I just found this post written by harmlessfun21.
I would like AZCOM students give their opinion on this post, whether it is true or not. I got acceptance and am deciding if I should go there. Thank you
When I was applying to Osteopathic schools I got a lot of feedback from SDN and current and former
AZCOM students - both the good and the bad. I think it's time that I post my own opinions and contribute to information sharing. In the end, we're all responsible for our own lives and educations, but I believe that we should all contribute our best to the sharing of knowlege and opinions - so we can all make informed decisions.
I just finished my second year, and will soon be starting my third, and I do plan on taking both board exams relatively soon. When I applied to
AZCOM, the school was doing quite well, the previous matchlists were quite good, students were relatively happy with their educations, and although the clinical education wasn't very strong, they did allow students to do as many out of state as they wanted - and this was a good thing because there were many residency programs that loved to take our 3rd/4th students - and they even provided housing and meals. A few things have changed.....
If you look up AZCOM's accreditation report, you'll notice that for a second time in a row they have brought up the concern of high faculty turnover. During the time that I have been here, the 2 head faculty memebers in the physiology department left the school (Drs. Stanley, married), a top anatomy professor (Dr. Fischer), pathology professor (Dr. McCarver, who now does the occasional 'pity' lecture), and rumor has it that this is last year for Dr. Walters (the head of the anatomy department and and awesome professor), Dr. Mann (head of the biochemistry department), and Dr. Lovecchio (head of Clinical Correlates). Who else is leaving? THE DEAN! And the new dean? A local family practioner! Did students have any input on this? Of course not! Obviously there is something seriously wrong.....
In the past 3 years, AZCOM's tuition has increased 9k, and the number of hospital positions that they offer students has decreased. This is for a number or reason, among them, the new ASU-downtown medical school and the old UofA are eating up spots, Kirksville's new Mesa, AZ campus is staking their claim, and Creighton University (Nebraska) paid and took all of the spots at St. Joe's hospital. The average loan amount for students next year (everything included) is a little less than 70k. More expensive than USC in Southern California, and this Glendale, AZ - one of the cheapest places to live that you can think of. Obviously there is something seriously wrong.....
Please compare the matchlists from this past 2 years, to thosefrom 3-7 years ago. Now compare them to other DO schools, and CCOM
http://mwunet.midwestern.edu/academic/AZCOM/azcomDean_Match.htm
http://mwunet.midwestern.edu/academic/CCOMClinEd/studentArea.htm
You will notice that competitive placements took a HUGE downturn at
AZCOM. Obviously there is something seriously wrong.....
Please take a look at the 3rd year rotations:
http://mwunet.midwestern.edu/academic/AZCOMClinEd_Dept/ceMSIII.htm
This is somewhat misleading, as we only get one elective, not two. Moreover, there is one rotation missing! "RURAL MEDICINE" - i.e. you WILL be going to the middle of nowhere for 4 weeks. Also please note that there are 12 weeks of family medicine, and 4 of internal, and 4 or surgery. Compare this to that of NYCOM: 6weeks family, 12 weeks internal med., 12 weeks surgery (and no RURAL MED!!!). When I interviewed at
AZCOM I specifically asked if the school was going to try and 'push' me into primary care - as I already knew that I would never go into that field...I was told that
AZCOM is a private school that does not receive state funding, and as such did not care what their students wanted to do and that as a 'new and small school we don't have any red-tape and tailor to each students needs.' Moreover I was told that they encouraged their students to do out-of-state residency-based rotations (without limits). All lies of course. The school is very much set on it's students going into family medicine (I'm still dumbfunded as to their reasoning), and as of my year, we are no longer allowed to do more than 3 out of state rotations!!! Keep in mind that the school doesn't have dedicated hospital sites, so the vast majority of our rotations (myself included) are with preceptors in their office - these preceptors are not paid, they are not 'designed' to teach, they have an office to run, and many have terrible student evaluations - but there aren't enough preceptors to go around, in order to weed our the 'bad ones.' Obviously there is something seriously wrong....
The school has decided to add 100 new students to the cl***** (to bring the total to 250), but it does not have basic science and clinical science resources or faculty to do this. We all know it, we've raised alarms (on deaf ears) and I feel sorry for incoming clueless freshman. Obviously there is something seriously wrong....
Let's do the math! 150 students in my class, paying 42k+ in tuition = about 6.3 million dollars. How much of that goes to pay for our clinical education? NOTHING. All clinical education sites are basically either free (volunteer preceptors, needy community hospitals), or are paid in peanuts ($50 a student) etc. OTHER SCHOOLS PAY BIG MONEY FOR THE STUDENTS TO ROTATE AT QUALITY HOSPITALS.
AZCOM refuses. The Mayo clinic in scottsdale offered for our students to rotate at their hospital for 1.5 mil,
AZCOM refused! Instead we have (and not enough apparently) preceptors with bad evals, and no longer allowed to do more than 3 out-of-state. Meanwhile, the school has put of 3 new buildings since the time that I've been here - and they refuse to release their line-item 'non-profit' financial statements. I wonder why... Perhaps it has something to do with a recently published article about how AZCOM's CEO (yes, you heard me right, CEO) Goeppinger's 600k+, base salary, her private jet, the absolute refusal to release line-item NON-PROFIT financial statements, and something about this article:
http://www.nasfaa.org/publications/2007/awsalchallenge020107.html &
http://www.azcentral.com/community/peoria/articles/0131gl-midwestern27Z2.html. Obviously there is something seriously wrong.....
There are many other things (the schools lack of support funding for basic science research), the general hostility of Phoenix physicians towards the school (I wonder why?), and most of all: the students are treated like objects - we are not heard nor listened to. Our opinions mean nothing, and change nothing...and why should they? As long as we're dollar signs, trapped, and forced to keep on giving. Sadly, I had many other offers, and chose
AZCOM for what it should have been, not what it is now.
There are many other things wrong with this program. I've only given you a taste from my own personal perspective. I can't change anything at this school, and frankly I don't really care to try, as I am almost done. I didn't get from my education what I had anticipated to get, but I don't live my life with regrets either. To those of you considering coming here (especially if you see yourself as a 'gunner') - think twice. And then a third time. Then a forth. Then hit yourself with a shovel, and think again.
Lastly, a final note about the rumored boards scores etc. It's all BS and I'll explain:
AZCOM has a very high
pass rate, but low average board scores. In other words "we all know the bare minimum to
pass, but not enough to do well." This is true for the comlex. The
usmle is a different story - the average score is a fail (not-passed). Of course, neither average is ever published. Only the fact that our students '
pass' the comlex. Woopdie-doo-hurray...we all barely
pass the complex, and barely anyone matched into surgery this past year, radiology, etc.
Medical school is a one time deal. Your education, board scores, and residency placements are one time deals. Think long and hard, and don't rush it. You've put in way too much time, effort, energy, and money to sell yourself short on the most important part of it all. Research carefully, talk to current students, and don't go by the 'pretty campus.' Make your first medical decision! Is this school healthy? Are their finances healthy? Will my finances be healthy? Are the current students healthy? Is their matchlist healthy? Is their clinical education (arguably the most important part of your education) healthy? Is their basic science program still healthy? Is their having the highest facualty turnover of any other school healthy? Is the lack of research funding healthy? Is the increase in incoming class sizes healthy? Are the schools resources healthy? Is this school technologically integrated (i.e. the paid to bring their resources uptodate)? Will I be where I want to be by the time I graduate from here based on the current trends? (i.e. is this patients fever increasing or decreasing over time?)
Be strong. Medicine is still a great field, very rewarding and enriching. Just do your best to prepare for your life-long journey. I wish you all the best of luck, and god bless.
😎
Well, let me introduce myself... my name is Mansoor Jatoi, I am a first year at AZCOM (Class of 2012) and I am the current Class Council President. The only reason I bring this up is because I get to participate in the Dean's Council meeting where I get to inquire on the many questions / points that were mentioned above directly with the Dean of our school and the Dean of our clinical education department.
I just like many of you, came across a post, like the one above right before getting into AZCOM, luckily, I knew a Doc that knew the previous Dean, Dr. Cole, and I got to give him a call before my interview and ask him questions about the changes of the school, rotations, board scores, etc. After reading that post, talking with him, and talking with my friends who are now fourth years at both AZCOM and CCOM, I made my choice to attend here.
I have not regretted this decision one bit since I got here. I think it is time for someone to defend the school for a change and give up to date information as to what is really going on behind the scenes as opposed to what is going on in the front.
I will do my best to address the major issues discussed above.
1) Matching is getting horrible?
http://mwunet.midwestern.edu/academic/AZCOM/azcomDean_Match.htm
Make that decision for yourself, don't look to what others have to say. In all honesty I ran the numbers it matches very closely to our only allopathic school in the state (University of Arizona). Do your own research, as anyone should, if you feel like this is not the place for you then go elsewhere. I was once told that an osteopathic physician would never make it to Harvard, we have a Doc that came from AZCOM that matched a Harvard Diagnostic Radiology program. What does this tell you? I doubt this has anything to do with the history / trends of this school, it has to do with what you put into your studies and how well you do and present yourself to the various programs. If you try hard enough you can indeed match in a competitive residencies at very competitive allopathic institutions. Bottom line, I don't think I agree with this statement, each class has its own personality, and their own will to succeed. We can't blame EVERYTHING on the school / faculty.
2) High turnover?
This may indeed be true, but in the recent time this school has been going through many changes as well. There is a change in leadership, the inaugural Dean, Dr. Cole, was retiring and the new Dean, Dr. Kemper was taking over. I believe he retired last year (2007) to be precise. Therefore, with any change in power, as we have seen with many medical schools across the nation, you get changes in faculty. It could be due to a number of reasons, but what I can speak of is the faculty that we currently have. They are amazing teachers, caring, and have a great open door policy. Unlike many other medical schools, they at least listen to what their students have to say and implement changes the next year for our next incoming class. Our class has already been responsible for changes in the curriculum and we are still actively working to make it better for the class of 2013. You can thank our class, our great Class Council, and our faculty for being willing to listen.
Dr. Cole our previous Dean was a pathologist / general practitioner. The point of that is who cares what specialty our Dean has? Does the Dean have to be a Neurosurgeon to be a good Dean? What makes this medical student qualified to pick our next Dean, I will leave that in the hands the people who have been running medical schools under the guidance of our parent school which has been in operation for 100 years.
3) OMG This school is expensive? What about the clinical rotations? Third year rotations, in state out of state?
This is absolutely true, this school is expensive, but you all knew that coming into that when you interviewed here. If this school is indeed too expensive for you, go elsewhere, you can't blame that on anyone. The counter argument is that well they should be paying for rotations. I am told that the previous Dean, Dr. Cole, was a bit strict on whether or not we should be paying for rotations for our medical students, since Dr. Kemper has taken over, I can tell you that our school is aggressively seeking additional rotations and sites in the state of Arizona and out of state. There is a great rotation program called the Ohio CORE program that the Class of 2011 will be rotating at (currently 20 students, to expand to 40 students for the class of 2012), where MWU is paying for those slots. It is an excellent opportunity for those who are willing to relocate for a year or two (optional year 2) and do a bunch of rotations at various hospitals in the Ohio CORE program (
www.ohiocore.org). There are many specialty residency programs at the hospitals that you will essentially audition rotation at (diagnostic radiology, dermatology, etc). Our Clinical Education department has gotten 7 new residency programs approved in the state and are working on many more while significantly decreasing the number of preceptor based rotations and trying to get many more ward based rotations. This is all new information straight from my Dean's Council meeting last month.
We do indeed have to stay in state or go to Ohio (currently, maybe more state programs to be added for us by the time we hit third year) because they are doing away with letting medical students arrange their own CORE rotations. The problem with allowing students to design their own CORE rotations is that some would get excellent rotations while others would not. If MWU takes over the CORE program and still give us the freedom fourth year to do what we want, they can ensure that we are getting a quality third year rotation that will better prepare us for fourth year. Honestly, I would rather give credit to a school for doing such a task rather than bring them down. I could understand if this changed after you get in and you were told something else in your interview, but I am telling you up front this is the case, so please don't hop on student doctor in the future and cry about this if you have already been informed.
🙂
As for rural medicine, many osteopathic medical schools require you do to rural medicine, but as of our last meeting this allows us to practice out in a rural area, but not necessarily in just Family Medicine. They are looking to expand it to a few options, one which may be General Surgery. It is Family Medicine and Internal Medicine right now, but Yuma, Arizona is considered a rural area. You aren't really out in a uncivilized part of the world, Yuma has a nice hospital there.
Furthermore, for those who have interviewed here, you know that the school spends money on itself. It is indeed a non-profit institution and it does re-invest its money in itself (just look at our auditorium and new buildings) and its students by loaning money to their students. The cost of education a physician in itself is not cheap (when you take into account facilities, cadavers, faculty, medical rotations, research, etc) and honestly that is the cost of going to a private school that doesn't get money from many other sources.
4) OMG THE CLASS IS REALLY 250 STUD..ENTS?
Yes the class is 250 students and I am a proud member of the inaugural class of 250. I have spoken with the Class Council before us and they were very worried about our class coming in, but the funny thing is, the true guinea pig in this situation is the Class of 2011. The school is trying a variety of things with them to see if it will work out for the inaugural class. I thank the Class of 2011 for this and we will keep our pulse on their reactions and they are adamant about making it better for our class. The Class of 2012 is very close knit class and we all will have our beefs with any medical school that we chose, but in all honestly, all in all, this school is pretty awesome. I love it, I don't mind the class size. I think I know more people in this class than I did of my much smaller class in Business School (University of Arizona) for my major (Management Information Systems).
When your class gets here, do events that will bring your class together and make you tight knit. Our Class Council is looking to do more things to engage the entire class and get us more tied together, but we have Facebook and a class website that we all share notes / recorded lectures (
www.azcom2012.com).
5) 1.5 Million Dollars for Mayo, WTH? Other schools buying out slots?
It is true, May did indeed offer that, but at that time and leadership we were not ready to spend that much money for what .. 4 slots? Come on, what this person fails to tell everyone is the limited number of slots Mayo offered to the school, it was not a large amount and definitely not worth it to the few students that would get to rotate there and the rest of the class will be paying for them to go there? If you are going to tell the story, please provide more details. There are other schools (ie: Creighton) that have been buying slots at various hospitals. These schools have additional funding than our school, therefore, I don't think it's fair to compare them to us. I think if we are going to compare, let's compare apples to apples. We are in talks with a number of new hospitals that are coming up for slots for our MS II and MS I class, rest assured that we will have excellent rotations come third year. I HAVE NO DOUBT OF THIS. I have spoken with a number of people, including the previous Dean, I bring it up every month so that I can inform my class of the updates in our clinical curriculum come third year and I love what I see. The direction this school is going is a good one, and in a couple of years when I am experiencing it, I will be happy to provide you those updates.
6) Bitterness of preceptor based rotations, treated like objects?
This is precisely why they are revamping the curriculum education, limiting the out of state rotations, and trying to be VERY involved in the setup and reservations of our third year / fourth year. They want to ensure that EVERY student, not just a few, get an excellent third year clinical education. They have already remove the preceptor program in the first two years because they were realizing that students were not being treated equally across the class. I am sincerely sorry that this particular medical student was a part of that change, but be thankful that we will not be a part of that change. Most of the dramatic changes are already under way and I suspect will be solidified by the time we get to third year.
7) Pseudo board scores? Pass rate versus USMLE?
I have yet to ask the Dean what our COMLEX average is and honestly I am not sure it truly matters. You study your tail off for your boards. This school will teach you what you need to know to pass your exams, but you have to put in the time and effort to get yourself up farther. I do know that our USMLE average is 205. This is not anywhere near the national average of 220, but remember, about 80% of our students take the USMLE and I am sure there are those that prepare for the COMLEX, not the USMLE, and decide just to take the USMLE to take it. Unfortunately, they score horrible and don't care because they did just fine on the COMLEX. The USMLE and COMLEX are two different beasts of a test. They are a completely different style of a test, although the core of the material is the same. As we all learned with the MCAT, the MCAT does not test you over the material like our undergrad, they are two different tests. You must prepare for the appropriate test. The allopathic students that take the boards, they don't have the COMLEX to fall back upon, they are studying to PASS and do well on the USMLE because that is ALL they have. So, with that in mind, our averages will be a little off because of people doing this and I am sure this is true universally of many Osteopathic schools across the country. Honestly what matters for most people, including allopathic schools, is just PASSING! We still have more than 50% of our class that specializes, when you look at many osteopathic medical schools across the country, our numbers are much higher than those. I think most schools are slowly turning away from family medicine sadly, but of course, many osteopathic schools still favor family medicine. I have never felt this way EVER nor has my colleague who is a fourth year here at AZCOM.
Now for my wrap up, just do your research before attending any medical school. For those who indeed do decide to come here, there will be things that you dislike, but you will learn to deal with it. But if you went to another medical school, you would've have had issues with things in that school too. All in all, this school is a great school with a great history. I have heard this a number of times from the different physicians that I worked with at Northwest Medical Center in Tucson (I worked there for 3 years) and Physicians that I know in Yuma (I went to high school in Yuma and my parents live in Yuma). Do your research so at least you are brought up to speed on the things that are important to you. The things that were important to me, was staying in Arizona (school wise), clinical education, a structured curriculum that doesn't allow me to fall behind (tests ALL THE DANG TIME.. this school will do that to you..
🙂, and a school that is willing to listen to their classes to make changes to their curriculum.
If you have any further questions regarding anything, please let me know, you can email me at:
[email protected] or post it here and send me an email saying that a question has been posted so that others can benefit from the question as well.
🙂 Take care and good luck on making your decisions on a medical school.