I go to a medical which recently had a cheating case brought up. I wondered about other's experiences with people cheating in their medical schools? What happens? Do people get caught? Do people get punished?
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I'm not sure how prevalent cheating in medical school is but during orientation we got a lot of lectures about it and were told some stories of several unfortunate souls who tried and failed.I go to a medical which recently had a cheating case brought up. I wondered about other's experiences with people cheating in their medical schools? What happens? Do people get caught? Do people get punished?
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Do people get caught? Do people get punished?
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.I think residency directors would care MUCH more about professionalismism issues on your file than about about a low grade in a course.
I go to a medical which recently had a cheating case brought up. I wondered about other's experiences with people cheating in their medical schools? What happens? Do people get caught? Do people get punished?
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Our class had some accusations of cheating brought up in relation to anatomy practicals. The class was divideed up and took them sequentially and you were held on your honor, to not tell anyone what structures were tagged on the test. There was a minor controversy if people were breaking that law, but it kinda blew over quick.
Surveys show that something like 60% (if I recall correctly) of undergrad students admit to cheating. It is hardly surprising that some med students cheat.
I agree with some of the comments above regarding administrations attitudes about cheating. They may say otherwise, but they would prefer not to have to deal with it. Thus, they will make all kinds of lofty statements about honesty but they really don't like to be faced with all the unpleasantness that arises when someone cheats.
I used to be a prof before I went to med school. For a long time, I never really paid any attention to cheating. I never cheated and I imagined that few people did. A few students complained to me about cheating so I started doing things to catch cheaters. For example, I would hand out three versions of an exam and the questions would be identical except for one numerical change. You would find quite a few people with multiple correct answers -- for the wrong version.
It is a pain in the ass when you catch someone. They bitch and moan and you have to go through all kinds of hoopla. I also wasted a lot time soul searching and second guessing. It is no fun to accuse someone of cheating. One person was an honor student and had been admitted to a top 5 law school. It is not pleasant to wreck a young person's career. You wonder, 'Did I make a mistake?'
I did have one funny case. This guy had put down three answers in a row that corresponded to the wrong version (3 in a row was my minimum criteria). The second answer was zero and the third answer was 22. My school had a group that reviewed cheating cases and they supported every case I sent except for this one. They said, "You know Mr. X, the last guy you referred. We have reservations about this one. He is clearly not the brightest bulb in the chandelier and probably isn't smart enough to make this up. " So it turns out that he claims he had written zero because he had no clue (fair enough) and 22 because it was his "lucky number". I said, "Come one, you expect me to buy that?" No! I was born at 2:22 in the morning and I always use it! I can prove it! So he brought in his birth certificate and about 4 sports jerseys all with the number 22 plus multiple team photos with his number 22. I let him off.
But, I will tell you, the admin is generally not happy to hear about cheating. They would rather make speeches.
Personally, I would rather not have grades. Learning is fun. If people need grades for motivation they really don't belong in a university.
Our anatomy lab was held in two large attached (but separate) rooms, and we took our exam one half at a time, so you were in a room with a fourth of the class. One half of the class took the exam first, and immediately afterwards, the other half of the class walked in as the first half walked out. You'd have to try REALLY hard to cheat even a little bit, and I'd imagine nobody did. The reason that I think it would be very stupid to cheat, is that you have very little guarantee that the other person knows the right answer.That's often more an issue of bad exam procedure design then cheating. I've seen many situations of people talking to others in the hall/library about exams they both just took, without being cognizant of the fact that there might be others within earshot who hadn't taken it yet. Nobody doing anything intentionally wrong, but answers getting out. Profs really need to switch things up to prevent those inadvertent incidents.
That's an understatement. You can still get into most specialties with mere passing grades in pre-clinical years (if you do well in everything else). But with cheating on your record you are going to be lucky if they let you get an MD at all.
I'm sure at my school they would be more than willing to overlook a little cheating every now and then. After all this is only a professional school.
They did, however, tell my entire class that we were going to be unprofessional and incompetent physicians during 2nd year because we failed to return chairs to their original places after small group sessions. Oh, and anytime you don't settle into your chairs immediately when a lecturer is ready to start you run the risk of getting a 5 minute lecture on what professionalism really is.
But cheating? No big deal, I'm sure.
Many profs are too lazy to write new exams. Thus, your 'performance' depends on who you know. I used to post all my old exams on a website so that everyone was on an equal footing. In the end, all this crap takes a lot of fun out of what should be a very enjoyable job. Thus, it is not surprising that people cut corners. Also, teaching doesn't really count. I had a friend who won a teaching award and his department chairman warned him that, since he got the award, he would probably not get tenure. Read the book 'Profscam'. It is a bit hysterical but basically on target.
I don't admire your prof. While it may appear that he was being fair (and in a sense he was) he was really offering a bribe for your silence.
She said that was a HUGE breech of the honor code and people always forgot. If you didn't have time to examine a patient just admit it, don't claim to have done a complete physical exam if you hadn't. Good to know I thought.
Question: we all agree on the obvious forms of cheating, like directly cheating off someone or stealing their work. But like other people said, do you consider it cheating when people get "inside info" that other people don't? In my class some people had "big brothers/sisters" (not formally assigned, just close friends they made) that gave them tests and stuff that were unavailable to others. Unsurprisingly a lot of these people did extremely well. Many of them were really smart, too, so I'm not saying that's the only reason. As time went on more and more people got access to the tests but not everyone. You may say "so what" but that does impact your residency decisions and your future. If you were someone who got "inside info" you probably say "them's the breaks" but if not I can definitely see how that's considered "cheating." Also the people who say "them's the breaks" would probably complain just as much if they were on the outside group.
Unless the administration has banned the use of these study materials or tips, then I would definitely not consider it cheating. If there's really a problem, someone should mention this to the faculty and request old exams, at the least. Our physiology department crushed this problem by posting the last 3-4 years of physiology exams right online, including the final. It was very helpful, but I know it meant extra work for all the phys faculty, because they have to write new questions every year.Question: we all agree on the obvious forms of cheating, like directly cheating off someone or stealing their work. But like other people said, do you consider it cheating when people get "inside info" that other people don't? In my class some people had "big brothers/sisters" (not formally assigned, just close friends they made) that gave them tests and stuff that were unavailable to others. Unsurprisingly a lot of these people did extremely well. Many of them were really smart, too, so I'm not saying that's the only reason. As time went on more and more people got access to the tests but not everyone. You may say "so what" but that does impact your residency decisions and your future. If you were someone who got "inside info" you probably say "them's the breaks" but if not I can definitely see how that's considered "cheating." Also the people who say "them's the breaks" would probably complain just as much if they were on the outside group.
As I recall, there was a prominent journalism school that had an anything goes approach on the theory that a student's ability to solve problems depends, in part, in their ability to network and find outside sources of information.
but I know it meant extra work for all the phys faculty, because they have to write new questions every year.
There was an article in the NY Times a few months back about the definition of cheating. As I recall, there was a prominent journalism school that had an anything goes approach on the theory that a student's ability to solve problems depends, in part, in their ability to network and find outside sources of information. They were quite happy for a student to find an outside expert to do an assignment, or to collaborate via the net or cell because it showed good networking skills which is as valuable as knowing the information yourself. The theory goes that it is as important to measure who is "in the loop" as it is to know who knows the material. I get their point, but there are plenty of times were networking ability will be measured and rewarded. Universities should stick to measuring knowledge of content. In my view, these practices are more a measure of laziness of faculty and administrators than a measure of networking ability.
Surveys show that something like 60% (if I recall correctly) of undergrad students admit to cheating. It is hardly surprising that some med students cheat.
I agree with some of the comments above regarding administrations attitudes about cheating. They may say otherwise, but they would prefer not to have to deal with it. Thus, they will make all kinds of lofty statements about honesty but they really don't like to be faced with all the unpleasantness that arises when someone cheats.
I used to be a prof before I went to med school. For a long time, I never really paid any attention to cheating. I never cheated and I imagined that few people did. A few students complained to me about cheating so I started doing things to catch cheaters. For example, I would hand out three versions of an exam and the questions would be identical except for one numerical change. You would find quite a few people with multiple correct answers -- for the wrong version.
It is a pain in the ass when you catch someone. They bitch and moan and you have to go through all kinds of hoopla. I also wasted a lot time soul searching and second guessing. It is no fun to accuse someone of cheating. One person was an honor student and had been admitted to a top 5 law school. It is not pleasant to wreck a young person's career. You wonder, 'Did I make a mistake?'
I did have one funny case. This guy had put down three answers in a row that corresponded to the wrong version (3 in a row was my minimum criteria). The second answer was zero and the third answer was 22. My school had a group that reviewed cheating cases and they supported every case I sent except for this one. They said, "You know Mr. X, the last guy you referred. We have reservations about this one. He is clearly not the brightest bulb in the chandelier and probably isn't smart enough to make this up. " So it turns out that he claims he had written zero because he had no clue (fair enough) and 22 because it was his "lucky number". I said, "Come one, you expect me to buy that?" No! I was born at 2:22 in the morning and I always use it! I can prove it! So he brought in his birth certificate and about 4 sports jerseys all with the number 22 plus multiple team photos with his number 22. I let him off.
But, I will tell you, the admin is generally not happy to hear about cheating. They would rather make speeches.
Personally, I would rather not have grades. Learning is fun. If people need grades for motivation they really don't belong in a university.


If your school grades on a curve then the honor code will be strictly enforced by all students.
I think it's pretty clear that he meant that their cheating just doesn't have a direct effect on him with no curve. He wasn't rationalizing anyone's behavior.You mean that you don't mind cheating if there's no curve? That's great rationalization going on there. I've met lots of people from college and medical school who think that way. "If I approve of the test format and think it's fair, then I will follow the rules, otherwise I am justified to do whatever I want."
so in the recent case at my school, the person was cleared at the end of the summer. the student insisted that he/she didn't cheat, but the school didn't believe him/her.
the person isn't in my class anymore but there seem to hard feelings and there are still a lot of crappy things being said about the student...
i don't know whether or not the person cheated but i figure he/she should be able to come back without feeling bad or worried...

you never said what happened!
What kind of details were you looking for?
so in the recent case at my school, the person was cleared at the end of the summer. the student insisted that he/she didn't cheat, but the school didn't believe him/her.
the person isn't in my class anymore but there seem to hard feelings and there are still a lot of crappy things being said about the student...
i don't know whether or not the person cheated but i figure he/she should be able to come back without feeling bad or worried...
(those IR machines print dates on the scans you know).
Whoops! that's pretty funny.You know, someone at our school is coming back after being accused of cheating. I can count on one hand the number of people in the entire school who thinks he/she didn't cheat (I'm not one of them). I kind of feel sorry for this person because I don't think he/she realizes just how many people are against his/her return.
Don't count on it. I bet the person does realize it. Imagine how that feels...
Have you considered the possibility that the person didn't cheat?
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