Alabama Schools Thread

[odrade1]

Advertisement - Members don't see this ad

Yeah, I'm downtown on the northside. Second Avenue North, to be exact.

So I don't need to be afraid of all ya'll crazy Southeners? 😉

No, you don't need to be afraid. Southern craziness is half cultivated excentricities. However, if you are ever drinking at a party and someone decides to bring out their gun collection, it may be a good time to leave.

 

[odrade1]

has anybody been placed on the waitlist?

I have two friends who were waitlisted last week.

 

[jammin06]

man, i leave the forum for a couple of weeks and it's already up to 32 pages...mad props to everyone for keeping this thread alive.

I was wondering if anyone could offer some input about the wireless network in volker? It's been about 6 years since my last computer, so I'm gonna try and get something a bit nicer for med school. In addition to a laptop, I was thinking about looking into a Palm, in particular the Palm TX (it was recommended in the tech forum) because of its bluetooth and wifi, but i want ot make sure that i'd be able to use it somewhere aside from the wireless network in my house. Thanks guys.

fyi, i'm totally game for a SDN@UAB shindig. Maybe we can do it during hte end of May or early June (so i can be back in bham 🙂), like a bbq or something? Just a thought. Good luck to everyone who's still waiting to hear.

 

[1/2asser]

has anybody been placed on the waitlist?

yep. me! the email didn't sound very enthusiastic about my chances but i'm not worried, i had planned on defering if i was accepted.....hello buenos aires!

 

[speciled15]

where were you on the waitlist?

 

[BlazerMed]

I'll see you all of you at the end of July.

As far as being afraid of Southerners... I don't know about Birmingham, but field parties are huge down in Mobile... those I would be wary of.

 

[odrade1]

man, i leave the forum for a couple of weeks and it's already up to 32 pages...mad props to everyone for keeping this thread alive.

I was wondering if anyone could offer some input about the wireless network in volker? It's been about 6 years since my last computer, so I'm gonna try and get something a bit nicer for med school. In addition to a laptop, I was thinking about looking into a Palm, in particular the Palm TX (it was recommended in the tech forum) because of its bluetooth and wifi, but i want ot make sure that i'd be able to use it somewhere aside from the wireless network in my house. Thanks guys.

fyi, i'm totally game for a SDN@UAB shindig. Maybe we can do it during hte end of May or early June (so i can be back in bham 🙂), like a bbq or something? Just a thought. Good luck to everyone who's still waiting to hear.

I too will be buying a new laptop (mine is 4-5 yrs old) once school starts, or shortly thereafter. Mine still works if you plug it into the wall, but a new battery is 300 plus shipping, so I will take some of my loan money for a computer. You can check out uab's tech site (just off the main uab.edu website) to find out the specs for the university's wireless network. I heard that volker had a lot of dead spots in the network coverage, but every month the university expands the wireless coverage across campus, so I bet it won't be a problem when we attend.

Put a note up on the All students board at uasom's site if you want to get reccomendations from current students about palms, etc. Odds are I'll wait till the beginning of third year to get the palm. I had one in undergrad and only found it helpful when I was scheduling research subjects or when my schedule changed frequently. Of course, new palm-pcs are much more interesting & have better features...

We could have several SDN events, as long as you people don't suck. I reccomend la cantina (in pepper place); the food is cheap & of good quality, plus they have a bar, and a huge patio. The area is trendy but this particular place isn't too pretentious. Also, it is in close proximity (4-8 blocks) to a number of other bars, etc.

The SDNers definitely need to get together before orientation. It would make orientation more pleasant to know a few more people.

 

[BlazerMed]

All-night cram sessions can be had at Al's, open 24 hours.

 

[QofQuimica]

All-night cram sessions can be had at Al's, open 24 hours.

Al's is awesome. 👍 I used to go there all the time.

 

[odrade1]

All-night cram sessions can be had at Al's, open 24 hours.

Yup. I used to live two blocks from there (behind the southside post office), and would walk to Als or purple onion late night (or whatever they're calling it this year) after work & study till 3 or 4. The virtue of the late night cafe was that they have a liquor licence from time to time. You used to be able to get locally brewed beer by the pitcher for good prices.

Of course this was before I settled down & became an old man....

 

[Shades McCool]

Well to be honest, with the advent of new Volker Hall, there is no need to study at Al's or the Purple Onion. We usually go there to take study breaks to go get some food. The wireless network is just fine in Volker. The classrooms have access and so do both of the student floors (5th Floor rules!).

The few nights before tests many people end up just bringing a toothbrush and sleeping at Volker. I will stay late and then just go home since it is only one minute down the road.

Newsflash.....the admin is currently thinking about changing the grading system to a straight up P/F system for all four years. No more P1's!

 

[odrade1]

Well to be honest, with the advent of new Volker Hall, there is no need to study at Al's or the Purple Onion. We usually go there to take study breaks to go get some food. The wireless network is just fine in Volker. The classrooms have access and so do both of the student floors (5th Floor rules!).

The few nights before tests many people end up just bringing a toothbrush and sleeping at Volker. I will stay late and then just go home since it is only one minute down the road.

Newsflash.....the admin is currently thinking about changing the grading system to a straight up P/F system for all four years. No more P1's!

I read in the acceditation (spelling error I think) report written by the students that there was a ton of criticism for the current system of grading. Students seemed to want to go back to A B C.... Actually, I would be a little pissed if it was p/f. I know it may make me sound like a bit of an ass, but I really like the competition. I have friends who graduated whose mantra was C = MD. The idea that some lazy fool gets the same grades I do is totally unacceptable. At least identify who the bottom fourth of the class is! Sheesh!

 

[BlazerMed]

Everybody has an Al's story, here's mine:

So my freshman year, there was a fascination with pulling the fire alarm in the dorm. One night was particularly bad, by the time all was said and done, it was pulled three times in the span of about 5 or 6 hours. After the second time, I started saying I was going to Al's if it got pulled again. I think I had about 6 or 7 people saying they would go with me if by some chance there was an idiot stupid enough to pull it a third time. Of course there was! And of course, they all copped out, except for one of the RAs, that figured since it was after 3am, no point in going back to sleep.

Shades: When are they looking at starting straight P/F?

 

[BlazerMed]

I read in the acceditation (spelling error I think) report written by the students that there was a ton of criticism for the current system of grading. Students seemed to want to go back to A B C.... Actually, I would be a little pissed if it was p/f. I know it may make me sound like a bit of an ass, but I really like the competition. I have friends who graduated whose mantra was C = MD. The idea that some lazy fool gets the same grades I do is totally unacceptable. At least identify who the bottom fourth of the class is! Sheesh!

I wouldn't want straight P/F, but I think breaking it up by percentage is a little rough. Do Honors, High Pass and Pass, but set a scale for each test/course based on historical performance.

 

[Shades McCool]

I wouldn't want straight P/F, but I think breaking it up by percentage is a little rough. Do Honors, High Pass and Pass, but set a scale for each test/course based on historical performance.

It would be in effect starting next year.

Their reasoning behind this P1 system is that it makes residency director's lives easier. Instead of trying to figure out how much an A in a class is worth by figuring out the class average and all, they can just see which quartile you were in. Also, it lets the people in the bottom quartile P4 know that they have work to do.

If you went to a High Pass, bla bla system, they say that is just about the same as the current system.

 

[QofQuimica]

Everybody has an Al's story, here's mine:

So my freshman year, there was a fascination with pulling the fire alarm in the dorm. One night was particularly bad, by the time all was said and done, it was pulled three times in the span of about 5 or 6 hours. After the second time, I started saying I was going to Al's if it got pulled again. I think I had about 6 or 7 people saying they would go with me if by some chance there was an idiot stupid enough to pull it a third time. Of course there was! And of course, they all copped out, except for one of the RAs, that figured since it was after 3am, no point in going back to sleep.

Shades: When are they looking at starting straight P/F?

I don't think I have an Al's story. I never lived on campus. But when I was a student, there was one summer where some kid used to come through our building and pull the fire alarm like every day. Sometimes it was twice or even three times. It took them a few weeks to catch him in the act, but man, it sure was annoying. And you can't not leave the bldg, because if it's a real fire, boy, you really don't want to be in the lab. 😀

Edit: I like strict P/F. If they can do it at the top ten schools, they can do it at UAB too.

 

[odrade1]

I wouldn't want straight P/F, but I think breaking it up by percentage is a little rough. Do Honors, High Pass and Pass, but set a scale for each test/course based on historical performance.

That sounds reasonable.
However, it resembles the old A B C D/F way of doing things. Of course, it would be different if they cut the grades differently than the old 90-100 = a 80-89 = b, etc..
high pass = 85 to 93?
honors = 94+?
has anyone heard of how grades would be cut under such a system?

of course you know that harvard does p/f, so if it's good enough for harvard it should be good enough for us.

From the school's standpoint, p/f means that students can put enough effort to pass their courses, then redirect the energies formerly used getting an A rather than a C into studying for the boards. If this is how it would work, maybe it's not such a bad thing.
Especially if half the basic science teachers are as off focus as the students' accreditation report suggested. We could study clinically relevent facts instead of obscure details pertaining to the professor's line of research.

 

[Shades McCool]

Ok Ill give an example of how the cut-off for the P1 system worked out in medical genetics:

91 and above P1
85-90 P2/P3
84 and below P4

Class average: 87

Not too much room for error. That scares a lot of people and ups stress while it doesn't bother others.

 

[odrade1]

Ok Ill give an example of how the cut-off for the P1 system worked out in medical genetics:

91 and above P1
85-90 P2/P3
84 and below P4

Class average: 87

Not too much room for error. That scares a lot of people and ups stress while it doesn't bother others.

I bet people were totally crazy about noodling for points after exams! Missing a couple of questions never hurt so bad! I feel sorry for the professors who have to deal with the students bitching about how fairly the questions were worded, etc.
My partner's dental school experience at uab was hyper-competitive (his class was the one that was 1st in the nation on boards), and if they had been graded like that, there probably would have been deaths involved .

 

[Shades McCool]

I bet people were totally crazy about noodling for points after exams! Missing a couple of questions never hurt so bad! I feel sorry for the professors who have to deal with the students bitching about how fairly the questions were worded, etc.
My partner's dental school experience at uab was hyper-competitive (his class was the one that was 1st in the nation on boards), and if they had been graded like that, there probably would have been deaths involved .

You wouldn'y believe the post-test reviews. They almost turn into brawls. The last one we had ended up in students yelling at each other. I never go to them. I just do my best and let the chips fall where they may.

 

[BlazerMed]

I don't really have a personal problem with straight P/F as a non-gunner type, but I think the people that bust their balls to ace the tests deserve a little bit of separation. I just think division by percentage is a poor way of deciding grades. You should be evaluated on your performance, not your performance relative to those around you.

If, historically, everyone scores really well in a certain class, make it harder to Honors or P1 or whatever you want to call it. For another class that is historically harder or lower scoring test, then make the cutoffs for the top level a little more lax.

Obviously there's no perfect way to do it. I'll admit that looking at the performance of previous classes is a poor way to decide cutoffs. I just don't see what's fair about deciding to break it up by quartiles. I don't like the idea that people are graded based on the other people in the class with them. Regardless of how widespread it is, it is going to harbor competition.

 

[MattD]

From what I understand from other schools, the problem (or blessing) with straight P/F is that it's a lie. Under the A B C F system, you have 3 passing grades and one failing. Under P1 etc., you still have 3 passing grades and one failing. All they really do is show what your class rank is. Well, with P/F, sure, people don't KNOW what everyone's class rank is, but does anybody really think that it's not being kept up with somewhere? Your class rank winds up going in your Dean's letter come residency time (right?), so obviously the competition is still there, it's just not talked about......

Or am I a dummy?

 

[Doctor&Geek]

MattD, some schools do have a straight no rank P/F system (Stanford I believe being one), but I think that the ability to do such things is limited to elite schools which can afford not to be able to differentiate by grades by means of their student bodies (as hubristic as that sounds, they can get away with it). In disagreement with the other posters here, I do not think students will study as hard here without a grading system, at least in this curriculum and by the tests I took, which were very much detail-oriented.

UAB's P1, P2/P3, P4 system is no different from honors/pass/borderline/fail system seen at other schools. What really wrings up the competition is the presence of P4, which makes it a struggle for all students to not to end up in the bottom quartile, rather than a struggle for just some students to get the top quartile. If there was just a P1/the rest distinction (honors/pass/fail), I imagine there wouldn't be as much competition.

Again, even under the old A/B/C/D/F system, everybody was still ranked. All residency directors saw how many students scored As vs. Bs, etc. and your total numerical score was automatically converted into quartile rankings which dictate which words they use in the dean's letter. The quartile system is what residency directors wanted - none of the confusing grading systems which make it difficult for them to evaluate us. (EDIT: I'm repeating Shades above. Blah.)

 

[odrade1]

From what I understand from other schools, the problem (or blessing) with straight P/F is that it's a lie. Under the A B C F system, you have 3 passing grades and one failing. Under P1 etc., you still have 3 passing grades and one failing. All they really do is show what your class rank is. Well, with P/F, sure, people don't KNOW what everyone's class rank is, but does anybody really think that it's not being kept up with somewhere? Your class rank winds up going in your Dean's letter come residency time (right?), so obviously the competition is still there, it's just not talked about......

Or am I a dummy?

This is what I was afraid of: secret records. I hope they wouldn't do something like that.

I don't know about med school, but some pass/fail institutions include personalized evaluation letters for each course. I'm not sure how this works (as a matter of practicality) except at a liberal arts college, where faculty/student ratios are small enough.

I have known a few people from Reed college, where they grade you, but won't let you see your grades until you graduate. All of them were eerily cool about the whole situation. I could never understand it.

Schools usually *want* some way of advancing their top students. How to do this when grades are p/f, I don't know. After all, almost all med students pass, so really we'll all have the same report card, quarter after quarter. (unless they keep those secret records you suggest).

Keeping an honors pass option to the p/f would be nice, to distinguish those who want to work krazy hard.

As we discuss this topic, I feel like lisa simpson in that one episode where she misses school (for whatever reason) and starts getting twitchy because no one has given her an A all day long. "Grade me, Rank me, Evaluate me PLEASE!" Her mom says Ok & writes an A on a scrap piece of paper, then hands it to her. Lisa walks away satisfied with her fix.

 

[odrade1]

This is SO off topic now, but the reason I am up at 3 is that I'm about to drive from Birmingham to New Orleans to get my passport, which was royally screwed up by our friendly passport officials in the big easy. It will be a small miracle if I actually make it on my vacation. This act of desparation (driving to NO in the middle of the workweek for an 11:30 appointment with a bureaucrat is because I am leaving the country for a couple of weeks on Friday. How do you spell Arrrrrrrggghh?!

 

[jammin06]

This is SO off topic now, but the reason I am up at 3 is that I'm about to drive from Birmingham to New Orleans to get my passport, which was royally screwed up by our friendly passport officials in the big easy. It will be a small miracle if I actually make it on my vacation. This act of desparation (driving to NO in the middle of the workweek for an 11:30 appointment with a bureaucrat is because I am leaving the country for a couple of weeks on Friday. How do you spell Arrrrrrrggghh?!

Good luck with the drive! Sadly, I'm awake at 6am finishing up a senior presentation that's due in 12 hours, so I feel I can share an inkling of...how do you say it...ah, yes....arrrrrrghhhH!!!

 

[BlazerMed]

This is SO off topic now, but the reason I am up at 3 is that I'm about to drive from Birmingham to New Orleans to get my passport, which was royally screwed up by our friendly passport officials in the big easy. It will be a small miracle if I actually make it on my vacation. This act of desparation (driving to NO in the middle of the workweek for an 11:30 appointment with a bureaucrat is because I am leaving the country for a couple of weeks on Friday. How do you spell Arrrrrrrggghh?!

One less 'r'.

I know the feeling though, about 2 or 3 weeks ago, when the conference basketball tournament was going on, UAB beat UTEP on a Friday night to advance to the conference championship game against Memphis... at 10:30 in the morning. What did I do? Woke up at 4, ate something, got some coffee, drove from B'ham to Memphis (the new I-22 corridor is really nice to have) and arrived around 9:30. Needless to say, I was dozing off on the way back!

 

[Shades McCool]

This is what I was afraid of: secret records. I hope they wouldn't do something like that.

I don't know about med school, but some pass/fail institutions include personalized evaluation letters for each course. I'm not sure how this works (as a matter of practicality) except at a liberal arts college, where faculty/student ratios are small enough.

I have known a few people from Reed college, where they grade you, but won't let you see your grades until you graduate. All of them were eerily cool about the whole situation. I could never understand it.

Schools usually *want* some way of advancing their top students. How to do this when grades are p/f, I don't know. After all, almost all med students pass, so really we'll all have the same report card, quarter after quarter. (unless they keep those secret records you suggest).

Keeping an honors pass option to the p/f would be nice, to distinguish those who want to work krazy hard.

As we discuss this topic, I feel like lisa simpson in that one episode where she misses school (for whatever reason) and starts getting twitchy because no one has given her an A all day long. "Grade me, Rank me, Evaluate me PLEASE!" Her mom says Ok & writes an A on a scrap piece of paper, then hands it to her. Lisa walks away satisfied with her fix.

With this P/F system, they said they would allow some way of knowing how you are doing relative to everyone else in the class. If they did that I don't see anything being different than it is now.

 

[QofQuimica]

I don't know about med school, but some pass/fail institutions include personalized evaluation letters for each course. I'm not sure how this works (as a matter of practicality) except at a liberal arts college, where faculty/student ratios are small enough.

I have known a few people from Reed college, where they grade you, but won't let you see your grades until you graduate. All of them were eerily cool about the whole situation. I could never understand it.

Schools usually *want* some way of advancing their top students. How to do this when grades are p/f, I don't know. After all, almost all med students pass, so really we'll all have the same report card, quarter after quarter. (unless they keep those secret records you suggest).

I went to a college like that: P/F, no grades, no rank, no GPA, no credit hours even. It is called New College, and it was a lot more like a grad school than a typical undergrad experience. Here's the website if anyone wants to read about the specifics of the NC academic program: www.ncf.edu

It works out for a few reasons: One, they try to select students whom they feel will be a good match for the program. The students need to be people who work reasonably independently and who don't rely on extrinisic motivation (like grades!) to goad them into studying. So most of the people who were there were nerds-n-geeks who study because they LIKE studying. The ones who aren't like that either transfer or drop out fairly quickly. Second, there was a lot more mentorship than the usual undergrad student gets. I had a faculty advisor with whom I met once every week or every other week. My profs all knew me, and if I was sick and missed a class, they'd email me or even stop by the dorms to find out where I was. Third, we received narrative evaluations (NEs) from our individual professors. The NEs went into detail (some excruciatingly so) about how well we were doing in the classes. So I know that I was an average student in my linear algebra class, above average in biochemistry, and the top student in my organic class, and my NEs (which I sent copies of to the med schools) say this. We generally did not know where we ranked during the class though. Competition was nonexistent. There were very few pre-meds (more NC grads go for MS or PhDs instead of MDs), but even the ones that were there tended to be fairly human.

So I guess I'm so pro P/F because I've seen it work, and I had a fantastic experience with it. I also had an absolutely horrible experience with competition over grades as a high school student. It was so bad that I honestly believe I might not have completed college had I attended a regular institution and had to endure it all yet again. If the atmosphere is poisonous enough, you reach a point where you are so miserable that you lose out no matter where you end up in the rankings. I look back on those years now and am amazed. At the time, being class valedictorian seemed SO important to all of us. But I can't say that it has made one iota of difference in my life since I left for college.

 

[BooMed]

Wow, you guys have had a really passionate discussion about grades while I was gone...

I guess I don't care how we are graded as long as it's fair. I've never been in a class that was curved before, but it seems really strange to me. Why should only a certain number of people be able to get A's, isn't it possible for everyone to be competent sometimes?

I don't know, the whole grades thing is kind of stupid in my opinion. It often ends up putting much more emphasis on getting a certain score rather than actually learning things. 🙄

 

[Shades McCool]

Oh the class aren't curved. They just break you up on how you do relative to one another.

 

[BooMed]

This is SO off topic now, but the reason I am up at 3 is that I'm about to drive from Birmingham to New Orleans to get my passport, which was royally screwed up by our friendly passport officials in the big easy. It will be a small miracle if I actually make it on my vacation. This act of desparation (driving to NO in the middle of the workweek for an 11:30 appointment with a bureaucrat is because I am leaving the country for a couple of weeks on Friday. How do you spell Arrrrrrrggghh?!

Good luck getting your passport thing sorted out! You need to go on your trip!!!

I feel for you, bureacracy makes me want to kill myself.

 

[Shades McCool]

Latest Physiology breakdown....

P1 92-98
P2/P3 85-91
P4 74-84

Class average 86.7

 

[BooMed]

Oh the class aren't curved. They just break you up on how you do relative to one another.

How would it work if everyone got in the 90s on a test? Would it still be broken into P1/P2/etc?

I can never figure this stuff out, maybe I should be at a P/F school!

 

[Shades McCool]

Yeah even if everyone got an "A" in the class, the highest 25% of the A's would be P1 while the next 50% would be P2/P3 and the bottom 25% would be P4's.

 

[BlazerMed]

How would it work if everyone got in the 90s on a test? Would it still be broken into P1/P2/etc?

I can never figure this stuff out, maybe I should be at a P/F school!

This is the reason I'm against the percentage break-up method. Granted, this will probably never happen, I just think the existence of the possibility makes the system flawed.

 

[odrade1]

I just got back from NO, and now have the passport. Only 700 miles later. The day would have been a total waste except that my father asked to accompany me, and we had fun spending time together.

Grades: I was thinking about this as we drove, and there really needs to be a way to separate out weak, strong, and average students without driving them nuts.

Here's a possible solution:

Professors typically compute final numerical grades, which are usually expressed as a number between 0 and 100.

Like days past, let these grades map onto the old ABCDF values.

Also compute the P1,P2,P3,P4 values for these numerical grades.

Report both sets of grades:

Of course the best student in the class gets
A P1
but some people who got 90 got
A P2
and some people who got 85 got
B P3
and some people got 81
B P4
and some unfortunates got 74
C P4

Class rankings (as opposed to grading) could be based off of either method, though I tend to think that the best measure of academic performance would be a gpa based off of A, A-, B+, B, B-, C+, C, etc... Of course in this situation the numerical grades would be mapped onto A, A-, B+, etc... instead of ABCDF.

The most honest ranking (not grading) would compute z-scores for each student for each course, then assign weights based on the number of credit hours for the course, then order students by weighted relative performance. N

I favor the combined grade strategy (Letter grade paired with a relative P1, etc.) It puts both kinds of information into perspective: the numerical/absolute performance (transformed into categories like ABCDF) and the relative performance (P1, P2, P4). Someone reviewing the grades can see both how the student did in absolute terms and relatively to their peers. Sometimes a P4 isn't a bad thing, when everyone is kicking ass. This would be evident if a lot of your P4s have Bs in the class. Other times there is an ocean of absolute difference between the performance of your P1s and your P4s. This is evident when your P1s have As and your P4s have Ds. The current med students are rightly in a frenzy because a difference of 6 or so points can separate the P1s from the P4s. When all that goes on the transcript (or to the student, even) is P1, P2/P3, P4 then super-competitiveness must follow, if the students are serious about getting good residencies, etc. The A, A-, B+, B, B-, C+, C, etc... style grade paired with the P# grade puts the P# grade into proper perspective.

When I analyze student grades (which is one of my jobs) I need to know both kinds of info. I get letter & number grades reported to me by professors, which I must relate to class trend info (like which quartile they are in, what kind of normalized score do they have, etc...) in order to interpret worth a damn. Telling me that julie was in the middle fifth of her class isn't helpful except to know that 40% did worse than her and 40% did better. I might not know that all the students were gifted & got A's. In such a situation I could falsely conclude that Julie was a mediocre student (which is not the same as her score being a middle-quintile achieving student in a set of scores).

The earlier poster is right that marrying the p/f with the P1,P2/P3,P4 method isn't an improvement. This is true because you ALREADY KNOW if you passed or failed (you got a P1, etc or an F), and since the only other information available to reviewers of your transcript will be the relative ranking, everyone will STILL be obsessed about the relative rankings. Why not just use a larger font when reporting the P# grades? Its the same thing when you tell someone that they P1 and that they P. If this is the policy they pursue, then I will be so irritated that I might stroke out.

 

[BooMed]

Odrade, you really did major in philosophy, didn't you?

 

[Doctor&Geek]

I just got back from NO, and now have the passport. Only 700 miles later. The day would have been a total waste except that my father asked to accompany me, and we had fun spending time together.

Grades: I was thinking about this as we drove, and there really needs to be a way to separate out weak, strong, and average students without driving them nuts.

Here's a possible solution:

Professors typically compute final numerical grades, which are usually expressed as a number between 0 and 100.

Like days past, let these grades map onto the old ABCDF values.

Also compute the P1,P2,P3,P4 values for these numerical grades.

Report both sets of grades:

Of course the best student in the class gets
A P1
but some people who got 90 got
A P2
and some people who got 85 got
B P3
and some people got 81
B P4
and some unfortunates got 74
C P4

Class rankings (as opposed to grading) could be based off of either method, though I tend to think that the best measure of academic performance would be a gpa based off of A, A-, B+, B, B-, C+, C, etc... Of course in this situation the numerical grades would be mapped onto A, A-, B+, etc... instead of ABCDF.

Sorry, this is EXACTLY the same system used before the grading change to quartiles. Not only that, but every residency program director got breakdowns for grades i.e. % of As for every class, %Bs, etc.

Really, I'm becoming more convinced that we should just axe P4 and group it with P2/P3.

 

[odrade1]

Odrade, you really did major in philosophy, didn't you?

I think that I have several "tells." Which did you notice?

Any time you study philosophy or math for more than a few semesters it begins rewiring your brain, and you never really get right again.

 

[odrade1]

Sorry, this is EXACTLY the same system used before the grading change to quartiles.

Then it sounds like it was a better system!

letter grades + quartiles = maximal information & context (within privacy constraints)

quartiles only = too much hyper-competiveness & bad marks from students on accreditation reviews

p/f = not enough distinction between the hard workers & the sliders

p/f + quartiles = quartiles (since you already know if you passed or not) = hypercompetiveness

 

[Doctor&Geek]

I don't think the administration and even the students were concerned about competitiveness more than what the residency directors consensus wanted out a grading system. I'm surprised after going back to the old Discus posts that many students were in favor of this grading system, and even some were disappointed not be the first class to get it!

No confusion, no excess information, just the facts. Residency directors don't want to have to look at an elaborate grading system, and my guess is that if there's any way to decrease annoyance at our grading system, and therefore improve our chances of matching, then so be it. In retrospect, that's a pretty flimsy reason, but that's what was given at the time.

BTW, pass/fail isn't going to help us either when it comes to residency time. We don't have the "name" of other schools, so if programs have no grading information about our top students, then those students may have difficulty obtaining competitive positions. On the other hand, some not so good students may be more able to get better positions if we're pass/fail.

I would also add that there's another way to look at it - a switch to a pass/fail system could raise the competitiveness of getting into school in the first place, since it appears that a lot of potential students are turned off by any grading system, especially in the first two years. I doubt any students are turned off by pass/fail, so I imagine a certain cohort of students would be more likely to matriculate if we had a pass/fail system.

 

[odrade1]

Sorry, this is EXACTLY the same system used before the grading change to quartiles. Not only that, but every residency program director got breakdowns for grades i.e. % of As for every class, %Bs, etc.

Really, I'm becoming more convinced that we should just axe P4 and group it with P2/P3.

If one must merely report P#, and If the typical grade difference between P2 and P4 is less than 10 points (out of 100), then I would agree that P4 should be lumped with P2/P3.

This amounts to an Honors Pass/Pass/Fail system, which might be enough of a change to reduce the crazy & bitterness I have heard over the current P# system.

-------
Mere %As, %Bs, etc, plus the letter grade is not enough info to know how that individual did in terms of quartiles. However, while it does not provide a number that relates the performance of one to the others, it *does* give a general feel for how that person did relative to the group. I bet the residency directors *also* got the quartile or percentile info for each student.

There are several issues here:
how much info does the student have about her grades and her standing?
how much info does the residency director have about her grades and her standing?
are the two sets of info identical, and should they be?

It may be that giving students too much info leads to hypercompetiveness, which apparently some people don't like. (I enjoy competition, but not if it leads to crazy behaviors, stress disorders (in me), or bratty acting out by my classmates). On the other hand, I tend to believe that intelligent people deserve to have access to as much information about their situation as possible. Autonomy is an issue here, you see. I'm not sure that residency directors should have info about my grades that I don't have as well, since I have a right to (reasonably) determine my fate (which is a function of how well I can control the outcomes (grades, etc) that the directors have access to).

Personally, I like to know how I did, percentile wise, relative to my classmates. I would, however, be content with either the system I suggested in the earlier post, or D&G's version of the honors pass/pass/fail system.

 

[BooMed]

I think that I have several "tells." Which did you notice?

Any time you study philosophy or math for more than a few semesters it begins rewiring your brain, and you never really get right again.

My fiance was a philosophy major too and you sound exactly like him!

It's much more difficult to argue with a philosphy major. 😀 You're so damn logical, yet so confusing.

 

[Shades McCool]

Well we are having a town hall meeting today at lunch to discuss the proposed grading system change and I will pass along any info I can.

 

[QofQuimica]

Personally, I like to know how I did, percentile wise, relative to my classmates. I would, however, be content with either the system I suggested in the earlier post, or D&G's version of the honors pass/pass/fail system.

If this is true of most of the students, then you guys are right: P/F won't work. 😛 The whole idea is to get the students AWAY from comparing themselves to their classmates.

 

[odrade1]

If this is true of most of the students, then you guys are right: P/F won't work. 😛 The whole idea is to get the students AWAY from comparing themselves to their classmates.

Getting people away from comparing themselves to their classmates has a certain value, but autonomy and fairness also have a value. I lose some of my ability to self-determine properly when I am denied information about my relative standing, while information about my relative standing is available to others who assess me professionally. (this is a problem if the P# & P/F info is available to administrators, etc.)

Also, my sense of fairness is violated terribly by the idea that slackers can earn high 70s in classes that I earn mid 90s in, yet we both get the same grade: P. (this is a problem if the P# grades are not used, but only P/F is)

I guess I could live with myself, even in a p/f environment, since even though I still get the same grade as most of the class, I will know personally that I am the intellectual master of 75-90% of them, so my self worth will not go down.

 

[BooMed]

USMLE scores count for a lot too, right?

That's so funny, I don't care at all how I'm doing in comparison to other people... but I want to do well in general. I figure everyone in med school is going to be pretty smart, so I'm letting go of being the best right now. 😛

But on the upside I can't wait to have friends who like school!

 

[BlazerMed]

I can enjoy school... it's classes and lectures that I hate!

 

[odrade1]

My fiance was a philosophy major too and you sound exactly like him!

It's much more difficult to argue with a philosphy major. 😀 You're so damn logical, yet so confusing.

I've long thought that my partner could use a support group for people married to philosophers. Maybe he could commisurate with you about this.