Addressing PE

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hawthorn9797 said:
Yeah. I feel like the logistical nightmare of getting all the students placed at far off core rotation sites back to campus for a one day exam would be enough of a headache to prevent this from happening.... also it would disrupt rotations. This is my greatest fear however 😂
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I think they would use whatever OSCEs they already have for current 4th years. Presumably most of you had to take something to be eligible to sit for PE, so I'd imagine they'll use that.
 
getfat said:
Like many of my classmatesI haven't lived near my school for almost 1.5 years now.

Really hoping they don't make us fly back for a day to just take an OSCE.
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Surely that thing we did at the beginning of third year counts so these poor folks don't have to spend a bunch of money coming back to campus.
 
I’m going to state an obvious opinion that I imagine most people on here agree with....it’s so f***ing stupid that we go through two years of clinical rotations with evaluations and that isn’t considered good enough for demonstrating clinical competence
 
BatmanDO9 said:
I’m going to state an obvious opinion that I imagine most people on here agree with....it’s so f***ing stupid that we go through two years of clinical rotations with evaluations and that isn’t considered good enough for demonstrating clinical competence
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That's been my biggest beef with PE the whole time. There is a laundry list of other 100% legitimate grievances against it but the idea that a one day 12 fake patient panel that is absolutely nothing like real life is necessary to judge my clinical competency and safety (what does that even mean in the 2021 healthcare landscape? Wake the **** up Gimpel!) is good old-fashioned vanilla stupidity.

Some DOs are already rightly criticized for being proponents of OMM not just without data but with objectively bad data. We all sat through those lectures where the N=4 dogs and 2 people that were related to the OMM docs to show that some random comically fictitious technique works. I guess none of us should be surprised when these same DOs fail to utilize the analytical skills and basic statistical knowledge they clearly lack to judge the validity of PE.

How many patients do you see throughout school? How many different docs evaluate you? How many real patients evaluate you? How many staff evaluate your professionalism and ethics? The number is massive but we are to believe that the 12 ****ty actors during PE and a random FM doc watching a video of an unrealistic clinic are going to be the judge, jury, and often executioner of your career?! Based purely on numbers alone it makes no sense. 13 evaluators in a single day versus hundreds of evaluators over 2+ years. I know which one would bring up a true bad apple more reliably. Case closed.

OMM in the PE is represented by about 3 people literally begging you to perform any kind of fake 30 second technique on them with findings the student could just make up as it's impossible to verify. This is then judged by an FM doc sellout via video. Compare that to the first two years of OMM practicals and the OMM that is often done on real patients as requested by docs during some rotations. Many schools even have a required OMM rotation, meaning you would be performing OMM on real patients and being evaluated by OMM docs. Once again the scoreboard shows a resounding defeat of PE. 3 random actors in a single day begging you to perform OMM without even requiring evaluation on IF OMM should even be performed and 1 random FM doc watching a video of you and checking a box next to your completely made up tart findings in the note versus 2 years of NMM specialist docs critiquing you in real time and actually checking your diagnosis as well as performing OMM on real people with real back pain during a rotation beyond doing a half-assed lumbar massage and suboccipital release.

Or, you know, the evidence is so great and insurmountable against PE that we must use occam's razor to determine why it did and will continue to exist under a different name despite even laypeople questioning the point of its existence: Money!
 
As much as I hate OMM, without it, there is no such thing as a DO. The day it is gone we might as well merge with the MD degree. I don't see that happening anytime soon.
 
12jas said:
Yeah to provide OMM residency trained grads jobs to perpetuate the stupidity. On a rather somber note, the OMM faculty are the highest-paid clinical faculty at my school. What a joke.
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Wow, that's ridiculous.

I was thinking OMM being an elective for some specialties since the MSK benefits help. But now i don't know what to think.
 
12jas said:
Yeah to provide OMM residency trained grads jobs to perpetuate the stupidity. On a rather somber note, the OMM faculty are the highest-paid clinical faculty at my school. What a joke.
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Schwifty said:
How much are they paid?
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Lawpy said:
Wow, that's ridiculous.

I was thinking OMM being an elective for some specialties since the MSK benefits help. But now i don't know what to think.
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This is true. My school is having trouble recruiting boarded OMM docs so they are offering a good chunk of money per some of the other clinical docs.
 
I have always felt like for some reason OMM gets a pass on actually having data. I don’t know how you guys feel but on some of my OMM exams we would get a ton of questions on cranial bull sh* t and in my mind I ask myself “how do you know this is true? What evidence do you have?” They don’t teach us things from say the renal or cardio (etc) blocks without that information having been backed up by science, research, and data.... and on another point to expound on my earlier comment, I don’t know about you all but sure, I have had some preceptors that if I just show up I get a perfect grade but I have had others that if I wasn’t clinically competent they wouldn’t have passed me on that rotation. I feel like rotations are the best way possible to evaluate clinical competency. It’s a bunch of physicians in your community who evaluate all aspects of your clinical competency over a ton of patient encounters. The NBOME is really going to say that a medical student who successfully completes 20+ rotations doesn’t demonstrate enough clinical competency? Are you kidding me? Having us evaluate 12 fake patients under high pressure environment is better? What a joke
 
BatmanDO9 said:
I have always felt like for some reason OMM gets a pass on actually having data. I don’t know how you guys feel but on some of my OMM exams we would get a ton of questions on cranial bull sh* t and in my mind I ask myself “how do you know this is true? What evidence do you have?” They don’t teach us things from say the renal or cardio (etc) blocks without that information having been backed up by science, research, and data.... and on another point to expound on my earlier comment, I don’t know about you all but sure, I have had some preceptors that if I just show up I get a perfect grade but I have had others that if I wasn’t clinically competent they wouldn’t have passed me on that rotation. I feel like rotations are the best way possible to evaluate clinical competency. It’s a bunch of physicians in your community who evaluate all aspects of your clinical competency over a ton of patient encounters. The NBOME is really going to say that a medical student who successfully completes 20+ rotations doesn’t demonstrate enough clinical competency? Are you kidding me? Having us evaluate 12 fake patients under high pressure environment is better? What a joke
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Be thankful that the Comlex PE has been suspended temporarily for you.

Your criticism is unwarranted and approaching unprofessionalism.

Respectfully,
John Gimpel
 
I find it very interesting how on every COMLEX PE update email that the NBOME has sent out it always ends with Gimpel putting his name to it but on the email cancelling the PE we find no such ending.... makes me wonder if somehow he got overruled? There has to be some sort of mechanism of checks and balances of power where the president/CEO of the NBOME (or COCA, or AOA, etc) can be overruled by the rest of the board. I am purely speculating here but with how hell bent Gimpel has been on keeping the PE despite massive public backlash and the logistical nightmare that the pandemic created along with the fact that this was the one email update he didn’t put his name on makes me think he wasn’t onboard with the decision to cancel the PE. I’m guessing when the board met last week they took some sort of vote and Gimpel was outnumbered and now he won’t put his name on the email because he got his precious little feeling hurt because they are canceling the biggest (garbage) contribution he has made in his career.
 
BatmanDO9 said:
I find it very interesting how on every COMLEX PE update email that the NBOME has sent out it always ends with Gimpel putting his name to it but on the email cancelling the PE we find no such ending.... makes me wonder if somehow he got overruled? There has to be some sort of mechanism of checks and balances of power where the president/CEO of the NBOME (or COCA, or AOA, etc) can be overruled by the rest of the board. I am purely speculating here but with how hell bent Gimpel has been on keeping the PE despite massive public backlash and the logistical nightmare that the pandemic created along with the fact that this was the one email update he didn’t put his name on makes me think he wasn’t onboard with the decision to cancel the PE. I’m guessing when the board met last week they took some sort of vote and Gimpel was outnumbered and now he won’t put his name on the email because he got his precious little feeling hurt because they are canceling the biggest (garbage) contribution he has made in his career.
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Typically that's how a board is supposed to work. They vote on adopting or not adopting certain decisions, guidelines, regulations etc.
 
fldoctorgirl said:
Hot off the press from our weekly dean's report: "The COMLEX Level 2 PE has been indefinitely suspended, however we are being asked to evaluate competency prior to graduation."
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About f'ing time!!!!!

I'll bet Gimpel fought tooth and nail against this. He articulated the tired old "we're special and different" line to us as the rationale for keeping PE.

He sure hates SDN too. So keep up the fire, and keep it hot, kids! You do get listened to.
 
Goro said:
About f'ing time!!!!!

I'll bet Gimpel fought tooth and nail against this. He articulated the tired old "we're special and different" line to us as the rationale for keeping PE.

He sure hates SDN too. So keep up the fire, and keep it hot, kids! You do get listened to.
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He called out SDN specifically at my school lol.
 
I took the new announcement as code for “we are going to find someway to make sure you can do OMM and we keep OMM a defining principle of osteopathic medicine” ..... nevermind that statistically speaking most of us (DO students) will never use OMM in practice. Why the hell does someone who is going into something like radiology need to pass off their OMM? They should teach it in the first couple years of Med school and If students decide that’s what they want to peruse then make those people do more OMM. I want to go into cards and I don’t understand how making me pass off OMM is productive? To use an analogy I feel like the “old guard” of the osteopathic community views OMM as like the requirement that you have to whack someone in order to become a made man in the mafia.
 
BatmanDO9 said:
I took the new announcement as code for “we are going to find someway to make sure you can do OMM and we keep OMM a defining principle of osteopathic medicine” ..... nevermind that statistically speaking most of us (DO students) will never use OMM in practice. Why the hell does someone who is going into something like radiology need to pass off their OMM? They should teach it in the first couple years of Med school and If students decide that’s what they want to peruse then make those people do more OMM. I want to go into cards and I don’t understand how making me pass off OMM is productive? To use an analogy I feel like the “old guard” of the osteopathic community views OMM as like the requirement that you have to whack someone in order to become a made man in the mafia.
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cbc86 said:
Just want to say it again - OMM, while it has its “uses”, can’t remain the defining element of the DO curriculum and will ultimately have to go.
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Ive always said it. I wish OMM was an elective after 1st year. 2nd year you could do OMM 201/202, or Research 201/202, or Anatomy Lab Assistant 201/202, Community Outreach/Rural Med 201/202.

It'd add some flavor and flexibility to med school.
 
They fail to see, once again, that their old guard group is the last significant group of DOs who view themselves as somehow separate from the greater medical community.

They are all fighting to keep themselves relevant, even as the writing is on the wall. OMM is all they have left.
 
We also stand united in the need for assessment of the unique aspects of osteopathic medical practice within the undergraduate medical education curriculum leading to the DO degree, as an important part of the eventual pathway leading to licensure.

I'm (edit: thinking, not hoping...of course I don't hope the classes beyond 2021 get shafted) this quote means they're not going after the c/o 2021 but may choose to try an assess those who are still undergraduates: the c/o 2022 or beyond. If the pandemic isn't under control by the end of this year, 2022 may also get a free pass.
 
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CanISleepYet? said:
Interesting.

osteopathic.org

Joint statement from AACOM, AOA, NBOME: Support of suspension of COMLEX-USA Level 2-PE and continued osteopathic assessment

PHILADELPHIA, PA —The American Association of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine (AACOM), American Osteopathic Association (AOA) with support from the Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation (COCA), and the National Board of Osteopathic Medical Examiners (NBOME) have been working together...
osteopathic.org osteopathic.org
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Scroll up, bruh.
 
BatmanDO9 said:
I took the new announcement as code for “we are going to find someway to make sure you can do OMM and we keep OMM a defining principle of osteopathic medicine” ..... nevermind that statistically speaking most of us (DO students) will never use OMM in practice. Why the hell does someone who is going into something like radiology need to pass off their OMM? They should teach it in the first couple years of Med school and If students decide that’s what they want to peruse then make those people do more OMM. I want to go into cards and I don’t understand how making me pass off OMM is productive? To use an analogy I feel like the “old guard” of the osteopathic community views OMM as like the requirement that you have to whack someone in order to become a made man in the mafia.
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If you go into cards and don't pedal pump every CHF patient you have, the wrath of AT Still will forever haunt you !
 
Honestly, they haven’t committed to anything in the future. They are literally waiting to see if the NBME permanently disbands the Step 2 CS or brings some virtual assessment alternative they are trying to test right now. That’s the whole point of all of this commission nonsense.
The Old Guard realizes that letting the class of 2021 getting a “temporary pathway” which could potentially mean a simple checkoff by your school, is devastating to the impetus of the exam. The exam is a feigned clinical test with a real purpose of cash extraction.
They want 1) Money and 2) a reason for osteopathic medicine to exist so they continue to expand and make money.
 
CocoMelon0531 said:
AT Still is already disappointed in your OMM skills. Must perform thoracic inlet release first.
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Pretty sure lymphatics are contraindicated in CHF for fear of overloading the already overworked heart.

AT Still is disappointed in both of you.
#TrueBeliever #gillsNOTsutures #Chapstick'sPoints #ViscousEarlSchematics
 
I hate the NBOME as much as the next guy.... but there's a reason why the ACGME got fully on board with OMM to the point of establishing a 3-year residency dedicated solely to it.

Because it's legit.

Sure, cranial and Chapman's points are obviously dumb AF but the ACGME aren't a bunch of quacks that would take something entirely useless and create a residency around it. Follow any DO sports med doc, PM&R doc, FM doc and see how OMM can be used to seriously aid in patient care and MSK issues. The idea that DO schools should ditch it entirely is ridiculous.

I've met SO many MD residents at OMM-heavy FM programs that talk about how they wish their curriculum included its use in med school. I know the frustration that DO students have to deal with due to "the old guard", but don't let that knock the entirety of a very legitimate treatment for patients out there IRL.
 
Jack Donaghy said:
I hate the NBOME as much as the next guy.... but there's a reason why the ACGME got fully on board with OMM to the point of establishing a 3-year residency dedicated solely to it.

Because it's legit.

Sure, cranial and Chapman's points are obviously dumb AF but the ACGME aren't a bunch of quacks that would take something entirely useless and create a residency around it. Follow any DO sports med doc, PM&R doc, FM doc and see how OMM can be used to seriously aid in patient care and MSK issues. The idea that DO schools should ditch it entirely is ridiculous.

I've met SO many MD residents at OMM-heavy FM programs that talk about how they wish their curriculum included its use in med school. I know the frustration that DO students have to deal with due to "the old guard", but don't let that knock the entirety of a very legitimate treatment for patients out there IRL.
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Very simple. If it’s legitimate then prove it.

ACGME gave them a peace offering.
 
Jack Donaghy said:
I hate the NBOME as much as the next guy.... but there's a reason why the ACGME got fully on board with OMM to the point of establishing a 3-year residency dedicated solely to it.

Because it's legit.

Sure, cranial and Chapman's points are obviously dumb AF but the ACGME aren't a bunch of quacks that would take something entirely useless and create a residency around it. Follow any DO sports med doc, PM&R doc, FM doc and see how OMM can be used to seriously aid in patient care and MSK issues. The idea that DO schools should ditch it entirely is ridiculous.

I've met SO many MD residents at OMM-heavy FM programs that talk about how they wish their curriculum included its use in med school. I know the frustration that DO students have to deal with due to "the old guard", but don't let that knock the entirety of a very legitimate treatment for patients out there IRL.
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yes and a cholecystectomy is legit but I won't be performing that either (for a board exam OR in life)
 
Jack Donaghy said:
I hate the NBOME as much as the next guy.... but there's a reason why the ACGME got fully on board with OMM to the point of establishing a 3-year residency dedicated solely to it.

Because it's legit.

Sure, cranial and Chapman's points are obviously dumb AF but the ACGME aren't a bunch of quacks that would take something entirely useless and create a residency around it. Follow any DO sports med doc, PM&R doc, FM doc and see how OMM can be used to seriously aid in patient care and MSK issues. The idea that DO schools should ditch it entirely is ridiculous.

I've met SO many MD residents at OMM-heavy FM programs that talk about how they wish their curriculum included its use in med school. I know the frustration that DO students have to deal with due to "the old guard", but don't let that knock the entirety of a very legitimate treatment for patients out there IRL.
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I’m not going to waste much energy on this, but the logic of this argument is indeed ridiculous. Legitimate medicine is backed by high quality, objective evidence. I could easily find a horde of people on social media that believe Chiropractic, Magnetic Healing, and Chakra Field Therapy are incredibly effective and have relieved a great deal of suffering. Does that mean that an entire medical degree should be centered on these practices? Or perhaps we should integrate them into the DO curriculum? Shouldn’t medicine do it’s best to remain a place of evidence based therapies and reject ideas like “somatic dysfunctions” and other remnants of 1800s quakery?
 
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