2019 USNWR Rankings

[Cyberdyne 101]

Yep, I'm citing USNWR, the near-consensus publicly-used ranking of graduate schools. Do you see any other SDN threads about medical school rankings for 2019? But let's look at Doximity too, the widely used app which ranks medical schools by their residency program strengths? Oh wow, Harvard is MILES ahead on that system too! Or let's look at peer-reviewed literature for which school has the most successful graduates? What's that? HMS is easily #1 there too and the authors talk about a ceiling effect for them? Let's look at the 2015 Shanghai ratings for best medical schools not in the country, but in the world? Oh, HMS is 100/100 and the next best school doesn't even top 80. Let's look at nobel laureates or surgeon genereals....HMS is way ahead there too? Hmmm, my claim that HMS is miles ahead of everyone is SOOOOO outlandish, isn't it?

It sucks that there are people out there who give up generous scholarships to top 10 schools due to this mindset.

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[toyland94]

It sucks that there are people out there who give up generous scholarships to top 10 schools due to this mindset.

Even full-tuition scholarships to top-10 schools are actually WORSE financially than the average HMS student (yet most of these generous scholarships are worse than full-tuition). COA for most top-20 schools is about 90k and tuition is 60k. Full tuition leaves you with ~120k debt. The average HMS student leaves with ~108k debt because their financial aid is so amazing.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Yo let’s get some PRN Xanax up in this thread. Geeeeez


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

For 99.7% of the pre-med population, this discussion is pointless and irrelevant. But there are a select few with a Harvard vs Penn (full scholarship) dilemma who should not be misinformed.

 

[efle]

Even full-tuition scholarships to top-10 schools are actually WORSE financially than the average HMS student (yet most of these generous scholarships are worse than full-tuition). COA for most top-20 schools is about 90k and tuition is 60k. Full tuition leaves you with ~120k debt. The average HMS student leaves with ~108k debt because their financial aid is so amazing.

Average debt doesn't factor in family contributions.

For example, if Harvard gives me 25k aid, asks for 25k family, and tells me to take 30k loans, it appears I paid 120k for med school.

If Penn gives me 50k full tuition merit scholarship and then I take 30k loans for living expenses, it also appears I paid 120k for med school.

But going to med school had very different costs in these two scenarios.

 

[TheVFibKid]

Even full-tuition scholarships to top-10 schools are actually WORSE financially than the average HMS student (yet most of these generous scholarships are worse than full-tuition). COA for most top-20 schools is about 90k and tuition is 60k. Full tuition leaves you with ~120k debt. The average HMS student leaves with ~108k debt because their financial aid is so amazing.

Plus, HMS allows you to say you went to Harvard, and even put it in your obituary. You can't put a price on that. Gotta be worth at least one sports car.

 

[toyland94]

Average debt doesn't factor in family contributions.

For example, if Harvard gives me 25k aid, asks for 25k family, and tells me to take 30k loans, it appears I paid 120k for med school.

If Penn gives me 50k full tuition merit scholarship and then I take 30k loans for living expenses, it also appears I paid 120k for med school.

But going to med school had very different costs in these two scenarios.

Except it's more often than not 30k living expenses at HMS vs. 30k living expenses at Penn. HMS waives family contributions for a large majority of their class...that's my entire point. It's their new middle-income initiative. And even for the select few where they don't waive (where the family can actually afford to pay a little), the increased debt is around ~10k a year. Is HMS 25-50k better than Penn? Who knows, but people aren't making the WRONG decision to go to HMS in that scenario. A lot of people have the misinformed idea that HMS is 300-400k debt vs a completely FREE Penn,WashU,UCLA. When in reality it's closer to ~100-120k debt at Harvard vs. ~120k debt at the other school

 

[OphthLover]

But didn't Stanford also lobby for the ranking methodology to be changed which resulted in them catapulting into top 3? I agree with you on the fact that Stanford has been a top school for longer, but I would argue if NYU had Stanford or another popular Ivy's name no one would bat an eye.

I'm trying to look at this objectively and I think many people pay too much attention to perceived prestige rather than quality. Again not saying these rankings are a measure of this quality, but it quite obvious from the long discussion on "Harvard vs the rest" that premeds are in love with big names/prestige, which makes sense considering how neurotic the community is. I doubt many pre-law students are arguing over how much above the rest Yale law is.

Trust me when Ivy medical schools such as Dartmouth or Brown would rise up to top 5 ranking within couple of years with questionable changes made to USNews ranking methodology, everyone will have a problem with that, including me.

 

[efle]

HMS waives family contributions for a large majority of their class...that's my entire point. It's their new middle-income initiative

At this point you're arguing that a need-based full scholarship and merit-based full scholarship end up similar. That's obviously true. It's only cases where the merit aid makes it significantly cheaper (for your family, not just you) that it becomes an issue.

There's a reason Penn and WashU together throw dozens of full rides around every year. Most admits come from well above median income backgrounds, and the need-only schools like Harvard and Hopkins and Stanford are often going to cost 100-150k more over the 4 years.

Edit: And to reiterate in case it's not already clear my opinion, turning down that scholarship so you can wear a Harvard license plate frame is insanity.

 

[toyland94]

At this point you're arguing that a need-based full scholarship and merit-based full scholarship end up similar. That's obviously true. It's only cases where the merit aid makes it significantly cheaper (for your family, not just you) that it becomes an issue.

There's a reason Penn and WashU together throw dozens of full rides around every year. Most admits come from well above median income backgrounds, and the need-only schools like Harvard and Hopkins and Stanford are often going to cost 100-150k more over the 4 years.

Almost a quarter of HMS students have family incomes < 50k. They'll be graduating with ~100k debt. More than half of HMS students are going to be paying 100-150k over 4 years (from the middle income initiative) vs. covering the difference between 90k COA and 60k full-tuition scholarship (30k*4), is going to end up pretty similar for most people. So these "thinking HMS is sooo much better than Penn is making neurotic/misinformed premeds make a 300k/400k vs FREE mistake" are fake news.

 

[efle]

Most HMS students are going to be paying 100-150k over 4 years vs. covering the difference between 90k COA and 60k full-tuition scholarship (30k*4), is going to end up pretty similar for most people. So these "thinking HMS is sooo much better than Penn is making neurotic/misinformed premeds make a 300k/400k vs FREE mistake" are fake news.

Again dude, you are missing the fact that the MSAR numbers don't include family contributions. They borrow ~110k at Harvard on average. Their families are often contributing as much or more. For someone with wealthy parents (very common in top med school classes) it frequently does become 300k (total between you + your family) vs 100k (living expenses only). In a case like the Geffen scholarship at UCLA, the living is even included, and it becomes more like hundreds of thousands vs free. I personally know people that faced this decision vs Harvard and vs Hopkins.

Have you actually been through the financial aid process yourself yet ?? This should make sense

 

[DubbiDoctor]

Again dude, you are missing the fact that the MSAR numbers don't include family contributions. They borrow ~110k at Harvard on average. Their families are often contributing as much or more. For someone with wealthy parents (very common in top med school classes) it frequently does become 300k (total between you + your family) vs 100k (living expenses only). In a case like the Geffen scholarship at UCLA, the living is even included, and it becomes more like hundreds of thousands vs free. I personally know people that faced this decision vs Harvard and vs Hopkins.

Have you actually been through the financial aid process yourself yet ?? This should make sense

Considering the guy you're arguing with has only 15 total posts, and just won't let up, I think you're getting trolled.

 

[toyland94]

Again dude, you are missing the fact that the MSAR numbers don't include family contributions. They borrow ~110k at Harvard on average. Their families are often contributing as much or more. For someone with wealthy parents (very common in top med school classes) it frequently does become 300k (total between you + your family) vs 100k (living expenses only). In a case like the Geffen scholarship at UCLA, the living is even included, and it becomes more like hundreds of thousands vs free. I personally know people that faced this decision vs Harvard and vs Hopkins.

Have you actually been through the financial aid process yourself yet ?? This should make sense

Almost a quarter of HMS students come from family incomes <50k, and thus will have debt of ~100k over 4 years. Over 50% of HMS students benefit from the middle income initiative and have debt between 100k-150k over 4 years. So the majority of students fall in line with my numbers, not yours. But sure, if there is a super wealthy kid who is choosing between a full-tuition at Penn (120k debt) vs. 300k debt at HMS, I'd recommend Penn. But you're also operating under the assumption that the parents never pay anything. But if we're going to pretend HMS is full of super super rich parents, they'll probably be covering some, most likely all, tuition and your argument of 300k debt falls flat again

 

[efle]

Almost a quarter of HMS students come from family incomes <50k, and thus will have debt of ~100k over 4 years. Over 50% of HMS students benefit from the middle income initiative and have debt between 100k-150k over 4 years. So the majority of students fall in line with my numbers, not yours. But sure, if there is a super wealthy kid who is choosing between a full-tuition at Penn (120k) vs. 300k debt at HMS, I'd recommend Penn. But you're also operating under the assumption that the parents never pay anything. But if we're going to pretend HMS is full of super super rich parents, they'll probably be covering tuition as well

Dude. Their definition to begin getting "middle income" PC reductions is 150k/year, and even then only about half get any reduction. Most of that half are being asked for PC, it's just a reduced PC. Even then almost half of students are not getting any reduced PC quote at all and, since we know are coming from 150k+ families, are likely being asked for PCs of the majority of tuition per year.

HMS and schools like it are packed with wealthy families and facing the very high near-sticker prices is not rare in the slightest. Many students at second look weekends next month are going to be facing six figure price differences in their decisions.

 

[efle]

To add a datapoint from the newly updated US News, about 1 in 3 HMS students is offered zero grant or scholarship support. For those people it is only loans+PC. Going to Penn or WashU on scholarship would be a savings to their family of about a quarter million dollars. This isn't a tiny fake-news group that is asked to pay sticker at need-only schools. It happens a lot.

 

[toyland94]

Dude. Their definition to begin getting "middle income" PC reductions is 150k/year, and even then only about half get any reduction. Most of that half are being asked for PC, it's just a reduced PC. Even then almost half of students are not getting any reduced PC quote at all and, since we know are coming from 150k+ families, are likely being asked for PCs of the majority of tuition per year.

HMS and schools like it are packed with wealthy families and facing the very high near-sticker prices is not rare in the slightest. Many students at second look weekends next month are going to be facing six figure price differences in their decisions.

I agree some will be facing six figure differences. But I think it's much less than you think. I currently have the option of going to Hopkins (100k debt), Penn (120k debt), and UCLA (free). What would you recommend? I have no idea what kind of medicine/career I want.

 

[Stagg737]

I'm not about to read through 7 pages of USNWR crap, so Idk if this has already been said but it can't be repeated enough:

Program Directors (aka the people who decide whether they let you into their residency program), give exactly zeros f***s about what a school's rank in the USNWR or Doximity or any other BS ranking system is. THEY. DON'T. CARE.

Yes, some schools names will carry more weight than others, but these are the same programs year in and year out. They carry that weight because they have a long history of churning out consistently solid classes every year. Changes in rank in these lists don't matter to program directors, or really anyone else in the real world other than the deans and administration of those schools who get paid bonuses for being able to market their school's rank. No one who is deciding the fate of medical students is going to care that NYU jumped up to #3 while Yale dropped out of the top ten, Yale is still going to be seen as a stronger program. If you don't think it's true, go ask in the residency forums and see how fast these rankings get dismissed.

 

[efle]

I agree some will be facing six figure differences. But I think it's much less than you think. I currently have the option of going to Hopkins (120k debt), Penn (120k debt), and UCLA (free). What would you recommend? I have no idea what kind of medicine/career I want.

Well, I can rave about Hopkins and I can tell you I have a good friend here that regrets turning down Geffen. If you want to talk to either of us about anything shoot me a PM

 

[OphthLover]

I'm not about to read through 7 pages of USNWR crap, so Idk if this has already been said but it can't be repeated enough:

Program Directors (aka the people who decide whether they let you into their residency program), give exactly zeros f***s about what a school's rank in the USNWR or Doximity or any other BS ranking system is. THEY. DON'T. CARE.

Yes, some schools names will carry more weight than others, but these are the same programs year in and year out. They carry that weight because they have a long history of churning out consistently solid classes every year. Changes in rank in these lists don't matter to program directors, or really anyone else in the real world other than the deans and administration of those schools who get paid bonuses for being able to market their school's rank. No one who is deciding the fate of medical students is going to care that NYU jumped up to #3 while Yale dropped out of the top ten, Yale is still going to be seen as a stronger program. If you don't think it's true, go ask in the residency forums and see how fast these rankings get dismissed.

I disagree, and I disagree with what seems to be the widespread sentiment here that as long as you are from top 25, unless you are from HMS, your home school doesn’t mean much.

I would go as far as to say that the level of repsect you get and “awe” you inspire when you interact with people in the medical field including attendings can change drastically depending on whether you are from top 10 vs top 25. A compliment I have heard most frequently throughout my medical school from attending doctors was that they didn’t even try to apply to my medical school when they were applying because they knew how selective my school was (and still is).

Had I not come from top 5 medical school, I certainly would not have had a very succesful match cycle with what would be considered subpar Step scores and clerkship grades if I were from a lower ranked school. Refer to Successful Match or other books that talk about what PD’s value most when choosing candidates during match. Many of competitive specialties I would say still have the reputation of a student’s medical school as one of the top 5 most sought after criteria.

 

[efle]

I disagree, and I disagree with what seems to be the widespread sentiment here that as long as you are from top 25, unless you are from HMS, your home school doesn’t mean much.

I would go as far as to say that the level of repsect you get and “awe” you inspire when you interact with people in the medical field including attendings can change drastically depending on whether you are from top 10 vs top 25. A compliment I have heard most frequently throughout my medical school from attending doctors was that they didn’t even try to apply to my medical school when they were applying because they knew how selective my school was (and still is).

Had I not come from top 5 medical school, I certainly would not have had a very succesful match cycle with what would be considered subpar Step scores and clerkship grades had I come from a lower-tier medical school. Refer to Successful Match or other books that talk about what PD’s value most when choosing candidates during match. Many of competitive specialties I would say still have the reputation of a student’s medical school as one of the top 5 most sought after criteria.

This is one point I think people miss that can be a big one. Top schools match insanely well with step scores that aren't that high.

As an example, Hopkins consistently has step1 averages of 235-238, so like ~60th percentile. That's about the same as places like Boston U and Case Western. But then they have these matches (1, 2). The name and resources matter more than SDN likes to say, much like with elite colleges feeding competitive med schools.

 

[Danny L]

This is one point I think people miss that can be a big one. Top schools match insanely well with step scores that aren't that high.

As an example, Hopkins consistently has step1 averages of 235-238, so like ~60th percentile. That's about the same as places like Boston U and Case Western. But then they have these matches (1, 2). The name and resources matter more than SDN likes to say, much like with elite colleges feeding competitive med schools.

Maybe I'm not familiar with typical residency matchings, but while there are a lot of big names on there it doesn't look like the list is overwhelmingly filled with top tier specialties

 

[efle]

Maybe I'm not familiar with typical residency matchings, but while there are a lot of big names on there it doesn't look like the list is overwhelmingly filled with top tier specialties

Right, because for a lot of people that are competitive, their choice is in something like IM or pediatrics that isn't overall hard to match. It's where people match, not just whether a lot are matching things like derm and urology etc

 

[OphthLover]

Maybe I'm not familiar with typical residency matchings, but while there are a lot of big names on there it doesn't look like the list is overwhelmingly filled with top tier specialties

Sending that many students to exceptionally competiitve fields like ophtho, ortho, rad onc is significant, and those who matched at those competitive specialties also matched into highly regarded residency programs.

Besides, many people there who choose to go into primary care specialties such as IM, peds, etc do so by choice not necessarily becuase they have poor credentials. Look at NYMC or Tufts for example. The number of students matching into diagnostic radiology is out of proportion to their class sizes becuase thier leaderships actively encourage students to pursue the specialty not because people who enter the schools are great test takers and have stellar Step scores.

 

[Stagg737]

I disagree, and I disagree with what seems to be the widespread sentiment here that as long as you are from top 25, unless you are from HMS, your home school doesn’t mean much.

I would go as far as to say that the level of repsect you get and “awe” you inspire when you interact with people in the medical field including attendings can change drastically depending on whether you are from top 10 vs top 25. A compliment I have heard most frequently throughout my medical school from attending doctors was that they didn’t even try to apply to my medical school when they were applying because they knew how selective my school was (and still is).

Had I not come from top 5 medical school, I certainly would not have had a very succesful match cycle with what would be considered subpar Step scores and clerkship grades if I were from a lower ranked school. Refer to Successful Match or other books that talk about what PD’s value most when choosing candidates during match. Many of competitive specialties I would say still have the reputation of a student’s medical school as one of the top 5 most sought after criteria.

You missed my point. I didn't say that prestige or "rankings" don't matter. I'm saying that USNWR and doximity rankings don't matter and that the "elite" programs that inspire awe don't change from year to year based on those rankings. Yale is still going to have elite name recognition even though it dropped out of the top 10, much more than Mayo's med school who is now ranked #6 according to USNWR. Those top programs that have the name recognition don't typically change regardless of what USNWR says their rank is. So while NYU and Mayo can now brag about their rank, their name still isn't going to carry the same weight as Yale or Penn or WashU (at least not any time in the near future).

Again, if you don't believe it, go ask the program directors and attendings what they think about the USNWR or Doximity rankings and see how hard they laugh.

 

[Danny L]

Right, because for a lot of people that are competitive, their choice is in something like IM or pediatrics that isn't overall hard to match. It's where people match, not just whether a lot are matching things like derm and urology etc

Sending that many students to exceptionally competiitve fields like ophtho, ortho, rad onc is significant, and those who matched at those competitive specialties also matched into highly regarded residency programs.

Besides, many people there who choose to go into primary care specialties such as IM, peds, etc do so by choice not necessarily becuase they have poor credentials. Look at NYMC or Tufts for example. The number of students matching into diagnostic radiology is out of proportion to their class sizes becuase thier leaderships actively encourage students to pursue the specialty not because people who enter the schools are great test takers and have stellar Step scores.

Sure but if your concern is to get into a certain specialty it doesn't look like your school choice is super significant right?

And really how much does the name of your residency matter for private practice? I can see the merits of paying the premium (over your state school) of a (t5/10/etc) private school if you want to go academic but I haven't really seen it for private practice

 

[efle]

Sure but if your concern is to get into a certain specialty it doesn't look like your school choice is super significant right?

And really how much does the name of your residency matter for private practice? I can see the merits of paying the premium (over your state school) of a (t5/10/etc) private school if you want to go academic but I haven't really seen it for private practice

It's significant. Put another way, imagine all the people matching peds at Chop, Bostons, Cincy, and Hopkins and all the IM people matching Hopkins, MGH, UCSF and BWH had all gone into competitive specialties.

It is true that if your dream is to be private practice derm group in the suburbs somewhere, your patients aren't going to be asking where you trained

 

[ObjectiveBoba]

There is precedent for this kind of thing. You know good old U Chicago undergrad, which has consistently been ranked among HYPSM for years, has a single digit admit rate and top 1% SAT scores?

Yeah...in 2002, they were ranked #39 and had a 42% admit rate.

If a school figures out the right things to focus on, they can jump up and stay there, and while it takes 10+ years everyone eventually just accepts that they're in the elite a.f. crowd for reals.

I love you Efle, but this isn't true.

Back in 2002, UChicago was ranked 9th. All the way back in '85, they were ranked 5th, and has been hovering in the early teens/late single digits for a while until they decided to care about the undergraduate program again.

I don't think there has been any school that jumped 30 places beginning within the top 50 of any discipline, particularly one as established as medicine, although props to NYU for doing so -- particularly in the time span of 10 years.

Anyway, didn't mean to derail the discussion on HMS being leagues ahead of every other school.

 

[mydogmolly]

Back in 2002, UChicago was ranked 9th. All the way back in '85, they were ranked 5th, and has been hovering in the early teens/late single digits for a while until they decided to care about the undergraduate program again.

Yea UChi has been churning out Nobel laureates like hot cakes since the 1970s. Pretty sure it's always been a top school.

 

[bonedoc5576]

I don't think there has been any school that jumped 30 places beginning within the top 50 of any discipline, particularly one as established as medicine, although props to NYU for doing so -- particularly in the time span of 10 years.

Actually there is an example: USC (Southern California) was unranked until 1996. In part because of a desirable location, large contributions from wealthy donors, and wise allocations of those investments, USC has enhanced its infrastructure, attracted stronger faculty, recruited stronger students, and now is tied with Berkeley and UCLA. Anyone familiar with the institution will acknowledge that its recognition is well-deserved

NYU med school has done the same thing: erected new buildings, poached faculty, and attracted top students with scholarships. The only difference between NYU med and USC is that NYU med was a strong program before its rise.

Anyone who thinks Yale med is a clearly stronger program than NYU med is choosing to ignore the facts; but no one will deny that Yale has the flashier name.

Wake up people...Don't pay for a name.

 

[scienceguy95]

I disagree, and I disagree with what seems to be the widespread sentiment here that as long as you are from top 25, unless you are from HMS, your home school doesn’t mean much.

I would go as far as to say that the level of repsect you get and “awe” you inspire when you interact with people in the medical field including attendings can change drastically depending on whether you are from top 10 vs top 25. A compliment I have heard most frequently throughout my medical school from attending doctors was that they didn’t even try to apply to my medical school when they were applying because they knew how selective my school was (and still is).

Had I not come from top 5 medical school, I certainly would not have had a very succesful match cycle with what would be considered subpar Step scores and clerkship grades if I were from a lower ranked school. Refer to Successful Match or other books that talk about what PD’s value most when choosing candidates during match. Many of competitive specialties I would say still have the reputation of a student’s medical school as one of the top 5 most sought after criteria.

This is absurd. By your logic people will be more impressed if you went to NYU than if you went to Yale or Columbia, which is a joke. I’d pick Yale or Columbia any day of the week.

 

[scienceguy95]

Actually there is an example: USC (Southern California) was unranked until 1996. In part because of a desirable location, large contributions from wealthy donors, and wise allocations of those investments, USC has enhanced its infrastructure, attracted stronger faculty, recruited stronger students, and now is tied with Berkeley and UCLA. Anyone familiar with the institution will acknowledge that its recognition is well-deserved

NYU med school has done the same thing: erected new buildings, poached faculty, and attracted top students with scholarships. The only difference between NYU med and USC is that NYU med was a strong program before its rise.

Anyone who thinks Yale med is a clearly stronger program than NYU med is choosing to ignore the facts; but no one will deny that Yale has the flashier name.

Wake up people...Don't pay for a name.

More like NYU found out how to ascend the rankings artificially without actually making substantial improvements that merit a spot in the top 5. If a ranking system has to reduce the weight of residency director scores for your school to thrive, that’s a problem. Meanwhile they just increased the average MCAT to WashU levels and average GPA to Harvard levels. What a joke.

 

[MarineMDHopeful]

This is absurd. By your logic people will be more impressed if you went to NYU than if you went to Yale or Columbia, which is a joke. I’d pick Yale or Columbia any day of the week.

Everyone is different. I wouldn't consider JHU, HMS, or UPENN at all. Not into the hyper competitive environments....hence me choosing Mayo. But Yale would be a solid competitor for me for the same reasons Mayo appeals to me. But to each their own.

 

[scienceguy95]

Everyone is different. I wouldn't consider JHU, HMS, or UPENN at all. Not into the hyper competitive environments....hence me choosing Mayo. But Yale would be a solid competitor for me for the same reasons Mayo appeals to me. But to each their own.

My priorities are quite similar to yours, Marine. The post you quoted from me was in response to the guy who was saying that a top 5 med school gives you some sort of halo effect by definition, which is absolutely absurd in my opinion. No one who matters (that is, program directors) will view Yale, Mayo, Columbia, or even Michigan less than NYU because they aren't in this arbitrary "top 5" designation. I would go as far as to say that these schools have a better reputation than NYU even, which is reflective in their peer-assessment scores.

At the end of the day, though, people should pick the school that is the best fit for them. I don't think I would pick Penn over Yale even if Penn offered me a full scholarship. I am simply not a fan of competing with your classmates in any capacity.

 

[bananafish94]

I think a lot of you are taking these rankings...way, way too seriously.

 

[DocAdams]

I would go as far as to say that the level of repsect you get and “awe” you inspire when you interact with people in the medical field including attendings can change drastically depending on whether you are from top 10 vs top 25.

Take a look through the scouter.. their respect/awe levels ARE OVER 9000!!!

 

[bonedoc5576]

More like NYU found out how to ascend the rankings artificially without actually making substantial improvements that merit a spot in the top 5. If a ranking system has to reduce the weight of residency director scores for your school to thrive, that’s a problem. Meanwhile they just increased the average MCAT to WashU levels and average GPA to Harvard levels. What a joke.

Opening a new 830,000 square foot clinical facility (Kimmel Pavilion), a new children's hospital (Hassenfeld), a new 22,000 square foot emergency center (Perleman), a new 365,000 square foot research facility, AND completely renovating Tisch hospital within the past four years would seem to amount to improvement of some substance, wouldn't you say?

And please explain why the matriculation of high achieving students diminishes the prestige of the medical school.

 

[scienceguy95]

Opening a new 830,000 square foot clinical facility (Kimmel Pavilion), a new children's hospital (Hassenfeld), a new 22,000 square foot emergency center (Perleman), a new 365,000 square foot research facility, AND completely renovating Tisch hospital within the past four years would seem to amount to improvement of some substance, wouldn't you say?

And please explain why the matriculation of high achieving students diminishes the prestige of the medical school.

Oh dear lord. NYU is a good school, okay? I'm not saying it's a bad school. But none of what you mentioned is actually factored into the new rankings. Breaking down the methodology: 40% research funds (NIH and non-NIH), 30% peer-assessment (peer schools and residency directors), 20% selectivity (MCAT, GPA, and acceptance rate), and 10% faculty resources (seems to be student/faculty ratio).

The only reason NYU made a big jump in the rankings is because they cranked up their median stats to sky-high levels and because of the huge influx of money they have received in the past few years, combined with US News putting more weight on non-NIH funds. That's it. Their peer-assessment scores are still lower than most of their peers in the top 10 (and Columbia/Yale/Michigan). It seems NYU's trend toward being stat-hungry is because they know it will boost their rankings. NYU cares deeply about their rankings--this is a known fact. Do you think Yale or Columbia would have any difficulty increasing their median stats to NYU levels if they so desired? That's 20% of the ranking criteria!

I mention all of this not to imply that NYU is a subpar school. Obviously it's an excellent school like all of its peers in the top 25. But this notion that somehow they are a better school than Yale, Columbia, or Michigan because of these new rankings is patently absurd.

 

[Dartmouth1230]

For all the past, current and future NYU SoM students, let's stop trying to justify how great a school NYU SoM is. At the very least, we should only talk to students of our caliber anyway (HMS, Hopkins and Stanford).

Y'all need to chill. As a senior resident now, rankings really don't matter and a top student at NYU will have the same
opportunities as a top student anywhere. This can also be said of the majority of top 30 med schools. When you guys apply for residency, your perspective will change.

 

[Psai]

Oh dear lord. NYU is a good school, okay? I'm not saying it's a bad school. But none of what you mentioned is actually factored into the new rankings. Breaking down the methodology: 40% research funds (NIH and non-NIH), 30% peer-assessment (peer schools and residency directors), 20% selectivity (MCAT, GPA, and acceptance rate), and 10% faculty resources (seems to be student/faculty ratio).

The only reason NYU made a big jump in the rankings is because they cranked up their median stats to sky-high levels and because of the huge influx of money they have received in the past few years, combined with US News putting more weight on non-NIH funds. That's it. Their peer-assessment scores are still lower than most of their peers in the top 10 (and Columbia/Yale/Michigan). It seems NYU's trend toward being stat-hungry is because they know it will boost their rankings. NYU cares deeply about their rankings--this is a known fact. Do you think Yale or Columbia would have any difficulty increasing their median stats to NYU levels if they so desired? That's 20% of the ranking criteria!

I mention all of this not to imply that NYU is a subpar school. Obviously it's an excellent school like all of its peers in the top 25. But this notion that somehow they are a better school than Yale, Columbia, or Michigan because of these new rankings is patently absurd.

If it's so easy, why doesn't everyone do it?

 

[efle]

I love you Efle, but this isn't true.

Back in 2002, UChicago was ranked 9th. All the way back in '85, they were ranked 5th, and has been hovering in the early teens/late single digits for a while until they decided to care about the undergraduate program again.

I don't think there has been any school that jumped 30 places beginning within the top 50 of any discipline, particularly one as established as medicine, although props to NYU for doing so -- particularly in the time span of 10 years.

Anyway, didn't mean to derail the discussion on HMS being leagues ahead of every other school.

Good catch, it looks like the ranking I posted was actually selectivity rank only (combination of admit rate, SAT, and % top decile in high school) and not overall rank. I think the point still stands about certain schools becoming much more elite/selective in a short time span, especially since the 42% --> 8% admit rate drop is accurate as best I can tell.

 

[OphthLover]

For all the past, current and future NYU SoM students, let's stop trying to justify how great a school NYU SoM is. At the very least, we should only talk to students of our caliber anyway (HMS, Hopkins and Stanford).

Y'all need to chill. As a senior resident now, rankings really don't matter and a top student at NYU will have the same
opportunities as a top student anywhere. This can also be said of the majority of top 30 med schools. When you guys apply for residency, your perspective will change.

This is not so convincing when such statement is made by someone from Dartmouth medical school. The common sentiment that the top 25 schools except for HMS are equals and wouldn’t provide one with differing competitive edge during residency matching is wrong. Whether you come from traditional top 10 vs top 25 would make a great difference. Why people care so much about the ranking is that when you maintain that top 5 position for long enough, despite the fact that it is achieved through questionable changes made to ranking methodology, people will one day perceive NYU as a school that has traditionally been a top-tier school, and this, will make **** load of difference during resident matching.

 

[OphthLover]

If it's so easy, why doesn't everyone do it?

Because medicine traditionally has been a field that chooses its “apprentices” based on other admirable qualiteis besides intelligence and dilligence (i.e. stats). More schools like NYU exploiting/lobbying ranking system like that spring up in the future, and sooner than later you will find all the top schools doing the same to not be left out, and medical school admission process will become much more like that of law school, very heavily stat dependent.

 

[scienceguy95]

If it's so easy, why doesn't everyone do it?

It would be easy for other top schools like Yale and Columbia to boost the average stats of their incoming students. Why don't they do it? Maybe because they don't think that's a responsible way to change your admissions criteria? Let's be honest. If selectivity only accounted for 1-5% of these rankings, there's no way NYU's average stats would have skyrocketed. Meanwhile, schools like HMS, UCSF, Columbia, and Yale don't bother trying to achieve the absolute highest MCAT scores in the country (they are already really high) for an edge in the rankings.

This is not so convincing when such statement is made by someone from Dartmouth medical school. The common sentiment that the top 25 schools except for HMS are equals and wouldn’t provide one with differing competitive edge during residency matching is wrong. Whether you come from traditional top 10 vs top 25 would make a great difference. Why people care so much about the ranking is that when you maintain that top 5 position for long enough, despite the fact that it is achieved through questionable changes made to ranking methodology, people will one day perceive NYU as a school that has traditionally been a top-tier school, and this, will make **** load of difference during resident matching.

So let me get this straight. You are saying that UCLA will now have a competitive edge over Yale/Columbia/Michigan because one is in the top 10 and others are only in the top 25?

 

[Lucca]

Imo student bodies of medical schools should be allowed to vote on whether or not to boycott USNWR every year

 

[OphthLover]

It would be easy for other top schools like Yale and Columbia to boost the average stats of their incoming students. Why don't they do it? Maybe because they don't think that's a responsible way to change your admissions criteria? Let's be honest. If selectivity only accounted for 1-5% of these rankings, there's no way NYU's average stats would have skyrocketed. Meanwhile, schools like HMS, UCSF, Columbia, and Yale don't bother trying to achieve the absolute highest MCAT scores in the country (they are already really high) for an edge in the rankings.


So let me get this straight. You are saying that UCLA will now have a competitive edge over Yale/Columbia/Michigan because one is in the top 10 and others are only in the top 25?

You didn’t read my post carefully. Right now it wouldn’t, obviously, because people who make residency matching decisions rely on their years of experiences in repective fields when judging a prestige or reputation of a medical school program. But if NYU holds its ground for long enough, despite the fact that it has jumped to that position by exploiting/lobbying the ranking system, it wil definitely have a competitive edge over other schools you mentioned eventually.

 

[Disciple of Sattar]

This is not so convincing when such statement is made by someone from Dartmouth medical school. The common sentiment that the top 25 schools except for HMS are equals and wouldn’t provide one with differing competitive edge during residency matching is wrong. Whether you come from traditional top 10 vs top 25 would make a great difference. Why people care so much about the ranking is that when you maintain that top 5 position for long enough, despite the fact that it is achieved through questionable changes made to ranking methodology, people will one day perceive NYU as a school that has traditionally been a top-tier school, and this, will make **** load of difference during resident matching.

This is not so convincing when such statement is made by someone from NYU medical school.

 

[OphthLover]

Imo student bodies of medical schools should be allowed to vote on whether or not to boycott USNWR every year

Then I believe students going to schools outside top 25 will vote to boycott USNMR every year.

 

[OphthLover]

This is not so convincing when such statement is made by someone from NYU medical school.

This is not so convincing because I am not someone from NYU medical school.

 

[mcdocky]

USNWR Rankings and NYU have become the new URM thread

 

[thenucleusaccumbens]

Because medicine traditionally has been a field that chooses its “apprentices” based on other admirable qualiteis besides intelligence and dilligence (i.e. stats). More schools like NYU exploiting/lobbying ranking system like that spring up in the future, and sooner than later you will find all the top schools doing the same to not be left out, and medical school admission process will become much more like that of law school, very heavily stat dependent.

Oh dear lord. NYU is a good school, okay? I'm not saying it's a bad school. But none of what you mentioned is actually factored into the new rankings. Breaking down the methodology: 40% research funds (NIH and non-NIH), 30% peer-assessment (peer schools and residency directors), 20% selectivity (MCAT, GPA, and acceptance rate), and 10% faculty resources (seems to be student/faculty ratio).

The only reason NYU made a big jump in the rankings is because they cranked up their median stats to sky-high levels and because of the huge influx of money they have received in the past few years, combined with US News putting more weight on non-NIH funds. That's it. Their peer-assessment scores are still lower than most of their peers in the top 10 (and Columbia/Yale/Michigan). It seems NYU's trend toward being stat-hungry is because they know it will boost their rankings. NYU cares deeply about their rankings--this is a known fact. Do you think Yale or Columbia would have any difficulty increasing their median stats to NYU levels if they so desired? That's 20% of the ranking criteria!

I mention all of this not to imply that NYU is a subpar school. Obviously it's an excellent school like all of its peers in the top 25. But this notion that somehow they are a better school than Yale, Columbia, or Michigan because of these new rankings is patently absurd.

But these schools all have around the same avg stats.. How can you say NYU is stat-hungry when Columbia, NYU and Yale students have about the same GPA/MCAT based on what is currently listed on their websites. I just don't think NYU is any more "stat hungry" than the other top schools. They all care about GPA/MCAT

 

[OphthLover]

But these schools all have around the same avg stats.. How can you say NYU is stat-hungry when Columbia, NYU and Yale students have about the same GPA/MCAT based on what is currently listed on their websites. I just don't think NYU is any more "stat hungry" than the other top schools. They all care about GPA/MCAT

Except that NYU has not been a “top school.”