Applying to MD PhD with One Withdrawal

[Deedeediamond39]

I plan to apply for MD PhD programs my senior year (taking a Gap year). My two top schools are Emory and Stanford. I currently have a 4.0 GPA and I’m a junior. I’ve been doing research since the summer of freshman year, each semester. I also got into Mayo Clinic’s summer fellowship for this summer (even though it may get cancelled due to Corona). However, there is one class (professor actually) that is really bothering me. It’ll be the class to destroy my straight A streak. It’s microbiology lab (1 credit hour). The class is point based but I’ve lost too many points in the class to make an A so I’m currently in the B range but we have a Lab Practicum coming up where I’m sure she’ll take off a lot of points (she’s known for taking off a lot of points for tiny errors), possibly making me end up in the C range. I’m certain I would make an A if I take the lab again in the spring of my senior year with a different professor. There’s a lot going on right now and because of Corona, our school is letting us withdrawal (W) anytime for the rest of the semester without academic penalty.

How bad would one W look for me through Stanford and Emory’s eyes? Would I still have a chance of getting an interview? Should I withdraw? Have any advice?

[UPDATE] For those saying this question comes from being neurotic, you’re partially correct but this question of whether to take the W or keep a B or C mainly comes from me being tired of this teacher and lab now that everything has been switched online and the whole class plan has been changed. I guess I’m just tired of stressing constantly over studying and excessive work for this class. Ik it’s a stupid reason to withdraw but I feel like it would be less stressful to just take the lab again another semester when everything hasn’t been moved online. At this point we aren’t even doing the lab work anymore, we’re just being tested over the material.

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[tardigrade88]

In this crazy time, I sincerely doubt that you'd be penalized for making modifications to your schedule in the wake of the virus. Throughout my interviews this cycle, interviewers seemed consistently impressed by expressions of emotional maturity and knowing my limits. I imagine they'll extend you the same understanding.

 

[KnightDoc]

I plan to apply for MD PhD programs my senior year (taking a Gap year). My two top schools are Emory and Stanford. I currently have a 4.0 GPA and I’m a junior. I’ve been doing research since the summer of freshman year, each semester. I also got into Mayo Clinic’s summer fellowship for this summer (even though it may get cancelled due to Corona). However, there is one class (professor actually) that is really bothering me. It’ll be the class to destroy my straight A streak. It’s microbiology lab (1 credit hour). The class is point based but I’ve lost too many points in the class to make an A so I’m currently in the B range but we have a Lab Practicum coming up where I’m sure she’ll take off a lot of points (she’s known for taking off a lot of points for tiny errors), possibly making me end up in the C range. I’m certain I would make an A if I take the lab again in the spring of my senior year with a different professor. There’s a lot going on right now and because of Corona, our school is letting us withdrawal (W) anytime for the rest of the semester without academic penalty.

How bad would one W look for me through Stanford and Emory’s eyes? Would I still have a chance of getting an interview? Should I withdraw? Have any advice?

I suggest you direct this question to the adcoms here for a more informed answer. They have repeatedly observed that our neuroticism is viewed negatively by them, and the perfectionism displayed by those of us obsessing over 4.0s is sometimes considered a red flag due to the questions it raises regarding our ability to handle the stresses we will inevitably face in med school. One W in a 4.0 transcript might very well be such a red flag, as opposed to taking the B or C, which would merely evidence that you are not perfect while not having a material impact on your GPA.

Again, I urge you to seek their advice, and not just listen to me, because I might be off base here. Good luck!!

 

[gyngyn]

Nobody cares about the difference between 4.0 and 3.9...

 

[Deedeediamond39]

I suggest you direct this question to the adcoms here for a more informed answer. They have repeatedly observed that our neuroticism is viewed negatively by them, and the perfectionism displayed by those of us obsessing over 4.0s is sometimes considered a red flag due to the questions it raises regarding our ability to handle the stresses we will inevitably face in med school. One W in a 4.0 transcript might very well be such a red flag, as opposed to taking the B or C, which would merely evidence that you are not perfect while not having a material impact on your GPA.

Again, I urge you to seek their advice, and not just listen to me, because I might be off base here. Good luck!!

Thank you! When you say direct to adcoms, do you mean add adcoms as a tag? Sorry I’m new to making a thread so I have no clue lol

 

[KnightDoc]

Thank you! When you say direct to adcoms, do you mean add adcoms as a tag? Sorry I’m new to making a thread so I have no clue lol

Sorry, I should have checked and noticed you were brand new!!! One already responded (@gyngyn). My other favorites are @Goro, @gonnif and @LizzyM . There are a few others whose names escape me -- hopefully they will see this and respond.

Keep in mind, this forum is frequented by premeds like us, med students, residents, attendings, parents, administrators, etc. While we all have opinions, and sometimes even sound like we know what are talking about, the very best advice comes from those on the inside (faculty, administrators, physicians and students who serve on adcoms, etc.).

 

[gyngyn]

Are you sure you can say “no one” ? Not even Stanford or Emory for a MD PhD program? I hear these programs are more strict compared to MD or DO programs and harder to get into and even more hard because of the schools I’m aiming for.

No one is looking for perfectionists or those who have never "failed" in any way. Take a look at the MSAR to see the range of matriculant gpa's in the schools you desire, if needed.

 

[Deedeediamond39]

Nobody cares about the difference between 4.0 and 3.9...

Actually! I have heard that before from someone involved in graduate admissions. He said 3.9 and 4.0 are lumped together. How do they view retaking a class and making an A if the student originally made a C? Do they not care or do they view it as the student learning from their mistake?

 

[gyngyn]

Actually! I have heard that before from someone involved in graduate admissions. He said 3.9 and 4.0 are lumped together. How do they view retaking a class and making an A if the student originally made a C? Do they not care or do they view it as the student learning from their mistake?

A single C (in a field of A's) should not be re-taken for an A.
A physician who demands perfection in all things is an entirely ineffective clinician (and a really terrible surgeon).

 

[Goro]

I plan to apply for MD PhD programs my senior year (taking a Gap year). My two top schools are Emory and Stanford. I currently have a 4.0 GPA and I’m a junior. I’ve been doing research since the summer of freshman year, each semester. I also got into Mayo Clinic’s summer fellowship for this summer (even though it may get cancelled due to Corona). However, there is one class (professor actually) that is really bothering me. It’ll be the class to destroy my straight A streak. It’s microbiology lab (1 credit hour). The class is point based but I’ve lost too many points in the class to make an A so I’m currently in the B range but we have a Lab Practicum coming up where I’m sure she’ll take off a lot of points (she’s known for taking off a lot of points for tiny errors), possibly making me end up in the C range. I’m certain I would make an A if I take the lab again in the spring of my senior year with a different professor. There’s a lot going on right now and because of Corona, our school is letting us withdrawal (W) anytime for the rest of the semester without academic penalty.

How bad would one W look for me through Stanford and Emory’s eyes? Would I still have a chance of getting an interview? Should I withdraw? Have any advice?

Perfection is the enemy of good.

Losing your 4.0 GPA is like losing your virginity...there's a time for it.

 

[Goro]

Sorry, I should have checked and noticed you were brand new!!! One already responded (@gyngyn). My other favorites are @Goro, @gonnif and @LizzyM . There are a few others whose names escape me -- hopefully they will see this and respond.

Keep in mind, this forum is frequented by premeds like us, med students, residents, attendings, parents, administrators, etc. While we all have opinions, and sometimes even sound like we know what are talking about, the very best advice comes from those on the inside (faculty, administrators, physicians and students who serve on adcoms, etc.).

There's also our wise Adcom colleagues Moko, @Angus Avagadro , @Catalystik, @Doctor-S , and @lord999

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I plan to apply for MD PhD programs my senior year (taking a Gap year). My two top schools are Emory and Stanford. I currently have a 4.0 GPA and I’m a junior. I’ve been doing research since the summer of freshman year, each semester. I also got into Mayo Clinic’s summer fellowship for this summer (even though it may get cancelled due to Corona). However, there is one class (professor actually) that is really bothering me. It’ll be the class to destroy my straight A streak. It’s microbiology lab (1 credit hour). The class is point based but I’ve lost too many points in the class to make an A so I’m currently in the B range but we have a Lab Practicum coming up where I’m sure she’ll take off a lot of points (she’s known for taking off a lot of points for tiny errors), possibly making me end up in the C range. I’m certain I would make an A if I take the lab again in the spring of my senior year with a different professor. There’s a lot going on right now and because of Corona, our school is letting us withdrawal (W) anytime for the rest of the semester without academic penalty.

How bad would one W look for me through Stanford and Emory’s eyes? Would I still have a chance of getting an interview? Should I withdraw? Have any advice?

It's one credit hour. It's microbio lab, not your research. Other things will factor in with getting an interview for an MSTP. It's your option to withdraw, but I doubt it's going to kill your chances whether you withdraw or take the Pass.

 

[lord999]

With all due respect to the undergraduate experience, for most laboratory science majors with respect to the MSTP, the only reason why we somewhat care about the undergraduate grades is to ensure that you do not do stupid things in the lab like get everyone sick or something in the Pathogenic Microbial laboratory. It's one credit, imperfection is not fatal and honestly, perfectionism is aggressively culled as a behavior in graduate school as it leads to not accepting failure as a unfortunate but necessary part of the research lifestyle. Stanford knows something in particular about this.

It's more important that we get an understanding of the quality and breadth of your training than a particular class. If you publish (not even in first or last position) and have a sustained lab experience with a good rec from a PI, I won't even bother looking at grades as long as they are not outright failures.

Now, if this is the basic Micro class and you intend on Micro or related as a graduate major, that honestly means that you have to do better in your advanced Micro classes (but doubt it if you are taking it this late into your undergraduate career). But, don't sweat this.

If you are going to Rochester this summer, make it a point to rotate off-duty in a couple of the labs outside of your building and attend the evening more informal seminars as well as the assigned day seminars. You'll pick up on things that you won't see in the daytime.

 

[Deedeediamond39]

In this crazy time, I sincerely doubt that you'd be penalized for making modifications to your schedule in the wake of the virus. Throughout my interviews this cycle, interviewers seemed consistently impressed by expressions of emotional maturity and knowing my limits. I imagine they'll extend you the same understanding.

Did you also withdraw from a class? And I’m just curious, what schools did u get interviews from (sorry I’m not sure if this is a rude questions- I sincerely hope not!)

 

[Goro]

Did you also withdraw from a class? And I’m just curious, what schools did u get interviews from (sorry I’m not sure if this is a rude questions- I sincerely hope not!)

Just as an FYI, SDNers have this delusion that a W is somehow worse than an F.

It's not.

A sea of scattered Ws is what sets off the radar...it looks like someone is trying to protect thier GPA. A semester of Ws is a sign of illness or a life event. This is what Ws were made for.

 

[KnightDoc]

Just as an FYI, SDNers have this delusion that a W is somehow worse than an F.

It's not.

A sea of scattered Ws is what sets off the radar...it looks like someone is trying to protect thier GPA. A semester of Ws is a sign of illness or a life event. This is what Ws were made for.

Right -- and OP is asking about a W in a one credit class on a 4.0 GPA, which is someone neurotically protecting a GPA when it is totally unnecessary to do so. Will that be overlooked because it is inconsequential, or will it be a red flag of someone unwilling to accept an imperfection on a transcript? That is really the ultimate question.

This is neither a life event nor a semester of Ws nor a sea of Ws. Is this what Ws were made for -- to avoid a one credit B on a 4.0 transcript, or is perfection the enemy of good?

 

[Pagan FutureDoc]

A single W won’t hurt your chances and a single B or C won’t hurt your chances either. But what will hurt your chances and your sanity is being a neurotic mess who obsesses over every imperfection

 

[Goro]

Right -- and OP is asking about a W in a one credit class on a 4.0 GPA, which is someone neurotically protecting a GPA when it is totally unnecessary to do so. Will that be overlooked because it is inconsequential, or will it be a red flag of someone unwilling to accept an imperfection on a transcript? That is really the ultimate question.

This is neither a life event nor a semester of Ws nor a sea of Ws. Is this what Ws were made for -- to avoid a one credit B on a 4.0 transcript, or is perfection the enemy of good?

A single W is not harmful.

Capeesh?

 

[Splenda88]

A single W is not harmful.

Capeesh?

I got probably 3... and there is no asterisk next to my M.D. *

 

[Doctor-S]

There's also our wise Adcom colleagues Moko, @Angus Avagadro , @Catalystik, @Doctor-S , and @lord999

You have a strong GPA, you don't need to worry about a single "W" ... it's not going to matter.

 

[Deedeediamond39]

Right -- and OP is asking about a W in a one credit class on a 4.0 GPA, which is someone neurotically protecting a GPA when it is totally unnecessary to do so. Will that be overlooked because it is inconsequential, or will it be a red flag of someone unwilling to accept an imperfection on a transcript? That is really the ultimate question.

This is neither a life event nor a semester of Ws nor a sea of Ws. Is this what Ws were made for -- to avoid a one credit B on a 4.0 transcript, or is perfection the enemy of good?

These are really good questions. Would you say a W is also a sign of imperfection?

 

[Deedeediamond39]

I plan to apply for MD PhD programs my senior year (taking a Gap year). My two top schools are Emory and Stanford. I currently have a 4.0 GPA and I’m a junior. I’ve been doing research since the summer of freshman year, each semester. I also got into Mayo Clinic’s summer fellowship for this summer (even though it may get cancelled due to Corona). However, there is one class (professor actually) that is really bothering me. It’ll be the class to destroy my straight A streak. It’s microbiology lab (1 credit hour). The class is point based but I’ve lost too many points in the class to make an A so I’m currently in the B range but we have a Lab Practicum coming up where I’m sure she’ll take off a lot of points (she’s known for taking off a lot of points for tiny errors), possibly making me end up in the C range. I’m certain I would make an A if I take the lab again in the spring of my senior year with a different professor. There’s a lot going on right now and because of Corona, our school is letting us withdrawal (W) anytime for the rest of the semester without academic penalty.

How bad would one W look for me through Stanford and Emory’s eyes? Would I still have a chance of getting an interview? Should I withdraw? Have any advice?

Nobody cares about the difference between 4.0 and 3.9...

A single W won’t hurt your chances and a single B or C won’t hurt your chances either. But what will hurt your chances and your sanity is being a neurotic mess who obsesses over every imperfection

I just don’t want to put in extra unnecessary work if there is a better route to take.

 

[lord999]

These are really good questions. Would you say a W is also a sign of imperfection?

I just don’t want to put in extra unnecessary work if there is a better route to take.

One of the founding principles of this particular forum is that we are not to judge. That said, I would say that you need to let go. There are times when you cannot make a perfect solution work, but it is not good to sacrifice the good for the perfect if not reasonable. Taking a B is not unreasonable in this circumstance. The fretting to some extent is something worthwhile, but in my opinion, you seem too fixated on this. This fixation is not good, and is a major red flag if I happen to notice it in a potential MSTP, because especially clinical training is about risk vs. time tradeoffs that there are no good solutions (Emergency and Critical Care Medicine are especially challenging in those aspects and overly dithering has clinical consequences).

The advice everyone wrote above stands, but I write this to say that I am deeply concerned that you lack a sense of proportion to dealing with failure. This is not catastrophic failure as everyone else has noted, but you still have work ahead of you. If your research experience has been this clean, you are not as experienced as you could be even going into an MSTP. But if you take this attitude into research, I promise you that it will end badly. You have to be able to cast failures in perspective and proportionally recover from those instances. Negligence still seriously matters, but failing to measure up is not as serious comparatively.

 

[Schedar]

I just don’t want to put in extra unnecessary work if there is a better route to take.

At risk of outing myself, I'm going to post the same response I gave on reddit when you posted an identical question:

hi! i’m a stanford mstp accepted student and while i didn’t have any Ws, i had a majority A-, a few B+ and some Bs. you’re going to be way more than fine, i promise.

that said, and i don’t mean this as a scathing critique but something you will probably want to work on for your own health and sanity, you are much more likely to be kept from success by a mindset where you think a single W will keep you from a school. admissions are random to a point. you could be literally perfect and get into many great schools and still not make it into either of those. it won’t be because of the W.

it’s a global pandemic. people are dying. your school has likely enacted this policy because many of your peers are now literally unable to complete their coursework. many of them will also go on to be successful doctors and lawyers and scientists and etc. etc. etc. ... if that doesn’t put these grades into perspective for you, nothing will. your worry is far better spent looking out for vulnerable members of your community. you are going to be okay if you just breath, both in the literal and metaphorical sense.

i believe in you.

 

[KnightDoc]

These are really good questions. Would you say a W is also a sign of imperfection?

No -- and honestly, it's not my advice, because I'm as neurotic as anyone when it comes to doing as well as I can. It's the adcoms who repeatedly say that our obsessiveness about our grades, and perfection, is a negative. So, it's not that the W is imperfect; it's that you chose it to maintain a 4.0, which is a red flag to someone who views the obsession on perfection negatively.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Perfection is the enemy of good.

Losing your 4.0 GPA is like losing your virginity...there's a time for it.

Virginity joke never gets stale

 

[deleted314957]

No -- and honestly, it's not my advice, because I'm as neurotic as anyone when it comes to doing as well as I can. It's the adcoms who repeatedly say that our obsessiveness about our grades, and perfection, is a negative. So, it's not that the W is imperfect; it's that you chose it to maintain a 4.0, which is a red flag to someone who views the obsession on perfection negatively.

I plan to apply for MD PhD programs my senior year (taking a Gap year). My two top schools are Emory and Stanford. I currently have a 4.0 GPA and I’m a junior. I’ve been doing research since the summer of freshman year, each semester. I also got into Mayo Clinic’s summer fellowship for this summer (even though it may get cancelled due to Corona). However, there is one class (professor actually) that is really bothering me. It’ll be the class to destroy my straight A streak. It’s microbiology lab (1 credit hour). The class is point based but I’ve lost too many points in the class to make an A so I’m currently in the B range but we have a Lab Practicum coming up where I’m sure she’ll take off a lot of points (she’s known for taking off a lot of points for tiny errors), possibly making me end up in the C range. I’m certain I would make an A if I take the lab again in the spring of my senior year with a different professor. There’s a lot going on right now and because of Corona, our school is letting us withdrawal (W) anytime for the rest of the semester without academic penalty.

How bad would one W look for me through Stanford and Emory’s eyes? Would I still have a chance of getting an interview? Should I withdraw? Have any advice?

[UPDATE] For those saying this question comes from being neurotic, you’re partially correct but this question of whether to take the W or keep a B or C mainly comes from me being tired of this teacher and lab now that everything has been switched online and the whole class plan has been changed. I guess I’m just tired of stressing constantly over studying and excessive work for this class. Ik it’s a stupid reason to withdraw but I feel like it would be less stressful to just take the lab again another semester when everything hasn’t been moved online. At this point we aren’t even doing the lab work anymore, we’re just being tested over the material.

Oh you poor,poor baby. You may have your “perfect” 4.0
GPA upset by a 1 hr B or C? How old are you? This is a display by a juvenile who is completely out of touch with the rest of the world. So concerned about your G.D. “B”!
People with your level of immaturity, conceit and insularity do not belong in medicine.
If you do get in, please stay in a research lab.
Mike Sherman U of I class of 1977.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Goro]

Oh you poor,poor baby. You may have your “perfect” 4.0
GPA upset by a 1 hr B or C? How old are you? This is a display by a juvenile who is completely out of touch with the rest of the world. So concerned about your G.D. “B”!
People with your level of immaturity, conceit and insularity do not belong in medicine.
If you do get in, please stay in a research lab.
Mike Sherman U of I class of 1977.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk