COVID vaccine general thread

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$4 billion paid out over something like 30 years.

$8 billion paid out by Purdue for Oxycontin.

Not exactly sure what the argument is. From what I recall, you believe there is no virus. Not sure how many people you convinced there.

Let's say there is. What's the way out of it? I know you won't get a vaccine. We can continue wearing masks and let nature take its course. Fast or slow. We can do immunizations. Again, sounds like you don't believe in them. It is one of those things that if everyone around you gets one, I guess you won't have to worry about government payout (there won't be one with this vaccine anyway). Makes me look like a ******* for getting one and trying to move past this pandemic.
The argument is that thousands of people have been truly hurt by vaccines over the years. It's not a rare occurrence. Just like indiscriminate use of opioid drugs have destroyed the lives of countless others.

The use of these vaccines, regardless of its merits, will be used to "reopen" the country and the rest of the world. Which is my short term hope.

There will be another pandemic soon enough and lockdowns will ensue again. This will be on repeat until what is needed to be accomplished will be complete.
 
Since the virus only contains RNA it must first be converted into DNA hence you must use RT- PCR
Good Point. Makes sense. you are correct, the false positive is based on the number of cycles
 
Good Point. Makes sense. So you are correct, the false positive is based on the number of cycles
Exactly, if you amplify enough times you can turn anything positive since the test is so sensitive, it will pick up any old viral genetic fragments.
 
Why don't you put up some numbers of preventable diseases though?
If you mean to argue that vaccines have prevented many diseases that plagued society?

Many of the benefits of vaccines are actually acquired from other public health measures such as clean water and sanitation. These 2 things were the greatest achievements of modern society.
 
You said vaccines are not very safe. Billions paid out. I am asking for your view of alternate reality. Your world without it.

So we invest in clean water and better sanitation to fix all these problems?
 
You said vaccines are not very safe. Billions paid out. I am asking for your view of alternate reality. Your world without it.

So we invest in clean water and better sanitation to fix all these problems?
We can start by being more transparent with prescription treatments, like Ivernmectin. Dr. Kory should not have to beg the government to review his research. and if you read the studies real time, Ivermectin works in Early Treatment.
 
You said vaccines are not very safe. Billions paid out. I am asking for your view of alternate reality. Your world without it.

So we invest in clean water and better sanitation to fix all these problems?
Most of humanity's woes stem from lack of natural organic foods and unnecessary obsession with the medical system. Imagine how many chronic diseases can be wiped out just from this simple solution.

If individuals have healthy strong immune systems, many of these so called viruses won't even be an issue.

Instead of spending trillions of dollars in vaccinating and locking down countries, we could have spent that money on revolutionizing our agricultural methods to produce pesticide free and wholesome nutrition for most of society.
 
People don't question how in our modern society with so much technological advancements, most people are not able to consume natural foods that our ancestors had readily available.
 
The government has paid out more than $3.4 billion in vaccine injuries since the inception of the program during the Regan adminstration. Injuries are defined as those that cause harm to the patient that can be short term or long term. Examples are paralysis, autoimmune disorders, or death.

If vaccine injuries were such a rare occurrence there would be no point in creating this program nor would there be such a large compensation having been doled out.

LOL come on dude. Go to HRSA Data and statistics website. You can pull up a whole PDF file displaying total number of vaccines given and the total number of claims to the injury program, and that INCLUDES claims that were dismissed. Lets do the math:

Total number of vaccines given between 1/1/2006 and 12/31/2018: 3,761,744,351
Total number of petitions for compensation to INCLUDE dismissed claims: 7,565

7,565 / 3,761,744,361 = 2.011^e-6

2.011^e-6 x 100 = 2.011^e-4 = 0.0002%


Man those darn vaccines sure are causing all kinds of problems.
 
You said vaccines are not very safe. Billions paid out. I am asking for your view of alternate reality. Your world without it.

So we invest in clean water and better sanitation to fix all these problems?
I can also ask you, let's assume vaccines are the greatest things along with mask wearing and social distancing.

What happens when the next pandemic shows up, we keep locking down countries and repeat this charade again?
 
LOL come on dude. Go to HRSA Data and statistics website. You can pull up a whole PDF file displaying total number of vaccines given and the total number of claims to the injury program, and that INCLUDES claims that were dismissed. Lets do the math:

Total number of vaccines given between 1/1/2006 and 12/31/2018: 3,761,744,351
Total number of petitions for compensation to INCLUDE dismissed claims: 7,565

7,565 / 3,761,744,361 = 2.011^e-6

2.011^e-6 x 100 = 2.011^e-4 = 0.0002%


Man those darn vaccines sure are causing all kinds of problems.
That data does not show the complete picture since there are many people hurt by the vaccines that do not seek litigation for many reasons, lack of financial resources to do so and knowledge of know how.

Many people don't even know this federal program exists. If these are rare occurrences, why is the federal government protecting these vaccine manufacturers?

Also why is the data only showing from the year 2006, this program was started during the Regan adminstration?
 
In other words, dude just trust me bro
Not everything can be proven thru peer reviewed studies and data as you call it.

For example, it is general knowledge that crack cocaine was intentionally distributed into inner city black neighborhoods for nefarious reasons. There is actually no "evidence" to back up this assertion. Yet it is commonly believed to be true.

Vaccine manufacturers and big pharma have the power and resources to hide their inquities. Why do you expect them to publish data that incriminates themselves?

Just because an issue can't be quantified it doesn't mean it's false.
 
I can also ask you, let's assume vaccines are the greatest things along with mask wearing and social distancing.

What happens when the next pandemic shows up, we keep locking down countries and repeat this charade again?

I have no idea what the next pandemic will bring or when it will happen. Do you recall the last pandemic and what happened before Covid one? You seem to know the answer. Clearly we weren't prepared for this one but you already know the pattern for years to come.

And I do agree that things you mention are important. Clean water and proper nutrition. I highly doubt it would eliminate all the issues of the present. It is just absurd to dismiss what happened over the last year as a charade.

Anyway, months into this, you barely changed your stance on the mere existence of the virus. Global conspiracy continues.
 
My hospital is overreacting, now they have a damn security guard inside the pharmacy 24/7 literally sitting there watching the ultra freezer with the vaccine in it.

It's so ****ing annoying, now I can't operate how I usually do in the night time with the movies, loud rap music, video games because there is someone from the security office there.

And get this, even though technically no one is supposed to be inside the pharmacy when the pharmacist is not there, if I step out, the security guard is allowed to remain there.


Dude - I have a good idea. Put up a partition around the freezer which will block his view. Say it’s simply due to HIPPA concerns. The only thing this would not cover is the loud rap music.
 
I am following other forums and seem like people who have gotten the shot are experiencing injection soreness and mild fever. Nothing alarming so far but it’s supposed to be worse after 2nd dose.

My friend works for hospital system and he says most physicians are very keen on getting one; even ophthalmologists are asking when will be their turn? lol

Nurses on the other hand were less enthusiastic. He said only 40% of nurses wanted one which surprised him.


When I got mine 5 days ago this has been my experience:

- The sore arm thing is very real.. Damn!!! My shoulder was sore. Could not sleep on it for a couple nights.

- I had a 99.7 degree temp for about 8 hours and I got lethargic and shaky for one night. Slight decrease in appetite

That is all I can report for now. I get my flu shot every year (never get any side effects) and I can say that you could likely expect a little more side effects from this one than vaccines you have had in the past.
 
Just a friendly reminder than SDN is not a platform for anti-vaccine, anti-health, or anti-science rhetoric. It's ok to have a respectful discussion of concerns, limitations, etc but we aren't going to give a voice to anti-vax campaigns.
 
Hoping no one is experiencing Bell’s palsy. Im sure it wont be reported in the media but if someone here does get it let us know haha
You do realize how silly you sound? The incidence of Bells Palsy reported in the trials was less than the incidence of Bells Palsy in the general population? One patient in the Moderna trial was struck by lightning. I guess that was caused the microchip the vaccine implants. What about the 75 y/o that had a heart attack last week after being vaccinated? Was that due to the vaccine?
CORRELATION IS NOT CAUSATION.
 
Surprised you didn't hit 1993 yet

Bell's palsy could occur after actual viral infection. It's not like the proposed mechanisms are mysterious
 
You do realize how silly you sound? The incidence of Bells Palsy reported in the trials was less than the incidence of Bells Palsy in the general population? One patient in the Moderna trial was struck by lightning. I guess that was caused the microchip the vaccine implants. What about the 75 y/o that had a heart attack last week after being vaccinated? Was that due to the vaccine?
CORRELATION IS NOT CAUSATION.
Yes. Thank you for that info. If we were following “science” and “common sense”, why are we still wearing masks in restaurants to go to our seats only to take them off when we eat? My point is, all these claims of whether this works or it will have all these side effects or not is a strawman argument. The only right answer would be, we dont know. YOU DONT KNOW. Why? Because you just dont lol.

Even the people who made this thing dont know lol

Below is from Moderna covid 19 vaccine fact sheet.


• FDA has authorized the emergency use of the Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine, which is not an FDA-approved vaccine.
• The recipient or their caregiver has the option to accept or refuse the Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine.
• The significant known and potential risks and benefits of the Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine, and the extent to which such risks and benefits are unknown.

Scary part is when the patient asks what the risks are or how safe the vaccine is, I would have to tell them I do not know. How many of you would tell them its not FDA approved?
 
When I got mine 5 days ago this has been my experience:

- The sore arm thing is very real.. Damn!!! My shoulder was sore. Could not sleep on it for a couple nights.

- I had a 99.7 degree temp for about 8 hours and I got lethargic and shaky for one night. Slight decrease in appetite

That is all I can report for now. I get my flu shot every year (never get any side effects) and I can say that you could likely expect a little more side effects from this one than vaccines you have had in the past.
My biggest concern is long term effects. No one really knows... kinda scary. 😳
 
My biggest concern is long term effects. No one really knows... kinda scary. 😳


It’s true - I have a little bit of anxiety about that. But - sooner or later we will all have to, “get with the program”.

Once the FDA approves it, you can expect it to be mandated either by way of law, or passively by way of employment or society participation.

I was taught at a young age, “you can’t fight city hall”. If this thing is the end of me, I will do the best I can to show respect for myself, others, and appreciation for the great life that I have.

This mass hysteria that is gripping the world and putting it on edge.. I want nothing to do with it. After I get my second dose I am going to Disney world and will do the best I can to enjoy life.
 
You do realize how silly you sound? The incidence of Bells Palsy reported in the trials was less than the incidence of Bells Palsy in the general population? One patient in the Moderna trial was struck by lightning. I guess that was caused the microchip the vaccine implants. What about the 75 y/o that had a heart attack last week after being vaccinated? Was that due to the vaccine?
CORRELATION IS NOT CAUSATION.
Also, if what youre claiming is true, the fact that there was less Bell’s palsy in vaccine population compared to general population, does that mean covid vaccine also effective against Bell’s palsy?! Haha
 
If we were following “science” and “common sense”, why are we still wearing masks in restaurants to go to our seats only to take them off when we eat?
You wear a mask while you're close to other diners then take it off at your seat when you're able to remain at a distance. Sure, just being in the restaurant is a risk but we should be making every effort to reduce that risk.
My biggest concern is long term effects. No one really knows... kinda scary. 😳
True but we know that covid infection carries the potential for long term effects. The vaccine may as well but it most likely will not. If it does, it will probably carry lower risk than actual infection.
 

Apparently UK guidance "recommends" vaccine substitution on the 2nd shot in the series if product for the initial immunization isn't available

Being that Moderna's hasn't received approval for emergency supply in the UK yet, they may be faced with the prospect of doing Pfizer + AZN combos. Or doing 12 weeks between Pfizer shots
 

Apparently UK guidance "recommends" vaccine substitution on the 2nd shot in the series if product for the initial immunization isn't available

Being that Moderna's hasn't received approval for emergency supply in the UK yet, they may be faced with the prospect of doing Pfizer + AZN combos. Or doing 12 weeks between Pfizer shots
That seems... problematic
 
Sure, just being in the restaurant is a risk but we should be making every effort to reduce that risk.
I agree. Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good. Sure in a perfectly risk averse world in door dining would be banned completely. Is that really what the people who complain about masks want? Of course not, it is a bad faith argument.

Every instance of wearing a mask deduces risk. Yes it’s annoying but I don’t see how healthcare professionals can possibly be on the anti-mask side of the argument.
 
I mean are they actually gonna do RCTs of various mix-and-match combos... prob not. If all 8 OWS vaccines are authorized that would be 28 trials (or 56 if you hypothesize that order matters... somehow)

Might as well get your 2nd priming inoculation from a 'natural' challenge
 
True but we know that covid infection carries the potential for long term effects. The vaccine may as well but it most likely will not. If it does, it will probably carry lower risk than actual infection.
The vaccine just gives you covid19 spike proteins. Harmless protein. It doesn't do jack sh1t to your long term health. It's not "probably", it definitely has a lower risk than getting replicating active viruses wreaking havoc in your body.

Damn, people are a bunch of irrational wimps.
 
Yes. Thank you for that info. If we were following “science” and “common sense”, why are we still wearing masks in restaurants to go to our seats only to take them off when we eat? My point is, all these claims of whether this works or it will have all these side effects or not is a strawman argument. The only right answer would be, we dont know. YOU DONT KNOW. Why? Because you just dont lol.

Even the people who made this thing dont know lol
I believe Fauci admits that we will not know the long term effects after 1-2 years. He also said the new strain is not as bad, but the mainstream media is saying otherwise
 
The vaccine just gives you covid19 spike proteins. Harmless protein. It doesn't do jack sh1t to your long term health. It's not "probably", it definitely has a lower risk than getting replicating active viruses wreaking havoc in your body.

Damn, people are a bunch of irrational wimps.
That’s disinformation and anti science rhetoric. According to the New England Journal, the spike protein from the actual original virus can cause a cytokine storm- a strong immune response.
 
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I have no idea what the next pandemic will bring or when it will happen. Do you recall the last pandemic and what happened before Covid one? You seem to know the answer. Clearly we weren't prepared for this one but you already know the pattern for years to come.

And I do agree that things you mention are important. Clean water and proper nutrition. I highly doubt it would eliminate all the issues of the present. It is just absurd to dismiss what happened over the last year as a charade.

Anyway, months into this, you barely changed your stance on the mere existence of the virus. Global conspiracy continues.
There was two pandemics that were worse than COVID. One was the Bubonic plague and the other was the Spanish flu of 1918
 
It’s true - I have a little bit of anxiety about that. But - sooner or later we will all have to, “get with the program”.

Once the FDA approves it, you can expect it to be mandated either by way of law, or passively by way of employment or society participation.

I was taught at a young age, “you can’t fight city hall”. If this thing is the end of me, I will do the best I can to show respect for myself, others, and appreciation for the great life that I have.

This mass hysteria that is gripping the world and putting it on edge.. I want nothing to do with it. After I get my second dose I am going to Disney world and will do the best I can to enjoy life.
By your logic “you cannot fight city hall”, America would still be a colony to the British
 
You wear a mask while you're close to other diners then take it off at your seat when you're able to remain at a distance. Sure, just being in the restaurant is a risk but we should be making every effort to reduce that risk.

True but we know that covid infection carries the potential for long term effects. The vaccine may as well but it most likely will not. If it does, it will probably carry lower risk than actual infection.
There is no data to prove that the vaccine will most likely not cause long term effects.
 
There is no data to prove that the vaccine will most likely not cause long term effects.
The vaccine codes for a portion of the virus. Is there any reason to suggest that being introduced to the spike protein carries a higher risk than being exposed to the actual virus?
That’s disinformation and anti science rhetoric. According to the New England Journal, the spike protein from the actual original virus can cause a cytokine storm- a strong immune response.
That's not a long term effect though. Cytokine response peaks after what, <7 days? If that was a legitimate concern we would already have data to support it.
 
The vaccine codes for a portion of the virus. Is there any reason to suggest that being introduced to the spike protein carries a higher risk than being exposed to the actual virus?

That's not a long term effect though. Cytokine response peaks after what, <7 days? If that was a legitimate concern we would already have data to support it.
The original poster said the spike protein does not do anything and is harmless. Which is disinfo and not based on science.
 
The vaccine codes for a portion of the virus. Is there any reason to suggest that being introduced to the spike protein carries a higher risk than being exposed to the actual virus?

That's not a long term effect though. Cytokine response peaks after what, <7 days? If that was a legitimate concern we would already have data to support it.
There is no data to prove the comparison between the vaccine and the original virus because it was done in a short time span.
 
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The vaccine codes for a portion of the virus. Is there any reason to suggest that being introduced to the spike protein carries a higher risk than being exposed to the actual virus?

That's not a long term effect though. Cytokine response peaks after what, <7 days? If that was a legitimate concern we would already have data to support it.
There is whole review article from NEJM on cytokine storm cause by the spike protein. So yes, we have data that the spike protein from SARS-COV-2 can cause cytokine storm. I agree with you that anaphylaxis caused by this cytokine storm is a short term effect, not a long term effect. And we have data on anaphylaxis caused by the vaccine itself.

But @Momus conjecturing a baseless opinion that the spike protein causes no long term effects without data is anti science.
 
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There is no data to prove the comparison between the vaccine and the original virus because it was done in a short time span.
There is whole review article from NEJM on cytokine storm cause by the spike protein. So yes, we have data that the spike protein from SARS-COV-2 can cause cytokine storm. I agree with you that anaphylaxis caused by this cytokine storm is a short term effect, not a long term effect. And we have data on anaphylaxis caused by the vaccine itself.

But @Momus conjecturing a baseless opinion that the spike protein causes no long term effects without data is anti science.
Momus was responding to my comment comparing the vaccine to actual infection. Are you trying to say that the vaccine somehow carries a higher risk of cytokine storm than actual covid infection? As I said, that's also not a long term effect.

You've mentioned this NEJM article twice now, care to share a link? I have a sneaking suspicion that it does not support your position.
 
Also, if what youre claiming is true, the fact that there was less Bell’s palsy in vaccine population compared to general population, does that mean covid vaccine also effective against Bell’s palsy?! Haha
I am trying not to get banned. But you are a sorry excuse for a pharmacist. Your understanding of data amd logic could not be found in a thimble with scanning electron microscope.
 
The vaccine just gives you covid19 spike proteins. Harmless protein. It doesn't do jack sh1t to your long term health. It's not "probably", it definitely has a lower risk than getting replicating active viruses wreaking havoc in your body.

Damn, people are a bunch of irrational wimps.
The vaccine is definitely not no-risk, but it is as low a risk given the current circumstances and we know nothing that should stop the current vaccinations. The serious side effects are still within the rare (1:200,000) if not the very rare (1:2M).

mRNA Vaccines 101 (Written before COVID and actually was addressing Zika):

It's hard to argue that this is not objective in presentation (maybe even a bit too positive).

There are downsides as the article writes: those with autoimmune responses have a plausible chance of reacting catastrophically to an mRNA vaccine. And in longer term situations, mRNA naked has a probability of causing autoimmune reactions if found in the improper cells. This work was early 00s, and I remember the seminars on those issues as finding therapeutic spinoffs from the Human Genome Project was the rage at the time.

Yes, the vaccine *potentially* can do quite a bit in long-term health and we all hope that this remains theoretical, but we've not had enough time to really test this vaccine over a time period to weed these problems out. The guy at NIH who is usually the most tech progressive on these matters, Dr. Michael Kurilla, either abstained or voted against the current wording on grounds that the age categories really make a difference on risk vs. benefit given what we don't know about the long-term use. That wasn't lost of any of us. But this is all theoretical at present except for the anaphylactic which impacts Pfizer.


Also, on VCIP, this is a reminder that the program was instantiated due to widespread observations of TDwP associations with encephalopathy and other neurological issues which is why we have TDaP and Td today. The last two EUA's, Dengvaxia and AVA, were extremely problematic and the only reason that they are not included in the VCIP statistics is that uniformed do not report through that system and Dengvaxia was observed elsewhere as we do not have endemic dengue. I personally had the AVA 6 injection hell as that was expected of my generation working in a lab without any serious effects (and arm and abdominal pain around the injection is annoying but not serious).

I am definitely not anti-vaccine, but I definitely would be a bit less of an overt cheerleader until we get enough vaccinated and a long enough observation period to really get these to normal approval. But in the interim, it is a nuanced presentation, and we do owe it to our patients to be given a fair choice. For me, it's absolutely necessary for front-line clinical workers, institutionalized residents (nursing home, prison, group home), miners, bartenders, and those who interact with the stupid parts of the public like the police. A great case can be made for geriatrics in general. Pediatrics is much less of a good argument unless they have underlying conditions. I think it's not a clear-cut case for adults who are normally healthy without underlying conditions.
 
There is whole review article from NEJM on cytokine storm cause by the spike protein. So yes, we have data that the spike protein from SARS-COV-2 can cause cytokine storm. I agree with you that anaphylaxis caused by this cytokine storm is a short term effect, not a long term effect. And we have data on anaphylaxis caused by the vaccine itself.

But @Momus conjecturing a baseless opinion that the spike protein causes no long term effects without data is anti science.
This is like arguing you'd rather have the active covid19 viruses to get your cytokine storm vs. controlled small doses of spike protein. You gonna get covid19 sooner or later and risk dying vs. almost 100% not dying by just getting the vaccine. I'd argue only a dummy will pick an almost certainty of getting covid19 in the near future vs. getting vaccine now just because of very small chance of "cytokine storm".

What's the chance of dying of due to covid vs. vaccine nowadays? I guess you'd rather take higher chance of winning the death lotto.
 
This is like arguing you'd rather have the active covid19 viruses to get your cytokine storm vs. controlled small doses of spike protein. You gonna get covid19 sooner or later and risk dying vs. almost 100% not dying by just getting the vaccine. I'd argue only a dummy will pick an almost certainty of getting covid19 in the near future vs. getting vaccine now just because of very small chance of "cytokine storm".

What's the chance of dying of due to covid vs. vaccine nowadays? I guess you'd rather take higher chance of winning the death lotto.
The chance of surivival if one does not have commorbide conditions( HTN, COPD, DM, Cancer, HLD, ACS etc) is 99%. That does not mean the virus is totally harmless. And the survival rate is based on the CDC website. For the vaccine, We do not know whether it is a small chance of getting anaphylaxis. But we do know that anaphylaxis is a short term side effect. Also, six people died in the Pfizer trial. But the data is hard to apply because the vaccine was created in a short time span.

Again, I was commenting on the fact that you said the spike protein is harmless, which is incorrect.

Thanks for commenting.
 
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Momus was responding to my comment comparing the vaccine to actual infection. Are you trying to say that the vaccine somehow carries a higher risk of cytokine storm than actual covid infection? As I said, that's also not a long term effect.

You've mentioned this NEJM article twice now, care to share a link? I have a sneaking suspicion that it does not support your position.
I just responded to your question by saying there is no data to compare the risk of the vaccine vs risk of getting COVID because the vaccine was manufactured in a short time span. Not sure why you are asking that question.

Please look it up yourself. The medical lit on COVID is free. You are a pharmacist on this forum and you know how to look things up. I am not going to spoon feed you. All the review article as I have stated said is the spike protein does cause a cytokine storm which can lead to anaphylaxis. The spike protein is from the original SARS-cov-2.

Thanks for commenting.
 
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The chance of surivival if one does not have commorbide conditions( HTN, COPD, DM, Cancer, HLD, ACS etc) is 99%. That based on the CDC website. We do not know whether it is a small chance of getting anaphylaxis. But we do know that anaphylaxis is a short term side effect.

Again, I was commenting on the fact that you said the spike protein is harmless, which is incorrect.
I stand by my words the spike proteins in vaccine is PRETTY MUCH harmless. Will tell all my patients exactly that. Risk vs. benefit.

Is this stopping you from driving a car everyday? LMAO

Again, what is the chance to get cytokine storm after covid19 vaccination vs. death rate due to covid?
 
I stand by my words the spike proteins in vaccine is PRETTY MUCH harmless. Will tell all my patients exactly that. Risk vs. benefit.

Is this stopping you from driving a car everyday? LMAO

Again, what is the chance to get cytokine storm after covid19 vaccination vs. death rate due to covid?
Death rate from COVID virus is 1% vs vaccine= not sure.

Analogy of Driving a car is a false equivalency because Car has undergone multiple safety checks to ensure that it is safe. Also have Car companies rushed Car into the market without multiple safety checks? Do Cars get emergency authorized approval?

Thanks for commenting.
 
The driving a car thing is about exposure to other people.

Generally people don't get into car accidents every day but 'muh fatigue" has people across the world giving less of a crap about restrictions + the seasonality of respiratory viruses
 
I am definitely not anti-vaccine, but I definitely would be a bit less of an overt cheerleader until we get enough vaccinated and a long enough observation period to really get these to normal approval. But in the interim, it is a nuanced presentation, and we do owe it to our patients to be given a fair choice. For me, it's absolutely necessary for front-line clinical workers, institutionalized residents (nursing home, prison, group home), miners, bartenders, and those who interact with the stupid parts of the public like the police. A great case can be made for geriatrics in general. Pediatrics is much less of a good argument unless they have underlying conditions. I think it's not a clear-cut case for adults who are normally healthy without underlying conditions.
Where do you think the line should be drawn for healthy adults vs geriatric? I'm assuming you were referring to 65+ but what are your opinions on say 40-65? If I'm not mistaken they're also at a fairly high relative risk for hospitalization and death though obviously not to the same degree.
 
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