Addressing PE

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Jack Donaghy said:
I hate the NBOME as much as the next guy.... but there's a reason why the ACGME got fully on board with OMM to the point of establishing a 3-year residency dedicated solely to it.

Because it's legit.

Sure, cranial and Chapman's points are obviously dumb AF but the ACGME aren't a bunch of quacks that would take something entirely useless and create a residency around it. Follow any DO sports med doc, PM&R doc, FM doc and see how OMM can be used to seriously aid in patient care and MSK issues. The idea that DO schools should ditch it entirely is ridiculous.

I've met SO many MD residents at OMM-heavy FM programs that talk about how they wish their curriculum included its use in med school. I know the frustration that DO students have to deal with due to "the old guard", but don't let that knock the entirety of a very legitimate treatment for patients out there IRL.
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I’m not going to waste much energy on this, but the logic of this argument is indeed ridiculous. Legitimate medicine is backed by high quality, objective evidence. I could easily find a horde of people on social media that believe Chiropractic, Magnetic Healing, and Chakra Field Therapy are incredibly effective and have relieved a great deal of suffering. Does that mean that an entire medical degree should be centered on these practices? Or perhaps we should integrate them into the DO curriculum? Shouldn’t medicine do it’s best to remain a place of evidence based therapies and reject ideas like “somatic dysfunctions” and other remnants of 1800s quakery?
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Personally, something I've come to appreciate in my clinical rotations was the palpatory techniques we've developed. I never really realized how competent I'd gotten with the subtle...dare I say TARTs....even when compared to practicing physicians. A few MD attendings were actually impressed and kinda dissed their MSK training. Of course...if the PE stays dead and we stop treating Clinical Skills classes like discount Acting 101 classes that would probably help with that.

cbc86 said:
I’m not going to waste much energy on this, but the logic of this argument is indeed ridiculous. Legitimate medicine is backed by high quality, objective evidence. I could easily find a horde of people on social media that believe Chiropractic, Magnetic Healing, and Chakra Field Therapy are incredibly effective and have relieved a great deal of suffering. Does that mean that an entire medical degree should be centered on these practices? Or perhaps we should integrate them into the DO curriculum? Shouldn’t medicine do it’s best to remain a place of evidence based therapies and reject ideas like “somatic dysfunctions” and other remnants of 1800s quakery?
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I think Chapman's points actually line up accurately with the points used in acupuncture, so we're going well into the BC millennia lol.
 
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cbc86 said:
I’m not going to waste much energy on this, but the logic of this argument is indeed ridiculous. Legitimate medicine is backed by high quality, objective evidence. I could easily find a horde of people on social media that believe Chiropractic, Magnetic Healing, and Chakra Field Therapy are incredibly effective and have relieved a great deal of suffering. Does that mean that an entire medical degree should be centered on these practices? Or perhaps we should integrate them into the DO curriculum? Shouldn’t medicine do it’s best to remain a place of evidence based therapies and reject ideas like “somatic dysfunctions” and other remnants of 1800s quakery?
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Bro... Chakra field therapy?!? You're seriously equating OMM to magnetic healing and Chakra field therapy lmfao.

Let me ask you this, what are your thoughts on PT? OT? How about massage therapy? Because you MUST find PT to be as quackery as magnetic healing. If you do, then I hope you let every single IM consult know they are wasting their time ordering PT since it's a bunch of voodoo. I hope you let every single surgeon know they shouldn't recommend the voodoo PT to post op patients.

Or, you do find legitimacy in PT for select MSK cases, which would mean you also find legitimacy in OMM as well since both use widely the same techniques just labeled differently.

As I said, you can and SHOULD dismiss the insanity that is cranial or Chapman's points, but to advocate for the dismissal of all OMM would to be also advocating for the dismissal of the entire field of physical therapy. Which is preposterous.
 
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Jack Donaghy said:
Bro... Chakra field therapy?!? You're seriously equating OMM to magnetic healing and Chakra field therapy lmfao.

Let me ask you this, what are your thoughts on PT? OT? How about massage therapy? Because you MUST find PT to be as quackery as magnetic healing. If you do, then I hope you let every single IM consult know they are wasting their time ordering PT since it's a bunch of voodoo. I hope you let every single surgeon know they shouldn't recommend the voodoo PT to post op patients.

Or, you do find legitimacy in PT for select MSK cases, which would mean you also find legitimacy in OMM as well since both use widely the same techniques just labeled differently.

As I said, you can and SHOULD dismiss the insanity that is cranial or Chapman's points, but to advocate for the dismissal of all OMM would to be also advocating for the dismissal of the entire field of physical therapy. Which is preposterous.
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find us 3 mid-quality studies that are adequately powered that back the effectiveness of omm. Anatomy grey is asserting omm isn’t backed by evidence. can you prove him wrong? PT on the other hand has plenty of evidence.
 
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Jack Donaghy said:
Bro... Chakra field therapy?!? You're seriously equating OMM to magnetic healing and Chakra field therapy lmfao.

Let me ask you this, what are your thoughts on PT? OT? How about massage therapy? Because you MUST find PT to be as quackery as magnetic healing. If you do, then I hope you let every single IM consult know they are wasting their time ordering PT since it's a bunch of voodoo. I hope you let every single surgeon know they shouldn't recommend the voodoo PT to post op patients.

Or, you do find legitimacy in PT for select MSK cases, which would mean you also find legitimacy in OMM as well since both use widely the same techniques just labeled differently.

As I said, you can and SHOULD dismiss the insanity that is cranial or Chapman's points, but to advocate for the dismissal of all OMM would to be also advocating for the dismissal of the entire field of physical therapy. Which is preposterous.
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So... your defense is to equate OMM with... PT/OT?
 
Jack Donaghy said:
Bro... Chakra field therapy?!? You're seriously equating OMM to magnetic healing and Chakra field therapy lmfao.

Let me ask you this, what are your thoughts on PT? OT? How about massage therapy? Because you MUST find PT to be as quackery as magnetic healing. If you do, then I hope you let every single IM consult know they are wasting their time ordering PT since it's a bunch of voodoo. I hope you let every single surgeon know they shouldn't recommend the voodoo PT to post op patients.

Or, you do find legitimacy in PT for select MSK cases, which would mean you also find legitimacy in OMM as well since both use widely the same techniques just labeled differently.

As I said, you can and SHOULD dismiss the insanity that is cranial or Chapman's points, but to advocate for the dismissal of all OMM would to be also advocating for the dismissal of the entire field of physical therapy. Which is preposterous.
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But why on earth do they teach cranial and lymphatics if they are so ridiculous?
It causes distrust in all OMM and makes us DO students reject using it.
 
Jack Donaghy said:
As I said, you can and SHOULD dismiss the insanity that is cranial or Chapman's points, but to advocate for the dismissal of all OMM would to be also advocating for the dismissal of the entire field of physical therapy. Which is preposterous.
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OMM is equivalent to chakra energy fields because what you are missing is most of it is on the same level as cranial and chapmans points. Celiac ganglion release? Yeah ok.

There are some select MSK techniques that might work, but they are in significant minority. Until the 90% that is BS is removed, that 10% is irrelevant.

OMM is a sham and needs to go. Needs to be an elective that people can learn in residency if they want. No, advocating for the complete removal of OMM isn’t advocating for removal of PT, seeing as, you know, in reality there is very small overlap.
 
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It would be far more beneficial for us to actually learn PT/OT concepts honestly.
 
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My sister is graduating PT school this year, so trust me when I say there is a HUGE overlap in what we learn and the techniques we deploy. For example, they have a fellowship they can do that just focuses on manipulation and is essentially an ONMM fellowship for PT's. Which she says augments the already massive amount of OMM-like techniques they learn starting from day 1. She went through my OMM handbook thing earlier this year and estimated that they learn at least half, if not 3/4 of the techniques in there - just rebranded into different terminologies. To suggest that PT has no overlap with OMM is downright ignorant. Oh and btw, all the robust "studies" showing PT has massive benefits focus only on outcomes, not on the science of the techniques they use. Sounds a lot like ....... OMM "research" to me. Not saying that is right or wrong, but clearly we are all ok with ordering PT on everyone and their mother, despite a rather significant lack of scientific data.

But I don't want to derail this thread any more, I just wanted to point out to those watching / lurking that there are WAY more people (MD's, DO's, PT's) who actually find benefit from OMM and use it daily than this thread's small sample size would suggest.

The point of this thread had become to keep up pressure on the NBOME so we can make sure the PE never comes back and that Gimpel can't walk away from this a winner. And that is a cause we can all get behind. So I'm sorry for going off on this tangent, I'll just leave it at that.
 
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Jack Donaghy said:
My sister is graduating PT school this year, so trust me when I say there is a HUGE overlap in what we learn and the techniques we deploy. For example, they have a fellowship they can do that just focuses on manipulation and is essentially an ONMM fellowship for PT's. Which she says augments the already massive amount of OMM-like techniques they learn starting from day 1. She went through my OMM handbook thing earlier this year and estimated that they learn at least half, if not 3/4 of the techniques in there - just rebranded into different terminologies. To suggest that PT has no overlap with OMM is downright ignorant. Oh and btw, all the robust "studies" showing PT has massive benefits focus only on outcomes, not on the science of the techniques they use. Sounds a lot like ....... OMM "research" to me. Not saying that is right or wrong, but clearly we are all ok with ordering PT on everyone and their mother, despite a rather significant lack of scientific data.
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1. You are not the only person in this thread who personally knows multiple practicing PTs and has had discussions about this with them. Their day to day is significantly different from what happens in OMM clinic. Trust me. I did an entire rotation of purely OMM clinic.

2. OMM doesn’t even have outcomes studies. That’s our point. OMM has nothing but garbage research with low N values, heavy risks of bias, conflicts of interest, and poor study design.

3. there is not “WAY more” people that utilize OMM. OMM use is declining amongst practicing osteopathic physicians. Osteopathic manipulative treatment (OMT) use among osteopathic physicians in the United States | The Journal of the American Osteopathic Association
*and their survey response rate was poor likely skewed towards people more likely to use OMM. The true rate is likely even lower.
 
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AnatomyGrey12 said:
1. You are not the only person in this thread who personally knows multiple practicing PTs and has had discussions about this with them. Their day to day is significantly different from what happens in OMM clinic. Trust me. I did an entire rotation of purely OMM clinic.

2. OMM doesn’t even have outcomes studies. That’s our point. OMM has nothing but garbage research with low N values, heavy risks of bias, conflicts of interest, and poor study design.

3. there is not “WAY more” people that utilize OMM. OMM use is declining amongst practicing osteopathic physicians. Osteopathic manipulative treatment (OMT) use among osteopathic physicians in the United States | The Journal of the American Osteopathic Association
*and their survey response rate was poor likely skewed towards people more likely to use OMM. The true rate is likely even lower.
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As I said, I don't want to derail this thread any more. I understand your points and your frustrations, and I'll leave it at that.
 
Jack Donaghy said:
As I said, I don't want to derail this thread any more. I understand your points and your frustrations, and I'll leave it at that.
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It’s my thread...

I’m sure the NBOME will do something to draw our ire again soon lol.
 
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well the update is up. Of note: "As we move forward expeditiously with this important work, remember that our first and most acute objective is to establish defensible pathway(s) for verification of clinical skills competencies in the licensure pathway for the Class of 2021 (and earlier), which will be announced no later than March 11, 2021. This will NOT require that students travel to a center to test, nor will it include any fees for these candidates"
IMO verification = school verifies

COMLEX USA Level 2-PE — NBOME

www.nbome.org www.nbome.org
 
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TXKnight said:
well the update is up. Of note: "As we move forward expeditiously with this important work, remember that our first and most acute objective is to establish defensible pathway(s) for verification of clinical skills competencies in the licensure pathway for the Class of 2021 (and earlier), which will be announced no later than March 11, 2021. This will NOT require that students travel to a center to test, nor will it include any fees for these candidates"
IMO verification = school verifies

COMLEX USA Level 2-PE — NBOME

www.nbome.org www.nbome.org
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Sounds great. Send to my school to rubberstamp this **** posthaste. They can "verify" that I am indeed about to finish 4 years of med school and thus competent.
 
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Another release without Gimpel's signature on it.

football video GIF
 
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AnatomyGrey12 said:
1. You are not the only person in this thread who personally knows multiple practicing PTs and has had discussions about this with them. Their day to day is significantly different from what happens in OMM clinic. Trust me. I did an entire rotation of purely OMM clinic.

2. OMM doesn’t even have outcomes studies. That’s our point. OMM has nothing but garbage research with low N values, heavy risks of bias, conflicts of interest, and poor study design.

3. there is not “WAY more” people that utilize OMM. OMM use is declining amongst practicing osteopathic physicians. Osteopathic manipulative treatment (OMT) use among osteopathic physicians in the United States | The Journal of the American Osteopathic Association
*and their survey response rate was poor likely skewed towards people more likely to use OMM. The true rate is likely even lower.
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I think I’ve used OMM like 3 times as an attending. All 3 times to appease someone asking for Narcotics for their muscle spasm.
 
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TXKnight said:
well the update is up. Of note: "As we move forward expeditiously with this important work, remember that our first and most acute objective is to establish defensible pathway(s) for verification of clinical skills competencies in the licensure pathway for the Class of 2021 (and earlier), which will be announced no later than March 11, 2021. This will NOT require that students travel to a center to test, nor will it include any fees for these candidates"
IMO verification = school verifies

COMLEX USA Level 2-PE — NBOME

www.nbome.org www.nbome.org
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They should just be lumping 2021 and 2022 together at this point. No reason to have 2 separate pathways.
 
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fldoctorgirl said:
They should just be lumping 2021 and 2022 together at this point. No reason to have 2 separate pathways.
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They probably won't have two separate things IMO. That's a lot of work and that goes against the nature of bureaucrats: do whatever requires the least work.
 
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fldoctorgirl said:
They should just be lumping 2021 and 2022 together at this point. No reason to have 2 separate pathways.
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Unfortunately I think not lumping 2022 with 2021 gives them a whole year and another opportunity to squeeze more money out of 2022.
 
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Just got my refund email and its already pending on my bank account!
Had an April 2021 date.
 
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Any updates on refunds? I had an April date and still have not received mine....
 
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So dumb question, but how does getting a refund to a credit card work? Will I just receive a 1200 dollar credit on my next statement? I bought and paid for this exam a while ago
 
I'm trying to find a reason why the NBOME wouldn't just allow the the class of 2022 show their "PE proficiency" in the same way the class of 2021 will...
 
lancefielder said:
I'm trying to find a reason why the NBOME wouldn't just allow the the class of 2022 show their "PE proficiency" in the same way the class of 2021 will...
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$. They have more time to come up with some kinda bs for 2022
 
Noisewater-TDX said:
No Gimple signature in site.
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Because he didn't write it. If you go read the announcements he wrote and compare them to the last 2-3 announcements, it's pretty obvious they now have someone else writing the announcements.
 
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Looking forward to getting my money back. I thought it would take awhile since I rescheduled to a later date, glad to hear they should be done soon.
 
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AnatomyGrey12 said:
Because he didn't write it. If you go read the announcements he wrote and compare them to the last 2-3 announcements, it's pretty obvious they now have someone else writing the announcements.
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Absolutely this, he must be hating every minute of it. I'm sure his arm had to be twisted by several powerful orgs and reality in order to suspend the test. If given a chance I have no doubt he would reinstate PE in a heartbeat
 
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TXKnight said:
Absolutely this, he must be hating every minute of it. I'm sure his arm had to be twisted by several powerful orgs and reality in order to suspend the test. If given a chance I have no doubt he would reinstate PE in a heartbeat
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herd immunity is here in 6-12 months. Gimple will reinstate Comlex Ultra PE at 2.5K/pop to account for lost revenue and inflation.

Daddy Gimple has bills to pay and little mouths to feed at home.
 
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CocoMelon0531 said:
herd immunity is here in 6-12 months. Gimple will reinstate Comlex Ultra PE at 2.5K/pop to account for lost revenue and inflation.

Daddy Gimple has bills to pay and little mouths to feed at home.
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$2.5k - 12 OSCEs + an obstacle course + an oral OMM board in Mayan.
 
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Normally, the herd immunity deal would probably bring back the PE. But the USMLE ending their Step 2 CS is a huuuuge knock on having this PE ever again ——— as long as the NBME never returns CS in any format.
 
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Throwaway74782 said:
Normally, the herd immunity deal would probably bring back the PE. But the USMLE ending their Step 2 CS is a huuuuge knock on having this PE ever again ——— as long as the NBME never returns CS in any format.
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The Resident Clinical Competency from NBME is being assembled, and ready to roll out in 12 months. NBOME will follow suit. They’re already giving out $200 per pop for residents to try out their beta version.
 
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CocoMelon0531 said:
The Resident Clinical Competency from NBME is being assembled, and ready to roll out in 12 months. NBOME will follow suit. They’re already giving out $200 per pop for residents to try out their beta version.
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But in 12 months we will be almost second year residents having taken care of hundreds and hundreds of people...... I may actually have a conniption
 
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I would sign up for Level 3 and get it out of the way by Xmas at the latest. Don’t underestimate them. Can’t force you to take PE when you already pass Level 3.
 
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CocoMelon0531 said:
The Resident Clinical Competency from NBME is being assembled, and ready to roll out in 12 months. NBOME will follow suit. They’re already giving out $200 per pop for residents to try out their beta version.
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Source? And how can you possibly know that it’s going to be out in 12 months?
 
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