Under Represented Minorities in Radiology (including women)

[bbfthegirl]

Despite how awesome radiology is, there is a definite disparity in diversity when compared to other medical specialties. Here is one of my favorite quotes on the subject of diversity in radiology by Dr. Lightfoote and colleagues ..." There is a disconnect between vocal support and quantifiable results,” wrote Lightfoote and colleagues.

Of the top 20 largest Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education (ACGME) training programs, diagnostic radiology ranks ninth in total resident enrollment, yet ranks 18 th among trainees classified as underrepresented minorities. Specifically, radiology ranks 18 th for black, 19th for Hispanic and 16 th for American Indian/Alaska native/Native Hawaiian/Pacific Islander trainees. Radiation oncology has not improved representation among residents since data was first reported annually, according to the authors.

The above quote and data is referenced from an article in Health imaging: http://www.healthimaging.com/topics/practice-management/why-diversity-matters-radiology

The purpose of this thread is to highlight those programs and institutions who are committed to diversity in Medicine specifically diversity in Radiology.

"Everyone thinks diversity in medicine is a great idea until they have to do something about it" B. Coleman

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[deleted480308]

Are you proposing there is racial discrimination in some way?

 

[bbfthegirl]

No

 

[deleted480308]

No

Then what do you want from radiology? If they aren't discriminating then the percentages aren't inappropriate....they just happen to be what they are

Exactly what action are asking for?

 

[bbfthegirl]

UW Radiology Diversity Visiting Student Program
http://rad.washington.edu/education/medical-students/diversity-visiting-student-program/
Note that it is open to minorities as well as non minorities from a disadvantaged background. They offer a small stipend to visiting medical students to help defray the costs incurred by doing away rotations.

 

[bbfthegirl]

I am more interested in increasing interest from minorities applicants and women rather that blaming the ACR. Interestingly the article was published as a series from the ACR Commission for Women and General Diversity.

 

[deleted480308]

I am more interested in increasing interest from minorities applicants and women rather that blaming the ACR. Interestingly the article was published as a series from the ACR Commission for Women and General Diversity.

I guess I'm confused at the premise (given there is no accusation of racism) that medical students need to evenly distribute across the specialties by the demographics of race/gender. If everyone has equal rights to apply and has equal consideration, why would those percentages bother anyone? It just seems like a call for a solution to something that isn't a problem.

 

[bbfthegirl]

The ACR (American College of Radiology) thinks it's a problem. But, I can see how you might not consider it a problem. Check out their recent publications on the subject.

Counterpoint: Diversity and Inclusion: Works in Progress. Lightfoote JB, et al. J Am Coll Radiol. 2015 Sep;12(9):975-7.

Point: Introducing Diversity Into a Medical Group: How to Do It and Why. Hayes D. J Am Coll Radiol. 2015 Sep;12(9):972-4.

Diversity matters: historical lessons. Dhami G, et al. J Am Coll Radiol. 2015 Jan;12(1):118-9.

Improving diversity, inclusion, and representation in radiology and radiation oncology part 1: why these matter.Lightfoote JB, et al. J Am Coll Radiol. 2014 Jul;11(7):673-80.

Improving diversity, inclusion, and representation in radiology and radiation oncology part 2: challenges and recommendations. Lightfoote JB, et al. J Am Coll Radiol. 2014 Aug;11(8):764-70.

 

[deleted480308]

As those are all subscription articles, I'll ask you to articulate...if all students have free reign to apply and be considered for any specialty, why is it wrong for them to choose some specialties more than others?

 

[Fab5Hill33]

I agree with SB247

 

[deleted564680]

These types of threads and that people and programs really worry about this kind of thing really annoys me.

You make a thread with a name used that tries to make yourself feel good "Under-represented minorities - and women." It's annoying to put people in groups when you're clearly singling out another and makes that group (white males) seem like they are trying to be malicious or somehow doing it all on purpose. If you're including Asian males in with white males then good for you.

Medical specialties are extremely self-selective and if you want to focus on diversity then it needs to be done at the undergraduate or medical school level.

What does "under-represented minority" even mean to you? Since it's radiology, is it black women only? If it's OB-gyn, is it males? Or (like I assume you mean) is it always everyone but white males regardless of the situation because we all know that they're the ones who oppressed everyone for 1000s of years and have just made it oh so gosh darn difficult for all others to do anything.

Studies show that just picking percentages of race (such as 10% black for med school to match 10% black in population) doesn't work. Guess what, those black doctors want to work in big cities and live in nice suburbs too. Turns out they don't want to go into the inner city neighborhoods just because they're black and thinking they will do so is actually kind of racist. Not to mention, the lack of certain groups needs to be fixed in the K-12 system and undergrad system - not medical school. The "pipeline" has to provide.

Also, even more evidence is coming out that girls obtain better K-12 education (it's tailored to them), graduate HS at higher rates, get into college and graduate college at higher rates. Does this just not matter because it goes against the narrative?

Lastly, why exactly ARE you posting this? You can't convince people to like radiology and if I'm a patient, I want the person who loves the field and is the best for the job reading my scans. Not someone who is coerced into it because of skin color or gender. I highly doubt there's a single "underrepresented minority" that wants to be in radiology and isn't due to their gender/race/ethnicity/etc. Like I said above, this is just silly when you get to the level of radiology sub-specialty.

 

[kavorca]

Med students in general are shying away from radiology. What are the Pacific Islanders doing residency in? I am curious if that specialty is really courting them. I don't know if there is need for diversity in each specialty beyond the perception that there should be diversity. There is active recruitment of women into Ortho and men into OB and Peds but I am not sure it's for any real reasons except to say you are diverse. You can't make people go into a specialty. You break your back to make your med school diverse then you have to make every specialty diverse. That seems like a lot of work.

 

[WilliamofOckham]

Oh my God. The specialty in which the physician interacts minimally with patients (except in IR and to some extent mammo) suffers from a lack of "diversity." The sky is falling! Whatever shall we do?!

 

[IJL]

Who cares?

 

[WilliamofOckham]

Who cares?

Perhaps the OP is advocating that URM med students be pressured into going into a field they don't like.

The more likely explanation, of course, is that (s)he's just guilt-mongering.

 

[FranzLO]

Ugh, this is only going to get more and more obnoxious. Good intentions but pointless.

 

[preDoGuy24]

TRIGGERED!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Cognovi]

Why do yall think the proportion of women in radiology residency is discordant from the proportion of women in medical school?

 

[DaTruMD]

Why do yall think the proportion of women in radiology residency is discordant from the proportion of women in medical school?

Because they like patient contact probably.

 

[deleted564680]

Why do yall think the proportion of women in radiology residency is discordant from the proportion of women in medical school?

Because in general men and women have different likes and dislikes. Radiology fits a more math/science heavy, less social person. That type of person is generally male.

Why do we see discordant amounts of men in obgyn? Just think about it.

 

[Cognovi]

Why is pathology, another science-heavy and less social specialty, at gender parity?

Why is there no deficit of older ob/gyns who are males?

It's not as simple as "just think about it."

 

[WilliamofOckham]

Why is there no deficit of older ob/gyns who are males?

It's not as simple as "just think about it."

Fewer women went into medicine decades ago. So, the market was more open for male Ob/Gyns.

As for Path, I wonder whether the relatively higher %age of women reflects its lifestyle-friendly nature. As most here know, while Rads has a preferable environment in many ways, it is not a lifestyle specialty. I'd be curious to see the trends in PM&R. Only a few people from my school wemt into PM&R in my year and the 2 years ahead of me, and they were all girls.

 

[Cognovi]

Fewer women went into medicine decades ago. So, the market was more open for male Ob/Gyns.

As for Path, I wonder whether the relatively higher %age of women reflects its lifestyle-friendly nature. As most here know, while Rads has a preferable environment in many ways, it is not a lifestyle specialty. I'd be curious to see the trends in PM&R. Only a few people from my school wemt into PM&R in my year and the 2 years ahead of me, and they were all girls.

Do you think the market is not 'open' for male Ob/Gyns currently? How does that relate to the different interests of male vs. female medical students?

Do most medical students believe radiology is not a lifestyle specialty?

 

[WilliamofOckham]

Do you think the market is not 'open' for male Ob/Gyns currently? How does that relate to the different interests of male vs. female medical students?

Do most medical students believe radiology is not a lifestyle specialty?

The market actually is tougher for male Ob/Gyns because as medical students, guys are frequently told by patients that they'd "rather not" be seen by them. This is compounded with the fact that female medical students are more likely to find Ob/Gyn interesting, as it pertains to their own biology. But since Ob/Gyn isn't all that competitive a residency, I assume the former factor is more relevant.

And I'd guess that most medical students only think Rads is a lifestyle specialty unless and until they actually look into the reality of the specialty's day-to-day life. I was almost floored when I saw on the Careers in Medicine site that the mean hours/week worked in DR is 58.

 

[deleted564680]

Do you think the market is not 'open' for male Ob/Gyns currently? How does that relate to the different interests of male vs. female medical students?

Do most medical students believe radiology is not a lifestyle specialty?

Why is it exactly that people like you seek to antagonize others and bring up topics that you want to become inflammatory? Everything doesn't have to be a race or gender issue.

I mean what exactly is your hope? That you start this thread and someone says, "Oh yeah there's a huge bias against women. They suck at rads so PDs don't want to take them." Then, you can go on your crusade and say "HA, blarghag;ha;lkg sexism!"

I love women more than men. What does that make me?

 

[PL198]

Why is it exactly that people like you seek to antagonize others and bring up topics that you want to become inflammatory? Everything doesn't have to be a race or gender issue.

I mean what exactly is your hope? That you start this thread and someone says, "Oh yeah there's a huge bias against women. They suck at rads so PDs don't want to take them." Then, you can go on your crusade and say "HA, blarghag;ha;lkg sexism!"

I love women more than men. What does that make me?

go on your twitter*

99 % of trash collectors ( sanitation consultants for you PC folks) are men. no one complains about that gender disparity.

 

[WilliamofOckham]

go on your twitter*

99 % of trash collectors ( sanitation consultants for you PC folks) are men. no one complains about that gender disparity.

There's a reason why it's called the "glass ceiling" and not the "glass rig" or "glass mineshaft."

 

[Cognovi]

Why is it exactly that people like you seek to antagonize others and bring up topics that you want to become inflammatory? Everything doesn't have to be a race or gender issue.

I mean what exactly is your hope? That you start this thread and someone says, "Oh yeah there's a huge bias against women. They suck at rads so PDs don't want to take them." Then, you can go on your crusade and say "HA, blarghag;ha;lkg sexism!"

I love women more than men. What does that make me?

There may be a misunderstanding. I'm not seeking to antagonize others. I do not want topics I bring up to become inflammatory. Not everything is an "issue." I did not start this thread. I do not believe that A) there is a "huge bias against women", B) "they suck at rads", or C) "PDs don't want to take them." This is not my crusade. I pose questions to seek explanations for the way things are. @WilliamofOckham gave the only reasonable answers in this thread without making inflammatory accusations or dismissive comments.

 

[deleted564680]

There may be a misunderstanding. I'm not seeking to antagonize others. I do not want topics I bring up to become inflammatory. Not everything is an "issue." I did not start this thread. I do not believe that A) there is a "huge bias against women", B) "they suck at rads", or C) "PDs don't want to take them." This is not my crusade. I pose questions to seek explanations for the way things are. @WilliamofOckham gave the only reasonable answers in this thread without making inflammatory accusations or dismissive comments.

It comes across as wanting to be inflammatory because of the current political climate and also because it's a question that doesn't really need an answer. Also, things on forums and in text are by nature more provocative. I gave serious responses to the OP and one to you. People of both genders choose their specialties because that's what they want to do. There are always rumors of bias in ortho surg against women and in ob/gyn against men but I think for the most part it's a non-issue these days.

 

[FranzLO]

Why is pathology, another science-heavy and less social specialty, at gender parity?

Why is there no deficit of older ob/gyns who are males?

It's not as simple as "just think about it."

But you aren't thinking about it from what I read. 85% of ob-gyn residents are women. You have your answers for why there are differences among the generations in this thread. That seems to be a pretty big deficit for the future, no?

 

[PL198]

There's a reason why it's called the "glass ceiling" and not the "glass rig" or "glass mineshaft."

Lol logical consistency not even once

 

[Cognovi]

But you aren't thinking about it from what I read. 85% of ob-gyn residents are women. You have your answers for why there are differences among the generations in this thread. That seems to be a pretty big deficit for the future, no?

Yes it is a deficit. I asked for an explanation of why obgyn has a gender disparity beyond "different likes and dislikes." Do men dislike women's health or reproductive medicine or female patients now more than ever? Or do men feel like this is an increasingly women's specialty where they are not as welcome as before, or where they don't fit is as well as before? I'm just thinking about it.

 

[deleted564680]

Yes it is a deficit. I asked for an explanation of why obgyn has a gender disparity beyond "different likes and dislikes." Do men dislike women's health or reproductive medicine or female patients now more than ever? Or do men feel like this is an increasingly women's specialty where they are not as welcome as before, or where they don't fit is as well as before? I'm just thinking about it.

I'd say it's a bit of all of those depending upon the male in question.

 

[jorts42]

There's a big difference between OB GYN and radiology. Many patients say they're not comfortable with male medical students taking part in their deliveries or pelvic exams but there aren't preferences on which gender reads an image

 

[FranzLO]

Yes it is a deficit. I asked for an explanation of why obgyn has a gender disparity beyond "different likes and dislikes." Do men dislike women's health or reproductive medicine or female patients now more than ever? Or do men feel like this is an increasingly women's specialty where they are not as welcome as before, or where they don't fit is as well as before? I'm just thinking about it.

Sorry, I wasn't really trying to make my opinion clear, I just don't see the point of why care in the first place about how many women are in rads. I could care less about ob-gyn, I just know the point made about older physicians in that specialty is worthless and irrelevant in the future. Does radiology need women? I would say no. Should a woman interested in radiology feel comfortable applying? I would hope so. I just hate when people want some sort of diversity without explaining why and what their goal is. For a society so obsessed with transparency, vague questions about diversity just don't seem to fit.

 

[AlphaBeta<3]

I think women should not be considered in the Underrepresented category. Women are now 49-51% or more in most colleges/universities.

 

[FranzLO]

I think women should not be considered in the Underrepresented category. Women are now 49-51% or more in most colleges/universities.

I agree. Lump them in with Asians and then society is equal and just.

 

[g8orlife]

Just to throw an idea out there that hasn't been mentioned yet, ... I think this information could help some people (who would consider themselves minorities in radiology) who are intimidated by going into a specialty where their colleagues don't look like them or have similar interests as them. This info could make that decision easier by giving them comfort.

Maybe that was the purpose of putting that info on theses SDN forums??? If not, then I agree with you most of you all as to what this info is supposed to accomplish on SDN.

 

[WilliamofOckham]

Just to throw an idea out there that hasn't been mentioned yet, ... I think this information could help some people (who would consider themselves minorities in radiology) who are intimidated by going into a specialty where their colleagues don't look like them or have similar interests as them. This info could make that decision easier by giving them comfort.

Maybe that was the purpose of putting that info on theses SDN forums??? If not, then I agree with you most of you all as to what this info is supposed to accomplish on SDN.

Oh, please.

 

[g8orlife]

 

[WilliamofOckham]

View attachment 205304

I used to think more charitably about people who stir this nest, but no longer.

I don't think there has ever been a medical student alienated from Rads because his or her demographic group wasn't "proportionally" represented.

 

[PL198]

dude rads are nerds. I don't think they are alienating anyone. you want to talk about alienating? plastics, derm,OB; lots more specialties more likely than rads.

 

[JoshSt]

Agree, I think it just happens to appeal to the demographic that happens to occupy it, people who would typically be a computer nerd or general nerd/ geek

As with others, IDK what the real purpose of this thread is - if the interview trail was indicative, the specifically mentioned minorities just didn't apply. In my 4 years of med school, we had plenty of minorities but it was always the same demographic that applied for radiology.

 

[rule out normal]

Despite how awesome radiology is, there is a definite disparity in diversity when compared to other medical specialties. Here is one of my favorite quotes on the subject of diversity in radiology by Dr. Lightfoote and colleagues ..." There is a disconnect between vocal support and quantifiable results,” wrote Lightfoote and colleagues.

Of the top 20 largest Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education (ACGME) training programs, diagnostic radiology ranks ninth in total resident enrollment, yet ranks 18 th among trainees classified as underrepresented minorities. Specifically, radiology ranks 18 th for black, 19th for Hispanic and 16 th for American Indian/Alaska native/Native Hawaiian/Pacific Islander trainees. Radiation oncology has not improved representation among residents since data was first reported annually, according to the authors.

The above quote and data is referenced from an article in Health imaging: http://www.healthimaging.com/topics/practice-management/why-diversity-matters-radiology

The purpose of this thread is to highlight those programs and institutions who are committed to diversity in Medicine specifically diversity in Radiology.

"Everyone thinks diversity in medicine is a great idea until they have to do something about it" B. Coleman

So, let's start a diversity campaign to get more women in radiology. How to do this? You have to sell it like you would any other product. You have to talk people into making the plunge.

What's the result? A person becomes persuaded to do something they wouldn't have otherwise done, and looking back on their decision, they regret being the victim of just the latest half-baked social engineering plot.

They then switch specialties.