Addressing PE

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Alkaidius said:
Considering their positions this entire pandemic have been moving at a glacial pace, assuming they make a compromise, I think cancelling for just a single class will likely be it. I haven't looked into the whole process of editing licensing requirements, but I'll bet it's easier for states to just wave a requirement for one year due to "unprecedented times" than to rewrite it entirely. Unfortunately, it'd be a pretty powerful check in favor of keeping the status-quo. Personally, I haven't seen nearly as many 3rd years as 4th years complaining because it just hasn't begun to affect them yet and they're drowning in board prep. Thousands of students would shut up because they'd be satisfied. The PE will definitely die eventually, but they could get a few more bucks for retirement before it does.
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Luckily, it is not states that require COMLEX PE as an exam. They generally just require completion of the full COMLEX series (or USMLE series in most states), but it is up to the NBOME/NBME to decide what that series entails. Thats why the NBME was able to cancel USMLE CS without any additional legislation, and it's why it should only take the NBOME to cancel the PE to get rid of the exam as a requirement.
 
Alkaidius said:
Considering their positions this entire pandemic have been moving at a glacial pace, assuming they make a compromise, I think cancelling for just a single class will likely be it. I haven't looked into the whole process of editing licensing requirements, but I'll bet it's easier for states to just wave a requirement for one year due to "unprecedented times" than to rewrite it entirely. Unfortunately, it'd be a pretty powerful check in favor of keeping the status-quo. Personally, I haven't seen nearly as many 3rd years as 4th years complaining because it just hasn't begun to affect them yet and they're drowning in board prep. Thousands of students would shut up because they'd be satisfied. The PE will definitely die eventually, but they could get a few more bucks for retirement before it does.
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I disagree, everyone including 3rd years have been complaining about this, the PE is dead once it’s cancelled for CO 2021, if it’s unsafe/unnecessary for them, then it’s definitely the same for any subsequent class, there’s no real guarantee that they can even test everyone in class of 2022 especially if the pandemic isn’t over by next fall and cases start going back up again..
 
0100010001001111 said:
Luckily, it is not states that require COMLEX PE as an exam. They generally just require completion of the full COMLEX series (or USMLE series in most states), but it is up to the NBOME/NBME to decide what that series entails. Thats why the NBME was able to cancel USMLE CS without any additional legislation, and it's why it should only take the NBOME to cancel the PE to get rid of the exam as a requirement.
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Right that’s an easy fix for licensing, nbome just removes PE in the series, but for removing it for one class(CO of 2021) and keeping it for all others will no doubt create a headache for nbome, like how do the states regulate something like this? It would be soo silly, it would have to rewrite rules and exclude thousands of residents from the PE requirement, hence the CS was permanently cancelled as the nbme knew they couldn’t cancel for one class but try to bring it back for future classes...
 
msnbc2020 said:
This is not correct. The NBOME has not removed PE for class of 2021 to get a license, it has only been removed as a requirement for graduation. PE is still required by NBOME to take Level 3. The state boards look at completing level 3 as completing the series. That is one reason that even though PE was the 4th test to put in place, it was not named Level 4.
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Never said it was, I was saying if it was to be cancelled that’s what the nbome would do****
 
fldoctorgirl said:
This would be HUGE. And honestly, wouldn't be super surprising in a way. Nobody at my school gives any value to the PE. We are literally taught that "this is the way you do it for the PE, and then this is the way you do it in real life". Nearly every post-SP debrief, the doc has expressed how insane it is that we have to do this in 14/9 minutes. They almost always say they couldn't do it and it's completely unrealistic. Imagine how much better our clinical training could be if we could be taught real medicine instead of being taught how to pass the PE.
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I tell you a joke at my school about the SPE. One case I got last year was an old man who came into a family med clinic complained he had a headache almost passed out, rated the pain 10/10 super high fever, blurred vision. but I had to ask questions about his family relationship religious belief and also did the osteopathic diagnosis. during the debrief I asked him how this could make any sense. if this was real that patient got to be sent to ER ASAP, he told me he neither understood it too
 
Chicken Bone said:
I tell you a joke at my school about the SPE. One case I got last year was an old man who came into a family med clinic complained he had a headache almost passed out, rated the pain 10/10 super high fever, blurred vision. but I had to ask questions about his family relationship religious belief and also did the osteopathic diagnosis. during the debrief I asked him how this could make any sense. if this was real that patient got to be sent to ER ASAP, he told me he neither understood it too
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Exactly like the patient has an MI but we got ask about if they eat healthy and exercise or not lol
 
My guess is that they are going to remove the requirement for the class of 2021 to get people off their backs. I don’t think it will work but that’s what I think is most likely, I just can’t see them getting rid of the PE all together with how hell bent Gimpel is on having it. If the class of 2021 doesn’t get it saved for level 3 then I imagine they make some sort of modification to the PE. They have to do something because of how much heat they are taking for it but with how stubborn Gimpel is about the PE I just can’t foresee it going away all together like the CS.
 
BatmanDO9 said:
My guess is that they are going to remove the requirement for the class of 2021 to get people off their backs. I don’t think it will work but that’s what I think is most likely, I just can’t see them getting rid of the PE all together with how hell bent Gimpel is on having it. If the class of 2021 doesn’t get it saved for level 3 then I imagine they make some sort of modification to the PE. They have to do something because of how much heat they are taking for it but with how stubborn Gimpel is about the PE I just can’t foresee it going away all together like the CS.
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My opinion is it's all or nothing. I don't foresee them being able to waive it for just the class of 2021. Either we all have to take it or it's gone forever. Unfortunately, I think the announcement will be something along the lines of "Our new testing site is now open! Look how amazing we are and how many open spots are available for registration! We are doing so much good for students and most importantly we are PROTECTING THE PUBLIC!" I mean did no one notice the bold and underlined phrase in the last announcement: IN NO WAY COMPROMISE. These F*****S are not backing down and neither should we. I sincerely hope I am wrong but the NBOME deserves no confidence that they are capable of doing the right thing.
 
12jas said:
My opinion is it's all or nothing. I don't foresee them being able to waive it for just the class of 2021. Either we all have to take it or it's gone forever. Unfortunately, I think the announcement will be something along the lines of "Our new testing site is now open! Look how amazing we are and how many open spots are available for registration! We are doing so much good for students and most importantly we are PROTECTING THE PUBLIC!" I mean did no one notice the bold and underlined phrase in the last announcement: IN NO WAY COMPROMISE. These F*****S are not backing down and neither should we. I sincerely hope I am wrong but the NBOME deserves no confidence that they are capable of doing the right thing.
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Yep.

Good thing my top 11 ranks are in places I can use Step. Once I graduate the AOA and NBOME can get bent.
 
12jas said:
My opinion is it's all or nothing. I don't foresee them being able to waive it for just the class of 2021. Either we all have to take it or it's gone forever. Unfortunately, I think the announcement will be something along the lines of "Our new testing site is now open! Look how amazing we are and how many open spots are available for registration! We are doing so much good for students and most importantly we are PROTECTING THE PUBLIC!" I mean did no one notice the bold and underlined phrase in the last announcement: IN NO WAY COMPROMISE. These F*****S are not backing down and neither should we. I sincerely hope I am wrong but the NBOME deserves no confidence that they are capable of doing the right thing.
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They will absolutely double down on the test. They will have a series of “Town Halls” or some garbage, making it appear like they are listening. If you haven’t already wrote a letter to your state osteopathic group about this - what are you waiting for?
 
As the NBOME does its virtual meetings with each school, has anyone noticed any changes? Did they talk about PE at all of them so far or have they started avoiding PE talk since the days surrounding the recent weird announcement? I know previous posts mention them addressing it. Has anyone had one last week or this week at their school?

Anyone notice a change?
 
BatmanDO9 said:
My guess is that they are going to remove the requirement for the class of 2021 to get people off their backs.
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Idk how they would do that. They are adamant that they are worried about state boards. They are worried about us because of wording. Idk how they would add "except class of 2021" into the verbage of state laws.
 
getfat said:
Idk how they would do that. They are adamant that they are worried about state boards. They are worried about us because of wording. Idk how they would add "except class of 2021" into the verbage of state laws.
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I'll bet there's some clauses. Remember how certain states authorized a bunch of healthcare practitioner's whose licenses expired to help with the COVID relief effort? It's not like we'd just be a handful of people, it's literally 5,000+ otherwise perfectly qualified doctors that would be lost. Especially once the REAL powers-that-be that govern the medical world decide to stop sitting on their hands and begin to bully lawmakers. They'd have 3 years minimum to get it done, should be enough.
 
getfat said:
Idk how they would do that. They are adamant that they are worried about state boards. They are worried about us because of wording. Idk how they would add "except class of 2021" into the verbage of state laws.
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Alkaidius said:
I'll bet there's some clauses. Remember how certain states authorized a bunch of healthcare practitioner's whose licenses expired to help with the COVID relief effort? It's not like we'd just be a handful of people, it's literally 5,000+ otherwise perfectly qualified doctors that would be lost. Especially once the REAL powers-that-be that govern the medical world decide to stop sitting on their hands and begin to bully lawmakers. They'd have 3 years minimum to get it done, should be enough.
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These state boards are beholden to no one. The law establishes the board, but during the license approval process they reserve the right to approve or deny any applicant at their discretion. They could easily allow some weird exception for class of 2021.
 
Alkaidius said:
I'll bet there's some clauses. Remember how certain states authorized a bunch of healthcare practitioner's whose licenses expired to help with the COVID relief effort? It's not like we'd just be a handful of people, it's literally 5,000+ otherwise perfectly qualified doctors that would be lost. Especially once the REAL powers-that-be that govern the medical world decide to stop sitting on their hands and begin to bully lawmakers. They'd have 3 years minimum to get it done, should be enough.
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cbc86 said:
These state boards are beholden to no one. The law establishes the board, but during the license approval process they reserve the right to approve or deny any applicant at their discretion. They could easily allow some weird exception for class of 2021.
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Both of you make great points. I just don't see these state boards wanting get involved in this. Its a-lot of effort that they don't have to do (so they won't do it). Its much easier to just let NBOME handle it.

NBOME obviously has only two realistic choices at this point 1) abolish the PE or 2) Make us take it intern year before we can sit for Level 3. And make 1st year hell for us (which is the easiest thing to do on their end).

Its obvious the NBOME wants to exhaust every option before they will get rid of this test. They could care less about us (the students) and don't see us as "stake holders".

We just need to hope these stake holders (the actual people making these decisions) realize this isn't the best way to recruit future professionals into the AOA.
 
getfat said:
Both of you make great points. I just don't see these state boards wanting get involved in this. Its a-lot of effort that they don't have to do (so they won't do it). Its much easier to just let NBOME handle it.

NBOME obviously has only two realistic choices at this point 1) abolish the PE or 2) Make us take it intern year before we can sit for Level 3. And make 1st year hell for us (which is the easiest thing to do on their end).

Its obvious the NBOME wants to exhaust every option before they will get rid of this test. They could care less about us (the students) and don't see us as "stake holders".

We just need to hope these stake holders (the actual people making these decisions) realize this isn't the best way to recruit future professionals into the AOA.
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Well, it's their job and the COVID mess warrants it. They're probably going to have to do actual work given that Step 2 CS is being thrown out anyway. But also because this entire situation is a steaming pile of horse manure that is an embarrassment to the medical community as a whole and should be swept under the rug lol. Honestly, I'll bet if NBOME ever actually cared to request that they make a stipulation for just one year (if not permanently), it'd get done given the precedent already set. They're just using the whole "complete licensure" thing as an excuse.
 
Is the only way to get a refund to actually call in to NBOME? Thinking about doing it today
 
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Jackaleauxpe said:
Listen to this podcast with Dr. Carmody. How do we get to work with COCA?

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We don’t. COCA and the NBOME are one in the same in my mind. There is no real student or resident representation with COCA.
 
RadTechKS said:
Had a random thought: what if they announce Thursday that they are decreasing the cost of the test by 1/2 so they can have students see only 6 patients in order to make room for the backlog?
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I mean unless they somehow address their black box occult grading system I could see more people failing because it's 6 SPs lol

If I have to take it, let it be in residency so I can walk in and intro myself as RESIDENT physician (not student doctor).

Cause ma'am/sir you better not fail a resdient. I got bigger fish to worry about it.
 
LendMeYourDeers said:
I mean unless they somehow address their black box occult grading system I could see more people failing because it's 6 SPs lol

If I have to take it, let it be in residency so I can walk in and intro myself as RESIDENT physician (not student doctor).

Cause ma'am/sir you better not fail a resdient. I got bigger fish to worry about it.
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Oh they're gonna fail residents.
 
Allosteopath said:
No thanks, it sounds like you may be even Dr. Gimpel himself.
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Definitely not, can't stand the NBOME and even cancelled my test a couple weeks back. The thought came to my head that maybe that's how they would try to get around the backlog and still "protect the public."
 
RadTechKS said:
Definitely not, can't stand the NBOME and even cancelled my test a couple weeks back. The thought came to my head that maybe that's how they would try to get around the backlog and still "protect the public."
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I've removed all programs in the weird states that require full COMLEX series for licensure from my list to apply to. I am absolutely never going to take Level 3 no matter what happens.
 
I had to move one of my PA programs to #9 🙁 IM applicant. Hope I don’t fall that low
 
Noisewater-TDX said:
Most likely will do the same for us DOs.

RIP class of 2022 and beyond.
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Reward for the Class of 2021 fighting the good fight, especially as guaranteed future physicians.

As for the Class of 2022 and beyond, your azzes are still the NBOME's. It is the way.
 
Prehealth1011 said:
We're much larger in number = more $$$. There's ~600 ish Podiatry students every year. I'm not getting my hopes up just yet
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I mean they kinda shot themselves in the foot with this. The podiatry exam in Pennsylvania is literally in the same building. So golly gee they couldn't find a good way to administer it for them, but we're somehow an exception? I think this should get forwarded to all the Deans.
 
Alkaidius said:
I mean they kinda shot themselves in the foot with this. The podiatry exam in Pennsylvania is literally in the same building. So golly gee they couldn't find a good way to administer it for them, but we're somehow an exception? I think this should get forwarded to all the Deans.
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For real, I don’t see how they could possibly push forward now, at least for the class of 2021, with another organization making this statement that literally uses the same building. I think we have just won

Edit: *violently knocks on nearest wood
 
Alkaidius said:
I mean they kinda shot themselves in the foot with this. The podiatry exam in Pennsylvania is literally in the same building. So golly gee they couldn't find a good way to administer it for them, but we're somehow an exception? I think this should get forwarded to all the Deans.
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Exactly!

New covid strains with a crummy vaccine rollout.
CS cancelled.
Podiatry exam cancelled that used the same building.

Hook. Line. Sinker.



Now watch me be wrong. LOL.
 
Noisewater-TDX said:
Exactly!

New covid strains with a crummy vaccine rollout.
CS cancelled.
Podiatry exam cancelled that used the same building.

Hook. Line. Sinker.



Now watch me be wrong. LOL.
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No, you're right. It's just whether they care enough to lose the money.
 
HarmonicConvergence said:
View attachment 329743

The podiatry version of the exam has been cancelled for the class of 2021. Our version is hosted and ran by the NBOME.
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It looks like they will even reimburse those that already took the exam if I'm reading this correctly. Wow. Hats off to them. That's even better than the NBME response.
 
fldoctorgirl said:
I will be happy for y'all but crying for myself.
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No way they don’t cancel it for class of 22 if they cancel it for 21. “We’re going to forego safety and put out a bunch of unsafe doctors this year” isn’t a great look if they try and stick to the “safety” argument. And if they get rid of 21, it just proves that the test isn’t necessary, at all.
 
CocoMelon0531 said:
Reward for the Class of 2021 fighting the good fight, especially as guaranteed future physicians.

As for the Class of 2022 and beyond, your azzes are still the NBOME's. It is the way.
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if they do cancel only for the class of 2021, please continue to fight for the class of 2022 and beyond!! we all know this is a useless exam that no one needs/wants to take, including Gimple.
 
NBPME announcing cancellation day before NBOME announces so they don’t look like “we” (pods) just follow whatever NBOME does. When in reality the only reason this exam exists for podiatry is because they saw it as a cash grab just like the nbome lol.

In reality the nbome follows whatever the MD’s do and the nbpme follows whatever the nbome does. Should the hierarchy be this way? No. But it is what it is. An early congrats to all the people itt who fought the nbome. It’s inevitable now that the exam is cancelled.

to the class of 2021, MD/DO/DPM, good luck on match and look forward to working with you all in the future. I hope the licensing boards for each profession gets better as time goes on. My suggestion is younger blood on these licensing boards who can empathize with current students. Looking back the delays of this exam was down right pathetic. They have fought for nearly a year now to take all of our money and they should be ashamed.
 
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