free for the super rich while being less of a burden on the working middle class.

Actually, sales taxes are, by nature, regressive since people who make less end up paying more of their income by percentage.

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/regressivetax.asp

 

[enalli]

The efficient way to do this is not through a $1 income tax, it's how states already do it: through a national sales tax. It's so efficient it's effectively invisible to people, it's naturally progressive, and it forces everyone to pay a share. It also has the advantage of being effectively loophole free for the super rich while being less of a burden on the working middle class.

Sales taxes are the opposite of progressive. For each item, the dollar amount paid in taxes is the same whether you make $10 million a year or $10 thousand. That dollar amount will always be a higher percentage of the lower earner's income than the higher earner's. In this regard, a flat income tax would actually be more progressive than a sales tax.

Edit: looks like I was beaten to the punch by Siggy above.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

Seriously? Most corrupt...EVER? Honestly, I think a lot of the flak she gets comes with the territory. Being in public office for over 20 straight years in high-powered positions put you at risk for pushing the boundaries at times. She's the product of someone who has excelled in the political game known as Washington.

Yes, the most corrupt EVER to run for office. Look at all of the scandals she has been involved with: Making ONE investment in cattle futures that netted her an almost 10,000% return on investment, Whitewater and the "loss" of her papers associating her with that deal, Travelgate, taking $190,000 worth of White House furniture when they left, obtaining FBI files on their enemies (Linda Tripp and Kathleen Willey specifically), the sale of tech secrets to China (for donation to the Clinton campaign), collusion with the DNC to defeat Sanders,etc, etc...that's just a brief list.

She lies CONSTANTLY....Sniper fire in Bosnia, lieing to the American people about Benghazi ("spontaneous protest") and her emails ("There was no classified information"..errr, I mean "I sent no emails that were marked classified"...err....I mean "I didn't understand what those classification markings were on the emails that I sent/received.")

But the biggest scandal is her emails. There is absolutely NO REASONABLE EXCUSE for her getting away with this other than she is Hillary Clinton. She set up a private server for the sole purpose of ensuring her emails would not be discoverable by FOIA, then she flaunted well-established security procedures, eventually sending & receiving over 2000 classified emails, about 10% of which were TS/SCI.

Many people have been (rightfully) prosecuted for doing a miniscule FRACTION of what she has done with classified information, but she gets off because she is Clinton.

And we haven't even talked about the pay-for-play involved with the Clinton Foundation! Let's get this straight....you and I can't accept a freaking PEN from a drug representative because it might influence us in what medications we prescribe, but the foundation started by and run by a sitting Secretary of State can accept hundreds of millions of dollars from foreign countries?

Only if you're a Clinton.

So YEAH, she's the most corrupt politician EVER to run for the presidency.

Nixon was gracious enough to resign the presidency after deleting 18 minutes of tapes and using the IRS as a political weapon. Clinton deleted over 30,000 emails (several thousand of which were work related so therefore belonged to you and I), and used the IRS as a political weapon...and she's running for president.

That is a refreshing dose of sanity, thank you.

As for Romney, hearing his recent interviews with Ezra Klein and David Axelrod has actually changed my opinion of him for the better. I didn't realize how much of my negative perception of him at the time was due to Obama campaign managing to portray him as some sort of monster.

The same people in the media who led you to believe Romney was a monster are now leading people to believe that Trump is a monster.

Bombing Scandinavia? Really??

I'm not a huge Trump fan, but come on....

 

[GeneralVeers]

I don't for one second believe Trump will start a war. Even then I'd take a slight chance of a war over a much higher chance that Hillary would raise my taxes.

 

[xaelia]

Seriously? Most corrupt...EVER?

cor·rupt
kəˈrəpt/
adjective

1.
having or showing a willingness to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain.
synonyms: dishonest, unscrupulous, dishonorable, unprincipled, unethical, amoral, untrustworthy, venal, underhanded, double-dealing, fraudulent, bribable, criminal, illegal, unlawful, nefarious;

Pretty sure every politician is on the spectrum. HRC as "most corrupt" is a product of our 24/7 talking head unfiltered-extremist news cycle and our short-term memory. Frankly, I'd say, as someone who has been playing these games for as long as she has, and having nearly every facet of her life in the public sphere, she's doing OK.

HRC obfuscates and dodges; Trump flat out lies so much and so comically we've become numb to it.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

She has taken PUBLIC corruption to a new level.

No politician has ever set up and run a "foundation" and accepted hundreds of millions of dollars from foreign interests while holding an office like Sec State, thus allowing her to peddle her political influence for her own benefit. Donate ten million to the Clinton Foundation and you can get State Department approval for your business deal! That's kleptocracy, and she's going to get away with it.

No politician has EVER gotten away with openly defying classified security laws/regulations/rules the way she has. This is a no-brainer ,and by LAW she shouldn't be able to ever hold a security clearance again. But...laws don't matter because she is a Clinton.

Hillary is the most corrupt politician to ever seek the office of the presidency. She is a kleptocrat through and through. The importance of her lies are magnitude of scale greater than the lies that Trump has told. I don't care whether Trump called a beauty queen fat. I do care that Clinton lied to the American people about the cause of Benghazi, or about whether she sent TS/SCI material that wound up getting one of our informants executed by Iran.

 

[enalli]

Many people have been (rightfully) prosecuted for doing a miniscule FRACTION of what she has done with classified information, but she gets off because she is Clinton.

The unfortunate thing about this sort of misinformation is that the more it is repeated the more it is believed by people.

Colin Powell and Condoleeza Rice were never investigated for their private email servers. No one went to jail when the Bush administration deleted emails during the US Attorneys firings controversy. This isn't comparable to the Chelsea/Bradley Manning case because that was intentionally leaked and handled by the military justice system. This isn't comparable to the David Petraeus case because he intentionally leaked information.

I'm not sure what other high-profile cases you're thinking of, but that soundbite you're repeating doesn't quite hold water.

 

[GeneralVeers]

The unfortunate thing about this sort of misinformation is that the more it is repeated the more it is believed by people.


I'm not sure what other high-profile cases you're thinking of, but that soundbite you're repeating doesn't quite hold water.

Regardless of whether or not it was criminal (it can be debated either way), don't you have the slightest concern over her handling of classified material? Her only reason for doing so was to avoid FOIA requests into her e-mail. To me the secrecy, carelessness, and obfuscation raise troubling questions about how she would use the office of President.

Trump lies, cheats, and arguably steals from people. At least he hasn't done it at the expense of the nation's secrets, ambassadors, or access by foreign powers.

 

[Rendar5]

Trump lies, cheats, and arguably steals from people. At least he hasn't done it at the expense of the nation's secrets, ambassadors, or access by foreign powers.

And I would love to keep it that way

 

[enalli]

Regardless of whether or not it was criminal (it can be debated either way), don't you have the slightest concern over her handling of classified material? Her only reason for doing so was to avoid FOIA requests into her e-mail. To me the secrecy, carelessness, and obfuscation raise troubling questions about how she would use the office of President.

Trump lies, cheats, and arguably steals from people. At least he hasn't done it at the expense of the nation's secrets, ambassadors, or access by foreign powers.

It is concerning. I think she was very careless and this whole episode did expose some of her ignorance, particularly when it comes to technology.

What I take issue with is the angry indignation of the "lock her up" crowd. Their level of rage is not justified at all, no matter how much they repeatedly (and inaccurately) yell that anybody else would have gone to jail.

 

[engineeredout]

At any rate, anyone miss Romney/Ryan yet? That was the best ticket we've seen in at least 30 years.

Actually with everything surrounding the current debates, I ended up watching some clips of the first Romney-Obama debate. Anyone remember that one? Romney CRUSHED Obama and it nearly single handedly cost him the election.

But when you look back at it (available on YouTube) they're standing up there, discussing the other candidate's policies, discussing their own experiences, and why they would be better for the country. It seemed so... Civilized, compared to the reality show cluster**** of the current election.

I bet he would sweep the election this year. The biggest thing the media had against him was his portrayal as a wealthy elitist who is out of touch, which is not something Clinton could easily hide from either.

 

[ldiot]

It would have been xenophobic or ignorant if he had said something like "don't let all these terrorists in."

I think bringing in refugees is the morally right thing to do, but I don't think resisting that is necessarily xenophobic.





Ugh, this is one of the dumbest, most thoughtless points brought up by conservatives. Let me get this straight: you want to incur the filing/mailing/banking fees associated with processing income tax just so that someone can pay $1 as a matter of principle, even if this person is already receiving hundreds or thousands of dollars in welfare? Do you not see how terribly inefficient that is?!

I'd limit welfare to one year and implement a flat tax rate or something closer to it. I don't want to pay 40% in taxes to subsidize other people's poor life choices. If you are disabled or something that's one thing but living off of other people's money has become a lifestyle for a lot of these leeches.

I've heard all the arguments on both sides of the issue and I've interacted with hundreds of people on medicaid. In the strong majority of cases the situation they find themself in is of their own doing.

 

[GeneralVeers]

I'd limit welfare to one year and implement a flat tax rate or something closer to it. I don't want to pay 40% in taxes to subsidize other people's poor life choices.

Well actually most of your taxes are going to pay for the feeding/housing/medical care of the elderly. Within 15 years the entire tax revenue of the U.S. government will go towards two things: The elderly, and interest on the debt.

We could get rid of all the welfare, food stamps etc and we would still be in the hole. People 65 and older are bankrupting our country. It is incredible that we have theft of income from the poorest people who are in their 20s-40's in order to subsidize the wealthiest portion of the population, being those over 65.

 

[ldiot]

Well actually most of your taxes are going to pay for the feeding/housing/medical care of the elderly. Within 15 years the entire tax revenue of the U.S. government will go towards two things: The elderly, and interest on the debt.

We could get rid of all the welfare, food stamps etc and we would still be in the hole. People 65 and older are bankrupting our country. It is incredible that we have theft of income from the poorest people who are in their 20s-40's in order to subsidize the wealthiest portion of the population, being those over 65.

The bottom line is that our entitlement spending is out of control. It's impossible to cancel SS and medicare because the people paying into it have received no benefit, so obviously they don't want it canceled. It's almost a ponzi scheme that relies on a growing population.

If you are 65 and can't afford healthcare what have you been doing your whole life? The fact that we even need these programs is a testament to people's stupidity. I'd sooo much rather not pay SS/medicare and invest the money myself.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

The unfortunate thing about this sort of misinformation is that the more it is repeated the more it is believed by people.

Colin Powell and Condoleeza Rice were never investigated for their private email servers. No one went to jail when the Bush administration deleted emails during the US Attorneys firings controversy. This isn't comparable to the Chelsea/Bradley Manning case because that was intentionally leaked and handled by the military justice system. This isn't comparable to the David Petraeus case because he intentionally leaked information.

I'm not sure what other high-profile cases you're thinking of, but that soundbite you're repeating doesn't quite hold water.

For someone who accuses someone of just giving "soundbites" you are quick to revert to the DNC talking points of blaming Powell & Rice.

Let me school you on how the government communications systems evolved., and how what Powell/Rice did was nothing compared to Hillary. I spent 20 years in the military during the times that Powell/Rice/Clinton were SecState, virtually all of that time was as an operator where I held a security clearance. I also commanded 2 units, and my last tour was a staff job as the operational expert for a Flag Officer (ie: Admiral). I give you this background just so you know that I kinda know what I'm talking about here.

For decades all official government communication was done by memoranda, which were REQUIRED to be preserved to eventually be sent to the National Archives. They were REQUIRED to be preserved because these memoranda BELONG TO YOU AND I, and we can see them via a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request.

Then the internet happened. But it happened slowly. The first government email systems were terrible. Your government email address was your user name/local server name/regional server name, and there was no "contact list" for you to just click on someone's name. These systems were also so unreliable that snail-mail was better, so it wasn't used much. I remember in 1995 having AOL dial-up internet and a reliable email for home, but my government email was mostly limited to my local base server. However this quickly got better when we went to Microsoft (outlook).

During this time it wasn't unusual to use a mix of personal and government emails. If you had a (unclassified) project you were working on you could just email it to your home, work on it that evening, and email it back to your office for the next day. Similarly, when the boss called you and needed a brief on something, you could log into your home email and send the information instead of driving into the office.

THIS is when Powell/Rice "used their personal emails" for work, and THESE are the emails that the Bush admin "lost", some of which probably involved the firings of the US Attorneys.

The problem (that nobody really thought about at the time) with using personal emails like this is that emails sent from my home email to my bosses home email were never captured on a government system for archiving. I'm guilty of it, as is pretty much anyone who was in government service at the time.

After the Bush "lost email scandal" the administration came out with guidance that all business related emails HAD to go through the government server to be captured. So if I sent an email from my home to my bosses home, I would just "copy" my work email and it would be captured. Okay ,got it so far?

A few years later the tech boys found an even better way of doing it...by government blackberry which allowed the user to have access to their government email system 24/7 (unless they were in a secured space...not allowed in there). This ensures capture of all emails by the Archives.

Now in comes Hillary. She scraps all of this because she doesn't WANT her emails captured. She sets up a private server for the sole purpose of avoiding disclosure of her emails, and then uses it almost exclusively for work as she has all of her senior staff on the same private server. Worse yet, she refuses to follow security protocols and openly uses this nonsecured server for THOUSANDS of classified (including TS/SCI) emails.

Big, big difference between what Powell/Rice (and I) did and what Hillary did.

Google Jason Brezler if you want to see what happens to "regular people" who send classified info over open email.

 

[Perrotfish]

I'd limit welfare to one year and implement a flat tax rate or something closer to it. I don't want to pay 40% in taxes to subsidize other people's poor life choices. If you are disabled or something that's one thing but living off of other people's money has become a lifestyle for a lot of these leeches.

I've heard all the arguments on both sides of the issue and I've interacted with hundreds of people on medicaid. In the strong majority of cases the situation they find themself in is of their own doing.

Cash welfare hasn't existed since the Clinton administration: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ring-legacy-of-welfare-reform-20-years-later/ . There's Medicaid and food stamps, but even the desperately poor are now otherwise on their own.

 

[Rendar5]

http://www.snopes.com/2016/07/07/jason-brezler/
If someone wants to know about the still up in the air jason brezler case referenced above

 

[Seth Joo]

Cash welfare hasn't existed since the Clinton administration: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ring-legacy-of-welfare-reform-20-years-later/ . There's Medicaid and food stamps, but even the desperately poor are now otherwise on their own.

...

 

[enalli]

Let me school you on how the government communications systems evolved

...

Big, big difference between what Powell/Rice (and I) did and what Hillary did.

And all these advances happened exactly at midnight on January 21st 2009 so Rice and Powell were both living in the internet dark ages during their entire tenures?

Google Jason Brezler if you want to see what happens to "regular people" who send classified info over open email.

Yes, please tell me how his separation from the military is exactly the same as the civilian criminal conviction you are advocating for Clinton.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

And all these advances happened exactly at midnight on January 21st 2009 so Rice and Powell were both living in the internet dark ages during their entire tenures?



Yes, please tell me how his separation from the military is exactly the same as the civilian criminal conviction you are advocating for Clinton.

Ummm..No, evolution doesn't take place overnight. I explained it well enough for anyone who is not a Hillary sycophant to understand it.

And 1 classified email sent by the LT to save lives vs THOUSANDS of classified email sent by Hillary to avoid disclosure.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

http://www.snopes.com/2016/07/07/jason-brezler/
If someone wants to know about the still up in the air jason brezler case referenced above

Snopes is dated and incredibly biased. Notice they don't talk about the more than 200 emails from Hillary that held TS/SCI information. Furthermore, their reference to the Foreign Policy article about additional classified material on his hard drive is flawed. Brezler was a Civil Affairs officer, which means he dealt with public information flow. A huge part of that is dealing with public information (a news report of a drone strike killing a warlord at such-and-such town) and actual classified information (that we launched a drone strike on such-and-such town). As such, he WOULD have information that is classified on his computer, but not have compromised the security system.

Hillary tried the same defense...until the actual emails came out. Much of her security lapses were primary source information....stuff that her attorney (Cheryl Mills), when confronted with it, said "How is this not classified?"

For better information about what Brezler did, go to (https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/st...ho-warned-insider-attack-discharged/76622934/) and read about it.

It is understandable for the military to discharge Brezler because he violated his security clearance. If you EVER take your security clearance seriously you understand that you PROTECT YOUR SOURCE, and the best way to do that is to not violate security.

It is absolutely INCOMPREHENSIBLE that Hillary Clinton, who sent over 2000 classified emails, including over 200 containing TS/SCI material, over an unsecured email server that was set up for her goal of keeping her professional emails hidden from the public, will get away with it. But she did, and she will.

 

[WilcoWorld]

Who's going to watch the VP debates tonight? I will. I predict it'll sway precisely as many voters as have the discussions on this thread...

 

[ldiot]

Cash welfare hasn't existed since the Clinton administration: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ring-legacy-of-welfare-reform-20-years-later/ . There's Medicaid and food stamps, but even the desperately poor are now otherwise on their own.

We pay for their food and healthcare and in some cases housing, transportation, and childcare. Obviously they get tax credits. Then you have the college grants which can be pretty significant, among other benefits.

I'm not entirely against these programs, my problem is the manner in which they are utilized. These programs should be used to help people who need it, not become a lifestyle choice. People need to develops skills and gain work experience in order to not only support themselves but to improve, become successful, and increase their future earning potential, government assistance doesn't provide any of these skills or opportunities.

You don't work as a lab technician because you want to be a lab technician your entire life, you do it for the experience and skill. Same goes for being a waitress, working at McDonalds, etc. It's not the endgame, it's the first stepping stone so to speak.

 

[GeneralVeers]

We pay for their food and healthcare and in some cases housing, transportation, and childcare. Obviously they get tax credits. Then you have the college grants which can be pretty significant, among other benefits.

I'm not entirely against these programs, my problem is the manner in which they are utilized. These programs should be used to help people who need it, not become a lifestyle choice. People need to develops skills and gain work experience in order to not only support themselves but to improve, become successful, and increase their future earning potential, government assistance doesn't provide any of these skills or opportunities.

You don't work as a lab technician because you want to be a lab technician your entire life, you do it for the experience and skill. Same goes for being a waitress, working at McDonalds, etc. It's not the endgame, it's the first stepping stone so to speak.

Are you willing to cut people off and let them starve and/or die? Since we are not as a society going to do that, then lots of people will always game the system for their own benefit.

 

[Perrotfish]

We pay for their food and healthcare and in some cases housing, transportation, and childcare. Obviously they get tax credits. Then you have the college grants which can be pretty significant, among other benefits.

I'm not entirely against these programs, my problem is the manner in which they are utilized. These programs should be used to help people who need it, not become a lifestyle choice. People need to develops skills and gain work experience in order to not only support themselves but to improve, become successful, and increase their future earning potential, government assistance doesn't provide any of these skills or opportunities.

You don't work as a lab technician because you want to be a lab technician your entire life, you do it for the experience and skill. Same goes for being a waitress, working at McDonalds, etc. It's not the endgame, it's the first stepping stone so to speak.

Issues with this post:

1) Anyone who works hard should be able to make a good living. The unfortunate reality is that there are a limited number of white collar/management jobs and who gets them is a zero sum game. We need a society where blue collar unskilled work can be an endgame. Maybe not as good an endgame as medical school, but enough to support a small family and retire.

2) I would argue that government safety net programs have, increasingly, replaced labor rights and employee wages. They aren't really charity anymore, they're the third of the working class salaries that we no longer make the employers of blue collar workers pay. Our effective minimum wage and average blue collar wage have are both way lower than their peaks. At will employment has replaced firing for cause. Organized labor has been squashed in the private sector. Full time work has been replaced by part time shift work. Blue laws and national holidays have been replaced by 24/7 availability for the entire service industry. Government programs are increasingly paying the wages that we no longer force employers to pay, and since the employers won't pay taxes either these programs are financed by debt. That is a recipe for social unrest, because no one wants to work for 40 hours of back breaking blue collar labor to be sneered at for accepting 'charity', particularly when the bill for that charity is getting sent to their children..

 

[ldiot]

Issues with this post:

1) Anyone who works hard should be able to make a good living. The unfortunate reality is that there are a limited number of white collar/management jobs and who gets them is a zero sum game. We need a society where blue collar unskilled work can be an endgame. Maybe not as good an endgame as medical school, but enough to support a small family and retire.

2) I would argue that government safety net programs have, increasingly, replaced labor rights and employee wages. They aren't really charity anymore, they're the third of the working class salaries that we no longer make the employers of blue collar workers pay. Our effective minimum wage and average blue collar wage have are both way lower than their peaks. At will employment has replaced firing for cause. Organized labor has been squashed in the private sector. Full time work has been replaced by part time shift work. Blue laws and national holidays have been replaced by 24/7 availability for the entire service industry. Government programs are increasingly paying the wages that we no longer force employers to pay, and since the employers won't pay taxes either these programs are financed by debt. That is a recipe for social unrest, because no one wants to work for 40 hours of back breaking blue collar labor to be sneered at for accepting 'charity', particularly when the bill for that charity is getting sent to their children..

You can make a great living as a mechanic, in construction, truck driver, electrician, welder, the list goes on. My uncle makes millions a year in construction and has employees making 6 figures. My next door neighbour ships cattle, doesn't even employ 20 people, and is worth millions. You don't even need to go to college. These are successful business owners but you don't even have to go that far... you can walk out of highschool and make 50k driving truck; even more if you own a truck. I know way too many people who actually went to college and upon graduation are literally running a cash register for 8 dollars an hour. That's just stupidity, nobody's fault but their own if you ask me. If they are worth more than 8 dollars an hour then go get what your worth, don't sit around and blame those who are successful for your personal failures.

 

[ldiot]

Are you willing to cut people off and let them starve and/or die? Since we are not as a society going to do that, then lots of people will always game the system for their own benefit.

If you are physically and mentally capable, and refuse to work, I would not give you one penny out of a government program. Plain and simple.

 

[GeneralVeers]

If you are physically and mentally capable, and refuse to work, I would not give you one penny out of a government program. Plain and simple.

I agree. It used to be charity was in the individual community/church. Now it comes from government.

 

[Perrotfish]

You can make a great living as a mechanic, in construction, truck driver, electrician, welder, the list goes on. My uncle makes millions a year in construction and has employees making 6 figures. My next door neighbour ships cattle, doesn't even employ 20 people, and is worth millions. You don't even need to go to college. These are successful business owners but you don't even have to go that far... you can walk out of highschool and make 50k driving truck; even more if you own a truck. I know way too many people who actually went to college and upon graduation are literally running a cash register for 8 dollars an hour. That's just stupidity, nobody's fault but their own if you ask me. If they are worth more than 8 dollars an hour then go get what your worth, don't sit around and blame those who are successful for your personal failures.

Again, you should be able to see that million dollar, or even 50K/year, jobs are not lying around for anyone who wants to grab them. In any event every one of those jobs is already filled, and if you coach someone in to one of those jobs all you do is bump someone else out.

There was a time in American history when working a full time job was not considered a 'personal failure' to be sneered at by the privileged few. We really need to get back there.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Again, you should be able to see that million dollar, or even 50K/year, jobs are not lying around for anyone who wants to grab them. In any event every one of those jobs is already filled, and if you coach someone in to one of those jobs all you do is bump someone else out.

There was a time in American history when working a full time job was not considered a 'personal failure' to be sneered at by the privileged few. We really need to get back there.

Your first paragraph is 100% incorrect. I'm in a business networking group and every week for the last 6 months our floor cleaner, electrician, and glass installer have been begging for people to hire.

The electrician is a patient and we talk about this often. He had to stop drug testing his commercial employees because otherwise he'd never have a work force. For the residential side, if you come in with zero electrical experience he'll pay you $12/hour, pair you up with one of his experienced electricians, and train you on the job for 6 months. If you're still around after 6 months, your pay goes up to $25/hour. If you're still around after a full year, that goes up to $30/hour. He is desperate for workers as no one is willing to do the 6 months at low pay, which is essentially getting paid to learn a trade.

The glass guy just lost his best worker who was mad because he was getting sent out on the most jobs. He pays based on actual hours on the job, so this guy was making more than anyone else but was angry that he was working all day.

I love your second paragraph. I've long though we needed to emphasize high school vocational programs more.

 

[WilcoWorld]

Who's going to watch the VP debates tonight? I will. I predict it'll sway precisely as many voters as have the discussions on this thread...

So did anyone watch last night's debate?

Speaking solely about performance (so, excluding content) I'd say that Pence carried himself much better than Kaine. At the beginning it looked like it was going to be a trouncing, but Kaine pulled it together about halfway through and managed to appear a little less whiny. All in all, I'd guess Trump/Pence might've picked up a few undecideds, but Clinton/Kaine at best solidified some of the voters they already had.

 

[Onefellswoop87]

I'd limit welfare to one year and implement a flat tax rate or something closer to it. I don't want to pay 40% in taxes to subsidize other people's poor life choices. If you are disabled or something that's one thing but living off of other people's money has become a lifestyle for a lot of these leeches.

I've heard all the arguments on both sides of the issue and I've interacted with hundreds of people on medicaid. In the strong majority of cases the situation they find themself in is of their own doing.

We pay for their food and healthcare and in some cases housing, transportation, and childcare. Obviously they get tax credits. Then you have the college grants which can be pretty significant, among other benefits.

I'm not entirely against these programs, my problem is the manner in which they are utilized. These programs should be used to help people who need it, not become a lifestyle choice. People need to develops skills and gain work experience in order to not only support themselves but to improve, become successful, and increase their future earning potential, government assistance doesn't provide any of these skills or opportunities.

You don't work as a lab technician because you want to be a lab technician your entire life, you do it for the experience and skill. Same goes for being a waitress, working at McDonalds, etc. It's not the endgame, it's the first stepping stone so to speak.

Welfare is a pretty broad term that generally but incorrectly gets applied to only food stamps/SNAP programs. Help me understand what you want cut/limited to one year. So we should only do free/reduced school lunches for kindergarten? Pell grants for only freshman year of college? Only do farm subsidies for a year? Sounds like those farmers are just leeches that make poor live choices (sarcasm font).

Your anecdotes of people being poor for "their own doing" doesn't make sense. You have interacted with that many people that waste all their money on blow and hookers? Or what else have they done to themselves? Been fired from a job and claim unemployment or not be educated like you to climb the ladder? (more sarcasm font)

Not everyone wants to or needs to be a lab manager. What if someone is an awesome lab tech and enjoys the work? Shouldn't he/she get paid a living wage (assuming they work full time and do good work) so they don't need welfare? Why do they have to use that as a stepping stone? Why can't someone be a waitress if she wants to? She should be paid a wage that has kept up with inflation that she can live on. She might never have the money to go on exotic vacations, but what's wrong with that? It's not only teenagers that work low income jobs to pay for illegally obtained beer. I'm still not arguing that every job be above the poverty line (cause then the relative poverty line would increase too) but wages have been stagnant as corporate profits have increased and the CEOs have gotten wealthier. So much for trickle down economics that help the little guy/gal.

I'm also not arguing for handouts for all, but I think your blanket condemnation to welfare and holier-than-thou statements of people's career choices is poorly thought out.

 

[jl lin]

She has taken PUBLIC corruption to a new level.

No politician has ever set up and run a "foundation" and accepted hundreds of millions of dollars from foreign interests while holding an office like Sec State, thus allowing her to peddle her political influence for her own benefit. Donate ten million to the Clinton Foundation and you can get State Department approval for your business deal! That's kleptocracy, and she's going to get away with it.

No politician has EVER gotten away with openly defying classified security laws/regulations/rules the way she has. This is a no-brainer ,and by LAW she shouldn't be able to ever hold a security clearance again. But...laws don't matter because she is a Clinton.

Hillary is the most corrupt politician to ever seek the office of the presidency. She is a kleptocrat through and through. The importance of her lies are magnitude of scale greater than the lies that Trump has told. I don't care whether Trump called a beauty queen fat. I do care that Clinton lied to the American people about the cause of Benghazi, or about whether she sent TS/SCI material that wound up getting one of our informants executed by Iran.

Totally true...she is a corrupt globalist, and a free republic cannot survive under corrupt globalists. Heck, I often wonder how we will survive after Obama...or any of the other globalists really. People don't even understand what the 3 most important documents of our nation are. It's beyond embarrassing, it's heartbreaking. Such freedom is not for weak-minded people, who live on the words of a corrupt, globalist media. But what will be, will be. We may get some mercy; but I look at folks and their reasoning and lack of insight and I say, "Yea. We probably deserve this." Globalism-->terrorism-->justification for gov't take usurp freedoms in the "interest of protecting." It's a heartbreaking mess.

 

[jl lin]

So did anyone watch last night's debate?

I'd say that Pence carried himself much better than Kaine. At the beginning it looked like it was going to be a trouncing, but Kaine pulled it together about halfway through and managed to appear a little less whiny. All in all, I'd guess Trump/Pence might've picked up a few undecideds, but Clinton/Kaine at best solidified some of the voters they already had.

Didn't see a lot of it, but from what I did see, Pence is a class act. Now, hopefully Trump will learn a bit from Pence. We know what we WILL get with Hillary, and IT IS NOT GOOD. That's why I am taking my chances w/ Trump as a wild card. Plus, the system is inundated with corruption and it needs to be changed up. Liars. Teflon Clintons take that cake by far. Plus people are idiotic that they don't understand economics or running a business and writing off losses---taxes are collected based on profit. If people didn't use the tax laws, no business could ever survive, especially in this modern, governmentally overzealous taxation environment. Don't people have to take any economics anymore?

 

[xaelia]

So did anyone watch last night's debate?

Both sides had strengths and weaknesses. A draw favors ... probably no one, in the end.

 

[BAM!]

Well actually most of your taxes are going to pay for the feeding/housing/medical care of the elderly. Within 15 years the entire tax revenue of the U.S. government will go towards two things: The elderly, and interest on the debt.

We could get rid of all the welfare, food stamps etc and we would still be in the hole. People 65 and older are bankrupting our country. It is incredible that we have theft of income from the poorest people who are in their 20s-40's in order to subsidize the wealthiest portion of the population, being those over 65.

This drives me nuts! The bottom line is that people weren't meant to live this long. Quality of life at 85 is NOT good. Sometimes I feel like I'm part of the problem by treating all these old people, admitting them, driving up health care costs. This is all to my benefit because I get paid. But to society's detriment because we're driving up debt through entitlement spending.

You're 70 years old. Come to d*mn terms with your mortality. If you haven't already achieved what you want out of life yet, Sorry but you missed out. You had a lifetime to do it.

To bring it back to Emergency Medicine -- Who joined the ranks of Emergency Medicine to set a fracture in a 15 year old, thus regaining functionality of his arm for the rest of his life? Now who joined the ED to be a middle man in the process of turning great grandma every 3 hours so her skin doesn't rot from her torso?

This entitlement spending has got to stop. They are spending WAY more than they put in.

 

[Onefellswoop87]

Didn't see a lot of it, but from what I did see, Pence is a class act. Now, hopefully Trump will learn a bit from Pence. We know what we WILL get with Hillary, and IT IS NOT GOOD. That's why I am taking my chances w/ Trump as a wild card. Plus, the system is inundated with corruption and it needs to be changed up. Liars. Teflon Clintons take that cake by far. Plus people are idiotic that they don't understand economics or running a business and writing off losses---taxes are collected based on profit. If people didn't use the tax laws, no business could ever survive, especially in this modern, governmentally overzealous taxation environment. Don't people have to take any economics anymore?

For most people the problem isn't that Trump wrote off his taxes using legal policies - it's that his campaign is built on a) he's an awesome businessman and b) now that he knows the tax system so he change it. The leaked tax documents cast doubt on how awesome if a businessman he is. In 1995 his almost 1 billion loss is 2% of ALL real estate losses for that year. And I can bet your reply is that "but he built his empire back!" Ok, how do you know? Cause he says so? If he was still solvent after a almost a billion dollar loss, maybe he's still just barely solvent. I don't know. You don't know. His financial disclosure are from self-reported figures that are huge (ahem, YUGE) ranges.

And to b), his tax policies don't change any of these policies he "brilliantly" used, but instead make its better for him and his family's personal income. He said he's no longer working for Trump (does that imply for the earlier part of this race he was working for himself) but now he is working for us. His tax policies don't show that. So much for being an agent of change.

 

[jl lin]

This drives me nuts! The bottom line is that people weren't meant to live this long. Quality of life at 85 is NOT good. Sometimes I feel like I'm part of the problem by treating all these old people, admitting them, driving up health care costs. This is all to my benefit because I get paid. But to society's detriment because we're driving up debt through entitlement spending.

You're 70 years old. Come to d*mn terms with your mortality. If you haven't already achieved what you want out of life yet, Sorry but you missed out. You had a lifetime to do it.

To bring it back to Emergency Medicine -- Who joined the ranks of Emergency Medicine to set a fracture in a 15 year old, thus regaining functionality of his arm for the rest of his life? Now who joined the ED to be a middle man in the process of turning great grandma every 3 hours so her skin doesn't rot from her torso?

This entitlement spending has got to stop. They are spending WAY more than they put in.

Wow. I know plenty of people w/ quality of life over 80. Just wow.

 

[jl lin]

For most people the problem isn't that Trump wrote off his taxes using legal policies - it's that his campaign is built on a) he's an awesome businessman and b) now that he knows the tax system so he change it. The leaked tax documents cast doubt on how awesome if a businessman he is. In 1995 his almost 1 billion loss is 2% of ALL real estate losses for that year. And I can bet your reply is that "but he built his empire back!" Ok, how do you know? Cause he says so? If he was still solvent after a almost a billion dollar loss, maybe he's still just barely solvent. I don't know. You don't know. His financial disclosure are from self-reported figures that are huge (ahem, YUGE) ranges.

And to b), his tax policies don't change any of these policies he "brilliantly" used, but instead make its better for him and his family's personal income. He said he's no longer working for Trump (does that imply for the earlier part of this race he was working for himself) but now he is working for us. His tax policies don't show that. So much for being an agent of change.

Non sequitur nonsense...especially in light of Hillary and Clinton illegal and careless antics over decades. And that is not even bringing in Clinton Foundation business.

I expect a more globalist/liberal bent here.

 

[Arcan57]

Non sequitur nonsense...especially in light of Hillary and Clinton illegal and careless antics over decades. And that is not even bringing in Clinton Foundation business.

I expect a more globalist/liberal bent here.

Obviously you have a well entrenched world view. Nobody's expecting you to vote for Clinton. If you don't see how damaging the idea that Trump is actually a mediocre/poor businessman who happens to be good at self-promotion is to Trump's campaign that's a problem. Without superhuman business acumen that will somehow translate directly into superhuman "dealing with entrenched bureaucracy and intractable foreign governments" you basically are voting for Trump because you're into the racism or xenophobia he's preaching. Or you're in the investor class and betting you have enough resources to continue thriving even if the country starts shaking itself apart.

 

[jl lin]

Globalism, which is clearly what Clinton is about, not to mention her decades of misdeeds, regardless of the Teflon on her and all around D.C., is not compatible with our founding liberties. It won't work. There is no compromise on this. Read the 3 most important documents of our nation, be objective, and see how well it lines up with globalism. It doesn't.