Cheating in medical school

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Medi mini mici

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I go to a medical which recently had a cheating case brought up. I wondered about other's experiences with people cheating in their medical schools? What happens? Do people get caught? Do people get punished?

:eek:

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I go to a medical which recently had a cheating case brought up. I wondered about other's experiences with people cheating in their medical schools? What happens? Do people get caught? Do people get punished?

:eek:
I'm not sure how prevalent cheating in medical school is but during orientation we got a lot of lectures about it and were told some stories of several unfortunate souls who tried and failed.
 
this has come up recently at my school too...i wanna hear more
 
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I've heard that some people at my school may have cheated, but personally I think it's just not worth the consequences...I think residency directors would care MUCH more about professionalismism issues on your file than about about a low grade in a course.
 
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Do people get caught? Do people get punished?

:eek:

I'm sure at my school they would be more than willing to overlook a little cheating every now and then. After all this is only a professional school.

They did, however, tell my entire class that we were going to be unprofessional and incompetent physicians during 2nd year because we failed to return chairs to their original places after small group sessions. Oh, and anytime you don't settle into your chairs immediately when a lecturer is ready to start you run the risk of getting a 5 minute lecture on what professionalism really is.

But cheating? No big deal, I'm sure.
 
.I think residency directors would care MUCH more about professionalismism issues on your file than about about a low grade in a course.

That's an understatement. You can still get into most specialties with mere passing grades in pre-clinical years (if you do well in everything else). But with cheating on your record you are going to be lucky if they let you get an MD at all.
 
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I go to a medical which recently had a cheating case brought up. I wondered about other's experiences with people cheating in their medical schools? What happens? Do people get caught? Do people get punished?

:eek:

Over the course of my four years of medical school, there were three confirmed cases of cheating. All of the students involved were dismissed; one was a first semester fourth year who submitted a paper that he did not write. One person attempted to sue the school for reinstatement without success. He ended up paying the court costs for the lawsuit.

Were there others who cheated and were not caught? Probably, but I don't care as long as I was not the person cheating. I am only responsible for my behavior. Whether caught or not, cheating doesn't benefit the person in the long run because if you cheat and get away with it, you cheat again. At some point, you get caught.

Once trust is lost, it's sad. That fourth year medical student who was dismissed didn't have to cheat. He could have simply told the professor that he needed extra time and turned in a late paper. (Several people turned in late papers and are now have MDs and a career). It was a stupid mistake that was very costly.

The last I heard, he tried to get into an offshore school and ended up retaking third + fourth year off shore. I don't know if he was able to practice in this country but I doubt if many states will license a person who was dismissed from medical school for academic dishonesty (they DO ask on your license application) let alone get into a residency program through ERAS as he would have to explain why he was dismissed.

Bottom line: I don't think that cheating is worth it not matter how compelling the reason.
 
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Hm. Perhaps those on this thread would lend their thoughts to my poll thread? I'm trying to gauge exam policies across the country and seeing if the general thought is that tough policies are good because they discourage cheating, or if these policies are bad because they assume med students aren't honest (and may even make them feel ill will towards med-ed admin).
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=435781

Thoughts? My general belief is that students are entering a profession that relies on a lot of autonomy in patient care, and honesty in research/etc... so wouldn't it be better to treat them as professionals and "condition" them to the way we prefer them to conduct their business in the future?

Maybe it's just me...:laugh:
 
My school supposedly had some cheating issue a few years ago, but I don't know what happened. I haven't heard anything about cheating with my class. The stakes are way too high, so I don't know why anyone would do it. I did hear rumors about people cheating in premed classes at my undergrad, and lots of these people were premeds who wound up in med school. Also, some guy who graduated a year ahead of me got kicked out of his medical school for cheating -- apparently he tried to hack into a professor's computer and steal a test. The last I heard he got into a school in Ireland and was starting over. I wonder how upfront he was with the Irish school about the cheating incident because Irish school don't take just anybody. And yeah, he's at the point where he should be in residency now, but I have no clue how that worked out for him.
 
"Cheating is bad. Richard Basehart, is good".

Our class had some accusations of cheating brought up in relation to anatomy practicals. The class was divideed up and took them sequentially and you were held on your honor, to not tell anyone what structures were tagged on the test. There was a minor controversy if people were breaking that law, but it kinda blew over quick.
 
We've had rumors, but no confirmed cases, which was really frustrating - especially since they peaked around the 3/4 mark of our last block when we were all exhausted. All the rumors do is bring down the morale of the entire class because from the point you hear the rumors you spend your time thinking of who MIGHT be doing the alleged cheating, which just leads to mistrust. Even if you say "ok, someone who is cheating isn't affecting me" . . . well, this is conceivably true IF your class is not graded on a curve BUT it isn't ENTIRELY true because people in EVERY medical school that are cheating and not getting caught are going to be the people you're competing with for residencies - and THEY will have the H instead of the P which might be the tipping point for the RD.

Then again, I'd LIKE to think that people who would be willing to cheat would have other flaws that would show up during the clinical years to make them less likely to do well then - i.e. not actually KNOW anything so that when they're pimped they get the questions wrong and end up with bad evals. . . but you never know if that pans out.

Mostly it just bothers me that these people probably cheated to get in to medical school and are therefore displacing other hardworking and conceivably smart but maybe not so privileged (read: moneyed) or dishonest people that actually deserve to be there.
 
Our class had some accusations of cheating brought up in relation to anatomy practicals. The class was divideed up and took them sequentially and you were held on your honor, to not tell anyone what structures were tagged on the test. There was a minor controversy if people were breaking that law, but it kinda blew over quick.

That's often more an issue of bad exam procedure design then cheating. I've seen many situations of people talking to others in the hall/library about exams they both just took, without being cognizant of the fact that there might be others within earshot who hadn't taken it yet. Nobody doing anything intentionally wrong, but answers getting out. Profs really need to switch things up to prevent those inadvertent incidents.
 
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I was accused of cheating by a cheater once in grad school. During an exam time our prof noticed another student and I were sitting a little too close. When I take exams I really absorb myself in them and don't notice other people around me. He approached her first I guess (unbeknownst to me until after) and she said I kept moving close to her to look off her exam.

So the next exam the prof made me sit in the front of the room (seating for 75 but a class of 20 - pretty obvious why at that point). I ended up getting a 99% on the exam and the other girl failed. She was asked to stay after the next class and I never knew her punishment, if there was one, but the prof told me about her accusation and why he singled me out during the 2nd test (and apologized) after the 2nd test was graded.

I never talked to my classmate again and the prof. graciously never paired us up for projects and such. She didn't graduate with us b/c her thesis was not completed - she was a slacker!!!!!!!

So be careful about cheaters. Sometimes they do a lot of damage!
 
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Surveys show that something like 60% (if I recall correctly) of undergrad students admit to cheating. It is hardly surprising that some med students cheat.

I agree with some of the comments above regarding administrations attitudes about cheating. They may say otherwise, but they would prefer not to have to deal with it. Thus, they will make all kinds of lofty statements about honesty but they really don't like to be faced with all the unpleasantness that arises when someone cheats.

I used to be a prof before I went to med school. For a long time, I never really paid any attention to cheating. I never cheated and I imagined that few people did. A few students complained to me about cheating so I started doing things to catch cheaters. For example, I would hand out three versions of an exam and the questions would be identical except for one numerical change. You would find quite a few people with multiple correct answers -- for the wrong version.

It is a pain in the ass when you catch someone. They bitch and moan and you have to go through all kinds of hoopla. I also wasted a lot time soul searching and second guessing. It is no fun to accuse someone of cheating. One person was an honor student and had been admitted to a top 5 law school. It is not pleasant to wreck a young person's career. You wonder, 'Did I make a mistake?'

I did have one funny case. This guy had put down three answers in a row that corresponded to the wrong version (3 in a row was my minimum criteria). The second answer was zero and the third answer was 22. My school had a group that reviewed cheating cases and they supported every case I sent except for this one. They said, "You know Mr. X, the last guy you referred. We have reservations about this one. He is clearly not the brightest bulb in the chandelier and probably isn't smart enough to make this up. " So it turns out that he claims he had written zero because he had no clue (fair enough) and 22 because it was his "lucky number". I said, "Come one, you expect me to buy that?" No! I was born at 2:22 in the morning and I always use it! I can prove it! So he brought in his birth certificate and about 4 sports jerseys all with the number 22 plus multiple team photos with his number 22. I let him off.

But, I will tell you, the admin is generally not happy to hear about cheating. They would rather make speeches.

Personally, I would rather not have grades. Learning is fun. If people need grades for motivation they really don't belong in a university.



cheating encourages cheating (at least for me). if i knew other people were cheating and getting away with it, i would be very tempted to cheat.
 
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I'm on the honor council at our school. The lightest consequence for cheating is going to be dropping you a letter grade and a letter in your dean's file. That's the lightest, obviously expulsion is always on the table.
 
I have personally seen my classmates cheat during anatomy practicals. All of us huddled around the cadavers, trying to pry through all the gunk to see exactly what the tag is encircling, and not paying enough attention to our clipboards and letting them dangle a bit.

I tutor for the physiology course at my school at the teacher did the same thing as the previous poster i.e. different versions of the exams w/o telling them and just subtly putting them in 3 separate piles when they got turned in. HALF the class failed, whereas previously the pass rate was around 85% :-(

Our female pharm teacher also found some notes in the girls' restroom once. Needless to say that put the kaibash (sp?) on restroom breaks. She even got a 1st year male student to go in the male restroom right then & there to see if there was anything in there as well.

As for them getting caught eventually. It MAY happen but who knows how many people they will hurt in the meantime. I say turn them in as soon as you witness it.
 
The biggest problem with 'cheating' is who defines it? Everyone has a definition of cheating where mine and yours may be very different...

I think everyong agrees that 'using outside material or obtaining answers from someone else during a scheduled test time is cheating'...but what about other times. Like say using someone elses notes? A 'big sibs' notes that perhaps they jotted down some info after a test to use later on the board exam? Or maybe one attending or upper resident goes over some material for a board exam or department exam, and then later a different attending finds your 'notes' and considers it cheating?


I say this because I was involved in a clerkship group where all of us was 'alleged' to have cheated on the departmental exam. We had a split campus, one of us had recieved notes from a friend on another campus after an attending there went over the test material. An attending on our campus saw these 'notes' (one of us took the notes to him to ask a question about it) he became furious and immediately assumed we had 'got all the answers' from a friend and was cheating. It was a big stink for a few weeks, some humiliation.... but in the end, we were in no trouble whatsoever except for being the 'scarlet C" group for a few more weeks...but it soon turned into a big joke.... Ironic enough, the attendings residents on our campus had all used the same notes before when they were students, and the attending from the other campus ended up getting the discussion about the incident since he was the one who started it all... several years previously it turned out. The saddest part was that I felt our attending owed us a big apology, which we never recieved....he turned at least two of us away completely from that department!

So cheating can be a very loose term and is open to much interpretation.

Use your head, dont do the obvious, and if you ever involved in something loosely as above, hang in there and rememeber that everyone is human and you will not be in any trouble if it ends up being an 'honest mistake'!
 
That's often more an issue of bad exam procedure design then cheating. I've seen many situations of people talking to others in the hall/library about exams they both just took, without being cognizant of the fact that there might be others within earshot who hadn't taken it yet. Nobody doing anything intentionally wrong, but answers getting out. Profs really need to switch things up to prevent those inadvertent incidents.
Our anatomy lab was held in two large attached (but separate) rooms, and we took our exam one half at a time, so you were in a room with a fourth of the class. One half of the class took the exam first, and immediately afterwards, the other half of the class walked in as the first half walked out. You'd have to try REALLY hard to cheat even a little bit, and I'd imagine nobody did. The reason that I think it would be very stupid to cheat, is that you have very little guarantee that the other person knows the right answer.


Apparently one of the third years was caught cheating on a shelf exam and expelled. It was supposedly a pretty flagrant violation too. You have to wonder how someone could get themselves $150,000 into a medical education only to blow it on a single stupid exam. Or handing in someone else's paper? I can see how someone might be liable to collaborate more than they should or copy little parts of something from someone else's work, but honestly, that's incredibly stupid (and obviously horribly unethical).

Besides, I have way too guilty of a conscience. I would be ridiculously paranoid about being discovered. Not worth the trouble!
 
That's an understatement. You can still get into most specialties with mere passing grades in pre-clinical years (if you do well in everything else). But with cheating on your record you are going to be lucky if they let you get an MD at all.

Hah- "mere passing grades." It seems like at my school they don't really give anything but pass or fail. Honors seems tough to attain.
 
This is not exactly cheating, but a similar issue. A lot of people studied old tests, but I never did. One of our microbiology tests was EXACTLY the same as the previous year's test. Everyone was done in about 20 minutes except myself and one other guy. I finished 20 minutes after everyone else and he 40. I thought the test was pretty tough. I went to meet my friends at one of their houses after the test like we always do and they were saying how easy the test was and that they know they aced it. They finally told me why it was so easy. The other guy (who got a C) and I (who got a B) went to the teacher and told him what happened. He just bumped our grades up to A's. I studied old tests for the rest of that class.
 
I'm sure at my school they would be more than willing to overlook a little cheating every now and then. After all this is only a professional school.

They did, however, tell my entire class that we were going to be unprofessional and incompetent physicians during 2nd year because we failed to return chairs to their original places after small group sessions. Oh, and anytime you don't settle into your chairs immediately when a lecturer is ready to start you run the risk of getting a 5 minute lecture on what professionalism really is.

But cheating? No big deal, I'm sure.

And here I thought it was only at school that they did this...."Professionalism" is the universal medicalschooladminspeak for BS excuse to get students to say/do anything.
 
Our school didn't really touch on it. A couple of fourth years who are on the student disciplinary committee spoke to us. They deal with minor transgressions against the honor code and do the research before its dealth with or handed to the admin if its beyond them.

One I didn't think of as cheating that they were very adamant about point out was during rotations. Not having enough time to examine a patient because you forgot or whatever, and then running in and copying off a previous exam so you have something to report to the attending when they get there. She said that was a HUGE breech of the honor code and people always forgot. If you didn't have time to examine a patient just admit it, don't claim to have done a complete physical exam if you hadn't. Good to know I thought.
 
Many profs are too lazy to write new exams. Thus, your 'performance' depends on who you know. I used to post all my old exams on a website so that everyone was on an equal footing. In the end, all this crap takes a lot of fun out of what should be a very enjoyable job. Thus, it is not surprising that people cut corners. Also, teaching doesn't really count. I had a friend who won a teaching award and his department chairman warned him that, since he got the award, he would probably not get tenure. Read the book 'Profscam'. It is a bit hysterical but basically on target.

I don't admire your prof. While it may appear that he was being fair (and in a sense he was) he was really offering a bribe for your silence.

Oh, I know. He was a nice guy, but it was time to retire because I just think he didn't really care anymore.
 
we got a guy in our class who has been caught cheating numerous times. i really dont know the details of most of what has been going on but from what i hear all he has to do is sit in the front row for exams. supposedly, none of this will be on his deans letter too. i dont know how he paid his way out of that one. it kind of blows too because this guy talks a lot of trash about how well he does in school and puts down other people.

ive seen some people trying to cheat during exams that never got caught. it sucks to know that people can stoop that low. oh well, im sure they all paid the price when it came time to study for step1.
 
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during orientation no one mentioned anything about cheating.

during undergrad i never saw anyone get caught for cheating, and the cheating was REALLY obvious.
 
Question: we all agree on the obvious forms of cheating, like directly cheating off someone or stealing their work. But like other people said, do you consider it cheating when people get "inside info" that other people don't? In my class some people had "big brothers/sisters" (not formally assigned, just close friends they made) that gave them tests and stuff that were unavailable to others. Unsurprisingly a lot of these people did extremely well. Many of them were really smart, too, so I'm not saying that's the only reason. As time went on more and more people got access to the tests but not everyone. You may say "so what" but that does impact your residency decisions and your future. If you were someone who got "inside info" you probably say "them's the breaks" but if not I can definitely see how that's considered "cheating." Also the people who say "them's the breaks" would probably complain just as much if they were on the outside group.
 
She said that was a HUGE breech of the honor code and people always forgot. If you didn't have time to examine a patient just admit it, don't claim to have done a complete physical exam if you hadn't. Good to know I thought.

Perhaps theoretically, it is a breach of the honor code, but based on my experience in rotations, this is done by 99% or residents and 99% of attendings. Ex: resident only listens to heart/lungs/abdomen of the new admit, but when filling out the form, checks normal for all the other systems including muskuloskeletal which no one EVER checks. Or attending who writes underneath the note: I have seen and examined the patient, agree with the resident assessment, when you know all he did was peek in and wave at the patient.
 
Question: we all agree on the obvious forms of cheating, like directly cheating off someone or stealing their work. But like other people said, do you consider it cheating when people get "inside info" that other people don't? In my class some people had "big brothers/sisters" (not formally assigned, just close friends they made) that gave them tests and stuff that were unavailable to others. Unsurprisingly a lot of these people did extremely well. Many of them were really smart, too, so I'm not saying that's the only reason. As time went on more and more people got access to the tests but not everyone. You may say "so what" but that does impact your residency decisions and your future. If you were someone who got "inside info" you probably say "them's the breaks" but if not I can definitely see how that's considered "cheating." Also the people who say "them's the breaks" would probably complain just as much if they were on the outside group.

This bothers me a lot. I was one of the unfortunates to have been outside of the loop of people passing around old exams. There was one test in which almost the entire class scored above a 90, while I barely passed it. It wasn't until later that I discovered that an old exam had been floating around and I missed it. The whole experience made me quite bitter with my classmates.
 
Question: we all agree on the obvious forms of cheating, like directly cheating off someone or stealing their work. But like other people said, do you consider it cheating when people get "inside info" that other people don't? In my class some people had "big brothers/sisters" (not formally assigned, just close friends they made) that gave them tests and stuff that were unavailable to others. Unsurprisingly a lot of these people did extremely well. Many of them were really smart, too, so I'm not saying that's the only reason. As time went on more and more people got access to the tests but not everyone. You may say "so what" but that does impact your residency decisions and your future. If you were someone who got "inside info" you probably say "them's the breaks" but if not I can definitely see how that's considered "cheating." Also the people who say "them's the breaks" would probably complain just as much if they were on the outside group.
Unless the administration has banned the use of these study materials or tips, then I would definitely not consider it cheating. If there's really a problem, someone should mention this to the faculty and request old exams, at the least. Our physiology department crushed this problem by posting the last 3-4 years of physiology exams right online, including the final. It was very helpful, but I know it meant extra work for all the phys faculty, because they have to write new questions every year.
 
I agree about cheating/breeching the honor code is huge. I think old exams should be made available to all or not returned to students. I understand that faculty have a hard time coming up with 50+ questions per test for 30+ year! I mean the material is the same and they DO run out of Q's (rather than accusing them of laziness).

Now, even if exams are NOT returned, you still have groups of students trying to remember old Q's and writing them down (like 30 students agreeing to memorize a question or 2 each). I learned about this from a dental student somewhere.

What I really hate is the idea of faculty throwing the whole honor code on students and saying, it is up to you to be ethical or not (like when they have you take exams home and trust you to not cheat....never had that done before but hear about it in other schools). I think most people (generally speaking) will take easier routes or get tempted to (as long as they are not breaking big laws). Some of us will be ethical, and as an earlier poster said, we will end up behind the curve. Point is, there will always be those with connections, and as much as we would love to say "this or that" will weed the out (aka MCAT, USMLE), the fact of the matter is that many people are cut more slack than others. Are you going to tell me that the son/daughter of the chief medicine/chief of ortho or dean of the medical school somewhere has an EQUAL shot of getting into med school/competitive specialty as the rest of us with little/no connections? I don't think so, but such is life.
 
As I recall, there was a prominent journalism school that had an anything goes approach on the theory that a student's ability to solve problems depends, in part, in their ability to network and find outside sources of information.

That's crap. On that basis then you could argue that people could collaborate on tests because you're demonstrating team-work and networking skills. Or you could pay your professor to do your test because you're employing real-world financial savvy to consult an expert in the field. You may say that's just being silly but it's no more silly than rewarding people for "knowing the right people." It just exposes the B.S. behind that thinking.
 
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but I know it meant extra work for all the phys faculty, because they have to write new questions every year.

I disagree that this is "extra" work -- creating exams is actually part of the job, or should be. Many schools actually require new sets of questions from its faculty each year. It's a necessity to keep the process fair.



And guys, the word is "breach" (of the honor code) not "breech". The latter connotes a baby coming out backwards. (There must be a lot of budding OBs in our midst).
 
There was an article in the NY Times a few months back about the definition of cheating. As I recall, there was a prominent journalism school that had an anything goes approach on the theory that a student's ability to solve problems depends, in part, in their ability to network and find outside sources of information. They were quite happy for a student to find an outside expert to do an assignment, or to collaborate via the net or cell because it showed good networking skills which is as valuable as knowing the information yourself. The theory goes that it is as important to measure who is "in the loop" as it is to know who knows the material. I get their point, but there are plenty of times were networking ability will be measured and rewarded. Universities should stick to measuring knowledge of content. In my view, these practices are more a measure of laziness of faculty and administrators than a measure of networking ability.

I think journalism is probably unique in that networking for information and finding sources/resources is in fact something they are trying to teach. They want you to become the next Woodward and Bernstein and that requires thinking outside the box. I don't think it holds water when you try to extrapolate to other fields.
 
The biggest problem I have with cheaters is not the fact that it is unfair to others but the fact that it shows that they are incompetent if they can't solve problems on their own.

If you cheat, it shows you basically don't know the material. But fact is when you get out in the real world, you are going to have to know how to solve the cases yourself when you are treating patients. There's not going to be someone there to cheat off of when you need to tell a patient what is wrong with them or how to treat their illness or prevent it from happening again if it is a curable disease.

This is my biggest gripe with cheatin. That and if they put the effort they put into cheating into studying, then just maybe they would get the same grade or a good grade without cheating. Its just so dumb to take the risk of your entire career.
 
How do people cheat in med school?! I mean, you're in a room with 100++ other people, and it would be so obvious if you took out your notes. What are some ways in people have cheated and professors found out about it?! Obviously cheating is wrong but I'm kind of in disbelief that it is rampant.
 
Surveys show that something like 60% (if I recall correctly) of undergrad students admit to cheating. It is hardly surprising that some med students cheat.

I agree with some of the comments above regarding administrations attitudes about cheating. They may say otherwise, but they would prefer not to have to deal with it. Thus, they will make all kinds of lofty statements about honesty but they really don't like to be faced with all the unpleasantness that arises when someone cheats.

I used to be a prof before I went to med school. For a long time, I never really paid any attention to cheating. I never cheated and I imagined that few people did. A few students complained to me about cheating so I started doing things to catch cheaters. For example, I would hand out three versions of an exam and the questions would be identical except for one numerical change. You would find quite a few people with multiple correct answers -- for the wrong version.

It is a pain in the ass when you catch someone. They bitch and moan and you have to go through all kinds of hoopla. I also wasted a lot time soul searching and second guessing. It is no fun to accuse someone of cheating. One person was an honor student and had been admitted to a top 5 law school. It is not pleasant to wreck a young person's career. You wonder, 'Did I make a mistake?'

I did have one funny case. This guy had put down three answers in a row that corresponded to the wrong version (3 in a row was my minimum criteria). The second answer was zero and the third answer was 22. My school had a group that reviewed cheating cases and they supported every case I sent except for this one. They said, "You know Mr. X, the last guy you referred. We have reservations about this one. He is clearly not the brightest bulb in the chandelier and probably isn't smart enough to make this up. " So it turns out that he claims he had written zero because he had no clue (fair enough) and 22 because it was his "lucky number". I said, "Come one, you expect me to buy that?" No! I was born at 2:22 in the morning and I always use it! I can prove it! So he brought in his birth certificate and about 4 sports jerseys all with the number 22 plus multiple team photos with his number 22. I let him off.
But, I will tell you, the admin is generally not happy to hear about cheating. They would rather make speeches.

Personally, I would rather not have grades. Learning is fun. If people need grades for motivation they really don't belong in a university.

lol, poor guy:laugh::laugh:
 
If your school grades on a curve then the honor code will be strictly enforced by all students. Mine does, and if I even suspected someone of cheating on an exam I'd report them instantly. I'm sure my classmates feel the same way.

That and a few other technical fixes (randomized questions and answers, proctored exams, etc) is all you need to be sure cheating isn't 'rampant'.
 
If your school grades on a curve then the honor code will be strictly enforced by all students.

You mean that you don't mind cheating if there's no curve? That's great rationalization going on there. I've met lots of people from college and medical school who think that way. "If I approve of the test format and think it's fair, then I will follow the rules, otherwise I am justified to do whatever I want."
 
You mean that you don't mind cheating if there's no curve? That's great rationalization going on there. I've met lots of people from college and medical school who think that way. "If I approve of the test format and think it's fair, then I will follow the rules, otherwise I am justified to do whatever I want."
I think it's pretty clear that he meant that their cheating just doesn't have a direct effect on him with no curve. He wasn't rationalizing anyone's behavior.
 
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so in the recent case at my school, the person was cleared at the end of the summer. the student insisted that he/she didn't cheat, but the school didn't believe him/her.

the person isn't in my class anymore but there seem to hard feelings and there are still a lot of crappy things being said about the student...

i don't know whether or not the person cheated but i figure he/she should be able to come back without feeling bad or worried...
 
This is about the saddest example I can think of.... At my school two or three years back, a student in the class ahead of mine was kicked out for hacking into professor's computer his second year and changing his grade...from a high pass to an honors. I mean, how ridiculously stupid can you be? As if the grades during the basic science years mattered at all! I could maybe have some sympathy if he had failed or something but high pass? Talk about flushing $70,000 down the toilet.

There was another kid when I was an undergrad who was working so hard trying to beef up his med school application with work at hospitals and extracurricular stuff that he didn't have time to show up for O-chem lab (I was the TA). He had already failed the course once for cheating so we had our eye on him, and it wasn't hard to determine that pretty much everything he turned in was completely falsified or copied from previous semester's experiments (those IR machines print dates on the scans you know). Anyway, he got failed again and referred to the honor code office. Of course all that resume-building can never make up for explaining away two consecutive F's in a required course for cheating (if he even graduated).

As for why people cheat in med school, I think all of us were (or are) extremely competetive by nature as premeds, and I personally had a hard time letting go of it. I don't know how many times the M3's and M4's told me that my basic science grades don't matter, I still couldn't imagine being happy with anything less than honors in everything (of course, all that extra studying helped a ton with step 1). It wasn't until late in my M3 year that it finally hit me that even though I was one of the top of the class in undergrad, so were all of my current med school peers; it's okay to be average among a crowd of extremely smart people!

Anyway, my two cents for why people can be so stupid to take such a big risk and cheat on something that really doesn't matter.
 
so in the recent case at my school, the person was cleared at the end of the summer. the student insisted that he/she didn't cheat, but the school didn't believe him/her.

the person isn't in my class anymore but there seem to hard feelings and there are still a lot of crappy things being said about the student...

i don't know whether or not the person cheated but i figure he/she should be able to come back without feeling bad or worried...

you never said what happened!
 
A funny story for you all. This happened in undergrad to a former classmate of mine in another class that I did not have with him. But he was taking a test, I believe Physics test, when someone was trying to cheat on him. He realized what was going on, so he started purposely circling answers from one choice above his real answer and then bubbled the right answer on the test and covered his scantron so the guy couldn't see his real answers. :laugh: :laugh:
 
so in the recent case at my school, the person was cleared at the end of the summer. the student insisted that he/she didn't cheat, but the school didn't believe him/her.

the person isn't in my class anymore but there seem to hard feelings and there are still a lot of crappy things being said about the student...

i don't know whether or not the person cheated but i figure he/she should be able to come back without feeling bad or worried...

You know, someone at our school is coming back after being accused of cheating. I can count on one hand the number of people in the entire school who thinks he/she didn't cheat (I'm not one of them). I kind of feel sorry for this person because I don't think he/she realizes just how many people are against his/her return.
 
You know, someone at our school is coming back after being accused of cheating. I can count on one hand the number of people in the entire school who thinks he/she didn't cheat (I'm not one of them). I kind of feel sorry for this person because I don't think he/she realizes just how many people are against his/her return.

Don't count on it. I bet the person does realize it. Imagine how that feels...

Have you considered the possibility that the person didn't cheat?
 
Don't count on it. I bet the person does realize it. Imagine how that feels...

Have you considered the possibility that the person didn't cheat?

Imagining how it might feel is why I have sympathy for the person. And yes, I have also considered the possibility that he or she didn't cheat. I always give others the benefit of the doubt. But sadly, in this particular case, I am sure cheating was involved.
 
As far as the gray areas go, our school has "student study material usage documents" for each of our modules that states what materials can and cant be used, so thats one way to clear it up (for instance, in this module, we can't use old tests, but we can use old lecture transcripts).
 
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