Columbia P&S vs UPenn

[undecidedddd]

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Hello SDNers,

I made a new account to help keep my identity somewhat private as I would like to get unbiased advice. I'm currently at a loss as to what school to choose at all. All I have to go on are my interview days and I don't remember the events of those days too well. I missed Columbia's Second Look because I was terribly sick and will likely miss UPenn's because of a time conflict so I'm turning to you for help.

Finances:
While finances for these two schools haven't come out yet I have heard that the financial aid offices are extremely generous. I have thankfully received a full tuition scholarship fromDukeand am hoping that I would be able to contact the financial aid office of the school I choose and try to get them to match the price. Finances are important for me but I can't see myself living in Durham for 4 years.

Columbia:

Pros:
-1.5 year preclinical completely unranked
-NYC
-Students seemed like they were having a blast going to medical school, I met nearly 50 students that day that just stopped by the admissions office throughout the day, even students that had exams! Great sign
-More well known than UPenn
Cons:
-Might be a bit more expensive? But again I'm hoping that these schools are open to matching offers/finances
-Not as "highly" ranked as UPenn

UPenn:

Pros:
-Students that I stayed with and others I met were VERY hard working. Seemed more hard working than students at Columbia
-Better match list supposedly than Columbia's
-1.5 year preclinical
-Campus is more connected allowing students cross colleges to interact and perform research together
Cons:
-Preclinical is H/P/F after first 6 months
-Not as universally known as Columbia

A little bit about me: I am 90% sure I want to be a surgeon of some sort. The other 10% is leaning towards Interventional Radiology. I'm also very certain that I want to go into a CA residency after medical school, I've had enough of the east coast.

I'm sorry to be making this thread, many of you must be tired of threads like these. None of my friends understand the decision I have to make however and I would like to hear from fellow premeds/people who have been in this situation before.

Thank You.

 

[Long Way to Go]

I can't imagine that there would be any systematic reputation benefit from going to either school. Both are incredibly well known and attract excellent students and faculty. Any perceived reputation bump for one over the other would be entirely idiosyncratic based on the Program Director's background.

The same is true for Duke.

 

[undecidedddd]

I can't imagine that there would be any systematic reputation benefit from going to either school. Both are incredibly well known and attract excellent students and faculty. Any perceived reputation bump for one over the other would be entirely idiosyncratic based on the Program Director's background.

The same is true for Duke.

So the US news ranking reports between spot 4 vs 8 really isn't that substantial?

Also I have a copy of the residency director assessment from a few years ago:

and it seems that Penn is ranked higher than Columbia. That's what's causing the conflict.

 

[undecidedddd]

Also, I probably shouldn't have included a poll in this thread haha. No one's posting any thoughts/adding to the discussion 🙁

 

[yankees26]

Penn would have a slight advantage in terms of surgical placement. I am very curious as to why you think Penn is "not universally known." Penn is a powerhouse in medicine, and any doctor in the US will have heard of it. It is the top of the top in medicine and will pretty much set you for the most successful of careers in medicine!If finances are something you are heavily weighing, you would probably be a little better at Philly over NYC. The cost of living difference between the two cities is definitely significant. To be honest, if I were you I would also not push Duke aside too quickly. Full tuition is pretty damn sweet!

 

[nemo123]

Penn would have a slight advantage in terms of surgical placement. I am very curious as to why you think Penn is "not universally known." Penn is a powerhouse in medicine, and any doctor in the US will have heard of it. It is the top of the top in medicine and will pretty much set you for the most successful of careers in medicine!If finances are something you are heavily weighing, you would probably be a little better at Philly over NYC. The cost of living difference between the two cities is definitely significant. To be honest, if I were you I would also not push Duke aside too quickly. Full tuition is pretty damn sweet!

Is this necessarily true though? P&S has a such strong history of its med students entering surgical fields that the running joke is that Columbia's name should be "Columbia University College of Surgeons and Surgeons."

Anyways, OP, even if you weren't able to make the second looks at each school, you could still try to set up an individual visit with each admissions office.

 

[yankees26]

Is this necessarily true though? P&S has a such strong history of its med students entering surgical fields that the running joke is that Columbia's name should be "Columbia University College of Surgeons and Surgeons."

Anyways, OP, even if you weren't able to make the second looks at each school, you could still try to set up an individual visit with each admissions office.

They are both strong in surgery. No question. I think Penn as a whole has a tendency for its students to be placed at top notch surgical residencies. Check out their match list- its absolutely insane! Thus, I think the OP should make his/her decision on other factors such as finances and cost of living since the OP mentioned that was important.

 

[undecidedddd]

Is this necessarily true though? P&S has a such strong history of its med students entering surgical fields that the running joke is that Columbia's name should be "Columbia University College of Surgeons and Surgeons."

Anyways, OP, even if you weren't able to make the second looks at each school, you could still try to set up an individual visit with each admissions office.

That's what I heard about Columbia as well ha, I assumed it was the place to go for aspiring surgeons. Urology is a field I am interested in and so is orthopedics, but I didn't look at the match lists extremely closely so there might very well be little difference between Upenn and Columbia in that regard. My main factors in choosing a school is which will set me up in the best position when applying for residency. I'm also looking for a stress free environment which seems better at Columbia than at Penn due to the H/P/F during preclinical a but then again since there is AOA at Columbia and Penn it might be compensated at Columbia by everyone bringing out their guns 3rd year to get those Honors marks and make the AOA cutoff. Who knows...

I'm also not completely striking Duke out. If it comes down to purely finances I'll definitely end up matriculating there but as it stands I hope that I will be able to talk with other medical schools and let them know the offers I have and that finances are portent to me. Hopefully that will help in some regard. I'd also have to purchase a car at Duke and I don't really want to own a car for the next 4 years.

I'm also worried that an informal visit won't give me a chance to perceive how the school really is, unlike 2nd Look. I don't even know what would happen on an informal personal visit. Would I just shadow a student from class to class?

 

[trino]

I don't know if you read the penn fb page, but here's an excerpt about the H/P/F

"We get this question all the time. I could talk til I was blue in the face. If you are trying to find pros and cons of Perelman vs. other schools, grades don't even belong on the list. Our test avgs. During mod 1 were around 90%. During mod2 so far, it's the same deal. The only people you'll hear worried about Penn's grade system are NOT Penn students. It's almost funny because the people who are being graded realize how little of a deal it is, but that is difficult to convey to other people."

Doesn't seem like H/P/F is a big deal. I agree that Penn students seem hardworking but I don't think this equates to stress (more their step 1 scores which are a must for surgery). I can't speak for the stress level vs Columbia though as I didn't interview there.

 

[yankees26]

I don't know if you read the penn fb page, but here's an excerpt about the H/P/F

"We get this question all the time. I could talk til I was blue in the face. If you are trying to find pros and cons of Perelman vs. other schools, grades don't even belong on the list. Our test avgs. During mod 1 were around 90%. During mod2 so far, it's the same deal. The only people you'll hear worried about Penn's grade system are NOT Penn students. It's almost funny because the people who are being graded realize how little of a deal it is, but that is difficult to convey to other people."

Doesn't seem like H/P/F is a big deal. I agree that Penn students seem hardworking but I don't think this equates to stress (more their step 1 scores which are a must for surgery). I can't speak for the stress level vs Columbia though as I didn't interview there.

Yea Ive heard the same thing about Penn's grading to be really lax. Penn seemed to be a pretty chill environment. They dress up for anatomy and it was hilarious!

 

[Sophocles]

Is this necessarily true though? P&S has a such strong history of its med students entering surgical fields that the running joke is that Columbia's name should be "Columbia University College of Surgeons and Surgeons."

Anyways, OP, even if you weren't able to make the second looks at each school, you could still try to set up an individual visit with each admissions office.

Hello SDNers,

I made a new account to help keep my identity somewhat private as I would like to get unbiased advice. I'm currently at a loss as to what school to choose at all. All I have to go on are my interview days and I don't remember the events of those days too well. I missed Columbia's Second Look because I was terribly sick and will likely miss UPenn's because of a time conflict so I'm turning to you for help.

Finances:
While finances for these two schools haven't come out yet I have heard that the financial aid offices are extremely generous. I have thankfully received a full tuition scholarship fromDukeand am hoping that I would be able to contact the financial aid office of the school I choose and try to get them to match the price. Finances are important for me but I can't see myself living in Durham for 4 years.

Columbia:

Pros:
-1.5 year preclinical completely unranked
-NYC
-Students seemed like they were having a blast going to medical school, I met nearly 50 students that day that just stopped by the admissions office throughout the day, even students that had exams! Great sign
-More well known than UPenn
Cons:
-Might be a bit more expensive? But again I'm hoping that these schools are open to matching offers/finances
-Not as "highly" ranked as UPenn

UPenn:

Pros:
-Students that I stayed with and others I met were VERY hard working. Seemed more hard working than students at Columbia
-Better match list supposedly than Columbia's
-1.5 year preclinical
-Campus is more connected allowing students cross colleges to interact and perform research together
Cons:
-Preclinical is H/P/F after first 6 months
-Not as universally known as Columbia

A little bit about me: I am 90% sure I want to be a surgeon of some sort. The other 10% is leaning towards Interventional Radiology. I'm also very certain that I want to go into a CA residency after medical school, I've had enough of the east coast.

I'm sorry to be making this thread, many of you must be tired of threads like these. None of my friends understand the decision I have to make however and I would like to hear from fellow premeds/people who have been in this situation before.

Thank You.

I don't know where you got some of this information but this is not correct. Penn has a better match list? When you're comparing such schools it doesn't make sense to try to analyze them. I can say with certainty that a lot of these graduates have personal reasons for choosing a residency, rather than simply going for some "prestigious" placement; there is also a difference between perceived and actual prestige. There are definitely power houses in specialties that people don't really know about (e.g. Barrow for neurosurgery), and it's hard for someone that isn't actively involved to be able to interpret match lists. Rankings are dynamic and subjective and there really is no practical difference between the two.

Penn's student's seemed to be more hard working than Columbia's? Although you do acknowledge your extremely limited experience and subjectivity of it, it is still a ridiculous statement to make. What people consider working hard is completely subjective and I highly doubt that you would be able to judge how hard they are working; even then, for you to make such a blanket statement about two medical schools which you have never attended, is quite presumptuous. Wait till you get to medical school, you're going to look back at that statement and realize how naive it is to think that. If you think that H/P/F is the same as P/F unranked, than you're wrong. There is a difference regardless of what they put on their FB page. Even at an unranked P/F there can be some gunnin going on, I can only imagine if our grades actually mattered. You're going to want to go to the school where you feel the most comfortable at. Neither school will limit you in any way and I'm sure that there are some actual pro's/con's for these two schools but this would probably more orientated towards personal reasons (Do you like NYC? Do you have family in Philly? Did you prefer one of the housing options over the other? Are they particularly strong in a specialty? If you wanted to go into neurosurgery, I'd go with Columbia without a doubt) rather than the ones listed.

Oh, I highly doubt there will be a difference in financial aid. If you got into both of them, I'm sure you can always go for merit scholarships or if you come from a low-income background, all the Ivy's are extremely helpful.

Trust me when I tell you that you are concentrating on the wrong issues and you are completely wrong about your assumptions.

Excuse any grammatical errors, it's late.

 

[Sophocles]

That's what I heard about Columbia as well ha, I assumed it was the place to go for aspiring surgeons. Urology is a field I am interested in and so is orthopedics, but I didn't look at the match lists extremely closely so there might very well be little difference between Upenn and Columbia in that regard. My main factors in choosing a school is which will set me up in the best position when applying for residency. I'm also looking for a stress free environment which seems better at Columbia than at Penn due to the H/P/F during preclinical a but then again since there is AOA at Columbia and Penn it might be compensated at Columbia by everyone bringing out their guns 3rd year to get those Honors marks and make the AOA cutoff. Who knows...

I'm also not completely striking Duke out. If it comes down to purely finances I'll definitely end up matriculating there but as it stands I hope that I will be able to talk with other medical schools and let them know the offers I have and that finances are portent to me. Hopefully that will help in some regard. I'd also have to purchase a car at Duke and I don't really want to own a car for the next 4 years.

I'm also worried that an informal visit won't give me a chance to perceive how the school really is, unlike 2nd Look. I don't even know what would happen on an informal personal visit. Would I just shadow a student from class to class?

Yeah, look at how many people we usually place into ortho. I don't know what Penn has done but we are extremely strong in this department. We usually place ~14-15; Columbia placed two in HSS this year!

Side note: no such thing as a stress free environment in medical school, but there are places that will help you deal with the stress better. Find that place and stay there. You don't want to add more stress than needed.

Lastly, a 2nd look will absolutely not give you a chance to perceive how the school really is and contrary to your statement, an informal visit would accomplish just that.

 

[RiceKrispyTreats]

You seem to be getting some criticism, so I thought I'd jump in a bit. I have numerous close friends (and a SO) at Columbia/Penn, and my gut instinct is that Columbia students seem a bit more chill than at Penn on average. It's probably due to H/P/F, which sets the tone. I've hung out with people at Penn before exams, and while they don't seem like they're killing themselves for Honors, it is definitely very much on the back of their mind and something a lot of people seem to want, and thus will study harder on average than at true P/F places.

That being said, go with your gut (really helpful advice, I know.)

 

[ranson]

Both are great schools with similar reputations. Don't let those residency directory rankings influence your decisions because both schools are of the same caliber. If two applicants, one from Penn and the other from Columbia, with the same step 1 score and same number of honors in 3rd year, are competing for the same residency program, the one that is going to get into it is the one who interviews better or with better LORs. It isn't going to come down to which school they are from. Choose the place where you will be happy and take into consideration the financials.

 

[nemo123]

That's what I heard about Columbia as well ha, I assumed it was the place to go for aspiring surgeons. Urology is a field I am interested in and so is orthopedics, but I didn't look at the match lists extremely closely so there might very well be little difference between Upenn and Columbia in that regard. My main factors in choosing a school is which will set me up in the best position when applying for residency. I'm also looking for a stress free environment which seems better at Columbia than at Penn due to the H/P/F during preclinical a but then again since there is AOA at Columbia and Penn it might be compensated at Columbia by everyone bringing out their guns 3rd year to get those Honors marks and make the AOA cutoff. Who knows...

I'm also not completely striking Duke out. If it comes down to purely finances I'll definitely end up matriculating there but as it stands I hope that I will be able to talk with other medical schools and let them know the offers I have and that finances are portent to me. Hopefully that will help in some regard. I'd also have to purchase a car at Duke and I don't really want to own a car for the next 4 years.

I'm also worried that an informal visit won't give me a chance to perceive how the school really is, unlike 2nd Look. I don't even know what would happen on an informal personal visit. Would I just shadow a student from class to class?

I would think that an informal visit would probably give you a better idea of the school because you'd get an idea of what a day-to-day life as a student there would be. Second looks are made to sell the school to you (and you tend to spend most of your time with the other acceptees), so I'm not necessarily sure they would give you a perfectly accurate view of what the school is like. I would think if you did an informal visit, the admissions office would probably arrange for you to be with a host and talk with some deans and administrators also.

 

[Narmerguy]

I don't know if you read the penn fb page, but here's an excerpt about the H/P/F

"We get this question all the time. I could talk til I was blue in the face. If you are trying to find pros and cons of Perelman vs. other schools, grades don't even belong on the list. Our test avgs. During mod 1 were around 90%. During mod2 so far, it's the same deal. The only people you'll hear worried about Penn's grade system are NOT Penn students. It's almost funny because the people who are being graded realize how little of a deal it is, but that is difficult to convey to other people."

Doesn't seem like H/P/F is a big deal. I agree that Penn students seem hardworking but I don't think this equates to stress (more their step 1 scores which are a must for surgery). I can't speak for the stress level vs Columbia though as I didn't interview there.

I often read some version of this. If this is really true, then why not just get rid of the graded system? It's easy to remove and there's nor reason to believe Penn students can't be self motivated. I've heard from other students at Penn who complained that the vibe changed once they switched to H/P/F and that people because more intense. All hearsay, but it just strikes me as something that's pretty easy to just replace.

 

[yankees26]

Ive heard from students at Penn who say that competition is nonexistent. You are not competing against peers!

 

[Meredith92]

Ive heard from students at Penn who say that competition is nonexistent. You are not competing against peers!

I have heard this too. I am making a similar decision, and although the grades may not lead to competition, I personally believe I would feel more stressed trying to reach for the best grade. Its definitely a personal decision, but I dont think you should just ignore the fact that the grading systems are very different.

 

[trino]

I often read some version of this. If this is really true, then why not just get rid of the graded system? It's easy to remove and there's nor reason to believe Penn students can't be self motivated. I've heard from other students at Penn who complained that the vibe changed once they switched to H/P/F and that people because more intense. All hearsay, but it just strikes me as something that's pretty easy to just replace.

As someone who will most likely matriculate to Penn, I'll take a shot at this, but I really hope someone like @darkjedi will chime in. I agree with you, and I would like Penn all that much more if they did away with the grading system. I think its just a matter of "if its not broken, don't fix it." Same goes with WashU's H/HP/P/F system (or whatever it is). I think, in the administrations eyes and from most of what I've seen with the students, it actually doesn't matter. If Penn students were complaining about it, then wouldn't the administration be open to change it? From my experience, school's of Penn's caliber usually have a med student curriculum board or at least get feedback on their courses. This leads me to believe that any negative experiences come from very few unsatisfied students. As applicants, the only thing we have to go off is our interactions with the student body. I'm not saying its right, but I would rather believe the overwhelming dismissal of the H/P/F grading system that I have heard rather than a couple negative opinions of it (which I haven't heard, but maybe others had). Also keep in mind that people tend to talk about things they don't like. This is just my opinion that I'm trying to share. You're free to yours and it might be more qualified than mine.

I believe that pre-clinical grades are what you make of them. As any med student will tell you, they don't matter that much in the long run. At Penn, Honors is set at a number cutoff. If the whole class makes above the cutoff, the class gets honors (and given the FB post it seems that many people do). Therefore, you are not competing against your fellow students, but actually against the students in years before you that set the numerical cutoff. Nothing you can do about it there. Its not like undergrad where the best and the brightest students compete against each other to see who can come out on top of the curve.

Anyway, like others have said, there are much more important factors to take into account.

 

[yankees26]

trino hit the nail on the hammer. well said

I don't know if you read the penn fb page, but here's an excerpt about the H/P/F

"We get this question all the time. I could talk til I was blue in the face. If you are trying to find pros and cons of Perelman vs. other schools, grades don't even belong on the list. Our test avgs. During mod 1 were around 90%. During mod2 so far, it's the same deal. The only people you'll hear worried about Penn's grade system are NOT Penn students. It's almost funny because the people who are being graded realize how little of a deal it is, but that is difficult to convey to other people."

Doesn't seem like H/P/F is a big deal. I agree that Penn students seem hardworking but I don't think this equates to stress (more their step 1 scores which are a must for surgery). I can't speak for the stress level vs Columbia though as I didn't interview there.

 

[trino]

I have heard this too. I am making a similar decision, and although the grades may not lead to competition, I personally believe I would feel more stressed trying to reach for the best grade. Its definitely a personal decision, but I dont think you should just ignore the fact that the grading systems are very different.

+1, I think its a matter of preference. But...if you're the person that makes it matter, you're likely a person shooting for AOA and would want honors anyway (on top of other things)

 

[yesbutno]

In regards to your financial situation, you should reach out to the Penn financial aid office. They are well-known for taking a personal approach to financial aid and will be interested in hearing about your other options.

 

[undecidedddd]

Thank you for all the replies everyone. It's helping me discussing this with people for a change rather than just juggling the ideas in my head. I hope that this thread will help others as well and even the future generations of applicants that will be bound with the same decisions.

I don't know where you got some of this information but this is not correct. Penn has a better match list? When you're comparing such schools it doesn't make sense to try to analyze them. I can say with certainty that a lot of these graduates have personal reasons for choosing a residency, rather than simply going for some "prestigious" placement; there is also a difference between perceived and actual prestige. There are definitely power houses in specialties that people don't really know about (e.g. Barrow for neurosurgery), and it's hard for someone that isn't actively involved to be able to interpret match lists. Rankings are dynamic and subjective and there really is no practical difference between the two.

Penn's student's seemed to be more hard working than Columbia's? Although you do acknowledge your extremely limited experience and subjectivity of it, it is still a ridiculous statement to make. What people consider working hard is completely subjective and I highly doubt that you would be able to judge how hard they are working; even then, for you to make such a blanket statement about two medical schools which you have never attended, is quite presumptuous. Wait till you get to medical school, you're going to look back at that statement and realize how naive it is to think that. If you think that H/P/F is the same as P/F unranked, than you're wrong. There is a difference regardless of what they put on their FB page. Even at an unranked P/F there can be some gunnin going on, I can only imagine if our grades actually mattered. You're going to want to go to the school where you feel the most comfortable at. Neither school will limit you in any way and I'm sure that there are some actual pro's/con's for these two schools but this would probably more orientated towards personal reasons (Do you like NYC? Do you have family in Philly? Did you prefer one of the housing options over the other? Are they particularly strong in a specialty? If you wanted to go into neurosurgery, I'd go with Columbia without a doubt) rather than the ones listed.

Oh, I highly doubt there will be a difference in financial aid. If you got into both of them, I'm sure you can always go for merit scholarships or if you come from a low-income background, all the Ivy's are extremely helpful.

Trust me when I tell you that you are concentrating on the wrong issues and you are completely wrong about your assumptions.

As I understand from your post you are a student at Columbia yourself. Could you please help shed some more light on these issues then so that I could be more self aware and be better equipped to make my decision. I understand where you're coming from in regards to the match list. I am looking for the school that will help shape me into the most competitive applicant for surgery specialties but it seems that both schools have strong match lists as you have mentioned and I should have no trouble matching into California residencies coming from either school.

The reason I said that Penn students seemed more hard working was that the hosts that I stayed with (small sample size, I know) studied throughout the night that I was there and when I was leaving on Friday evening they even planned to study for a couple of hours more before going out to relax. When we walked into the library on the tour there were multiple students even sleeping on the couches! Ha, it was ridiculous. I have read on this forum before that Columbia has this idea attached to it that students are extremely chill and it's all one big social club, largely in part due to the heavy emphasis placed on the P&S Club. I did not stay with a host at Columbia and thus likely have a different view of the students and was wondering if you could kindly correct me as to how hard working/driven the student body is.

Also, I have no idea which school is strong in which particular specialty so would you mind breaking it down between the two schools. I have heard that Columbia is strong in neurosurgery before but that is the extent of my knowledge.

And personal issues for me seem minuscule to me compared to other reasons such as academic as I feel that I can adjust to anywhere that I am located. But my family is located in N, so across the river from NYC. I LOVED the housing options at Columbia 2nd year and above and Columbia has been a long time dream of mine, living in NYC has always been something I've wanted to do. But from what I remember at my interview day I felt a little bit more comfortable at UPenn but I will be back at Columbia for an informal visit to see.

You seem to be getting some criticism, so I thought I'd jump in a bit. I have numerous close friends (and a SO) at Columbia/Penn, and my gut instinct is that Columbia students seem a bit more chill than at Penn on average. It's probably due to H/P/F, which sets the tone. I've hung out with people at Penn before exams, and while they don't seem like they're killing themselves for Honors, it is definitely very much on the back of their mind and something a lot of people seem to want, and thus will study harder on average than at true P/F places.

That being said, go with your gut (really helpful advice, I know.)

That is exactly what I'm worried about. Don't even know if I should be worried because as someone before has told me "if you're good enough to get in, you're good enough to stay in." And I wish it was as easy as that haha! I love the advice, it's just that I wish I knew what my gut was saying! I might not know myself well enough.

In regards to your financial situation, you should reach out to the Penn financial aid office. They are well-known for taking a personal approach to financial aid and will be interested in hearing about your other options.

I have been thinking of doing that but I feel that it is best to wait until Penn and Columbia issue their financial aid packages at the end of April before contacting them, no? I only hope it will not be too late by that point. I also know that Penn has released all of their full tuition merit scholarships to applicants already so I don't even know if they have any left to give or what their reaction would be if I tell them that I received a full tuition scholarship elsewhere.

 

[nemo123]

I remember @darkjedi said that honors at Penn isn't based on a curve, but rather is based on your exam score. He said that anyone who gets a 90 or higher in a class will get honors. So if everyone gets a 90 or higher, then everyone gets honors for that class during the pre-clinical years, so it still minimizes gunnerism. On top of that, supposedly, the administration was contemplating moving to a true P/F system, but the student body was against it.

 

[yankees26]

It also depends on when you visit too. When I went to P&S, my student host and his friends were pretty damn stressed about the upcoming test, I think it was genetics. He said he had been waking up at 6AM for the past week just to find time to study with all his commitments. On the otherhand, I have found from several friends at Perelman that they are pretty stressfree for the majority of the time. I have asked them and they actually like the H/P/F. It shows from their incredibly high Step 1 Score. From what he said, they are either 1st or 2nd in the nation for average step 1 score. So, whatever they are doing must be working!

Thank you for all the replies everyone. It's helping me discussing this with people for a change rather than just juggling the ideas in my head. I hope that this thread will help others as well and even the future generations of applicants that will be bound with the same decisions.



As I understand from your post you are a student at Columbia yourself. Could you please help shed some more light on these issues then so that I could be more self aware and be better equipped to make my decision. I understand where you're coming from in regards to the match list. I am looking for the school that will help shape me into the most competitive applicant for surgery specialties but it seems that both schools have strong match lists as you have mentioned and I should have no trouble matching into California residencies coming from either school.

The reason I said that Penn students seemed more hard working was that the hosts that I stayed with (small sample size, I know) studied throughout the night that I was there and when I was leaving on Friday evening they even planned to study for a couple of hours more before going out to relax. When we walked into the library on the tour there were multiple students even sleeping on the couches! Ha, it was ridiculous. I have read on this forum before that Columbia has this idea attached to it that students are extremely chill and it's all one big social club, largely in part due to the heavy emphasis placed on the P&S Club. I did not stay with a host at Columbia and thus likely have a different view of the students and was wondering if you could kindly correct me as to how hard working/driven the student body is.

Also, I have no idea which school is strong in which particular specialty so would you mind breaking it down between the two schools. I have heard that Columbia is strong in neurosurgery before but that is the extent of my knowledge.

And personal issues for me seem minuscule to me compared to other reasons such as academic as I feel that I can adjust to anywhere that I am located. But my family is located in N, so across the river from NYC. I LOVED the housing options at Columbia 2nd year and above and Columbia has been a long time dream of mine, living in NYC has always been something I've wanted to do. But from what I remember at my interview day I felt a little bit more comfortable at UPenn but I will be back at Columbia for an informal visit to see.



That is exactly what I'm worried about. Don't even know if I should be worried because as someone before has told me "if you're good enough to get in, you're good enough to stay in." And I wish it was as easy as that haha! I love the advice, it's just that I wish I knew what my gut was saying! I might not know myself well enough.



I have been thinking of doing that but I feel that it is best to wait until Penn and Columbia issue their financial aid packages at the end of April before contacting them, no? I only hope it will not be too late by that point. I also know that Penn has released all of their full tuition merit scholarships to applicants already so I don't even know if they have any left to give or what their reaction would be if I tell them that I received a full tuition scholarship elsewhere.

 

[Meredith92]

It also depends on when you visit too. When I went to P&S, my student host and his friends were pretty damn stressed about the upcoming test, I think it was genetics. He said he had been waking up at 6AM for the past week just to find time to study with all his commitments. On the otherhand, I have found from several friends at Perelman that they are pretty stressfree for the majority of the time. I have asked them and they actually like the H/P/F. It shows from their incredibly high Step 1 Score. From what he said, they are either 1st or 2nd in the nation for average step 1 score. So, whatever they are doing must be working!

I believe Columbia also has one of the top step 1 scores as well? haha i feel like I heard this at a lot of my interviews though...

Again, just keep bringing it back to how YOU would feel in each environment. You may be someone who will push themselves hard and be stressed either way (for ex. waking up at 6 am to study). OR you may be someone who would feel more pressure and stress from the idea of grades... or someone who will be more motivated and excited by getting a high grade. No one can tell you what will or will not lead to stress. From my experience, there are wonderful people at either school and I doubt that there are significantly more "gunners"at penn.

 

[undecidedddd]

I would also like to get the opinion of @mmmcdowe with regards to how "well looked after" Columbia students are. I understand he is a very vocal student about Columbia and well reasoned. I have read previous forum posts that state that Penn students are extremely well looked after and are nurtured well. It is supposedly not that difficult to find a mentor at Penn and complete research projects with faculty as a junior med student/first year and I was wondering how that applies to Columbia. Is it similar?

 

[yesbutno]

I have been thinking of doing that but I feel that it is best to wait until Penn and Columbia issue their financial aid packages at the end of April before contacting them, no? I only hope it will not be too late by that point. I also know that Penn has released all of their full tuition merit scholarships to applicants already so I don't even know if they have any left to give or what their reaction would be if I tell them that I received a full tuition scholarship elsewhere.

I had the same question regarding the best time to talk to the Penn financial aid office. I asked a current Penn student, and he advised me to contact them right away. Penn will be offering more merit scholarships. You should have received the e-mail they sent yesterday, but here's a quote for reference:

"Merit awards have been released. Additional merit awards will be available after Penn Preview. Need based awards will be released beginning April 21."

Just send them an e-mail now. It certainly won't hurt, and it could help. Be humble and tell them that you're having a tough time deciding between Penn and a full scholarship at Duke.

 

[undecidedddd]

I had the same question regarding the best time to talk to the Penn financial aid office. I asked a current Penn student, and he advised me to contact them right away. Penn will be offering more merit scholarships. You should have received the e-mail they sent yesterday, but here's a quote for reference:

"Merit awards have been released. Additional merit awards will be available after Penn Preview. Need based awards will be released beginning April 21."

Just send them an e-mail now. It certainly won't hurt, and it could help. Be humble and tell them that you're having a tough time deciding between Penn and a full scholarship at Duke.

Now you're making me feel like I should've sent them this information before these full tuition scholarships were sent out hehe. I didn't know the appropriate time either but thank you for the advice. I feel at this point I should choose a school that I'm dead-set on before talking about financials because if I ask and a school is understanding enough to provide me with the resources to attend their school I feel like I'd be locked into that choice. Would hate to ask for money and then change my mind.

 

[Sophocles]

Now you're making me feel like I should've sent them this information before these full tuition scholarships were sent out hehe. I didn't know the appropriate time either but thank you for the advice. I feel at this point I should choose a school that I'm dead-set on before talking about financials because if I ask and a school is understanding enough to provide me with the resources to attend their school I feel like I'd be locked into that choice. Would hate to ask for money and then change my mind.

Absolutely not. Seeing how close these schools are on your list, I would say that you couldn't make a logical decision until you get our financial aid packages. And, I would also encourage contacting each school and telling them about your offers. I was listening to one of our adcoms at our annual multicultural affair conference last weekend and she stated that this is a MUST!

 

[ChEMD]

Now you're making me feel like I should've sent them this information before these full tuition scholarships were sent out hehe. I didn't know the appropriate time either but thank you for the advice. I feel at this point I should choose a school that I'm dead-set on before talking about financials because if I ask and a school is understanding enough to provide me with the resources to attend their school I feel like I'd be locked into that choice. Would hate to ask for money and then change my mind.

That's a very nice sentiment, but these schools really do understand that you're trying to make a very tough decision and they won't hold a grudge if you decide not to go there. Not to say that each individual applicant isn't special, but they have a ton of other well qualified applicants to offer spots/scholarships to. I really think you should contact both Columbia and Penn about your scholarship at Duke and see what they're willing to offer you. I know you don't want to sound greedy or selfish, but this is one time where you get to be because this decision will affect at least the next 4 years of your life.

 

[snowflakes]

Now you're making me feel like I should've sent them this information before these full tuition scholarships were sent out hehe. I didn't know the appropriate time either but thank you for the advice. I feel at this point I should choose a school that I'm dead-set on before talking about financials because if I ask and a school is understanding enough to provide me with the resources to attend their school I feel like I'd be locked into that choice. Would hate to ask for money and then change my mind.

Well then just be honest. Don't say the money would make you 100% sure to come to X school. Just say that you are strongly interested in the program, but finances are also a big concern for you, and then mention your Duke scholarship.

 

[undecidedddd]

Absolutely not. Seeing how close these schools are on your list, I would say that you couldn't make a logical decision until you get our financial aid packages. And, I would also encourage contacting each school and telling them about your offers. I was listening to one of our adcoms at our annual multicultural affair conference last weekend and she stated that this is a MUST!

That's a very nice sentiment, but these schools really do understand that you're trying to make a very tough decision and they won't hold a grudge if you decide not to go there. Not to say that each individual applicant isn't special, but they have a ton of other well qualified applicants to offer spots/scholarships to. I really think you should contact both Columbia and Penn about your scholarship at Duke and see what they're willing to offer you. I know you don't want to sound greedy or selfish, but this is one time where you get to be because this decision will affect at least the next 4 years of your life.

So you guys both also feel that the sooner I get the financial information the better. I know they won't have prepared packages until the end of the month but maybe they would be able to give me an estimator something. Would I address this letter/email to a Dean perhaps, the Admissions Office, or the Financial Aid office? I will try writing a short paragraph explaining my situation thanks.

 

[Sophocles]

So you guys both also feel that the sooner I get the financial information the better. I know they won't have prepared packages until the end of the month but maybe they would be able to give me an estimator something. Would I address this letter/email to a Dean perhaps, the Admissions Office, or the Financial Aid office? I will try writing a short paragraph explaining my situation thanks.

Definitely the sooner the better. Everything else, I can only speculate!!

I wouldn't contact the dean and what I've heard others do, I never did this because I knew I was coming here, was to contact the Office of Diversity but this was because they were a minority. A couple of days after they received an offer by the financial aid office. Hopefully, someone can comment about who to contact if you're not a minority.

From my understanding packages are the complete shabang. Meaning they will have your loans, scholarships, grants, etc.; therefore, you don't necessarily need to have your package in order to get a scholarship offer. Last year Columbia had most of the packages ready by revisit because they know that people will be using this as a deciding factor. I think you owe it to yourself to get the financial information before you decide and I would state it like snowflakes did. Don't sound too cocky but at the same time be confident and know your worth. Explain to them your dilemma and I'm sure both schools will work out for you.


You know what's the best part of your circumstance? Regardless of where you go, you will be an all-star. The questions that remains are which one will you be happier at throughout your four years and which one will leave you with the least amount of debt? Honestly everything else is insignificant, IMO.

 

[ChEMD]

So you guys both also feel that the sooner I get the financial information the better. I know they won't have prepared packages until the end of the month but maybe they would be able to give me an estimator something. Would I address this letter/email to a Dean perhaps, the Admissions Office, or the Financial Aid office? I will try writing a short paragraph explaining my situation thanks.

Definitely sooner rather than later! I'm not sure who I'd address it to, maybe the financial aid office. If not them, they'll at least be able to pass it on to whoever has power over that type of thing.

 

[darkjedi]

Let me just start off by saying that you really can't go wrong with either school. Columbia is an incredibly school, and in many ways very similar to Penn, which makes the decision a bit difficult I'm sure.

As for Penn, what @nemo123 said is true. We really are never competing against each other in our classes. My class is incredibly supportive of each other and there really is no 'gunnerism' in the preclinical years. My classmates always shared notes, flashcards, study materials with each other on our class google drive. People will always be competitive, but most of that competition is directed towards themselves, which is understandable for people who are now in med school, and what I would expect from most students at this level. I believe it is the same case for 'stress' in that I think depending on your personality, you will be stressed or not stressed, no matter the difference between H/P/F or P/F. In that manner, I think admissions did a stellar job for our class in selecting for people who tend to have great work/life balances. Our average step score is also something the administration is pretty proud of, and I do think a big part of that is how our curriculum is structured.

As for financial aid, I believe Penn is already in the process of sending out it's financial aid letters, so keep an eye out for that. I mean you don't have to make a decision until May 15th, by which time financial aid offers should all be out. If financial aid is still an issue, you can also open up a discussion with the financial aid office.

I highly recommend that you go to the second look weekend because it is a good chance to learn even more about the school and the cities, as well as meeting your potential future classmates.

 

[mmmcdowe]

I have been summoned but as i am at a yankees game i cant really read the whole thread.

First, penn and columbia both have exceptional lists, i challenge anyone to prove that one is better than the other. Both match top programs and, more importantly, most people get there top 2 or 3. I personally would pick based on fit. We have a friendly rivalry, but have very similar programs and cultures. It is absolutely easy to get mentors and columbia, student, resident, and attending. All of our attendings volunteer to teach, and many are alumni. This breeds a caring culture. If you want research, no prob. There are lists for both summer and scholarly project mentors willing to pick you up.

 

[yankees26]

here is a really informative post about Penn's curriculum:

Hi all, another Penn Med MS1 here (as evidenced by my insanely creative username) to answer any questions you might have.

@@CrunchyTeddy, I'm not too familiar with the terminology, but I'd be happy to give a go at explaining the small groups better. In all honesty, they vary greatly from class to class, designed at the whim of each individual course director. Usually this means that they are well specialized to each subject, and they often fall into two broad categories: problem sets or labs. The types of problem sets, again, vary with the course--in Biochemistry during Module 1 (where we cover most of the fundamental basic science) the small groups are set up as individual cases. We are given a patient with some description of what brings them in (hint: usually a metabolic disorder of some type) and answer questions as more and more information is gradually revealed. This information can take the form of additional history, genetic testing, metabolic studies, etc. to help guide us through the diagnosis and treatment plan. On the other hand, in our neuroscience block, we spend several sessions going over much shorter cases where we link signs and symptoms of patients to the likely locations of CNS lesions (if one part of the brainstem is taken out, you'd expect different symptoms based on where cranial nerves 3-11 exit and what they do--if you hit cranial nerve III, for example, you might have trouble moving your eyes in certain ways because that nerve controls many of the muscles surrounding the eye). These smaller cases can also be accompanied with diagnostic imaging on one of the huge screens at the tables where we work.

Labs on the other hand usually stress more hands on and visual learning. Like any other medical school, we have anatomy dissections (4/cadaver) during our first semester. The only difference here is the course is literally taught by the guy who wrote the USMLE review book on anatomy (one of our best lecturers). Other labs focus more on images. For example, in neuroscience, we had a few labs where we looked at various cross sections of the brain, brainstem, and spinal cord and learned to identify anatomical features in MRIs, CT scans, etc. These labs were accompanied with others where we dissected the brain first hand.

Small groups are facilitated by a few faculty members per room. These professors are often some of the best in their field and offer some really interesting insight into how what we're learning translates into real clinical care and innovative research going on at Penn. The facilitators wander from learning team to learning team (usually three to four per room) to answer any questions or to point out intriguing details about the case that we might have missed.

Do I find small group to be efficient? Sometimes. You definitely need to be prepared in order to get a lot out of it. In that sense, it helps keep procrastinators like me in line and caught up with the material as I'd rather not waste my time later in the day or let my learning team down by posing as a useless vegetable for the entirety of the session. What the small groups are really good for is consolidating information. Just memorizing a list of facts (woefully what medical education often feels like) can only go so far if you aren't asked to think critically about them. Re-contextualizing what we've learned in lecture through cases, 3-D physical structures (in addition to dissections, most small groups sessions will also have the "pathology cart" come by with examples of cirrhotic livers or cancerous lungs), and problem solving often takes you that final step in internalizing what you need to know and practicing the critical thinking skills you will need to have before entering the clinic.

Dynamics of learning teams differ from team to team. Some learning teams (6-7 people) become close friends and throw potlucks and happy hours every week or study together nonstop. Others can be more goal-oriented where the members try to efficiently learn the material and then leave early. Totally depends on you and the people in your team. My learning team falls somewhere in between those two types; we work well together during small groups and are friends outside of school but only meet up every now and then.

Grading in module 2 is not based on participation. Here's an example of grading for our neuroscience course from the syllabus:

1) BB Part 1 – before Spring break:

a) Solo Neuroanatomy exam – 10% of final grade. Multiple choice questions based on
Neuroanatomy images projected on the big screen in Dunlop Auditorium, on March 7,
2014. You’re on your own for this exam.

b) Learning Team Neuroanatomy exam – 10% of final grade. Short answer, longer
answer or matching questions, taken with your team, on March 7, 2014. The team
submits one answer sheet, which counts for all team members.

c) Solo written exam #1 – 30% of final grade. Multiple choice exam on March 7,
2014.
2) BB Part 2 – after Spring Break:

a) Solo written exam #2 – 40% of final grade. Multiple choice exam on April 18,
2014.

b) Learning Team BB part 2 exam – 10% of final grade. Short answer, longer
answer or matching questions, taken with your team, on April 17, 2014. The team
submits one answer sheet, which counts for all team members.

c) Substance Abuse reflection essay – 1 point extra credit. If an essay meeting page
limits and other requirements about your visit to a 12-step program is submitted by
Friday, April 11, 2014 at 5 pm, 1 point will be added to the final course grade.
To answer @@trino, all individual tests are multiple choice to simulate the USMLE (and we have been assured by course directors that the questions are meant to mimic the questions and content we will be asked on the Step 1). Team exams are often more fill in the blank/short response, or we might work through a case together. Anatomy/pathology image questions are also multiple choice but have an identification component as well (they show images on the projector at the front of the auditorium). Sometimes other components outside of tests will factor into our grade. For example on our hematology and oncology block something like 15% of our grade was based on a team in class problem set (that I'm pretty sure everyone scored a 100 on).

That being said, your grades in pre-clinical classes really don't matter for residency (according to my advisor, MS4s, and everyone else I've talked to). Residency directors care about how well you will operate in the clinic, not how well you answer multiple choice tests (unless, of course, that's the Step1, which luckily we take a year after we enter the clinics so we have tons of experience solidifying the information with real clinical exposure). Mostly, I think, the administration sees it as a way to ensure that very few people fail (if you're aiming for a 90, you probably won't get below a 70) and to provide goals for people who excel in that context. For me, it can be nice sometimes to have a carrot sticking out in front of me; otherwise, despite my noble and deeply altruistic tendencies, I'd probably just cram all the information a few days before the test, and that helps nobody.

As for how H/P/F changes the way classmates interact with one another, it doesn't. All class grades are based on a set cut off, NOT on a curve. In our first class (MDTI, a hem/onc block), somewhere around 60% of the class scored high enough to earn honors. I'm told by the MS2s that in some classes last year that % was close to 90. Because we are only competing with ourselves, not others, people are really helpful towards one another. We have a huge Google drive stored with study guides, notes, and supplementary resources from classes over the past five years. Writing down notes does nothing to help me learn the material, so having access to those study guides has been a life saver more than once. People also post practice quizes, youtube videos, and other resources on our Facebook group all the time. Further, because everyone is in a learning team, you will always have someone available to help you out if you're having trouble with the material both in formal sessions (during small group) or informally if you decide to study together. I really couldn't stress enough how little of an impact H/P/F has had on our class dynamics.

I hope this behemoth of a post helps answer some of your questions! This is what happens when I'm trying to avoid writing a research proposal on a Monday night... oof. Good luck with your decisions and feel free to PM me if you want to know anything else.

 

[mmmcdowe]

Sorry for the typos. anyways, now that the Yankees arent stomping the Sox in front of 100 Columbia students (we got tickets as a school), here are some other things to consider. As i said before, all teachers are volunteers here, it isnt part of the tenure of our school. This doesnt mean every professor is a better teacher compared to other programs, but it does mean that they are all personally committed to your education. We are true pass fail and unranked for the pre clinicals. This isnt to make you work less hard, but it gives you peace of mind and the confidence to take advantage of the flexible curriculum. We have lecture and small group, but unless you have an exam, patient visit, etc, it is all non manditory. This allows people to attend the learning experiences that are most efficient for them and use the other time otherwise. We have a essentially full year and a half of electives starting about 6 months before sub internships and 9 months before match applications are sent out. This gives you more time to explore your interests, figure out your specialty, and strengthen your app. The scholarly project is a great research time, but it doesnt have to be research. You can do up to 6 months abroad instead, create a website about washington heights, draw collages of patients in hospital versus clinic, etc (these are all real examples). Not only do we have as many or more second degree than other programs, but you are allowed to attend elsewhere to acquire it if it suites your goals.

 

[Optimus-Prime]

If you like ortho.. consider that HSS is right down the street for networking and away rotations if you go to columbia, so is NYU.

 

[yankees26]

as we talk, i still think that duke should be more in your decision. A full-ride from Duke is probably your best bet! You mentioned that location to an extent was not a top priority, so I say definitely give it a chance. Think about all those mulahhh

 

[Sophocles]

as we talk, i still think that duke should be more in your decision. A full-ride from Duke is probably your best bet! You mentioned that location to an extent was not a top priority, so I say definitely give it a chance. Think about all those mulahhh

I completely agree. I told the applicant that the decision should really be between Columbia and Duke since Columbia has things that I feel are more appealing to the applicant (P/F unranked, extremely close to family, good record with surgical specialties- although Penn has this as well-etc.) and Duke is not only an amazing program but the financial incentive would be hard to compete with.

 

[yankees26]

I completely agree. I told the applicant that the decision should really be between Columbia and Duke since Columbia has things that I feel are more appealing to the applicant (P/F unranked, extremely close to family, good record with surgical specialties- although Penn has this as well-etc.) and Duke is not only an amazing program but the financial incentive would be hard to compete with.

I think the Perelman would more than provide this as well. It definitely has long history of matching at top surgical residencies. But, the OP should not pass on Duke so easily. It is at the same level as Columbia and even Perelman so the money should not be overlooked.

 

[Sophocles]

Yeah, in my post I acknowledged that Penn is strong in that as well. I was simply stating that if both schools were equal and were giving the person what they wanted, such as a strong hx of surgical placements, Columbia would be higher on the list IMO because it also places them w/in close proximity of their family and curriculum would allow them to be able to explore more opportunities.

 

[yankees26]

i think we disagree on "more opportunities." Perelman is within close proximity to Jersey. Depending on where in Jersey, it might be even closer. But, maybe the OP should chime in before we take over the thread haha

 

[Sophocles]

Absolutely right, actually. My mind is fried and I was thinking it was farther than that. The OP told me their family lived near Columbia but if Perelman is close enough, it might not make that big of a difference to influence this decision. Plus, OP has stated multiple times that location isn't that big of a concern.

 

[yankees26]

very true, and the OP should wait to see the financial aid for both schools and weight that with the cost of living. should be something to consider for sure

 

[smurfsnowman123]

Go with Columbia and not Penn! The students at Columbia are very relaxed and happy for some reason. It's not a coincidence that there is less pressure w/o the H/P/F system at Columbia. If you work hard, you will match well in surgery since Columbia students normally do just fine anyway.

 

[yankees26]

The same can just as easily be said about Penn. Let's stop going back and forth 🙂

Go with Columbia and not Penn! The students at Columbia are very relaxed and happy for some reason. It's not a coincidence that there is less pressure w/o the H/P/F system at Columbia. If you work hard, you will match well in surgery since Columbia students normally do just fine anyway.

 

[North meets South]

The same can just as easily be said about Penn. Let's stop going back and forth 🙂

Replying to every single post that includes anything remotely positive about Columbia makes you look incredibly neurotic, considering you do not even attend Penn.