A Lighthouse, A Man, A City...A BioShock WW Game

[vetschoolsletmeinplease]

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Considering the stunt she pulled when she village in the last game do you think she would have incentive to be more active this game if she randed wolf? Because that's something I'm starting to worry about

i think this is interesting and def. something to keep in mind. i have her currently in a very weak village read for participation

Looks like in response to alissa vote that put katas in the lead

i may be interpreting this incorrectly, but wasn't that a self prez?

I have to reevaluate some things based on April's flip in particular since I had a wolfy lean on her, so I'm starting the day off with a Zenge ISO. Zenge has said quite a few things that I've agreed with, but some things have pinged me as well, and ISOing didn't clear up my read of him as much as I hoped it would (despite the number of quotes that I pulled). I'm leaning toward the wolfy side of neutral at this point, based partially on some of his analyses and partially on some tonal things I noticed, and I'm curious to see what his posts are like today. This post is huge, and I'm sorry for that, but I tried to break it up with spoilers.

Spoiler: Voting justifications

I wasn't at all surprised by this vote. It's very possible that a wolf jumped on the AM salt vote train and I'm not discounting that possibility, but there was so much salt directed at her after Goats that I don't want to read into this vote too much.

This seemed like legitimate reasoning to me. MsP was a misyeet in basics and did play exactly how we'd been told she tended to play (by people who had played with her before). Is this active wolf hunting - no, but I understand the reasoning behind it.

Reasonable.

The only reason that I pulled this quote in particular is because later on, he goes back to saying that it looks like it will be a repeat of last time, which I thought was a little strange just because the fact that MsP had posted at all to that point proved that it wasn't going to be an exact repeat of last time. That might be me getting hung up on semantics, but I made a note of it. I just saw that he made another post that mentioned her AGAIN while I was writing this ISO out, and I don't know how I feel about that. It feels a little tunnelly to me given that the posts she's made do have good content. It's pretty clear to me, at least, that MsP isn't playing in this game the way she did in Basics. And yet, he goes back to her later on to say it again, when clearly it's not going to be a repeat of basics.



He and I both started going after genny at this point because she wouldn't give any substantive answer when I asked who her wolf reads were or who was in her POE. This is one of the things that I agree with him on - I do feel it's, at best, anti-village play to do that. Regarding the bolded part, he did say earlier in the game that he was leaning more toward a village genny and then switched to a wolf lean, but that seemed to be based on her interactions with me regarding her reads. Because of that, I'm inclined to agree with the bolded; I think he reevaluated based on new information, but it's not striking me as hedging.

One of the things that stood out to me a little bit while I was doing this ISO is that there have been a few instances where I either haven't really followed Zenge's logic or I've felt like he's stretching a bit to try and make a particular point. I've pulled those and have them here:

Spoiler: Stretches or logic I don't follow

Z is not the only person who got fairly hung up on Lupin's post calling April towny just based on when she posted, but he stayed on it for a while and read a lot into it. Again, not the only person to do that, but I made a note of it.





This feels to me like reading way more into Lupin's post than necessary and I don't really follow why he went on the attack over this so much.


This felt like a stretch to me when sunshine was just talking about Cyndia's PM preferences and how mkg wouldn't know that, being a nooblet and not having played with Cyndia before.






There were 3 people on this vote, and it really didn't build "fast" in the sense of multiple people jumping on within the same hour. The votes, temporally, were fairly far apart (several hours).


Then we get to Zenge's reads that he was asked for. I bolded those sentences because they seem stretchy to me. LIS wasn't pushing Alissa's vote switch more than some other people, and he and Zenge did have an interaction discussing Barks, so it seemed a little odd to me that he decided he had a wolf lean on LIS just based on this specific thing. I also don't think I agree with his feeling on Lupin and the amount of fluff vs non-fluff. He was super hung up on the towny comment for a while, and this felt a little like an extension of that.


He stayed on this train of thought and I don't really know why, given that LIS's vote didn't land on Alissa and that LIS wasn't pushing Alissa harder than other people, as I mentioned earlier. Again, feels stretchy to me, and that he kept with it feels really odd.


Already addressed this earlier this morning, but I don't like assumptions being made when my response to his LIS read was just to ask him what his read on Alissa was. No more, no less.

I just feel like I'm used to stronger analysis of players than this. Neither of us have played with LIS before, that's true, but I feel like Zenge can do much better analyses than getting hung up on one point like this.

Then there are some things that either struck me as very aggressive or that I straight up don't buy. Now, we've seen in previous games that Z can get very frustrated and angry - and he's been village all of those times. I've seen him rage quit before (emojis, although he then came back to get the last word) and do something that looked like a rage quit but wasn't (the hail mary approach that he tried in goats), so him getting angry at people doesn't ping me on its own. I'm sure that April kind of tunnelling on him, if he's village, frustrated him a lot - and that was part of why I had a wolf lean on her and some villagey vibes from him. But he's also said some things that struck me as unnecessarily snippy, and while I don't want to read into it too much, I do want to make a note of it.

Additionally, as I mentioned, there are some things he said that struck me as backpedaling on things he'd push, particularly related to how he was fixated on Lupin's towny comment.

Spoiler: Things that make me go hmmm...

I don't buy either of these things. Yeah, we've only played in games where it's been called wolf/village, but both of us have read articles on MafiaWiki and MU. I don't think this is the first time he encountered this language, and while the putting it on a scale thing was funny, I don't believe it. I'm unwilling to give him a pass on that.


I know he said this was a joke and apologized (below), but it did seem a little unnecessary and mean-spirited to me. I'm glad he apologized to sunny. I made a note of it because this felt different from angry Zenge - and maybe he really did mean it as a joke and just really missed the mark. But it felt mean when I read it.

And then we get to posts where I feel like he's making an effort to wolf hunt and providing reads. He did do some ISOing yesterday and pulled quotes to go with his thoughts, and some of this is what was giving me village leanings yesterday (although not enough for me to take him out of my neutrals).

Spoiler: Posts that seemed like wolf hunting or more like village!Zenge

This is a big post with a lot of information in it. I appreciate that he gives reasons with his reads. The wordiness is his norm.

Asking someone about a specific interaction like this strikes me as pro-village and is fairly typical Zenge behavior.



Both of these interactions with April, when they were occurring, didn't give me wolfy vibes because like I mentioned before, we've seen village!Zenge get angry before. In light of April's flip, I think you could make an argument for this being more than that. I'm not confident in that because I do see the reasoning behind his frustration; sometimes April's posts did read to me like they were criticizing him for one thing, and then criticizing him for the opposite of that thing. Again, that's part of what had contributed to my wolf lean on her; the criticisms seemed incompatible sometimes.

This was directed at genny in response to her calling him opportunistic, which was kind of a strange comment because as he pointed out here, she had put her yeet vote down before he put his. I will say that I can see an argument for his yeet vote on her being retaliatory based on how quickly he placed it after she put hers on him, but he had been vocal at that point about how her lack of providing a POE didn't sit right with him, so even if there was some retaliation in the vote timing, there was actual reason for it as well.

This was directed at Cyndia and strikes me as a reasonable point to make.

More talking to April about genny and the opportunistic comment.

Then we have where he got angry about the comment jaboo made about him at yeet. I have to admit that I thought that was an odd comment too - I think many of us were present at yeet and not necessarily posting because the thread was blowing up so fast. I do think it was odd to call him out specifically, but I don't think it was something wolfy by jaboo. I don't think that Zenge's anger about it was necessarily wolfy either, but I'll also put that on these posts specifically, I'm a little biased because he was very hangry and cranky IRL at this time and I think that bled over into his posts a bit.

Spoiler: Responses to jaboo's lurk comment

It was not really a bandwagon, it was a comment by jaboo and then April said something.

Dear god, that might be the biggest post I've ever made.
tl;dr: I have a wolfy side of neutral lean on Zenge right now. I let some things slide yesterday based on his tone in previous games, but I'd like to see more analysis from him today and less arguing with people.

thank you for taking the time to do this bc holy crap that was a lot of work.
my feelings coming away from it are that zenge seems to be hyper-focusing on strange things, which i haven't really seen him do before. From what I remember he definitely picks things apart, which is a great approach, but a lot of what we saw yesterday was continuing conversation about a bunch of things that some/most people thought were little and not worth that much notoriety.
I'm slight wolf leaning zenge now, down from slight village lean.
This also looks like a village!shorty analysis that I'm used to so shorty is pretty squarely in village now.

 

[jaboo]

lord the conflict in this game really caught me off guard

Glad it’s not just me. I mean I know there are splicers around, but geez, tensions do not need to be this high this early.

 

[supershorty]

thank you for taking the time to do this bc holy crap that was a lot of work.

Posts are going to be a little slower from me today because I'm ISOing a bunch of people and going through 31 pages of thread is slooooooow. Zenge's ISO took me almost 2 hours 😳

 

[Lupin21]

Posts are going to be a little slower from me today because I'm ISOing a bunch of people and going through 31 pages of thread is slooooooow. Zenge's ISO took me almost 2 hours 😳

Try hard ------> wolf

jk. You can be villa lean for a moment.

 

[LetItSnow]

April asked for my read on you and there wasn’t a lot to go on. That pinged me but it’s not enough to put you at the top of my list or anything. I brought it up again, because shorty was making the assumption that it meant I didn’t think Alissa was sketchy, which wasn’t the case, I did. I brought it up again, not to go after you, just to highlight that while I thought Alissa was sketchy, I didn’t think the vote switch thing was worth getting hung up on.

Who are you wolf reading right now?

Except for two things: First, you brought it up twice, and it was worded more than just "huh, not sure what else to make of LIS, and this is all I've got". Second, you forgot to mention any of the other people who pointed it out. So your reply is all kinds of sketch.

I don't play with a spreadsheet (anymore). Currently I'm not thrilled with Kata, you, or Genny. But I also need to go back and do some post count evaluation, because there's always one wolf who tries to float through with the bare minimum fluff posts (might be Genny). I'm glad wolves/somebody killed Barkley, because she was going to become a thorn in my side as far as "wolf or not" - good to get that answered. And I was slightly surprised about sunshine getting killed. Clearly need to go back and iso sunshine because a) I had sunshine leaning wolf, and b) seems to me to be a surprise target for the wolves/somebody.

I'm replying to your "who do you wolf read" this time, because we've never played together that I know. But don't even think of trying to boss me into answering your questions. That won't fly with me. If you don't like me, vote me. But I don't play the "constant update of my current reads" game.

Heh. I also started to reply before reading the write-up and in my initial list two paragraphs up I had Kata, you, Barkley, or Genny. Sigh.

 

[vetschoolsletmeinplease]

I had her in my village reads yesterday bc her tone struck me so squarely as village!genny and stubborn village!genny but i think that it's gone a little bit past that, she hasn't really cooperated with anyone which i don't think is normal for village gen. i have a difficult time reading her and i wanna see where this goes,

yeet genny

i wanna know more about how you're reading people, from your village reads to your neutrals to wolf reads and why people are in those categories

 

[LetItSnow]

Okay, well you asked immediately after I posted mentioning Alissa. If I was wrong about your intention, I was wrong.

It pinged me about LIS because there wasn’t much else to go on. When I’m looking for things that stand out, that stood out. Other people made that case too, and I still disagreed with it, but they also had a lot more posts to analyze.

Still don't buy this. Your wording in both posts where you brought it up doesn't align with your explanation here. You didn't phrase it as "*shrug* Nothing else to go on, so.....". It was more direct.

You're throwing shade.

 

[LetItSnow]

My comment was regarding something that happened in this game (it just also happened in a previous game too). I wasn't using it as a meta evaluation.

Ok, that's fair. There were a ton of other prior-game-referencing posts and I was just getting grumpy about it.

 

[Animal Midwife]

I had her in my village reads yesterday bc her tone struck me so squarely as village!genny and stubborn village!genny but i think that it's gone a little bit past that, she hasn't really cooperated with anyone which i don't think is normal for village gen. i have a difficult time reading her and i wanna see where this goes,

yeet genny

i wanna know more about how you're reading people, from your village reads to your neutrals to wolf reads and why people are in those categories

Did you change your mind on Zenge?

 

[Zenge142]

Except for two things: First, you brought it up twice, and it was worded more than just "huh, not sure what else to make of LIS, and this is all I've got". Second, you forgot to mention any of the other people who pointed it out.

I brought it up twice because I was first directly asked about you, and then secondly, misunderstood shorty's intention of asking me about Alissa, assuming it related to your bringing it up. I didn't mention other people because I wasn't analyzing who all was making the same points, I was asked about you specifically.

I tend to be very wordy so what I wrote actually was my version of "huh, not sure what else to make of LIS, and this is all I've got".

 

[vetschoolsletmeinplease]

Did you change your mind on Zenge?

no, but i feel like i have enough information to be ok putting a vote there. i don't have enough information from genny, and i think its early enough in the day cycle to place a pressure vote for info

 

[vetschoolsletmeinplease]

I brought it up twice because I was first directly asked about you, and then secondly, misunderstood shorty's intention of asking me about Alissa, assuming it related to your bringing it up. I didn't mention other people because I wasn't analyzing who all was making the same points, I was asked about you specifically.

I tend to be very wordy so what I wrote actually was my version of "huh, not sure what else to make of LIS, and this is all I've got".

but if you're not sure what to make of someone, why wouldn't they be in neutral?

 

[Animal Midwife]

no, but i feel like i have enough information to be ok putting a vote there. i don't have enough information from genny, and i think its early enough in the day cycle to place a pressure vote for info

Could you explain more about the bolded?

 

[LetItSnow]

I brought it up twice because I was first directly asked about you, and then secondly, misunderstood shorty's intention of asking me about Alissa, assuming it related to your bringing it up. I didn't mention other people because I wasn't analyzing who all was making the same points, I was asked about you specifically.

I tend to be very wordy so what I wrote actually was my version of "huh, not sure what else to make of LIS, and this is all I've got".

So now we're expected to guess what you meant? That's not how this works.

 

[vetschoolsletmeinplease]

Could you explain more about the bolded?

given absolutely no other information, if i had to put a final vote down right now, I think it would go to zenge. a lot of people who are in my village are feeling worse and worse about zenge, april who was in my village was feeling worse about him, and i think there's value to that. so that in addition to my own feelings about how he's hyper-focused on things (ref my post quoting shorty's iso), he's my strongest wolfy read rn.

 

[Zenge142]

but if you're not sure what to make of someone, why wouldn't they be in neutral?

I was leaning wolf because I thought the AM quick vote switch is a weird thing to get hung up on, and as it turns out she was telling the truth. Other people brought it up, but other people also made more robust cases for Alissa that didn't just include that. LIS hadn't, and hadn't posted much more. It was just lean.

 

[Animal Midwife]

given absolutely no other information, if i had to put a final vote down right now, I think it would go to zenge. a lot of people who are in my village are feeling worse and worse about zenge, april who was in my village was feeling worse about him, and i think there's value to that. so that in addition to my own feelings about how he's hyper-focused on things (ref my post quoting shorty's iso), he's my strongest wolfy read rn.

Do you think genny/Zenge are w/w?

 

[LetItSnow]

The sunshine kill bothers me.

Mostly because if I were a wolf, I would have left sunshine alone because sunshine was coming out swinging and trashing the place, and a bull in the china shop is always good for the wolves.

So either sunshine was killed by an independent, or sunshine was swinging randomly at the wolves. Need to iso.

As stated, I'm not super bummed about the Barkley loss. I think that was headed toward becoming a distraction anyway.

Probably ditto with the April loss, except that it sucks to lose 3 villies in one night.

Incidentally, gonna throw this out there, if anyone had any money stolen last night, there are two thieves on the board, because I know precisely who April's target was.

 

[vetschoolsletmeinplease]

I was leaning wolf because I thought the AM quick vote switch is a weird thing to get hung up on, and as it turns out she was telling the truth. Other people brought it up, but other people also made more robust cases for Alissa that didn't just include that. LIS hadn't, and hadn't posted much more. It was just lean.

idk i feel like the two thoughts conflict.
to me, not sure=neutral; granted it can be neutral with points either way, but still neutral.
idk how to feel ≠ leaning wolf to me
and the discrepancy and continued discrepancy seems like an easy thing to fall back on if pushed about it

 

[vetschoolsletmeinplease]

Do you think genny/Zenge are w/w?

idk yet actually i hadn't thought that far. let me go back through to look for interactions and ill come back with an opinion hold on

 

[LetItSnow]

I was leaning wolf because I thought the AM quick vote switch is a weird thing to get hung up on, and as it turns out she was telling the truth. Other people brought it up, but other people also made more robust cases for Alissa that didn't just include that. LIS hadn't, and hadn't posted much more. It was just lean.

Continuing to stretch. I had posted a lot more than a LOT of people in the game. And I wasn't putting as much pressure on her as others.

I dunno. I might be tunneling, for sure, but you came off as sketch when you tried to hook my name to Alissa, and your defense has been utterly weak.

 

[LetItSnow]

Do you think genny/Zenge are w/w?

Do you?

 

[Animal Midwife]

Do you?

I do not.

 

[Lawpy]

The sunshine kill bothers me.

Mostly because if I were a wolf, I would have left sunshine alone because sunshine was coming out swinging and trashing the place, and a bull in the china shop is always good for the wolves.

So either sunshine was killed by an independent, or sunshine was swinging randomly at the wolves. Need to iso.

As stated, I'm not super bummed about the Barkley loss. I think that was headed toward becoming a distraction anyway.

Probably ditto with the April loss, except that it sucks to lose 3 villies in one night.

Incidentally, gonna throw this out there, if anyone had any money stolen last night, there are two thieves on the board, because I know precisely who April's target was.

Thoughts on sunshiny being vig killed?

 

[LetItSnow]

As an aside, who was it that always used to insist that there had to be a wolf in each group?????

I almost made a post along those lines, but then I realized there might only be 3-4 people here who would get it.

 

[LetItSnow]

I do not.

Ok. I'd put at least one of them as wolf. But I'm not sure which. Tentatively genny>zenge, but ....

I have a little tiny bit of concern that genny has some silly mod restriction or something about the nature of her posts, especially with her 'stay tuned' post (or whatever it said). But not enough concern to make me push her back to neutral.

 

[Lawpy]

As an aside, who was it that always used to insist that there had to be a wolf in each group?????

I almost made a post along those lines, but then I realized there might only be 3-4 people here who would get it.

I suggested it once before in a past game over a year ago iirc

 

[LetItSnow]

Thoughts on sunshiny being vig killed?

Uh. Crap. Hang on.... need to see which ones got it with a knife vs gun.

 

[Animal Midwife]

Ok. I'd put at least one of them as wolf. But I'm not sure which. Tentatively genny>zenge, but ....

I have a little tiny bit of concern that genny has some silly mod restriction or something about the nature of her posts, especially with her 'stay tuned' post (or whatever it said). But not enough concern to make me push her back to neutral.

Doubtful. That all looked liked posts genny would make naturally.

 

[LetItSnow]

Thoughts on sunshiny being vig killed?

Yeah, so sunshine got it with the gun vs the others with the knife.

Sure. Makes sense. Dunno that it's true, but it's entirely believable. Especially the way he came out swinging; his post tenor really rubbed me the wrong way so I imagine it rubbed other people the wrong way.

 

[LetItSnow]

I suggested it once before in a past game over a year ago iirc

Nah. There was someone who really stuck to that theory game after game.

 

[pawprintsandponytails]

Wait how is Trouts a noob? And why is she busted? Or why are you busted?

it was my sarcasm that I am a noob not showing through

 

[WildZoo]

As an aside, who was it that always used to insist that there had to be a wolf in each group?????

It was trh 🙂

 

[LetItSnow]

Doubtful. That all looked liked posts genny would make naturally.

So you're saying she looks wolfy, or just that she's being typically unhelpful? Which?

 

[WildZoo]

Day 2 No Gods Or Kings, Only Man Vote Tally

mayo ()
Zenge (1) - jaboo
katashark (1) - Lawpy
genny (2) - AM, vetschoolsplz
vetschoolsplz (2) - Lupin, Cray

6/22

Leading: —
Missing: most

Vote/Yeet deadline closes at 10pm Eastern, Thursday, 3/4/2021 (~31.5 hours)

 

[Animal Midwife]

So you're saying she looks wolfy, or just that she's being typically unhelpful? Which?

I'm saying the post cadence is typical of her regardless of affiliation and I'd be shocked if any of that was a restriction. Her actions are a separate matter and I'm reading those as wolfy.

 

[Ms Procrastinator]

Two of my POEs flipped village yesterday and last night so I'm gonna have to look harder at some of the village reads I had earlier. I still thinks there's a wolf between AM and genny. I have some essays I have to get started on but I'll be around sometime in the evening.

 

[LetItSnow]

Hm. I don't have a vote on the board and I'm a believer in getting votes out.

Um.

lynch genny, zenge, kata

kidding

lynch kata for now because it makes it a three-way and that's always fun

idk i feel like the two thoughts conflict.
to me, not sure=neutral; granted it can be neutral with points either way, but still neutral.
idk how to feel ≠ leaning wolf to me
and the discrepancy and continued discrepancy seems like an easy thing to fall back on if pushed about it

This is a "gosh look at me contribute" post that wolves make. Looks to be evaluating and playing, but doesn't actually say anything

idk yet actually i hadn't thought that far. let me go back through to look for interactions and ill come back with an opinion hold on

And this is a wolf kind of "uh, I don't want to be nailed down, so I'm going to beg off and the conveniently forget to answer" post.

Pleasy or whatever people call you, it'd be nice to come back and actually answer that last one.

 

[LetItSnow]

Two of my POEs flipped village yesterday and last night so I'm gonna have to look harder at some of the village reads I had earlier. I still thinks there's a wolf between AM and genny. I have some essays I have to get started on but I'll be around sometime in the evening.

Isn't this the same thing MsP did yesterday? Came on, dropped a hedgy post, disappeared until right before vote close? Or am I mis-remembering?

Don't like.

 

[LetItSnow]

I'm saying the post cadence is typical of her regardless of affiliation and I'd be shocked if any of that was a restriction. Her actions are a separate matter and I'm reading those as wolfy.

Ok. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Animal Midwife]

Isn't this the same thing MsP did yesterday? Came on, dropped a hedgy post, disappeared until right before vote close? Or am I mis-remembering?

Don't like.

I'd have to look back at her POE yesterday, but I didn't think any flipped because she was on please.

 

[LetItSnow]

I'd have to look back at her POE yesterday, but I didn't think any flipped because she was on please.

Wasn't really worried about how her reads vs flips went. More the posting approach of "here's a quick post, I'm busy, I'll be back" and then showing up toward the end. Just that that's a lazy wolf way to play because of the "less I say, less I can get held to" approach.

I get your point with her impact on the vote, though.

 

[Ms Procrastinator]

Isn't this the same thing MsP did yesterday? Came on, dropped a hedgy post, disappeared until right before vote close? Or am I mis-remembering?

Don't like.

I think that was alissa

 

[Animal Midwife]

Per this post, it looks like her POE was please, mkg, genny, and alissa. So which two people flipping were you talking about ruining your POE, @Ms Procrastinator?

Finally caught up!

Lawpy- Is giving very village vibes. Love the post quantity and quality, especially the tinfoils. A tinfoily lawpy is often a village Lawpy.

Pleasy (is this vetschoolspleaseletmein?)- Wolfy pleasy apparently over explains. Way too over explainy on why they're cool with yeeting me. Kinda sus. It's giving me "Well y'all I'd do it if it came down to it" vibes. Cool with voting me but hasn't asked me any substantial questions.

Lupin- That whole april thing was weird. Even if the second poster was statistically village it was still weird to just blurt on thread. Still, Lupin is a darn good wolf. She really wouldn't mess up like that. Lupin is a good wolf so I'm very wary of her.

Shorty- Has some strong reads. I like them so far.

MKG- Something pinged off about an AM salt vote they made earlier.

Genny- AM thinks she's playing up her anxiety which she's done twice as a wolf. I think the AM/Genny interaction definitely has a wolf in there. If AM got confirmed village, I think I'd vote genny.

Zenge- Really liked their reasoning for my and genny's vote. I don't think they seem opportunistic as genny put it.

Alissa- She seems very echoey. @alissa14 who else besides me and AM do you think is wolfy. It seems weird that you put everyone else as village or neutral, but put only me and AM as wolves. It seems like you're just going off of what other people say. Who else pings you as wolfy.

I don't have a grasp on April ATM. maybe it's the swift run through. I need to look closer into her.

Also, I've been over this a thousand times in a thousand games. My post count is NAI. Me posting more is indicative of my affiliation. My countless deaths prove that.


AM is usually always on my case, but there are times when she's chill. Her not breathing down my neck a little slightly worries me, but I get a good vibe from her so far.

 

[Animal Midwife]

Wasn't really worried about how her reads vs flips went. More the posting approach of "here's a quick post, I'm busy, I'll be back" and then showing up toward the end. Just that that's a lazy wolf way to play because of the "less I say, less I can get held to" approach.

I get your point with her impact on the vote, though.

She actually doing better than usual in that retrospect ironically.

 

[Ms Procrastinator]

Per this post, it looks like her POE was please, mkg, genny, and alissa. So which two people flipping were you talking about ruining your POE, @Ms Procrastinator?

April. I mentioned that I needed to look at her more closely to get a better grasp on her. She confused me a bit.

 

[Animal Midwife]

April. I mentioned that I needed to look at her more closely to get a better grasp on her. She confused me a bit.

Huh. I took that as a neutral read. Regardless, do you have updated takes on the four listed at the top?

 

[Lupin21]

As an aside, who was it that always used to insist that there had to be a wolf in each group?????

I almost made a post along those lines, but then I realized there might only be 3-4 people here who would get it.

TRH

 

[supershorty]

Pleasy ISO incoming. Overall, keeping my wolf lean on her unless things change a lot today. After going through this, her alissa vote looks particularly bad to me mainly because she hedged all day on just about everyone, and then decided she had a confident read on alissa and started the wagon that got her misyeeted. I have more detail on this with the quotes, but I'm just struck by it after going through her posts. I know this is another enormous ISO and is a lot to read - I think the most important section is the one with her votes and explanations.

Interestingly, there's a little overlap in weird things that I saw in Zenge's ISO and weird things that I saw in this one, specifically related to MsP, but they pinged me for different reasons. I thought it was odd of pleasy to bring up MsP's play in the basics game the way that she did because pleasy was wolfing in that game, and MsP's misyeet helped contribute to the wolf win. Is it inherently wolfy - no, it just made me scratch my head a little. In Z's ISO, I thought the MsP comments were a little strange just because he seemed so fixated on her, even after she responded to the pressure vote the way that he wanted. So it's interesting to me that 2 people who I've gotten some wolfy vibes from have gotten a little stuck on the same person. Z did much moreso than pleasy, but I want to make a note of it. She also jumped on the bandwagon that got hung up on Lupin's "April is towny" remark.

Spoiler: MsP and Lupin posts

I mean honestly her antivillage play from last time i played w her makes me want to autoyeet her regardless of affiliation. Antivillage is still hurting the village, no matter who's doing it. I may move my vote from joke Shorty to real MsP depending on how the next day goes
After catching up: I think that in the last page she's sounded a lot more provillage than what I saw before. I'm still wary but I'll hold off voting there for now

seeing the quotes all together doesn't make me feel great

if i was village when that happened, i would have been so angry. i was wolf so it worked to my advantage, but i took note of someone's (I forget who now) early warning about her and then that exact thing coming to fruition. My vote isn't there, because today she's seemed provillage, which is why people have kinda backed off (myself included)
tbh I think it's weird to find the sus of her weird

Maybe I'm reading into it too much, it just strikes me as weird that a pressure vote was applied to get her to post earlier than she did in Basics (which, Z mentioned, was literally only in the hour before yeet close but I want to mention she showed up on D2 - she ghosted on D1 and didn't vote), she showed up in this game and started posting, and then people still took issue with that or acted like she was playing exactly the same as in that game. There's a big difference just in the fact that she posted on D1 at all - and then the posts that she provided, IMO, had more content than her posts in the Basics game. I think she could be an easy misyeet with all the focus on her previous play, and maybe she'd like to not be misyeeted early and so is playing in a more pro-village manner. I just feel like it's a stretch for people to say "this is what she did in Basics!" and use that as justification for sussing her, because it's not at all what she did in basics.

sorry-
Not feeling great about it turning out that the second post in the whole game was serious (or at least I think it was the second post- it was EARLY)
And then the like continuously defending the position? Based off of a single post from April?
idk lupin at all obv but i don't like the feeling i get from the progression of the quotes

This is regarding the towny comment by Lupin. Seems stretchy, and I feel that way about any of the posts that got really hung up on that particular one. It was a weird thing to fixate on.

it has. i was under the impression that when lupin said april>towny it meant lupin was very sure about it. I think for me its bc im used to people saying "village lean" or "plus village points" for someone, rather than "___ is villager" (which is what i feel lupin posted) when they're not clearing them. lupin got moved back into neutrals

I just wanted to put this here because I called out Zenge for not knowing the town thing and not buying it, but I'm not as confident saying that about pleasy because I don't know what/if she's done any WW reading outside of games.

I want to note, too, that she kept this sus idea of both MsP and people who pointed out that it was a strange thing to be sussing given that she was playing differently. She gave Dina a slight wolf lean in her reads later on solely for that. It just seems like a logical incongruity given the info I gave above about MsP's play in Basics vs this game.

i didn't ask anything bc from what i remembered, you weren't super responsive to people asking stuff of you last game i played with you. i never actually placed a vote on you. i said what boils down to "if i see antivillage play coming from MsP, imma yeet her, but that's not what I'm seeing so I won't yeet her for now." i didn't feel like there was more to get from that

Back on the MsP thing even later in the day after she'd posted more.

Then we have a fair amount of wishy-washy hedging and some overexplaining from pleasy when she's asked about read interactions. I will say that pleasy does tend to write in a way that strikes me as a little stream-of-consciousness - I've noticed it in other games too, but I don't think she usually hedges as much as she has with some of these posts below. There's even more hedging in the reads but I wanted to give that its own category because it has some big posts and I had a lot of comments.

Spoiler: Hedging

i think this could be a good point. I think it might be w/w or w/v but honestly i don't have a feeling either way for which is wolf or village. April doesn't super sound like wolf!April to me and I only spectated on wolf!AM game. However, I am noticing that what April is saying is making sense to me and I'm not getting what AM's not getting. So I guess thats.. slight lean more towards AM? I think its too early to tell but I wanna keep eyes on both of their interactions

This is hedgy by itself, but then it's compounded by the next quote that I pulled.

In response to April asking about her slight lean on AM: wolf

In response to Lawpy saying why W/W: following the logic of an orchestrated discussion, but i don't think that's as likely as w/v

In response to April saying why not V/V: not ruled out

To put this in a little more context, I've added some bold text with what she was answering because I can't get the quote within the quote to work right. So basically, she made this hedgy post about April and AM, and it looks like maybe she's contributing, but then she's pretty much saying that it could be literally any affiliation combination and she won't really take a stand on which one she thinks is most likely, other than lightly saying that she doesn't think W/W is as likely as W/V. It feels like contributing without contributing to me.

there have been a few comments from people saying im hedgy, overexplainy and echoey.
so at the risk of being overexaplainy, I just am. It's NAI, I'm a very wordy person (#1 feedback on my academic writing)
As for being hedgy, I think it was AM that encouraged I put out not thoughts not yet fully formed/carefully worded to use the hivemind, but if that's gonna get me yotted then i won't
for people who have played with me both as village and as wolf, they've seen that over explaining every word, puttin my foot in my mouth, and having a hard time forming any solid opinion is just normal, i am bad at WW village play.
When i was wolfing (and saying this will make it harder in future games where i'm wolfing but lol) I was MUCH more careful with what I posted. I used the wolfchat to test out posts and got feedback from april and visc about how posts sounded. I don't have that here, so I'm tripping over my words (like i do almost every game I'm village) and it's getting me in hot water.
idk what else i can really say to defend myself on those fronts

I had a very hard time distinguishing wolf!pleasy from village!pleasy (aka I couldn't), so I really don't see the supposed difference in her wolf and village posts. Even looking back at that game, her posts are very similar to games where she was village, so I'm not willing to give her a pass (also, saying that being hedgy is NAI doesn't really sit well with me).

Spoiler: Reads and explanations of her alissa vote

incoming but y'all aren't gonna like them. I have mostly neutral and soft village

AM- I don't like the interactions with April, genny or Alissa. I tot'ed the game where AM was wolf and the tone strikes me as similar (granted, not AS severe but similar enough to make me raise an eyebrow.) a note here; i do wanna go back and read some interactions from village AM again bc i think the most recent game may be clouding my judgement. overall: slight wolf lean
alissa: i noted the weird exchange w AM around p56 and that's about it. I think her wording of things that some people took issue with have been NAI. overall: neutral
alley: i liked the explanations on p560 and then the transparency of p564 pushed her into overall: village lean
april: i noted p495 as not sounding like her reads when she wolves. overall: village lean
barkley: put a pressure (?) vote on me and then left. Even after i directly responded, i didn't like that overall: wolf lean
chaos: I put "p179 first post comin out provillage" and i haven't noted anything since. I don't like that i haven't noted anything since but that may be due to skimming overall: slight village lean
cray: sounds like village cray from what I can tell. overall: village lean
cyndia: givin her a D1 pass bc she was my manator, haven't noted anything yet. overall: neutral
Dina: I didn't like the defense of MsP, it felt weird to me; i think it coulda been defending her to gain village cred if she flipped village overall: slight wolf lean
Genny: nothing has struck me as outside of what i've seen of genny as a villager. From what i remember, when she woofed it was WAY more joke content (like ratio wise) overall: slight village lean
kata: i like what ive seen so far, nothing to ping me either way. overall: neutral
Lainey: wya? overall: no opinion
lawpy: everything so far has read provillage to me. overall: village lean
lupin: feeling better about the april stuff from the beginning but i haven't noted much since. overall: neutral
mayo: nothing has pulled me either way. overall: neutral
mkg: seems provillage to me. overall: slight village lean
MsP: squarely in neutral bc she was here and posting but this is an opinion that can go either way pretty quickly for me. overall: neutral
ponytails: haven't seen enough of. overall: no opinion
shorty: is very hard for me to read this game. I have noted that she came out the gate w sus stronger than before but i'm not sure if this is bc she knows who's who or if shes gotten really good at WW. I know last time I woofed she was almost a NK several times bc we felt she had gotten way too good at this game. I also noted that I think her and zenge are v/v or w/v|v/w. She said something was up about him pretty early on, and she knows him pretty dang well so I'm willing to put some weight in that. overall: neutral
snow: I haven't really formed an opinion on yet. i gotta iso this one bc i think that i was skimming too much. overall: neutral
sporty: just got here. overall: no opinion
sunshine: i can appreciate the not wanting to punish playstyles bc i get that it can be straight up mean to do so, and i don't want to believe that it's anyone's goal to be mean. however, besides the note on that interaction, i don't have anything else noted. posting spreadsheets, but I think that's NAI for sunshine. overall: neutral
trilt: haven't formed an opinion either way, they got here overnight and that was the mahority of my skimming. need to read back. overall: neutral
visc: quiet. coulda missed the start of game, but i don't like how similar it looks to when I wolfed with visc. I see they're here now so im interested to see the content throughout the day. overall: slight wolf lean
zenge: sounds provillage to me but im willing to give weight to the opinion of his partner, she knows him best. overall: slight village lean.

ok, i think that's everyone

There's a lot here but I think it's interesting that she mostly did slight leans one way or the other (which I think is reasonable for early gamestate), but then was so sure of her Barks read based on really very little other than not liking a pressure vote being put on her. I mentioned the wolf lean on Dina further up and why I think it's a little off.

What's interesting with these reads, too, is that this is a big wall of text, but there's actually not that much information with any given read. There's a lot of hedging within this reads list, with things like "haven't formed an opinion yet" or "nothing has pulled me either way." Again, early gamestate, but I noted it. Most interestingly, she says that she likes what she's seen from katashark, which is extremely minimal to that point. She got called out on this later on and backpedaled a bit.

my bad, I went to go grab an example and then realized I was conflating katashark with a couple of other people. i need to get a better handle on the players I dont know yet, they blended together in my brain in my overnight reading.

Wait so you have liked what Kata has said so far, but didn't she just say she was catching up, vote April on vibes and then dip? Shouldn't that bug you since you have April as a village lean?

I appreciate mkg calling her out on this.

going through, i think i was mainly confusing kata and trilt. I'm finding myself liking what trilt is saying, not that I agree necessarily, but that they have points that seem genuinely thought out

This was pleasy's response, and then she adjusted a couple reads to the following:

i thought this was an interesting perspective. a couple of alissa's posts talking about her votes can be interpreted as trying to like
give context that didn't exist in the first place if that makes sense
feeling a little worse about alissa, and but im still not sure how to read snow.

so a couple of reads have been updated to:
kata has been moved to no opinion. haven't seen enough
trilt has been moved to village lean. I like their logic flows even though i don't really agree with the reads
and alissa has 1 more wolf point but is still largely neutral

Then there was this discussion, where a few people (me, Barks, April) wanted to know why pleasy was so inclined to trust my leaning on zenges when, according to her reads list, she was reading him as a village lean but reading me as neutral. I don't really follow the logic that she used - yes, I've gotten better at reading him in the last 2 games, but I didn't really understand why she was willing to put stock in my read when she wasn't reading me as a village lean. It would have made more sense to provide her own reasoning, but the fact that she didn't and instead picked up on my saying that he was pinging me with that one post I called out early and clung to that felt like yet another example of hedging. It would leave her with the option of saying she had a village lean on him, but in the event that he wasn't village, it also opens the door for saying "well, but I was willing to listen to shorty and she said this pinged her."

why pawprints?

i didn't mean to say that shorty was reading zenge well, just more like if his fiance thinks something is weird in his tone im willing to listen to that

shorty's in neutral bc i find her difficult to read. zenge is in slight village because i think he's sounded provillage so far. with further clarification from shorty about her comment, he's more solidly in village now. shorty remains in neutral, moving towards a slight village lean, simply bc i don't trust my own judgement of her

This felt kind of weird to say she was moving me to a slight village lean because she doesn't trust her judgment of me, but I'm hoping I'm just reading that wrong and it makes more sense than that. April pressed her a little on her read of me and I'm including it below mainly because there's more of that hedging on Z that I mentioned.

This kind of feels like personal bias weighing in here. I would understand a slight wolf lean, but being the only person in red on your entire sheet just because she voted for you and left (which is not out of character for barks, nor is it unusual for anyone D1) is shaky.

Can agree on this, and I will add her abrasiveness as village in the argument with AM struck me as stubborn village!genny.

Interesting since mayo has been active and a tad polarizing for a few people.

So wait, you say that shorty came out of the gate stronger than before but you also say that she came out of the gate strong last time? I'm not understanding. If she came in swinging in a previous game and is coming in swinging this time, I'm failing to make the connection as to where this game is different than the last.

Also she said something was off with Zenge in the last game too and he ended up being village with a PR so

i guess that's fair

to me, she came out this game even stronger than she did the previous game i played w her. i was speculating on whether it's been continued getting really good or if it was aided by having some inside info

i didn't remember that oop
but tbh, to me, it a little bit strengthens the argument that if she feels like something is off, he's not vanillager. again, im not saying he's wolf, i think he's village, but i added the note as something to keep in mind going forward.

This just leaves the door open for her to flip it around, like I mentioned before.

unyeet barks
yeet visc

i think personal bias got in the way of that judgement, and i want more time to think about it. however, the play im seeing from visc is pretty similar to when I wolfed with visc and it gives me the ickies.

Vissy had posted exactly 1 time at this point. I'd buy this being a pressure vote - Lawpy and I both put pressure votes on Vissy to get her to come participate, but it was really weird to say that this was similar play to a previous game based on one post that only talked about the number of pages the thread was. And then she stuck with that argument that it was gameplay related...

the only making one post is the gameplay
when we woofed w visc they would make a couple of posts throughout the day cycle to maintain a low-posting but not entirely absent profile, then come before yeet, after most of the arguing has been done, and skate by like that
the single post is reminding me of that

in my initial reads list i think i had her as squarely neutral and then when i reread some of the posts that transpired, esp the ones addressing her early switch, i got the feeling that she was trying to add too much logic and context to something that had neither. I got wolfy vibes from it, bc it reminded me of something that happened with a wolf in a previous game on D1

This is talking about alissa and is consistent with her reads post earlier.

that's fair and i'm really sorry if it caused hurt feelings. i feel like im grasping at straws today trying to find something to ping someone on (my wolf leans are hella weak and I'm not finding anything solid to vote for anyone on and it's frustrating), and i did forget that most of your posting was due to a nuts schedule

unyeet visc

it was mostly a pressure vote and you're here now. again, apologies 💕 💕

Okay, this was the interaction with Vissy where Vissy called out pleasy's gameplay comments that I have a few quotes above this one. That whole interaction was WEIRD. Vissy guilt tripping her like that was a little strange (I think it was reasonable to call out the gameplay comments, but the guilt factor wasn't necessary) and then this just seemed really overly apologetic. Pleasy is a really nice person and I could see her feeling bad, but this felt very exaggerated. I could see that interaction being W/W or W/V - I don't have a clear enough read of Vissy right now to be comfortable calling this interaction either way.

Now we move on to where she focuses on alissa. I want to note that I think her explanations of her read on alissa are some of the most definitive ones that she gave, and I follow her logic. In the context of her other posts, though, and knowing that alissa flipped village, I'm not sure how to interpret that she was giving a definitive and more confident read here when she was hedgy on pretty much everyone else. Pleasy was the first one to put her vote on alissa, and I find myself wondering if she is wolfing and determined that alissa would be an easy misyeet, and started the wagon.

this is one of the knitpicky things that was pointed out and i believe alissa addresses it later. I did notice her "wait and see" was not about AM- it was directed at us like "wait and see i aint staying here long" so i can understand her later frustration about this being misunderstood

This was in response to Barks pointing out that alissa's vote switch was within the same minute. I think it's a little odd to call that nitpicky - that's a legitimate observation to make. Did alissa flip village ultimately - yes, but that doesn't change that it was a weird thing to do and a reasonable thing to get called out on.

okay i think the clock becomes important here. I the last like real pressing about this vote came before 6 pm, and then this post was after 9 pm. This is where i start to feel really icky, because this passage isolated makes it sound like someone's been drilling her for hours, when a lot of the attention had gone elsewhere at that point. I think this trend continues


and then hours later, when most of the attention about the vote switch was retroactive speculation, and speculation mostly about her response, she said this. this is what made me feel most ick about her, esp the bolded. I get being frustrated, I really do, but the first sentence skeeves me out. and then the "and anyone who questions me further is sketch" is ridiculous and reads to me as a way to cast easy sus on any player.

overall, i found myself agreeing and understanding the early on responses to the questioning. then, as the day moved forward, we were faced with 2 scenarios: a very frustrated villager, or a floundering and a little bit paranoid wolf.
and after reading this all again, between the "that was the plan" thing and then the (in my opinion) weird phrasing of her later explanations, i gotta put alissa in my wolf category. i don't like how it all looks put together with the timeline

i feel bad bc i really like her as a person but

yeet alissa

i also think its weird that for all of the shade thrown throughout the day, no one put down a vote. so i want to see where putting a vote down goes

The confidence on this vote in contrast with her hedging on pretty much everything else really squicks me out.

Then we have today's posts (at least the ones that she'd made when I started doing this ISO). She's slightly wolf leaning Zenge now, after reading my ISO. I'm curious to see their interactions today/tomorrow because at the start of her ISO, I had the thought that a pleasy/Z pack didn't seem to be incompatible. I still feel that way, but I want to see how it evolves.

Spoiler: Today's posts

i think this is interesting and def. something to keep in mind. i have her currently in a very weak village read for participation

Still on the MsP thing.

i may be interpreting this incorrectly, but wasn't that a self prez?

thank you for taking the time to do this bc holy crap that was a lot of work.
my feelings coming away from it are that zenge seems to be hyper-focusing on strange things, which i haven't really seen him do before. From what I remember he definitely picks things apart, which is a great approach, but a lot of what we saw yesterday was continuing conversation about a bunch of things that some/most people thought were little and not worth that much notoriety.
I'm slight wolf leaning zenge now, down from slight village lean.
This also looks like a village!shorty analysis that I'm used to so shorty is pretty squarely in village now.

I had her in my village reads yesterday bc her tone struck me so squarely as village!genny and stubborn village!genny but i think that it's gone a little bit past that, she hasn't really cooperated with anyone which i don't think is normal for village gen. i have a difficult time reading her and i wanna see where this goes,

yeet genny

i wanna know more about how you're reading people, from your village reads to your neutrals to wolf reads and why people are in those categories

I have to think about this a little because I'm wolf reading genny, but I'm also wolf reading pleasy. Could be bussing, but it would be an early bus to get on (which has happened in a game where pleasy wolfed, but she did not do it - she was the one wolf who stayed off either of the buses and was on a random villager). I'll be interested to see if she stays on genny or not, and if she moves off her, what her reasoning is.

Also, this wasn't today but:

I use the ctrl+f function and go page by page but i know other people have fancier methods involving SDN's search tool but i don't pretend to know how to use it.

It's really not hard to use. Don't do that to yourself.

 

[alleycat03]

The echoing I'm hearing about AM is bothering me especially because people are wolf reading her for completely opposite things (questioning too much, not questioning enough, etc.). Assuming AM is village I can see it as a wolfy move to try to get her yeeted early.



Iirc you said similar things in the basics game where she was a wolf. What do you consider wolfing behavior from pleasy?



You've said this twice already and it's feeling like a way to avoid giving thoughts on thread.

I am feeling better now about AM, especially as I read further into the game thread and get caught up.

I have her on the wolfy side of neutral, but I think she is acting more like typical village AM even though the first few pages of the thread gave me more wolfy pings with the outright snark she had.

wolfy please=her posts sound like they've been edited and peer-reviewed, and they are less rambly. She is still hedgey and uncertain, but her tone is off slightly. I'm not the best at honing in on that distinction (and she tricked me during basics), but so far this game I do not think she is wolfy. I am biased because I like pleasy as a person, so I'm trying to avoid letting that bias influence my read of her. I would like to ISO her once I get caught up, and it looks like a few people are currently reading her as wolfy today.


I am giving my thoughts as I catch up, but I am currently 17 pages behind thanks to my roommate situation and my coursework. I am putting in effort to get caught up but my IRL life is quite messy and interefered with WW hardcore last night.