What were the unfilled/scramble spots in EM for 2009?

[jazz]

Does anyone have the list? Would be interested if you could post...

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[FDNewbie]

I'm real curious too...

 

[abbaroodle]

.

 

[jazz]

hey thanks for posting...
the DO requirement for rotating internship varies from state to state... but if in Michigan the DO's are required to do a transitional internship, the 4 spots may actually already be filled...i'm not sure exactly how it works

wow what a sparse list...
the genesys is also a combined AOA/ACGME program...i think lehigh valley may be as well...

guess this year was really competitive ... (in the past there have always been many more programs unfilled)... congrats to all who matched!

 

[EM2BE]

Michigan is one of those states.

 

[abbaroodle]

.

 

[mannydoc21]

abbaroodle,
i have to disagree with you about the quality of some of the unfilled programs. My cousin is a resident at Grand Rapids and I have a friend at the University of Puerto Rico and both are very solid programs. They both usually fill their slots during the match but i have no idea what happened this year. Grand Rapids is one of the older EM programs and in a huge level 1 ED. I believe its affiliated with Mich. State. Perhaps the high volume of patients scared away some applicants?? Univ. of PR has a smaller ED but they also get tons of trauma, procedures, and diverse pathology due to the fact that PR only has one trauma center on the entire island. Perhaps the language scared away the applicants??

 

[abbaroodle]

.

 

[southerndoc]

Unfilled programs don't mean they are bad. Plenty of well known, highly respected programs have gone unfilled.

Now if a program goes has to scramble for three or four years in a row, then that would make me concerned about the program.

 

[wckedjkster]

I wasn't even offered an interview at Grand Rapids nor Sparrow, which I consider are very good, well-established programs. they're both affiliated with MSU. My guess would be that not too many are fond of living in northern/west side of michigan.

 

[MountainEM]

Forgive the naive 2nd year ms question....
but why are these unfilled? Don't these spots go out to prospective EM residents who did not match? Did they not even fill during the scramble?

I thought those people who are bummed they did not match into any EM residency would get a shot at these unfilled slots? How does it work?

cheers
d

 

[deleted109597]

Unfilled programs don't mean they are bad. Plenty of well known, highly respected programs have gone unfilled.

Now if a program goes has to scramble for three or four years in a row, then that would make me concerned about the program.

Sparrow has scrambled at least 2 of the last 3 matches, and I can't remember last year if they did.

 

[Dr. Dukes]

Forgive the naive 2nd year ms question....
but why are these unfilled? Don't these spots go out to prospective EM residents who did not match? Did they not even fill during the scramble?

I thought those people who are bummed they did not match into any EM residency would get a shot at these unfilled slots? How does it work?

cheers
d

They were unfilled after the match (last Monday), probably filled during the scramble

 

[ER-ER-Oh]

Sparrow has scrambled at least 2 of the last 3 matches, and I can't remember last year if they did.

Sparrow filled last year, I was the chief resident for recruiting. I suspect applicants just are not thrilled with living in Lansing or Saginaw Michigan. But I also know that applicants seem to be getting much more sure of themselves as far as the match. I met many, many candidates during the interviews who were simply incredibly arrogant. Many were only going to rank their top 4 programs. I know for a fact that there were candidates this year who did not rank Sparrow, only to find them begging for a spot in the scramble.

So I think there is sometimes a level of confidence beyond the person's probability of gaining a spot somewhere. And where Sparrow was concerned when I was there we sometimes only ranked 35 candidates, a very, very short list. This was done simply because we felt if we had to scramble we could get people who were the top of the heap of those that maybe overreached and went for competitive programs they didn't have a realistic chance of getting into. This was considered a better option than ranking people we simply didn't care to have on board.

Two years ago we obtained a guy in the scramble who is the chief resident this year and one of the best residents I've ever worked with. But he got into the process late the year he applied, applied only on the East Coast, and simply was not a good fit for them.

I've noticed ever since I was in medical school that medical education has changed dramatically in the past 5 years or so. Medical schools cater to how students want to be taught and residency programs have followed suit. Many big programs practically have PR people working for them. I went to the SAEM residency fair 3 years ago, and the big programs had slick New York/Madison ave style banners, candy, pens, etc., etc. They were surrounded by med students, like trying to get a date with the prom queen. There were students falling all over themselves trying to get attention from one of the residents. It was like watching high school kids, and it disgusted me.

I'll take the Sparrow program any day. It's a meat and potato type of place...grind it out work, sick patients, 100,000/year census, huge new ED with helicopter. You're not pampered as a resident, you work very independently and have to figure stuff out on your own a lot. You come out of there knowing how to work in the pit, and you pass your boards. Period. No fluff, no big time showmanship.

 

[Snelgrave]

Sparrow filled last year, I was the chief resident for recruiting. ... You come out of there knowing how to work in the pit, and you pass your boards. Period. No fluff, no big time showmanship.

Great post ER-ER-Oh. Sparrow sounds positively sexy now.

 

[Snelgrave]

I was also surprised that a new program did not go unfilled - like UT Chattanooga (go Mocs!) or University Hospitals in Cleveland. I enjoyed my interview at UH very much, but it felt like a program that would be in much better place in 2 or 3 years, and I didn't want to be the guinea pig class. I still ranked it though - I'm not arrogant enough.

 

[NEATOMD]

Sparrow filled last year, I was the chief resident for recruiting. I suspect applicants just are not thrilled with living in Lansing or Saginaw Michigan. But I also know that applicants seem to be getting much more sure of themselves as far as the match. I met many, many candidates during the interviews who were simply incredibly arrogant. Many were only going to rank their top 4 programs. I know for a fact that there were candidates this year who did not rank Sparrow, only to find them begging for a spot in the scramble.

So I think there is sometimes a level of confidence beyond the person's probability of gaining a spot somewhere. And where Sparrow was concerned when I was there we sometimes only ranked 35 candidates, a very, very short list. This was done simply because we felt if we had to scramble we could get people who were the top of the heap of those that maybe overreached and went for competitive programs they didn't have a realistic chance of getting into. This was considered a better option than ranking people we simply didn't care to have on board.

Two years ago we obtained a guy in the scramble who is the chief resident this year and one of the best residents I've ever worked with. But he got into the process late the year he applied, applied only on the East Coast, and simply was not a good fit for them.

I've noticed ever since I was in medical school that medical education has changed dramatically in the past 5 years or so. Medical schools cater to how students want to be taught and residency programs have followed suit. Many big programs practically have PR people working for them. I went to the SAEM residency fair 3 years ago, and the big programs had slick New York/Madison ave style banners, candy, pens, etc., etc. They were surrounded by med students, like trying to get a date with the prom queen. There were students falling all over themselves trying to get attention from one of the residents. It was like watching high school kids, and it disgusted me.

I'll take the Sparrow program any day. It's a meat and potato type of place...grind it out work, sick patients, 100,000/year census, huge new ED with helicopter. You're not pampered as a resident, you work very independently and have to figure stuff out on your own a lot. You come out of there knowing how to work in the pit, and you pass your boards. Period. No fluff, no big time showmanship.

I think that the "unfilled" status of Sparrow must have something to do with the way they are reporting since they have spots reserved for DO's from last years match. I thought Lansing seemed like a great program. The hospital was one of the nicest of the programs I interviewed at (maybe, the nicest). The residents there were great too. Unfortunately, I was a little afraid of the cold weather and the fact that Michigan's economy seems to be in the gutter, which trickles down to everyone in the state. With those factors seeming to be the largest possible contributors, I'm having a hard time understanding how Lansing wouldn't fill and Saginaw would. Again, nothing against Saginaw but it seems like it would have had about the same difficulty as Lansing and Grand Rapids.

 

[tkim]

And where Sparrow was concerned when I was there we sometimes only ranked 35 candidates, a very, very short list. This was done simply because we felt if we had to scramble we could get people who were the top of the heap of those that maybe overreached and went for competitive programs they didn't have a realistic chance of getting into. This was considered a better option than ranking people we simply didn't care to have on board.

I find this line of reasoning a little disturbing.

Programs not filling cause people to wonder what went wrong. It usually results in someone from the program to post something along the lines of what you said - scramble vs ranking people we don't want. The solution seems to be to interview enough people to have enough people to rank in order to fill without having to resort to the scramble, not the reverse.

Getting people from the 'top of the heap of people who didn't have a realistic chance of matching into the programs they interviewed at' sounds like the same group of smug candidates that only ranked 4-5 programs that overeached and were overconfident in their abilities in matching. As I recall you didn't think much of them during interview, but you're entertaining signing those same people during the scramble?

It doesn't make sense.

Buffalo didn't fill last year. We didn't rank enough people. Period.

 

[deleted109597]

Hey, that's their reasoning. I can't say I fault it, as I've seen lots of very well qualified people left out of the match. If they're choosy enough on scramble day, since this isn't FM or IM, where half the pool is scramblers, they can get some really good candidates. 3 matches ago, they had half of the scramble spots available (3 of 6) for 1-3 programs.
I'm with ER-ER-Oh in that many of the people are arrogant and "what can the program do for me" mentality, but that's the way most people are brought up. Especially the AOA type. I mean, look at the threads on here about people getting letters from PDs, etc. It's a popularity contest.
The only differences I find between programs are the number and length of shifts, the type (1-3, 2-4, 1-4), geography, and "intangibles". Some things I think are important. Not having enough staff means that you do your blood draws, IVs, transporting, etc. I don't think of that as training, I think of it as scut. Will it help in the real world when someone can't get an IV? Not really, because someone with an U/S probe can likely put in a line on anyone better than the best PICU nurse. I'm not saying people shouldn't be practicing IVs, but that it shouldn't be a requirement to get the job done. Lots of people want to work as little as possible for the most pay, and I don't think that's going to help them in the future.

 

[igcgnerd]

Th e AOA positions are not reported as unfilled for dual programs. When DO interns have matched both into the internship and residency, they first year of their EM residency is reported as filled and does not enter into the match as available. Any positions for that program that was open and was now unfilled has nothing to do with the DO interns. When Do's match into that program they match both the internship and the residency through the AOA match.

 

[jbar]

Th e AOA positions are not reported as unfilled for dual programs. When DO interns have matched both into the internship and residency, they first year of their

I think he meant Alpha Omega Alpha, the national honor society for medical schools, not the American Osteopathic Association.

 

[Hard24Get]

I think he meant Alpha Omega Alpha, the national honor society for medical schools, not the American Osteopathic Association.

I think igcnerd was referring to post#6 though.


Everyone told me I'd match in my top 3 for sure. But i ranked all 12 places I interviewed at. What is wrong with people? Arrogant or not, that is just dumb! I also think ti is arrogant of programs not to rank enough, but I understand some people you'd rather take your chances than rank (so interview more!). At least half the list of unfilled programs are very reputable and popular, so this shouldn't have happened. But hey, people are unpredictabe, I'm surprised the match goes as well as it does!

 

[AmoryBlaine]

I find this line of reasoning a little disturbing.

Programs not filling cause people to wonder what went wrong. It usually results in someone from the program to post something along the lines of what you said - scramble vs ranking people we don't want. The solution seems to be to interview enough people to have enough people to rank in order to fill without having to resort to the scramble, not the reverse.

Getting people from the 'top of the heap of people who didn't have a realistic chance of matching into the programs they interviewed at' sounds like the same group of smug candidates that only ranked 4-5 programs that overeached and were overconfident in their abilities in matching. As I recall you didn't think much of them during interview, but you're entertaining signing those same people during the scramble?

It doesn't make sense.

Buffalo didn't fill last year. We didn't rank enough people. Period.

Many good points here. The bottom line is that he's talking about a community program in a small city -- something that alot of applicants are just not looking for. I suspect that that has far more to do with its not filling than that arrogance of residency candidates. Yeah yeah yeah I'm sure it's totally crazy and full of sick people but every single EM program in the country makes that exact same promise.

From an applicant perspective you here the same platitudes repeated at every stop on the trail -- sick patients, autonomy, good peds, excitement, crazy room, great job placement -- they become null and void. The academic places promise the world and the community programs promise just as much along with a sort of practical legitimacy.

 

[deleted109597]

What I learned at a community program in a small city doing surgery last year is one huge thing that will stick with me for life.
Community programs respect their doctors. Not that some academic places don't, but the community places will pull out all the stops. I'm talking free parking, free food, free books, etc. I got more moving allowance and book money from my prelim than I do for my entire residency in EM. The ED at that place had more volume than my ED here, simply because they had built a brand new ED there a few years prior. They just finished building a new OR as well. Simply because unlike academic places, they have to make people happy to keep coming there. They can't sit back and expect people to come to them because "they're the tertiary center" or whatever. It seriously made me want to go back there as an ED attending.

 

[Saladin MD]

deleted...wrong thread