CampWWorld: A Delos Destination - Game Thread

[nyanko]

---

Members do not see this ad.

I do. And this is me being hypocritical, because SOV tends to make complicated games. But they've always been creative. It might just be because my shining WW moment was shooting wolf-DocE off his horse and wrecking his plan for winning the history game. And I think that's the game I moved everyone into the same location, thus wrecking mod-SOV's plan for a post-game global war between the remaining players.

that was the rick santorum incident. i haven't forgiven SOV totally for that.

 

[alohacat319]

That's not throwing you under the bus..... it's just trying to lynch you because you aren't village and therefore aren't useful for a villager win. But I get what you mean. 🙂

Bottom line to me: If you aren't villager ............. you aren't villager and should be eliminated. There are exceptions, like a neutral with a really strong voting history who can bring something to the table ("guys, I can protect you," or "I can seer and I'll release the results," or .... anything useful other than just "I promise, I'm playing for a villager win!"). Your comment about not caring who won just supports my approach. Too many games have had neutrals/chaos players dictating the outcome. Had you voted with SOV against Jilary or me, the game would have come down to a tie and a coin-flip. Village could have avoided that by getting rid of you. 🙂

Oh I totally see your side as a villager, no doubt about it. 🙂 But as a neutral, I saw my side.

 

[LetItSnow]

that was the rick santorum incident. i haven't forgiven SOV totally for that.

I don't think DocE ever forgave me for that game. He posted at least 20 times how he "should have won".... it kinda came off sounding like the villain in a Scooby Doo show... "I woulda won if it weren't for you meddling kids!"

 

[LetItSnow]

Oh I totally see your side as a villager, no doubt about it. 🙂 But as a neutral, I saw my side.

The best has been when I've been neutral and had to argue against my own philosophy. "Don't kill me! I promise I'm working with town! You should be lynching wolves, instead!"

You gotta play the cards you're dealt. 🙂

 

[Trilt]

.... which just justifies my position that village should eliminate neutral. By leaving neutral in, neutral had the chance to wreck the ending for the villagers. Had village gotten rid of the neutral, that wouldn't have been a possibility.

People can't think in terms of "Ohhhh.... they're playing for our side. They said so!" They're either on your side or they are the enemy. 🙂

With that said, I think neutral would be much less inclined to vote against you if they weren't used as lynch fodder. 😛 I mean, sure, some people might just switch to wolves' side for lols, but in this case Aloha prob wouldn't have gone anti-village without having actually been saved by a wolf. It's a level of intrigue.

I think just saying "they're not village, they need to die" just is kind of... lazy is the wrong word, but just something that needs to be considered in the context of the game. I usually think with neutrals (and a basically confirmed one, not just claimed) it's def worth thinking about. For example, in PBC's last game I sat on Jilary being chaos... actually flat out lied for her... which seems like it should be **** gameplay. But in context of that game and that situation I think it was a correct decision. And going after Aloha at any point earlier in this game would have wasted two lynches for basically zero village gain.

But like I've said a lot, I just enjoy the idea of neutral players more than most. And I *do* usually try to balance them out a bit. And I generally play for lolz more than anything so if misjudging screws me over who cares. 😛

 

[LetItSnow]

With that said, I think neutral would be much less inclined to vote against you if they weren't used as lynch fodder.

Sure. But you don't know that and you can't guarantee it and they have essentially zero incentive to do so. They are in it for themselves first and foremost, so leaving them around until late game opens up the chance for them to screw the village. It's just not a worthwhile risk for the village to take.

I don't think it's lazy thinking - it's practical thinking. 🙂 The more variables you remove as village, the easier it gets to beat the wolves. The more variables you leave in, the more confusion abounds, the better the wolves do. That's why SOV observed that wolves have a more difficult time with 'simpler' games.

But like I've said a lot, I just enjoy the idea of neutral players more than most. And I *do* usually try to balance them out a bit. And I generally play for lolz more than anything so if misjudging screws me over who cares. 😛

Ok, but what are you "balancing" them for? Balancing them so they can't dictate whether wolves/village wins? Balancing them so that they are powerful enough to survive to the end? Those are hugely different things, but both could be described as "balancing".

 

[Trilt]

Don't let it break your heart. For starters, you don't have to like what I like. But more importantly - I like the idea of more behind-the-scenes communication in a game, because I think it gets at the heart of WW - lies, lies, and more lies, and trying to figure who is lying. My point was that for whatever reason, it rarely seems to work.

Nothing inherently wrong with the complicated games. It's just a personal preference thing. But I think you sorta start to get at the difference when you described it as "I'm honestly better at game solving stuff like that." And when SOV said "I am also better at game solving/figuring out mechanics, than figuring out wolves."

To me - that's not WW. That's a game with complicated mechanics where the players are really battling the mod, rather than each other. It's a game run by a game-master that just happens to have two different factions (wolves/village), but where you're both also fighting against the game. WW is about an informed minority against an uninformed majority, and the tension in the game comes from that (informed vs uninformed) and from the built-in deception that pits players against each other. WW is about figuring out wolves, not mechanics. The more layers of 'mechanics' that go on top of that, the more it becomes about solving the GAME rather than solving the other PLAYERS, and the less that awesome tension exists. All this is just how I view it, not a right/wrong thing.

It's perfectly fine for you to like the complicated games where you're trying to solve the game, just like it's ok for me to prefer the purer player vs player games.

Oh my heart is fine, ha. Just an expression, I'm not actually distressed or anything... for sure people can have different preferences. I like complicated puzzles, so I like building complicated puzzles.

But for sure it's not classic WW. At some point it's probably barely WW at all, and it becomes much more of a logic game than deciding whether someone is talking sketchily or not.

 

[LetItSnow]

Oh my heart is fine, ha. Just an expression, I'm not actually distressed or anything... for sure people can have different preferences. I like complicated puzzles, so I like building complicated puzzles.

But for sure it's not classic WW. At some point it's probably barely WW at all, and it becomes much more of a logic game than deciding whether someone is talking sketchily or not.

Exactly! And that's what I mourn. The best WW games have classic brawls with people shouting at each other because they're convinced they're lying when they really aren't or ... etc. Or some super long-game play like WTF and the damn Car. But it's essentially player vs player, trying to gauge the other person's honesty.

I like complicated puzzles, too. Just not in my WW. 🙂

 

[Trilt]

Sure. But you don't know that and you can't guarantee it and they have essentially zero incentive to do so. They are in it for themselves first and foremost, so leaving them around until late game opens up the chance for them to screw the village. It's just not a worthwhile risk for the village to take.

I don't think it's lazy thinking - it's practical thinking. 🙂 The more variables you remove as village, the easier it gets to beat the wolves. The more variables you leave in, the more confusion abounds, the better the wolves do. That's why SOV observed that wolves have a more difficult time with 'simpler' games.



Ok, but what are you "balancing" them for? Balancing them so they can't dictate whether wolves/village wins? Balancing them so that they are powerful enough to survive to the end? Those are hugely different things, but both could be described as "balancing".

Balancing so they affect sides somewhat equally, and have to play their cards right to avoid not pissing either off and getting killed. 😛 I don't usually aim to get people to a certain particular point in the game... that sort of "can only be killed after x remaining" or whatnot is just not really my style.

My goal with Aloha having a kill avoidance was honestly mostly just so she didn't get off the cuff killed early and the dead have nothing to do. It didn't play out in this game, but Aloha having a line to the dead in this game could have had serious positive benefits to the village... imagine if an affiliation seer died without their results outed, or if FB could have sent back tracking stuff. It's a strong positive. But then she also had a line from the wolves, so a possible source of false info, and the Ham radio which I thought would mostly be a wash and possibly distractor channel.

Iunno. Aloha played with cards very close to her chest and it didn't end up too interesting but I think it could have. 🙂

 

[DVMDream]

Exactly! And that's what I mourn. The best WW games have classic brawls with people shouting at each other because they're convinced they're lying when they really aren't or ... etc. Or some super long-game play like WTF and the damn Car. But it's essentially player vs player, trying to gauge the other person's honesty.

I like complicated puzzles, too. Just not in my WW. 🙂

Classic brawls, I have no idea what you are taking about. ....


And @WhtsThFrequency, I got the CAAARRRRRRR!!! I'll never forget this moment, seriously one of my top ww memories. 🙂

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

LOL. I swear, at least 80% of the time I am tagged in games I'm not playing, it was because of that car.

I dunno man, that last minute shootout in the comics game when I was Batman turned wolf and arguing against the Flash for lynch with only 1 other villager....and won....that was still my favorite memory (and not out of bragging, because of how badly I was freaking out that the last villager would vote for the other guy. I almost screamed when I saw the vote 😆 )

 

[Trilt]

And since I've been (very voluntarily) pulled into a game design discussion, I guess here's where I come from:

A lot of games that are kind of simple, mostly vanilla but still have a theme suffer somewhat (I think) from the themeing. But I still love themes for the storybuilding aspect, and as a springboard for ideas.

Because hey, if I'm doing Animorphs, I expect Visser 1 and Visser 3 as baddies and it's not really consistent with canon for them not to be. But then the game can be "broken" by basically pushing for role reveals until you find someone with a weak one, then killing them. And okay, you can say that you shouldn't just go straight to role revealing, but truly, if the info is out there, there's little incentive not to. So if you're a wolf and being pushed on, it becomes somewhat dependent on you being able to make up a role that seems plausible and that's not really the core of WW either, you know? Even if it can lead to highly amusing Lemon Party situations. And on SDN, I think a lot of people play our typical games with a little bit of suspension of being hardcore, because we know it would break the game as we've evolved it here. It's why when Lupin gets a communication role and can gain the trust of half the field, she's terrifying. Because she's not playing with that little bit of suspension, and it makes it extremely tough on wolves.

So as a mod, what can you do? That's basically the question I've tried to answer with every game I've made. But until this game, I've tried to answer it while still maintaining our general tradition of having almost everyone have a role and ability, because people (including myself) generally like that. And I also work within my preferences. I personally don't like when the moderator flat out lies... a la STL affiliation items - I think they're false more often than they're true - or completely unrelated covers, a la Mark Warner seering as Dr. Adams in the House game. I want things to make sense and be consistent with the themeing, so I design around that.

Examples; Rick & Morty, multiple Ricks and Morties to hide in and a couple converts. Pokemon, lots of converts. Favourite Things had such a loose theme that cover roles should have been fairly easy. Minecraft roles mostly meant nothing and some were even pointedly misleading. Animorphs the baddies could hide in their morphs or the game items. And in many of the complicated ones (truly, I think of Animorphs and Pokemon as my most "puzzle-like" games, and they were designed within the same couple months) there were hints hidden in the design that would have had very big impacts on the game if people had read into things. I think of the fact that when Persian died in Pokemon, it was revealed that she could convert one human player... and someone gave a killing item to a human that night, leading to a triple kill and a wolf win. Or in Animorphs, I went out of my way to say that day PMing was an ability of andalities, and then when the andalite baddie claimed it nobody picked up on that. They're little, and they're definitely not classic WW, but I find it fun to design and when people really take the time and try to figure it out, it's so rewarding.

I rarely put things into games for no reason. Sometimes, though. I did like that jukebox in Minecraft. 😉 (nsfw)

Anyway. This was definitely an easier game to run (which was nice when life hit the fan partway through), and I'm very happy that people had fun with it despite it being so vanilla. I wish we'd had a little more discussion, as it was very quiet at times. But all in all happy with it. 🙂 Now someone needs to get rolling on another!

 

[SummerTheLynx]

And since I've been (very voluntarily) pulled into a game design discussion, I guess here's where I come from:

A lot of games that are kind of simple, mostly vanilla but still have a theme suffer somewhat (I think) from the themeing. But I still love themes for the storybuilding aspect, and as a springboard for ideas.

Because hey, if I'm doing Animorphs, I expect Visser 1 and Visser 3 as baddies and it's not really consistent with canon for them not to be. But then the game can be "broken" by basically pushing for role reveals until you find someone with a weak one, then killing them. And okay, you can say that you shouldn't just go straight to role revealing, but truly, if the info is out there, there's little incentive not to. So if you're a wolf and being pushed on, it becomes somewhat dependent on you being able to make up a role that seems plausible and that's not really the core of WW either, you know? Even if it can lead to highly amusing Lemon Party situations. And on SDN, I think a lot of people play our typical games with a little bit of suspension of being hardcore, because we know it would break the game as we've evolved it here. It's why when Lupin gets a communication role and can gain the trust of half the field, she's terrifying. Because she's not playing with that little bit of suspension, and it makes it extremely tough on wolves.

So as a mod, what can you do? That's basically the question I've tried to answer with every game I've made. But until this game, I've tried to answer it while still maintaining our general tradition of having almost everyone have a role and ability, because people (including myself) generally like that. And I also work within my preferences. I personally don't like when the moderator flat out lies... a la STL affiliation items - I think they're false more often than they're true - or completely unrelated covers, a la Mark Warner seering as Dr. Adams in the House game. I want things to make sense and be consistent with the themeing, so I design around that.

Examples; Rick & Morty, multiple Ricks and Morties to hide in and a couple converts. Pokemon, lots of converts. Favourite Things had such a loose theme that cover roles should have been fairly easy. Minecraft roles mostly meant nothing and some were even pointedly misleading. Animorphs the baddies could hide in their morphs or the game items. And in many of the complicated ones (truly, I think of Animorphs and Pokemon as my most "puzzle-like" games, and they were designed within the same couple months) there were hints hidden in the design that would have had very big impacts on the game if people had read into things. I think of the fact that when Persian died in Pokemon, it was revealed that she could convert one human player... and someone gave a killing item to a human that night, leading to a triple kill and a wolf win. Or in Animorphs, I went out of my way to say that day PMing was an ability of andalities, and then when the andalite baddie claimed it nobody picked up on that. They're little, and they're definitely not classic WW, but I find it fun to design and when people really take the time and try to figure it out, it's so rewarding.

I rarely put things into games for no reason. Sometimes, though. I did like that jukebox in Minecraft. 😉 (nsfw)

Anyway. This was definitely an easier game to run (which was nice when life hit the fan partway through), and I'm very happy that people had fun with it despite it being so vanilla. I wish we'd had a little more discussion, as it was very quiet at times. But all in all happy with it. 🙂 Now someone needs to get rolling on another!

To be fair, everyone knows I loathe affiliation items, exclude item makers from making them, and criticize mods that use accurate ones. so if anyone has bought into the fact that an affiliation item in my game is a completely, always, without fail real thing, then they deserve to be tricked.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Examples; Rick & Morty, multiple Ricks and Morties to hide in and a couple converts. Pokemon, lots of converts. Favourite Things had such a loose theme that cover roles should have been fairly easy. Minecraft roles mostly meant nothing and some were even pointedly misleading. Animorphs the baddies could hide in their morphs or the game items. And in many of the complicated ones (truly, I think of Animorphs and Pokemon as my most "puzzle-like" games, and they were designed within the same couple months) there were hints hidden in the design that would have had very big impacts on the game if people had read into things. I think of the fact that when Persian died in Pokemon, it was revealed that she could convert one human player... and someone gave a killing item to a human that night, leading to a triple kill and a wolf win. Or in Animorphs, I went out of my way to say that day PMing was an ability of andalities, and then when the andalite baddie claimed it nobody picked up on that. They're little, and they're definitely not classic WW, but I find it fun to design and when people really take the time and try to figure it out, it's so rewarding.

**** Pokemon. I will forever be bitter that I was lynched (first one in the game I might add) because no one would explain Pokemon types or land-types or whatever the eff they were with me

 

[Trilt]

To be fair, everyone knows I loathe affiliation items, exclude item makers from making them, and criticize mods that use accurate ones. so if anyone has bought into the fact that an affiliation item in my game is a completely, always, without fail real thing, then they deserve to be tricked.

It's just a matter of working with the info you have. Usually affiliation items aren't lying... until they are, and thoroughly **** people over. Incredibles lol.

**** Pokemon. I will forever be bitter that I was lynched (first one in the game I might add) because no one would explain Pokemon types or land-types or whatever the eff they were with me

This was a different game but I accept your bitterness. 😛 That one was way before my time.

 

[KCgophervet]

It's just a matter of working with the info you have. Usually affiliation items aren't lying... until they are, and thoroughly **** people over. Incredibles lol.

This was a different game but I accept your bitterness.That one was way before my time.

Gah incredibles. I was so psyched about my role and ability only to find out it just led to me falsely clearing wolves left and right. So disheartening.

Thanks for the sub in trilt! I had fun 🙂

Sent from my VS876 using SDN mobile

 

[LetItSnow]

Because hey, if I'm doing Animorphs, I expect Visser 1 and Visser 3 as baddies and it's not really consistent with canon for them not to be. But then the game can be "broken" by basically pushing for role reveals until you find someone with a weak one, then killing them.

Right. That's why I think WW has suffered here at SDN - people have their favorite book/movie/etc, and they so badly want to make a WW game out of it ... even if it isn't really a great fit. So they stuff a theme into WW and then try to make it work, rather than looking for themes that lend themselves naturally to WW.

But until this game, I've tried to answer it while still maintaining our general tradition of having almost everyone have a role and ability,

Hm. That actually isn't a tradition - if you go way back you'll find it was much more common NOT to have so many roles and abilities. That's - in the scheme of SDN WW and in particular pre-vet WW - a relatively new thing for 'everyone' to have a role/ability. But we now have so many new (newer, newish, whatever) players that only know that type of set-up that nowadays you hear right away on day 1 from people "Oh, I'm just vanilla, I can't contribute". Like being vanilla is some sort of horrible catastrophe. It used to be normal.

Pokemon, lots of converts.

Pokemon was kinda a perfect example of breaking a game in order to stay true to the theme, right? With my whole chaos-converted-but-not-really-converted character? I'm not sure I've ever seen @SummerTheLynx so livid. 🙂

there were hints hidden in the design that would have had very big impacts on the game if people had read into things.

I think a lot of times the 'hints' that mods think they are leaving are much more obvious to them than they are to the players. Maybe 80-90% of the time, even. (Note: The examples you gave don't fall into that category.)

They're little, and they're definitely not classic WW, but I find it fun to design and when people really take the time and try to figure it out, it's so rewarding.

Yeah, but I think those are mechanisms that work well in WW, because they stay true to the tension of wolves vs villagers and catching someone in a lie.

Anyway. This was definitely an easier game to run (which was nice when life hit the fan partway through), and I'm very happy that people had fun with it despite it being so vanilla. I wish we'd had a little more discussion, as it was very quiet at times.

I think part of the discussion thing was holidays. A number of people probably had exams, and then were traveling, and ... etc. It was a well-built game that was played generally well and -- all by itself with no mod coaxing -- came down to a final shoot-out. Can't ask for much more than that.

I like your designs (ok, most of them - I could have lived without my Pokemon role), Trilt. Don't take my comments negatively just because they are - in the purest sense of the word - critical.

 

[Trilt]

Right. That's why I think WW has suffered here at SDN - people have their favorite book/movie/etc, and they so badly want to make a WW game out of it ... even if it isn't really a great fit. So they stuff a theme into WW and then try to make it work, rather than looking for themes that lend themselves naturally to WW.



Hm. That actually isn't a tradition - if you go way back you'll find it was much more common NOT to have so many roles and abilities. That's - in the scheme of SDN WW and in particular pre-vet WW - a relatively new thing for 'everyone' to have a role/ability. But we now have so many new (newer, newish, whatever) players that only know that type of set-up that nowadays you hear right away on day 1 from people "Oh, I'm just vanilla, I can't contribute". Like being vanilla is some sort of horrible catastrophe. It used to be normal.



Pokemon was kinda a perfect example of breaking a game in order to stay true to the theme, right? With my whole chaos-converted-but-not-really-converted character? I'm not sure I've ever seen @SummerTheLynx so livid. 🙂



I think a lot of times the 'hints' that mods think they are leaving are much more obvious to them than they are to the players. Maybe 80-90% of the time, even. (Note: The examples you gave don't fall into that category.)



Yeah, but I think those are mechanisms that work well in WW, because they stay true to the tension of wolves vs villagers and catching someone in a lie.



I think part of the discussion thing was holidays. A number of people probably had exams, and then were traveling, and ... etc. It was a well-built game that was played generally well and -- all by itself with no mod coaxing -- came down to a final shoot-out. Can't ask for much more than that.

I like your designs (ok, most of them - I could have lived without my Pokemon role), Trilt. Don't take my comments negatively just because they are - in the purest sense of the word - critical.

I *have* actually read way back in prevet WW history... which is why I was shocked to have missed WWhores... and having individually named roles (thus, wolf ability to lie about role being important) definitely goes pretty far back. And our hodge podge love of lotsa abilities perhaps not quite as far but does seem to reach deep.

Maybe we've gone in cyclical waves (one might even say loops, ha) and kind of done more vanillaish games up and down over the years. But having poked through a lot of them, I really think, at least on this forum, having individual roles +/- abilities seems more "traditional" than not. Maybe not outside of prevet because I admit to only nudging through some older jdh/docE games in that realm.

And again, don't worry, I'm not taking this negatively. My special snowflake is not melted. I just like to think on this stuff (obviously... sunk enough time into it in the last year) and thus, like to yak about it. 🙂

 

[dyachei]

@StartingoverVet it had nothing to do with you.

Just a lot going on in my life and a friend had nearly taken their life the night before I dropped out. He's doing better now.

 

[hazelmoo]

See, I'd be bored if all games were vanilla and lying only. Maybe they aren't "true WW", but for me, they're much more fun. What some people call "WW taking a hit", I call "WW being more fun and creative to mod and play". When you have a book or movie you really love, and can create a game that represents that love and that can be shared with other people... I feel like that also has a place here.

I like more games with fun themes, roles, and abilities. But that's just me and everyone has their preference.

 

[Skimble]

One of my most favorite games to play was Dy's back to basics game that had long days and a post minimum. I really enjoy the problem solving aspect and catching people in lies and it's easy to get lazy about that when there are 5000 abilities in the game. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy abilities too, but abilities or not, the game is much more fun when everyone is actively participating and talking. I used to be super duper quiet in the beginning of games, but I'm trying to get out of that, though the first day or two are difficult because there isn't much to talk about.

 

[dyachei]

One of my most favorite games to play was Dy's back to basics game that had long days and a post minimum. I really enjoy the problem solving aspect and catching people in lies and it's easy to get lazy about that when there are 5000 abilities in the game. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy abilities too, but abilities or not, the game is much more fun when everyone is actively participating and talking. I used to be super duper quiet in the beginning of games, but I'm trying to get out of that, though the first day or two are difficult because there isn't much to talk about.

I can run another anytime

 

[LetItSnow]

One of my most favorite games to play was Dy's back to basics game that had long days and a post minimum. I really enjoy the problem solving aspect and catching people in lies and it's easy to get lazy about that when there are 5000 abilities in the game. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy abilities too, but abilities or not, the game is much more fun when everyone is actively participating and talking. I used to be super duper quiet in the beginning of games, but I'm trying to get out of that, though the first day or two are difficult because there isn't much to talk about.

I think there's a personality element that comes into play, too. Some people really don't enjoy the confrontational part of the game, and any suggestion they might be lying causes them genuine distress. But that is the core of WW. It's probably overgeneralizing, but I wouldn't be surprised if those people fall more into the group that likes the heavy-mechanics, heavy-ability games where it's more players vs mod than players vs players.

I also think it's a mistake to read my comments as saying games should to be completely vanilla. There is nothing wrong with interesting mechanics, and the game can stay true to WW with them (Trilt has proved that). I like having a role ability as much as anyone.

 

[StartingoverVet]

I think there's a personality element that comes into play, too. Some people really don't enjoy the confrontational part of the game, and any suggestion they might be lying causes them genuine distress. But that is the core of WW. It's probably overgeneralizing, but I wouldn't be surprised if those people fall more into the group that likes the heavy-mechanics, heavy-ability games where it's more players vs mod than players vs players.

I also think it's a mistake to read my comments as saying games should to be completely vanilla. There is nothing wrong with interesting mechanics, and the game can stay true to WW with them (Trilt has proved that). I like having a role ability as much as anyone.

Well.... we all know that can't be universal as I am definitely not adverse to lying now am I?

 

[LetItSnow]

Well.... we all know that can't be universal as I am definitely not adverse to lying now am I?

Right. Like I said "overgeneralizing" and "fall more into the group".

 

[StartingoverVet]

Right. Like I said "overgeneralizing" and "fall more into the group".

I know. Just having fun here. ....

I have read everyone's comments and I am assimilating the info. I have a general idea for what I want in my next game... almost motivated to work on it, if only I didn't have 3 other projects I have been dragging my arse procrastinating about.