Official 2011-2012 IM "How To Rank" Thread

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bigj626

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What are peoples opinions on these two residency programs? I am interested in going into cardiology.

I feel that university of chicago is a stronger program nationally and a more traditional rigorous training with possibly better education. There fellowship placement is strong but the institution is currently unstable.

I feel that northwestern is a strong program that is going to continue to improve and get even stronger because of its great wealth. Its fellowship placement is great especially regionally but is not as well respected nationally.

these are my opinions and I would like to hear yours
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bigj626 said:
What are peoples opinions on these two residency programs? I am interested in going into cardiology.

I feel that university of chicago is a stronger program nationally and a more traditional rigorous training with possibly better education. There fellowship placement is strong but the institution is currently unstable.

I feel that northwestern is a strong program that is going to continue to improve and get even stronger because of its great wealth. Its fellowship placement is great especially regionally but is not as well respected nationally.

these are my opinions and I would like to hear yours
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I agree UChicago is excellent on many levels -teaching, research, fellowship placement, reputation, and an excellent clinical environment where residents are highly respected and autonomy is the rule. There was a period of time (two years ago) where the hospital came under criticism for firing people and transferring a patient from its ER to a local hospital but in no way is there any current instability. The are building a new hospital, are making more money now than in decades, have a new Dean of the Hospital (was the former Chair of Medicine at WashU), and are enjoying growth in all facets (faculty, research, infrastructure etc). The PD is outstanding and will bat for you when it comes to fellowship. The residents are happy, have great balance of work and life, and they all get iPads. Interesting, at least four local community hospitals annually recruit UChicago senior residents to become Chief Residents.

Northwestern is certainly a new program that has done very well recently in fellowship placements. Also has a significant research program and people are very happy as well. The patient population is more affluent and facilities are gorgeous. I've heard residents are slightly less autonomous but this changing. The PD is jovial and very pro-resident.

You can't go wrong with either program - pick the one you liked best. Overall, however, my vote is for UChicago.
 
Hey guys and gals. Does anyone have any insight on how you would rank the following programs for those of us interested in general internal medicine ie primary care:

Yale PC, Hopkins Urban Health, Hopkins Bayview GIM track, Brown GIM track, NYU PC, Mt Sinai PC track, Emory PC track, Northwestern?

I will add that I will not be pursuing a fellowship immediately following residency training, so looking to go somewhere that will provide me with the best/solid clinical training that will allow me to be a competent outpatient physician. I forsee myself working with underserved populations. Really curious to hear about what some of you all may think of the programs with the newer PC/GIM tracks ie Hopkins' Osler Urban Health track and Mt Sinai's PC track. Thanks in advance everyone, looking forward to reading your responses!
 
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Hey guys,

Which one's better USC vs UCSF fresno and which programs are better?
 
Seriously? UCSF ranks above USC by more than 100 fold. That's just my opinion though, but I'm pretty sure others would agree with me too.
 
How would you compare them with baystate Tufts and UIC Urbana ?
 
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hopefulDMD said:
Seriously? UCSF ranks above USC by more than 100 fold. That's just my opinion though, but I'm pretty sure others would agree with me too.
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I thought we were talking about UCSF Fresno, which is a completely different ballgame than UCSF. The only things they have in common are those 4 letters and that they're located in California.

Fresno is an average community program that is far behind USC in academic strength.
 
Yes, it is about UCSF fresno, not UCSF unfortunately.
 
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gutonc said:
I thought we were talking about UCSF Fresno, which is a completely different ballgame than UCSF. The only things they have in common are those 4 letters and that they're located in California.

Fresno is an average community program that is far behind USC in academic strength.
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You forgot, also, that while fresno is no the most godforsaken place in the country, it's probably on the top 10 list!
 
I'm just curious how you guys would rank these programs. I know ultimately it will be up to personal feel.

Thank you!!
 
In terms of reputation ALONE:
WashU
UTSW
Mayo = OHSU
Georgetown

1) What do I win?
2) JDH, can these 4th years start a thread devoted to picking apart ROL's?
 
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Hazaya said:
I'm just curious how you guys would rank these programs. I know ultimately it will be up to personal feel.

Thank you!!
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If it were based on location:

OHSU>>>>>>Georgetown>>WashU/UTSW/Mayo
 
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Deferoxamine said:
In terms of reputation ALONE:
WashU
UTSW
Mayo = OHSU
Georgetown

1) What do I win?
2) JDH, can these 4th years start a thread devoted to picking apart ROL's?
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If we don't have one of those we should. And I generally like your reputation rankings. Though, I'm kind of in love with OHSU and I never went there! :smuggrin:
 
jdh71 said:
Ew. DC? I'd rather live in Roch.
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There are a lot of low cards in that hand. To be fair, though, I knew several people in college from Rochester, except that they affectionately referred to it as 'Asschester'.
 
Brachyury said:
There are a lot of low cards in that hand. To be fair, though, I knew several people in college from Rochester, except that they affectionately referred to it as 'Asschester'.
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:laugh:

It's pretty bleak there. And 1.5 hours to the cities . . . kind of sucks.

I bet the food's better in DC. You know the older I get the more of a food snob I become. I've already had my quota of applebees. You can't make me eat there again!!! :mad:
 
Deferoxamine said:
In terms of reputation ALONE:
WashU
UTSW
Mayo = OHSU
Georgetown
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Agree with this. Your Grandma might be more proud to say "Mayo" or "Georgetown" to her friends at the beauty salon, but to those who know what they are talking about - this is a fair assessment.
 
agree with this. Your grandma might be more proud to say "mayo" or "georgetown" to her friends at the beauty salon, but to those who know what they are talking about - this is a fair assessment.
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lol
 
my understanding is utsw is the best among the bunch...behind only the likes of mgh, duke, and ucsf
 
I actually agree with the rank by Deferoxamine strictly in terms of "reputation." However, is UTSW really someplace you'd want to train? Seems like a depressing place to spend 3 yrs. I remember on interview day, one of the residents said a bonus of the program was, "it's so big that if you hate someone you probably will never see them again." He didn't have many other "pluses."

WashU seems like a great place to train, and I was initially excited about the prospects of living in St Louis...but it's quite spread out and commuting would get tiresome IMHO. The planned construction on the major thoroughfare back in 2008 put the nail in the coffin for me.

I know Asschester gets a bad rap, but I bought a 1400 sq ft house on a corner lot for under 100K next to a lake with walking trails. My daily commute is 7 blocks to downtown Mayo, 7 min (10 min in traffic) to St Mary's. In addition to getting a house, I also got a dog, a new car, and have been able to afford some EXTREMELY expensive hobbies. These things aren't often mentioned in rank lists but they add up to a great quality of life.

It's unfortunate but none of the MS4s ever seem to be able to look outside the box. The box of course being a numerical rank on an arbitrary thread on a little-known website --> sdn. While people with hobbies and a life probably rarely contemplate such silly comparisons.
 
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It's unfortunate but nobody ever seems to be able to look outside the box. The box of course being a numerical rank on in arbitrary thread on sdn. While people with hobbies and a life probably rarely contemplate such silly comparisons.
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Yes. its true. nevertheless, the temptation of ranking and getting the best out of the (deal) is addictive!! :)

A wise man said: If you want to puzzle someone, give them choices :)
 
adagio said:
A wise man said: If you want to puzzle someone, give them choices :)
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But we are all obviously gifted at solving multiple choice questions...:p

...yet we seek out SDN (with all it's subjective wisdom) for help with these dilemmas:rolleyes:
 
I think, subliminally, by visiting SDN, people may be using a defense mechanism (a novel one) called (thinking-they-are-avoiding-re-inventing-the-wheel) :D

Its understandable: most of the crowd here are already accomplished fellows and attendings (such as yourself, I assume), and their insight is of great importance.

Its better to learn from others experiences. SDN may indeed offer valid experiences

yours is definitely construed as such :)

(this would take us into a paradox though, sort of (this sentence is false) logic :) (in your case specifically) :p
 
A man from Crete is saying: all men from Crete are liars. Is he telling the truth?
 
adagio said:
Its better to learn from others experiences. SDN may indeed offer valid experiences

yours is definitely construed as such :)

(this would take us into a paradox though, sort of (this sentence is false) logic :) (in your case specifically) :p
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adagio...you sir are a paradox. A quasar in the cosmos. The sphinx of SDN.:thumbup:

adagio said:
I think, subliminally, by visiting SDN, people may be using a defense mechanism (a novel one) called (thinking-they-are-avoiding-re-inventing-the-wheel) :D
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BTW...You should submit that novel defense mechanism to the DSM-VI:laugh:
 
BTW...You should add that novel defense mechanism to the DSM-VI
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man o man, dont I have lots of novel DMs that I have discovered (discovered? is that the right word? is mathematics discovered or invented? are we discovering personality disorders or merely creating them? :)) during my life so far (mostly applicable to scholars of our trade)
 
adagio said:
my favorite perfume is J del pozo's Quasar for what its worth
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I've been watching "How the universe works" all week on Netflix. I can now tell you with lots of nasal tones and authoritative gestures what a quasar actually is. <Pats self on back.>
 
hahaha... I am a collector of all TTC releases. I could tell you how a quasar relates to the demise of the Han Dynasty (buys self a beer)


(TTC is the teaching company. Extremely valuable resource of learning beyond academic settings)
 
BlackNDecker said:
It's unfortunate but none of the MS4s ever seem to be able to look outside the box. The box of course being a numerical rank on an arbitrary thread on a little-known website --> sdn. While people with hobbies and a life probably rarely contemplate such silly comparisons.
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I don't know man. Most people you talk to listen to what others have to say - their advisors in med school, family, friends, spouse, and even what we say on SDN, at the end of the day . . . we all pretty much ranked programs based on how WE liked them. I know I did. And the same thing happened for fellowship match. On both of my rank lists the last few years arguably the "biggest" academic name (which is usually much more difficult to ascertain at the fellowship level) were not at the tippy-top of my lists.

I remember being very impressed by the clinic - it's hard not to right? And Mayo wasn't at the bottom of my list or anything, but I went with my gut. I've been lucky to get my top picks for both residency and fellowship and have been happy with both. We do a lot of subconcious selection too and I think that's were gut comes in to play.
 
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purely based on name, reputation etc :love::love:
US applicant for categorical internal medicine, hoping to do fellowship
how would you rank:

robert wood johnson at new brunswick
vcu
albert einstein jacobi at bronx
 
Just wanted to get the current opinion of people on Northwestern vs. University of Chicago. I am either looking for a non-competitive fellowship or to be a hospitalist so fellowship match does not matter that much to me. I am still trying to get an idea about the similarities and differences. If anyone would choose University of Chicago over Northwestern or vice versa, why would you do so? Thanks!
 
bostampa2007 said:
purely based on name, reputation etc :love::love:
US applicant for categorical internal medicine, hoping to do fellowship
how would you rank:

robert wood johnson at new brunswick
vcu
albert einstein jacobi at bronx
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I'd agree with JDH. VCU, RWJ then Einstein

If you have questions about VCU I went there for med school way back when so send me a PM. I'm sure it's changed a bit but I can tell you what I know.
 
The national reputation of U.Chicago is stronger than Northwestern......even if you aint aiming for a competitive fellowship rank the stronger program first cause you never know at the end of your 3 years of residency you may change your mind and aim for a competitive fellowship or even your fellowship which is not a competitive one now may turn into a competitive one!
 
dyneinclathrine said:
The national reputation of U.Chicago is stronger than Northwestern......even if you aint aiming for a competitive fellowship rank the stronger program first cause you never know at the end of your 3 years of residency you may change your mind and aim for a competitive fellowship or even your fellowship which is not a competitive one now may turn into a competitive one!
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While I agree UChiacago has a stronger reputation when compared to NWern, I don't think it is the kind of difference that matters. Not really. You'll find fellowship placement, even into competitive fellowships, out of either program easily enough (provided you are a good resident).
 
From an academic point of view, I would say WashU = UTSW > OHSU = Mayo > Georgetown

From a where would I want to live Georgetown > UTSW > OHSU >>> St. Louis >>> Rochester
 
I apologize for incorrectly prefacing my opinion which does not take into account the amount of research money that each program flaunts around :)
 
obiwan said:
I apologize for incorrectly prefacing my opinion which does not take into account the amount of research money that each program flaunts around :)
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Precisely my point. Using the words "from an academic perspective" are merely another way to express personal opinion and as subjective as geographic desirability.
 
Long time lurker here -- I've interviewed at most of these places already, and obviously ranking has a lot to do with the feel of a program, but I wanted to know everyone's thoughts on ranking these programs. About me: Single (but would like to fix this), no real attachments anywhere, I have friends in most major cities, interested in either general internal medicine or pulm critical care, if I had to choose a fellowship now, I'd do GIM, ideally a Robert Wood Johnson or similar, in the long term I see myself in academics and doing clinical/public health disparities research. Also, interested in health policy and global health and global health policy. That said, I've listed some of my top choices with some short pros/cons, and they are currently in the order that I would rank. What does everyone think? Thanks in advance...

1. Yale (categorical): RWJ in house, established global health, new Global Health and Social Disparities Track (its going to be official soon I think?), friends in NYC, downside = living in new haven, although it wouldn't be like living in a small town in Kansas...I imagine there'll be like-minded people to hang with, with culture and possibilities to meet a future s/o.
2. U Chicago: Again, RWJ in house, international electives, friends in Chicago, small tight-knit feel among residents (plus), and opportunity to live in the South Loop in Chicago, which would be fun.
3. UCLA: RWJ, some international electives (I think), no friends in LA, LA is expensive.
4. UWashington: solid in many respects and strong in GIM, global health, etc, but huge program that might make me feel lost.
5. Northwestern: again, great city, fun residents, seemingly cush program but with solid fellowship matches...but maybe not the best for general internal medicine/public health research.
6. Michigan: very solid program in all respects, RWJ in house, impressive, but no friends/family in Michigan. The main reason I'm ranking it so low is that Ann Arbor was not appealing when I visited.
7. NYU: Solid general medicine program...but NYC is extremely expensive, and honestly, it would be nice to pay back loans and not have my salary go straight into living.
8. Colorado: great GIM, strong program, impressive, chill/smart residents who are into skiing, but I wasn't too impressed with Denver for some reason.
 
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Sounds like you've done the leg work for us, haha. Great list. Given your interests (policy wide and in pulm), Yale, UofC, Michigan and UW would be your best bets...UCLA also up there. Would caution that while UofC has fantastic disparities work, it's no longer a RWJ site - only Yale, Penn, UCLA and Mich at this point.

So, ranking-wise, I like your list. Would put Michigan above UCLA and NW (AA is a great town, and Mich is stronger for your interests than either of those programs)...would throw UW in at number four unless you're really put off by size. Otherwise agree with your rank - Yale and UofC are incredibly similar programs in feel - the former a bit better for policy/global, the latter better for location (although the South Side isn't the South Loop, haha). You'll be trained quite well at any of these places.

Diastolic007 said:
Long time lurker here -- I've interviewed at most of these places already, and obviously ranking has a lot to do with the feel of a program, but I wanted to know everyone's thoughts on ranking these programs. About me: Single (but would like to fix this), no real attachments anywhere, I have friends in most major cities, interested in either general internal medicine or pulm critical care, if I had to choose a fellowship now, I'd do GIM, ideally a Robert Wood Johnson or similar, in the long term I see myself in academics and doing clinical/public health disparities research. Also, interested in health policy and global health and global health policy. That said, I've listed some of my top choices with some short pros/cons, and they are currently in the order that I would rank. What does everyone think? Thanks in advance...

1. Yale (categorical): RWJ in house, established global health, new Global Health and Social Disparities Track (its going to be official soon I think?), friends in NYC, downside = living in new haven, although it wouldn't be like living in a small town in Kansas...I imagine there'll be like-minded people to hang with, with culture and possibilities to meet a future s/o.
2. U Chicago: Again, RWJ in house, international electives, friends in Chicago, small tight-knit feel among residents (plus), and opportunity to live in the South Loop in Chicago, which would be fun.
3. UCLA: RWJ, some international electives (I think), no friends in LA, LA is expensive.
4. UWashington: solid in many respects and strong in GIM, global health, etc, but huge program that might make me feel lost.
5. Northwestern: again, great city, fun residents, seemingly cush program but with solid fellowship matches...but maybe not the best for general internal medicine/public health research.
6. Michigan: very solid program in all respects, RWJ in house, impressive, but no friends/family in Michigan. The main reason I'm ranking it so low is that Ann Arbor was not appealing when I visited.
7. NYU: Solid general medicine program...but NYC is extremely expensive, and honestly, it would be nice to pay back loans and not have my salary go straight into living.
8. Colorado: great GIM, strong program, impressive, chill/smart residents who are into skiing, but I wasn't too impressed with Denver for some reason.
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gold&black2005 said:
Sounds like you've done the leg work for us, haha. Great list. Given your interests (policy wide and in pulm), Yale, UofC, Michigan and UW would be your best bets...UCLA also up there. Would caution that while UofC has fantastic disparities work, it's no longer a RWJ site - only Yale, Penn, UCLA and Mich at this point.

So, ranking-wise, I like your list. Would put Michigan above UCLA and NW (AA is a great town, and Mich is stronger for your interests than either of those programs)...would throw UW in at number four unless you're really put off by size. Otherwise agree with your rank - Yale and UofC are incredibly similar programs in feel - the former a bit better for policy/global, the latter better for location (although the South Side isn't the South Loop, haha). You'll be trained quite well at any of these places.
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I agree, if you're into public health and health disparities, Michigan is one of the best places to be. And Ann Arbor is a wonderful city, even the big city snobs who come there for undergrad grow to love it fast.

Given your interests, I'd do:
1) Yale
2) UChicago (doesn't have RWJ, but with this pedigree you shouldn't have a problem getting it somewhere else)
3) Michigan
4) U Washington (I overall like seattle waaay more than LA, but LA does RWJ, so the placement of these two is up to you)
5) UCLA
6) Northwestern (reason I would put it this low is the pt population at NW doesn't really give you much 'disparities' work, it's on the Mag Mile...and not as big a reputation as UC)
7) NYU
8) Colorado
 
thanks for the responses! I have to re-look through my notes, for some reason during interview day I got the impression that UChicago did have RWJ, but I checked online and I think I'm wrong! Also, its funny how weather on the day of the interview can really affect one's perception (snowstorm in Ann Arbor). Also, despite UChicago being on the south side, I learned that many of the residents live in the south loop and drive to work....why I mentioned the south loop as being a plus.
 
thoughts on cornell vs columbia vs mssm? interested in heme/onc and like different aspects about each program. columbia seems to get a mixed review but i was very impressed by the program. residents work hard but seem to get a lot out of their training. cornell and sinai are also great in that the residents seem really happy and still get a well-rounded and solid training. would be interested in what others thought.
 
barmouth said:
thoughts on cornell vs columbia vs mssm? interested in heme/onc and like different aspects about each program. columbia seems to get a mixed review but i was very impressed by the program. residents work hard but seem to get a lot out of their training. cornell and sinai are also great in that the residents seem really happy and still get a well-rounded and solid training. would be interested in what others thought.
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Look, Columbia is well . . . Columbia. But based on what I know about about the NYC programs, I've always thought Cornell in many ways is the most bang for your buck - great name, great training, great fellowship placement, great location in the city. The real drawbacks to any of those programs are essentially the same as they are all the "problems" associated with NYC.
 
medicinelover1 said:
Where does Stanford fit in amongst the elite programs? 1 vs 1A?
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I interviewed at Stanford. Basically every housestaff member is from either Harvard, Stanford, Hopkins or some other program in the UsNews top 10 which is why I automatically dismissed my chances after the interview day. I also got the feeling that unless you are definitely are set on subspecializing and doing some heavy research, then you aren't what they are looking for. I have the impression that most people wouldn't put Stanford in their top 10 list of IM programs but it belongs in that next set of programs. Whether that is secondary to carrying the Stanford name rather than the clinical training is something I couldn't get a good grasp of on my day in Palo Alto.
 
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