OT: Thread of not-so-awesome

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Marsala

Western C/O 2016!
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So...I just looked up my student loans for my undergad and am wondering if anyone else has done the same and had the same feeling of nausea and hopelessness that I currently am experiencing.:eek::scared::barf::wow::help::boom:

(I'm sure this can apply to professional school loans as well).

Also, on the AVMA site they state that the average loan indebtedness for a recent vet school grad is $106,000. I was expecting much more (not that the number is tiny by any means). Any thoughts?

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Right now, I'm about $50 000 in debt.

About $34 000 of that is student loans. $16 000 of that is a student line of credit.

What makes it worse is that I go to a school where all of the students graduating with me live at home with their parents and have no debt or little debt.

I am super stressed out about it. The only way I can start to knock this debt down is to live at home and work a crummy job for a year or two. But I will not live at home and work. I WILL NOT DO IT.

Vet school is going to cost me ~$80 000... but at least I know I'm going to have a job when I come out. Right now, my chances of getting a job that's not minumum wage with only a BSc is slim.
 
Also, on the AVMA site they state that the average loan indebtedness for a recent vet school grad is $106,000. I was expecting much more (not that the number is tiny by any means). Any thoughts?

My thoughts are: I'm fortunate to have a reason to take out ridiculous sums of money to pay for this education because it is 100% what I want to do with my life. Right? :rolleyes: If I happen to get accepted after my interview, I'm looking at $49k per year of tuition, so approximately $200k total debt. I'm REALLY lucky though in that my parents saved up to pay for my (in-state) undergraduate tuition, so I currently have zero debt. (Avoiding debt is something my father really squashed into my brain throughout my life after dealing with his own financial ****storms so I pay off my credit card every month, etc). My long-term boyfriend plans to buy a house before I finish school so that we can live together and he can feed me and I can pay off my loans. He's talked about helping pay off my loans as well, which makes me love him even more. Obviously there are no guarantees in life, but I sure hope that path is the one I end up on!
 
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Currently in undergrad. Will have about 40K at the end of undergrad. Who knows about vet school, since it will probably be out of state. So I'm thinking my loans are going to be quite large.
 
I am lucky enough to have zero debt at the moment, but looking into vet school, I am gonna be going into probably $150,000-200,000 debt when all is said and done :eek:.

I did my undergrad college as a post secondary student, so everything was paid for :D. My parents paid for the final year (I completed 3 years of my bachelor's degree in my junior and senior year of high school and had just one year left to complete after graduating from high school) since I had worked so hard as a post secondary student :).

It will all work out though. We'll have jobs we love and will be able to pay off our loans by retirement age hopefully :laugh:
 
ugh, i have $40,000 in student loans JUST FROM UG :(
my family is dirt poor and i've had to work pretty much all through college (Work study during the year, vet jobs during the summer).

my dad just lost his job...so it's not looking good for me in vet school either (i'd be class of 2016 hopefully)

from vet school i'll probably have anywhere between $150,000-$250,000 in debt, depending on where i go. my mom has offered to help me as much as she can, but it's not going to be much. so in all, i'd probably have minimum anywhere from $200,000-$300,000 by the time i'm done. YIKES

luckily, i've never had a credit card (i live pretty much on cash + my debit card) so i don't have any debt in that area.

i've been freaking out about debt for a very long time. not a pleasant future for me ahead...especially since i'm going to be doing an internship + residency for 3-4 years after graduating, during which i won't be making much money. oh the sacrifices we make for our dreams!
 
I was also lucky enough to have parents who started early and saved enough for me to attend a state school for undergrad - thank you 'rents! But vet school is all on me...$45,000 this year alone but hoping it will be less with getting IS residency next year. As much as it scares the living crap out of me that I have this over my head, there is literally nothing I can do about it right now if I want this career. I'm living frugally, eating cheaply, and crossing my fingers that I'll be paying $20,000 less for each of the next three years. I'll deal with the loans once I'm out with a job.
 
luckily, i've never had a credit card (i live pretty much on cash + my debit card) so i don't have any debt in that area.

I never had a credit card either until starting vet school, and I definitely recommend that you get one. I use it to pay everything - groceries, bills, gas, etc. Now, I'm not an outrageous spender (I have trouble parting with $2.00 for an after-finals milkshake) and have no concerns about me racking up debt - others might be different. The benefit is that at the end of the month I get a statement showing me exactly where all of my money goes and I pay it off in full each month from my checking account and student loans. I'm not paying any additional fees for this and am building a strong credit rating in the process. You NEED to have credit if you need loans for anything in the future - housing, cars, etc. Better to start building it now than when it's too late. It's also great that I have cash-back rewards (most cards have something like this) and have saved some significant dollars for doing nothing other than paying for the bare necessities.

Something to strongly consider as you move into professional school!!!
 
My mom is always so depressed that she can't help me more in school, but she simply doesn't have the money. She can barely pay for my parents' bills.

BUT I am very fortunate because my parents do help me out. They pay for my groceries and books. Which is nice to not have to be in the grocery store and ration my food to fit a budget. It isn't much, like paying for tuition, but it's extremely helpful!

I envy those who come out of school with little to no debt! Kudos to you.
 
So...I just looked up my student loans for my undergad and am wondering if anyone else has done the same and had the same feeling of nausea and hopelessness that I currently am experiencing.

Also, on the AVMA site they state that the average loan indebtedness for a recent vet school grad is $106,000. I was expecting much more (not that the number is tiny by any means). Any thoughts?

Huh, weird. I was expecting more too! Hm....

I envy those who come out of school with little to no debt! Kudos to you.
Agreed! I've got over $40,000 in loans and all other such business. It makes me want to throw up most times. (Particularly the first time I looked at it when I was a wee freshman!) And I zapped my life-savings to pay for last semester. Now, back to the hellhole job I had before ;)
 
I try not to stress about the loans. On some level, it barely even seems like real money. I get a statement a few times a year with a balance, but nobody ever comes to my house with a pipe wrench looking for a payment.

You've got to just consider it as an advance on the salary you'll be getting later.

Equally, I guess I've been poor all of my life, and the only thing the bank can do is make me poor again. They can't repo my degree.
 
Equally, I guess I've been poor all of my life, and the only thing the bank can do is make me poor again. They can't repo my degree.

However, some states (most?) will suspend license holders who are in default on their student loans. While it isn't a degree repo, it might as well be
 
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However, some states (most?) will suspend license holders who are in default on their student loans. While it isn't a degree repo, it might as well be

That's a pretty mean-spirited law.

I just did a bit of looking into it and it looks like license suspension is the end of a pretty long road of ignoring bills.

Equally, I'm not advocating not paying what you owe. (Or double negatives.) But realistically, with the earning potential we'll all hopefully have, I think it would be difficult to not be able to meet the minimum payments of most normal loan amounts.
Especially if you have no problem with some good, old fashioned Poverty.
 
It pains me to think about it. I am just about debt free now thanks to an academic scholarship in addition to working my butt off throughout undergrad, but I will be out 200K after vet school. Mom and dad are unemployed and have been for a while/throughout my life, so I will be paying for school without their help. I absolutely hate filling out all the stupid nitty gritty questions on FAFSA and the CSS Profile about my parents - it sucks that just because you have parents and aren't an orphan, it is assumed that your parents are helping pay for your education. My case is extreme, but even parents with 2 or 3 children all going to college would find it hard to pay for all that tuition PLUS graduate/professional school, right? I want a box that says "click here if you parents are not helping you whatsoever" or one that says "click here if your parents would prefer not to sell their house and live on the street to contribute to your education"...okay rant over. But bottom line is, I feel your pain OP.
 
My parents won't be paying for vet school either. They help me pay for undergrad only because it is inexpensive because of scholarships and grants, but I have to commute an hour each way plus do work study to pay for gas. I'm definately going to go to the cheapest vet school I can get into because I met a vet recently and although she did say it was a great field to get into, she was a little more honest than some of the other vets I've been around. She said her debt was astronomical. Basically, she went to Ross for two years than Mississippi out of state, and she said of her graduating class (1995, I believe) of the people she keeps in touch with, she's the only one who will be out of debt in a few years. She said that it took her a while to learn how to handle it because she did not know at first how to apply the payments to the principal and stuff like that. She got some money for treating large animals from the state, but something about it went to the wrong place.

She also told me that while she and her husband have some land now, his parents paid entirely for his college and they basically camp out on their property with generators in place of electricity and no cable. Definately scary:scared:
 
...and no cable.

I like how that's part of your scary scenario :laugh:.

Also, on the AVMA site they state that the average loan indebtedness for a recent vet school grad is $106,000. I was expecting much more (not that the number is tiny by any means). Any thoughts?

The latest statistic I've found is that the average debt for the c/o 2010 was $133,873. In any case, whether it's $100,000 or $200,000 it is definitely something to think about before you commit to vet school.

It's scary. It sucks, and it sucks even more when you see tuition go up each year. I obviously can't comment on how this debt load affects life after graduation, and maybe I'm too optimistic about it (there are lots of doom-and-gloom, soon-it'll-be-a-profession-for-the-rich veterinary debt discussions out there)... but I do think that it can be manageable. I'll get back to you on that in about 3 years ;)
 
I never had a credit card either until starting vet school, and I definitely recommend that you get one. I use it to pay everything - groceries, bills, gas, etc. Now, I'm not an outrageous spender (I have trouble parting with $2.00 for an after-finals milkshake) and have no concerns about me racking up debt - others might be different. The benefit is that at the end of the month I get a statement showing me exactly where all of my money goes and I pay it off in full each month from my checking account and student loans. I'm not paying any additional fees for this and am building a strong credit rating in the process. You NEED to have credit if you need loans for anything in the future - housing, cars, etc. Better to start building it now than when it's too late. It's also great that I have cash-back rewards (most cards have something like this) and have saved some significant dollars for doing nothing other than paying for the bare necessities.

Something to strongly consider as you move into professional school!!!

i've been debating back and forth lately whether to get a credit card and just control myself really carefully when it comes to using it...i'm just afraid i'm going to spend like crazy and not be able to pay it off. not that i'm a big spender, but that's mainly because i KNOW that my debit card is all "real" money.

i mean...i am 21 now, so i feel like i should have a credit card...just nervous about getting one for some reason.
 
i've been debating back and forth lately whether to get a credit card and just control myself really carefully when it comes to using it...i'm just afraid i'm going to spend like crazy and not be able to pay it off. not that i'm a big spender, but that's mainly because i KNOW that my debit card is all "real" money.

i mean...i am 21 now, so i feel like i should have a credit card...just nervous about getting one for some reason.

I can definitely understand being nervous about it, especially after hearing about a ton of doom-and-gloom scenarios in undergrad. Honestly, you seem like someone who understands the value of money and that it doesn't just magically appear for your use. I doubt you'll have a big issue. If you're worried about this, maybe start by using your credit card for the "necessities" only - rent, gas, phone bill, health/car insurance, groceries. Use your debit card and cash for anything "fun" so that you're more aware the money you're using is "real" - movies, snacks, books, out with friends, etc.

I think the trap for people is getting in the habit of not paying off their entire bill when they get their statement. For my card, I only have to pay $15 per month and I'll have met the minimum payment for the month! Ridiculous! But I've always been taught to pay off the entire thing each time you get a statement. If you don't have the money to back a purchase you make with a credit card, don't make it!
 
i've been debating back and forth lately whether to get a credit card and just control myself really carefully when it comes to using it...i'm just afraid i'm going to spend like crazy and not be able to pay it off. not that i'm a big spender, but that's mainly because i KNOW that my debit card is all "real" money.

i mean...i am 21 now, so i feel like i should have a credit card...just nervous about getting one for some reason.

Really as long as you treat the credit card like a debit card, it's not a big deal. I have a credit card that I mainly use for everyday purchases because my bank account has a set limit on debit purchases per month and I hate trying to keep track of how many I've made. I pay off the credit card in total every month, so I never pay interest charges. It's a student card, so no annual fees. Plus I actually get a small cash rebate back on my purchases. If anything, I think I may be costing my credit card company money.
 
I used to pay off my credit card right away with cash in my chequing account. Then I got a line of credit... so now I'm paying off my credit card with my line of credit and it seems kind of pointless.

Student loan only covers tuition + rent for me. It doesn't cover books, transportation, groceries, travel, internet, ect. and what my mom sends me a month doesn't really satisfy that. She sends me $100 a month... my bus pass is $45, internet is $50, groceries are usually $100+, gerbils are $20, books at the beginning of each semester, clothes (I put on a pound or two and three pairs of my jeans now don't fit... not cheap!)... and what if I want coffee with a friend? Gaaaah.

The funny thing is, I did work so I could afford these items. But... the amount I made was taken off my student loan the following year. So I was still paying for this out of my line of credit. Plus I had to pay $6-12 to get too and from my job, so I lost money in transportation.

Darn you.

It's not like I could have saved money by living with my folks. Closest university is an hour away... and tuition there is $1400 more expensive than here.

I wish that they educated us on student loans in high school. They never touched on it. All they said was "Go to school next year and apply for all of the bursaries you qualify for." If I ever run into them again, I'm going to grab them by their shoulders and scream "WHY DIDN'T YOU WARN ME!"

End rant.

But yeah... I'm constantly stressed because of this. I'm always at a 4 on the stress scale... when you add the stress of tests, assignments, and dealing with other stressed out people around you, it easily reaches an 7 or 8 at least one a week. I hit a 10 the other night... first time this semester... it wasn't pretty.
 
DVM360 reported last year's graduating average student debt at $129,976.

"Additionally, about a third of new graduates indicated a desire in the future to pursue additional board-certified specialties in the future, despite the survey's acknowledgement that 88.6 percent of students had debt at the time of graduation. All but 9.6 percent of those students, however, only incurred their debt while they were in veterinary school. But debt increased 8.5 percent over last year, with the average student owing about $129,976 upon graduation. More than a third of new graduates owed more than $150,000. "

What amazes me is how many had $0 debt coming into vet school. In another thread where we were discussing whether or not financial costs of vet med may scare folks off, to me that low of a percentage having previous student debt is an indication that it is quite a possibility. Even at a cheap in state school, your looking at over $120k in debt if you aren't getting assistance elsewhere (scholarships, parents, etc) and strangely, some of my classmates don't think living with thier parents is 'assistance.'

I think the $106k was an old number (I think it was 2007), saddly enough. In several articles by the AVMA in 2009 over $120k was quoted. As for whether it will have an impact and whether it will be difficult to pay back, I know several vets paying over $2k a month in student loans...which is more than the mortgage payments my husband and I make on both of our houses combined, and one of our houses is a half-million dollar home.

The AVMA found other issues contribute to that, like less tendancy towards ownership in younger vets, and less confidence in ability to practice medicine (and feeling a need for internships. The good news is that AAHA recorded an increase of 12% in associate salaries.

I honestly think, based on what I have read and advice from folks who track vet business markets, that the best thing most vets can do is acquire specialized skills early (without pursueing a specialty) so that when they go to find jobs they can share their ability to do something more for clients like behavior work, nutrition, ultrasound, etc. The vets that I have talked to who own their practce less than 5 years after school all said they developed some skill that other vets shied away from to develop a client base that was underserved. One vet actually worked a regular clinic, then did Sx that other vets didn't want to do at their clinics. Others learned sports med and accupuncture. Also, while your in vet school there are cheaper oppurtunities to take some of these courses. I attended an ultrasound clinic for 1/3 the price because I am a student and I volunteered a pet for use.) I'm taking an extra course in exotics nutrition to better serve special species/exotics clients. When I interviewed for externships, I was told that this extra work really stood out and made owners comfortable that I was committed to going beyond the requirements. It also gave me an oppurtunity to show what I learned in one clinic...the Dr had a tech bring in her dog (very calm, didn't need sedation), who has splenic nodules, and asked me to find the anomaly. It was a great reinforcer for taking that time off from studying to learn (and it did reinforce anatomy for me.)
 
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I'm personally always shocked by my peers' disregard for tuition costs when picking veterinary programs... I've been told by several different people "I'm shooting for Penn!" or "I'd definitely go to Cornell!" and I'm definitely in the minority when it comes to just wanting to go somewhere cheap. For example, I would really love to go to Western - the PBL is very appealing to me - or attend school internationally for the experience, but cost-wise, it's just not an option. So I won't.

Thankfully, I'm in a relatively unique situation in that I have the benefit of being able to use my father's GI bill when the time comes, so I'll graduate with considerably less debt than most. I'm more and more thankful for it as time proceeds.
 
My parents told me they would pay for vet school as long as I provided and paid for veterinary services for their pets after I graduate from vet school. Considering they're going to have three older cats and two older dachshunds, it will be expensive but probably less overall than student loans (especially if I go to an OOS school). Plus it will be nice to be able to control the kind of medical care their pets will receive (since they're kinda my pets too...). Gallons of respect to those of you who are doing it by yourselves!
 
I'm personally always shocked by my peers' disregard for tuition costs when picking veterinary programs... I've been told by several different people "I'm shooting for Penn!" or "I'd definitely go to Cornell!" and I'm definitely in the minority when it comes to just wanting to go somewhere cheap. For example, I would really love to go to Western - the PBL is very appealing to me - or attend school internationally for the experience, but cost-wise, it's just not an option. So I won't.

Thankfully, I'm in a relatively unique situation in that I have the benefit of being able to use my father's GI bill when the time comes, so I'll graduate with considerably less debt than most. I'm more and more thankful for it as time proceeds.

I'm just shooting for where ever I can get in, which is nowhere this year, whomp :( I only applied to one school for family and affordability reasons which sounds silly, but... next year will be a different tactic.

I guess next year I'll apply to multiple schools, but will then be a WV resident where I have NO state school ( I was VA this year), but a few contract schools which offer IS for WV residents. But hey if OhioSU as an OOS resident is the only school I can get in to, then 60,000 a year it is then. My husband is already paying 50,000 a year for med school. :(

I have about 60,000 undergraduate loans.

Luckily I grew up poor lol so I'm sort of use to it, that being said I grew up watching my family being miserable with their jobs. I have so much joy in my heart knowing that won't happen to me!! :love:
 
I don't know where the OP got their number from, but the average veterinary student indebtedness is much higher then $106K currently. The AVMA publishes a study of veterinary graduates every year, usually in the fall. The 2010 publication for 2010 grads came out this past October (citation: October 1, 2010, Vol. 237, No. 7, Pages 795-798). It states that for 2010 the average indebtedness is $133,873 with an average starting salary for private practice veterinarians of $67,359.

Not trying to completely rain on everyone's parade, but as a 2011 grad facing those numbers I'm TERRIFIED. That works out to ~$1600 per month in loan repayments. Those numbers are really very scary. I don't know that I would have gone to vet school at all if I had a better grasp on those numbers before I applied. I certainly would have worked and saved more and then found a cheaper place to live first year.

The veterinary profession and education is fast becoming (already is?) financially unrealistic.

Agreed. The financials of becoming a vet are really, really depressing.
 
Looking at the astronomical debt I'm going to be in when I earn my DVM at 48 yrs old, I am seriously considering taking the MCAT. Same years of schooling (assuming I do a vet residency, which I would plan on doing), same debt, but $200,000+ salary versus $70,000. Something to think about...
 
Looking at the astronomical debt I'm going to be in when I earn my DVM at 48 yrs old, I am seriously considering taking the MCAT. Same years of schooling (assuming I do a vet residency, which I would plan on doing), same debt, but $200,000+ salary versus $70,000. Something to think about...
I think the same way sometimes. It scares me.:rolleyes:
 
That works out to ~$1600 per month in loan repayments.

The veterinary profession and education is fast becoming (already is?) financially unrealistic.

$67,359 - $19,200 (1600 x 12months) = $48,159

If living on 50K terrifies you, I think your threshold for terror is rather low.
 
Looking at the astronomical debt I'm going to be in when I earn my DVM at 48 yrs old, I am seriously considering taking the MCAT. Same years of schooling (assuming I do a vet residency, which I would plan on doing), same debt, but $200,000+ salary versus $70,000. Something to think about...

Really? Are you like going to take it in the next two months and then not go if you get a good score? You just got in to vet school!
 
Dsmoody, Jochebed has a young son, which is why 50k is indeed scary - children are expensive.

In addition, you'd be paying that extra 20k a year for MANY years. Are you prepared to raise a family, buy a home, send your kids to college, etc on 50k? Sure, people do it, but it's very difficult at times. Unless your husband or wife and take on the majority of expenses .

And honestly, considering how much schooling we are forced to undergo - yes, I do feel like we are entitled to more. I have been scraping by for eight years on loans, and am now looking forward to scraping by for another three on a meager resident salary. I won't be making a livable salary (and yes, even the average pay of specialists is NOT keeping up with the debt) until I'm perhaps almost 30 years old, and interest on my debts just keeps rising at that lovely 6.8% rate.

I'll be renting sh**ty student apartments until I'm 30+. And I'm a doctor. Brilliant. I will have spent a third of my time on this earth scraping by financially, always praying nothing bad will happen to my car, or my dog, or whatever, because I can't afford it.

And you may say well, you chose this path. You're right, I did. My issue is not with the salary - animal life is always going to be valued more than human life, so our salaries are likely never going to increase. My issue is with the outrageous tuition increases and lack of viable financial alternatives besides loans with disgusting interest rates.
 
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Dsmoody, Jochebed has a young son, which is why 50k is indeed scary - children are expensive.

In addition, you'd be paying that extra 20k a year for MANY years. Are you prepared to raise a family, buy a home, send your kids to college, etc on 50k? Sure, people do it, but it's very difficult at times. Unless your husband or wife and take on the majority of expenses .

And honestly, considering how much schooling we are forced to undergo - yes, I do feel like we are entitled to more. I have been scraping by for eight years on loans, and am now looking forward to scraping by for another three on a meager resident salary. I won't be making a good salary (and yes, even the average pay of specialists is NOT keeping up with the debt) until I'm perhaps almost 30 years old, and interest on my debts just keeps rising at that lovely 6.8% rate.

"The U.S. Census Bureau announced today that real median household income in the United States in 2009 was $49,777."

That's household.

And that income allows for the raising of children, the purchase of homes, cars, pets, etc.

I understand that 67K starting salary is not in line with other professional graduates, but I don't think that information was hidden from any of you guys before enrollment.

It just seems needless to overemphasize the debt burden with words like 'terror' and 'scraping by' when the starting salary allows for a perfectly comfortable standard of living.

The undergrads and applicants in this forum are already stressed and uncertain enough without throwing fuel on the fire.
 
"The U.S. Census Bureau announced today that real median household income in the United States in 2009 was $49,777."

That's household.

And that income allows for the raising of children, the purchase of homes, cars, pets, etc.

And this is fair to point out. But do those households with a median income of $49,777 also have a median educational debt of $133,000 also hanging over their heads (in addition to mortgages, cars, kids, and all of the other stuff for which we want to hold jobs in order to afford)? Not likely.

The income itself isn't the issue. The issue is the disparity between the time and money needed to graduate and said income that can't reasonably finance that investment.

The undergrads and applicants in this forum are already stressed and uncertain enough without throwing fuel on the fire.

This is EXACTLY the kind of talk they need to be hearing. I'm totally happy with my career path and wouldn't choose anything else - as much as the debt load DOES terrify me, I have faith it will work out. All the same, applicants and undergrads NEED to hear the very real news that debts are skyrocketing and salaries (and job placements) are stagnant. For an older applicant or one that has no choice but to attend school as a non-resident (which can be a pricy choice) or, heck, anybody, this is information and dialogue that they need to consider before committing. It's a very real issue in the veterinary community and nearly every vet I have come into contact with has said something along the lines of, "I'm so glad I'm not going to school these days considering the tuition you pay." Scaring people has nothing to do with it - informing them of a decision that will positively and possibly negatively influence the rest of their lives is what conversations like this are for.
 
And this is fair to point out. But do those households with a median income of $49,777 also have a median educational debt of $133,000 also hanging over their heads (in addition to mortgages, cars, kids, and all of the other stuff for which we want to hold jobs in order to afford)? Not likely.

As always, context is key.

My original comment was in response to a poster being 'terrified' that the 'average starting salary for private practice veterinarians (is) $67,359.' Subtracting the yearly loan payments of ~$19,200, you end up with around $50,000.

Which is almost exactly what the average household makes in this country. We're not talking about single earners, but entire households. Those households manage to afford mortgages, cars, kids, and all of the other stuff with alarming regularity.

It seems like this issue is less about the rising degree of debt, and more about what you guys feel like you're entitled to be paid once you graduate.

We're all worried about tuition costs and we're all aware that those costs are rising, but stating that the starting salary can't "reasonably finance that investment," is false and misleading.
 
If we're discussing average household incomes across the United States and thinking about it in relation to what veterinary school graduates will see as the amount they actually have to live off of, it is important to break down things by region. If you are planning on working in areas with a much higher average income and cost of living, with around $50k to live on, you're going to find it a lot more difficult than if you're living and working in a rural area that has average incomes and costs of living of a much lower amount.

We're looking at a lot of debt in our future if we both do everything we want to do. But you can't sit and focus on that. You just have to work on living within your means. Whatever that means, you have to do it. Of course, you have to decide what is most important and make sure you don't get yourself into trouble by pegging the wrong thing as most important.

And for those considering credit cards, they are good to have, as long as you set rules for yourself and follow them, with no exceptions. If you don't follow those rules, you will get yourself into some trouble. I can speak from experience. But credit cards are good if they are used correctly (most people don't use them correctly). They provide you with a means for purchasing things safely online (you can use your debit card, but if that number gets stolen, your bank account can get cleaned out and recovering that money is difficult...whereas, credit card companies will reimburse you), you have something there for emergency expenses (like car repairs, etc.), and you start building your credit, which is important for later on when you want to get a car loan or mortgage or any other credit line. The student credit cards all tend to have a low limit, which is good when you're just figuring out how to use the credit card and creating habits that will keep you from overspending later on.
 
This will sound awfully elitist, but it's really not fair to compare the salary of a highly educated, competitive, individual with the household income of the average American.

The average American doesn't finish college. Only 7% of Americans have Master's degrees. And, a mere 3% have a doctorate or professional degree.
 
I know I've already contributed to the thread but I wanted to add that this very reason is why I'm considering (more and more) going into the corporate/government/research side of things. I know not everyone on "that side" makes tons of money but it seems that its generally a more comfortable lifestyle, money AND timewise. I wouldn't apply to vet school just for the money and lifestyle, obviously, but I think its a major consideration that ties in not only to debts but family concerns that have appeared in many other threads.

I really need to start doing my own research on this. So far, all that I know is that (if I get in) I'm going to be in a lot of debt. My boyfriend keeps insisting he'll pay off/help pay off my loans within the first couple of years which would be sweet but I'm just not sure of all of those little loopholes and catch ups that I'm sure exist in the financial contract :confused:
 
If I could get $50k a year and only have $1600/month student loan payments, heck, I'd be all set. Then again, I have a SO who supports me, and a very modest standard of living. My goal in life is to help animals, and be able to pay half the rent.
On a different note, I read recently that is costs over $200k to raise a child, not including paying for college. I'm not sure how accurate that number is, but the fact of the matter is that kids are expensive! If you are not planning on having kids (and are careful not to actually have any) then you should consider the fact that you do not have that major expense that most people end up having.

Not really sure where I'm going with this. I hate being in debt too, which is why I'm trying to limit myself to applying to my IS. Even then I still question, pretty much daily, whether or not I should be taking it on.
 
This will sound awfully elitist, but it's really not fair to compare the salary of a highly educated, competitive, individual with the household income of the average American.

The average American doesn't finish college. Only 7% of Americans have Master's degrees. And, a mere 3% have a doctorate or professional degree.

Again, it's not about what you think you deserve.

The comment was in reference to the starting salary being enough to live comfortably on. Which it easily is, even while making maximum loan payments.

You're not going to have a BMW in the driveway for a while, but did you really expect to be immediately wealthy after practicing medicine for 30 minutes? A degree isn't a golden ticket. You still have to start at the bottom, and do quality work over a substantial period of time to advance in pay.

Equally, there are many educational degrees at the doctorate and masters level which are associated with a low starting salary. And there are plumbers and electricians who never took a class after high school, but will out-earn you every year. Your argument is elitist, but it's based on your sense of entitlement instead of logic.
 
On a different note, I read recently that is costs over $200k to raise a child, not including paying for college. I'm not sure how accurate that number is, but the fact of the matter is that kids are expensive! If you are not planning on having kids (and are careful not to actually have any) then you should consider the fact that you do not have that major expense that most people end up having.

I also read that number somewhere...I'm thinking it must have been in Time or a similarly 'big' publication. I haven't done any calculations, but I guarantee the accuracy of that claim varies wildly. It depends upon a lot of factors. Do you buy only brand new and name brand (or designer) clothing and shoes for them? Do you eat only organics purchased from Wholefoods Market? Do you pay tuition for the top daycares, pre-schools, and public schools? Do they participate in extracurriculars that cost hundreds of dollars per semester? Do you grow a garden and preserve/can foods and cook from scratch to save on your grocery bill? Do you routinely shop at yardsales and resale stores, or only things on sale or with coupons? Do you homeschool and use only materials you can find cheaply or for free or that you create yourself? Do you require them to pick only one extracurricular because you won't spend beyond a certain amount of money? There are a whole host of factors that play into this cost. But I haven't crunched any numbers, so I don't know exactly what those factors mean. I'm hoping that we don't end up spending that much per child...although it's highly possible. If we do spend $200k per child, that will be $600k with the 3 we have right now. :eek::eek::eek:

But, really, I think the main point that should be driven home is that people can live within their means if they really try. There are a myriad of ways in which to do so. Some of them take extra planning and work and some of them might require a person to become a little humble or a little more sure of themselves. But it can be done. And it can be done without screaming to the world that you're "poor" (which sometimes you feel when a huge chunk of your monthly paycheck goes to a variety of lenders and other bills, even if that paycheck is pretty huge). And with the income we're referring to (after student loans are taken out), you can definitely live within your means while raising a family. People do it on less all the time.

I have to agree with DsMoody...feeling entitled to get more pay is a bit elitist....then again...you worked hard to get a particular title and degree. I can sympathize with both sides of this conversation because my husband and I came from meager backgrounds (although my family made substantially more than his family, but made a lot of financial mistakes)...my husband worked really hard and got his undergraduate degree at a prestigious school, in addition to his military experience and training. So we've had discussions about his yearly earnings compared to those he graduated with...what he should be asking for when interviewing for a new job or for a pay raise, etc... So isn't someone who worked hard entitled to feel entitled to getting paid what they deserve? :laugh: I think most people who have really thought things through understand both sides of the matter, and may have simply come to the conclusion that one side or the other doesn't matter. Others, like me, may just kind of shrug it off, wishing that the pay were more like that of doctors in human medicine, but understanding that even though it might be hard, you will be getting a living wage.
 
I also read that number somewhere...I'm thinking it must have been in Time or a similarly 'big' publication. I haven't done any calculations, but I guarantee the accuracy of that claim varies wildly. It depends upon a lot of factors. Do you buy only brand new and name brand (or designer) clothing and shoes for them? Do you eat only organics purchased from Wholefoods Market? Do you pay tuition for the top daycares, pre-schools, and public schools? Do they participate in extracurriculars that cost hundreds of dollars per semester? Do you grow a garden and preserve/can foods and cook from scratch to save on your grocery bill? Do you routinely shop at yardsales and resale stores, or only things on sale or with coupons? Do you homeschool and use only materials you can find cheaply or for free or that you create yourself? Do you require them to pick only one extracurricular because you won't spend beyond a certain amount of money? There are a whole host of factors that play into this cost. But I haven't crunched any numbers, so I don't know exactly what those factors mean. I'm hoping that we don't end up spending that much per child...although it's highly possible. If we do spend $200k per child, that will be $600k with the 3 we have right now. :eek::eek::eek:

This one is Canadian, so wouldn't include a lot of medical expenses, and it came up with a figure of $182,000. It breaks it down, and really, none of those figures look all that out of whack. The clothing figures are maybe a bit high (about $89 a month, which I'm sure my parents didn't spend on me, and I was buying all my own clothes by age 16 when I got a job). There's no accounting for private schools, and the food costs top out at about $33 a week, which doesn't seem like they're eating super expensive foods. http://canadianfinanceblog.com/2009/10/13/how-much-does-raising-a-child-cost.htm
 
This one is Canadian, so wouldn't include a lot of medical expenses, and it came up with a figure of $182,000. It breaks it down, and really, none of those figures look all that out of whack. The clothing figures are maybe a bit high (about $89 a month, which I'm sure my parents didn't spend on me, and I was buying all my own clothes by age 16 when I got a job). There's no accounting for private schools, and the food costs top out at about $33 a week, which doesn't seem like they're eating super expensive foods. http://canadianfinanceblog.com/2009/10/13/how-much-does-raising-a-child-cost.htm

This definitely shows how varied it is between families. Our numbers for individual fields look a lot different...but we lived very frugally because we were both still in college when my first was born. And we continued that frugality with the next two kids. And expensive splurges are well-though-out.

But, you know, this does make me think about the expenses we have now...paying extra for Cub Scouts, the extra we've had to pay for medical and dental bills (and technically, you could start there with the births: all three were born at home with a midwife in attendance, with nothing covered by insurance)...the money I've spent on educational supplies to use at home (even though my oldest is in public school)...the pounds of fruit and vegetables that my kids go through in a week...it could all add up to very well being over $200k by the time they turn 18. But I know others who spend a LOT less through various means.
 
I am a senior at a private school, and even after three different scholarships and grants I will be at LEAST $50,000 in debt by the time I graduate. My parents and I have a very fair agreement of taking what was left after financial aid and splitting it down the middle. I have loans out to pay for my 50%. I know many people at my school (which is $45k/year) who's parents foot the entire bill out of pocket and I am always amazed. I am downright shocked that people's parents are willing to pay for their vet school. Not in a bad way, but I honestly never even thought about that as an option for some people.

After speaking with many vets, I know I will not live a life of luxury. Everyone knows that the MD route is much more lucrative, but I could never do that. I don't want to drive a Porche or have a summer home in Venice, I just want to have a job that I love and that gives me personal satisfaction. If you are someone who is not wholeheartedly accepting of the "labor of love" concept, perhaps veterinary medicine is not the career for you.

Bottom line: Veterinary medicine is something I am passionate about. I would probably still apply without a second thought if schools were $70k/year. To me, having a career you love while being in crippling debt is the American dream :D.
 
Again, it's not about what you think you deserve.

The comment was in reference to the starting salary being enough to live comfortably on. Which it easily is, even while making maximum loan payments.

You're not going to have a BMW in the driveway for a while, but did you really expect to be immediately wealthy after practicing medicine for 30 minutes? A degree isn't a golden ticket. You still have to start at the bottom, and do quality work over a substantial period of time to advance in pay.

Equally, there are many educational degrees at the doctorate and masters level which are associated with a low starting salary. And there are plumbers and electricians who never took a class after high school, but will out-earn you every year. Your argument is elitist, but it's based on your sense of entitlement instead of logic.

No. My point is based on empirical data, not a sense of entitlement.

There is always going to be some group of people who have significantly less than whatever line you want to draw. It just doesn't have much relevance in the discussion of whether or not something is a good or bad financial career choice.

Vets in the US average more than the the average household income in the US.
Fast food workers in the average more than the average household income in Grenada.
Farmers in Grenada average more than the average household income in Ethiopia.

When you consider the average, reasonably expected salaries of various professions and the time/cost/difficultly, vets really are one of the worst. It's not just that it takes eight years, it's also that it's highly selective.

I'm more than willing to agree with someone who says, 'I didn't become a vet to make a lot of money, I did it for other reasons, and I'm happy with it'. That's a perfectly valid, rational, perspective. But, to say, 'Hey - vets make plenty of money because their average starting salary is higher than some mostly unrelated statistic' makes me kind of shake my head a bit.
 
No. My point is based on empirical data, not a sense of entitlement.

There is always going to be some group of people who have significantly less than whatever line you want to draw. It just doesn't have much relevance in the discussion of whether or not something is a good or bad financial career choice.

Vets in the US average more than the the average household income in the US.
Fast food workers in the average more than the average household income in Grenada.
Farmers in Grenada average more than the average household income in Ethiopia.

When you consider the average, reasonably expected salaries of various professions and the time/cost/difficultly, vets really are one of the worst. It's not just that it takes eight years, it's also that it's highly selective.

I'm more than willing to agree with someone who says, 'I didn't become a vet to make a lot of money, I did it for other reasons, and I'm happy with it'. That's a perfectly valid, rational, perspective. But, to say, 'Hey - vets make plenty of money because their average starting salary is higher than some mostly unrelated statistic' makes me kind of shake my head a bit.

If your point is based on empirical data, why is it entirely absent of any empirical data?

You have some low-rent, reductionist argument about Grenada and Ethiopia and arbitrary lines being drawn. But in your rush to get to the sanctimony, you skipped the part where you actually understand the premise before commenting on it.

I originally wrote in this thread because I thought it was irresponsible to suggest that loan repayment made it impossible to have a decent standard of living, or raise kids, or buy a house.

The 'average household' statistic was used as evidence to illustrate that a large number of people live financially viable lives on that income.

Please read the previous two lines several times before your next comment.
 
Really? Are you like going to take it in the next two months and then not go if you get a good score? You just got in to vet school!


I'm not going to walk away from a vet school acceptance on the off chance that maybe I'll get into med school (a bird in the hand and all that). And I have zero clinical experience on the human side of things, so I probably couldn't realistically expect to get into a med school until I am 2 years into the vet program b/c you apply to med a year in advance just like with vet. So, it's not so much a realistic plan as it is a serious feeling of regret growing out of my fear of the insane debt I am about to take on at my age.

I'm having a hard time shutting down that little voice in my head that's telling me I'm about to make a very bad decision.

Can't decide whether I need career counseling or therapy! Lol.
 
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