PhD/PsyD I love psych, but I want money..

[Lurking Oracle]

Yup, human factors like Ollie said! Super neato stuff. How people interact with robots and equipment, how people drive, lots of awesome stuff! There's national security and counterterror stuff in there now, too. Lots of funding opportunities from NSF/DoD.

Correct, but this is not offered by any of the solid PsyD programs of which I am aware. The programs with human factors emphasis are hardcore when it comes to quantitative, and are usually I/O (not even clinical PhD).

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[Grenth]

I did pretty poorly in general chemistry and physics, despite my best efforts, so I HIGHLY doubt I'd even be able to get into a med school, let alone survive its rigor. As of now the only thing I'm certain of is that psychology is my favorite subject and I'm good at it, and to make decent money from it I need to pursue higher education.

I feel you on the chemistry and physics. O chem was a nemesis of mine, although my MD route friends claim it isn't important once you get into med school. If you go the psych NP route you'll still need some of those hard science pre-reqs in order to earn the preliminary nursing degree, and my understanding is the job is largely med management and little psychotherapy, just because of the training and nature of the job. However, it's massively in demand and the pay is really good for the amount of schooling. I had a classmate with a BA in social work who was able to directly enter a Psych NP program after fulfilling a year of pre-reqs, and she loves med management, money, and crisis work, so it's a good fit.

Good luck, and good for you for asking this stuff now instead of senior year like so many.

 

[Lurking Oracle]

And just to add (sorry), but anecdotal claims, even if 100% true, of $100K+ incomes practically straight out of the gate are the exceptions. And exceptions are oh-so-very-much different from expectations.

 

[dissonance_]

.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Psych NP is a mid level prescriber with a nursing background. It has very very little to do with the field of psychology. Day to day work is very different. That's not good or bad, but it's a completely different field of practice.

 

[781639]

I feel you on the chemistry and physics. O chem was a nemesis of mine, although my MD route friends claim it isn't important once you get into med school. If you go the psych NP route you'll still need some of those hard science pre-reqs in order to earn the preliminary nursing degree, and my understanding is the job is largely med management and little psychotherapy, just because of the training and nature of the job. However, it's massively in demand and the pay is really good for the amount of schooling. I had a classmate with a BA in social work who was able to directly enter a Psych NP program after fulfilling a year of pre-reqs, and she loves med management, money, and crisis work, so it's a good fit.

Good luck, and good for you for asking this stuff now instead of senior year like so many.

do you happen to know which hard science courses I'd need? if I do a BS in psych, I'll be taking the intro bio series, as well as gen chem which I've taken. Now the question is whether I want to do nursing, as others have stated that Psych NP is hardly related to psych, or if I want to actually work with psychology. hmmm...

 

[781639]

My understanding is that there is a need for Psych NP's , and it can also be a lucrative career. However, please realize that you will always have to hang your license with an MD. For me, the latter is not worth it! IMO, might as well go for the MD/DO and have full autonomy

Can you elaborate on that? What do you mean by 'hang your license'?

 

[781639]

Psych NP is a mid level prescriber with a nursing background. It has very very little to do with the field of psychology. Day to day work is very different. That's not good or bad, but it's a completely different field of practice.

Thanks for the clarification! I work at a hospital so I'm going to see if I can possibly shadow some of these careers, though I fear most are locked to VA hospitals.

 

[dissonance_]

.

 

[781639]

Sorry for the jargon and confusion. I misspoke. 21 states allow for NP's to practice fully, without physician supervision-- I've only lived in the restrictive (red) states where NP's must be supervised by a physician
https://www.aanp.org/legislation-regulation/state-legislation/state-practice-environment

As t4c mentioned, comparing psych NP and clinical psych (Phd) is apples to oranges. I just meant that if you do want to prescribe/manage meds, you might as well go for the MD/DO (to have more freedom and not be geographically restricted). However, it is a very personal choice. Some people don't want the headache of full liability/extra schooling/etc and prefer to be supervised by a physician. Shadowing is a good idea, but don't be surprised if you get turned down due to HIPPA (privacy) rules. You're doing the right thing by reading and educating yourself. Relax, you have time

wow, that's frustrating. I'd like to work in california. I guess you're right, I do have time. I'm just panicking because I had a solid plan before when I was a bio major, but now I'm starting from scratch.

 

[Pragma]

One thing I haven't noticed a comment on is location. You probably will have to move at some point. CA is notoriously saturated for psychology, to the extent that some internship and postdoc positions are unpaid since there are so many people that want to work there (and so many large cohort FSPS programs there that prey upon students who prioritize living there).

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Agree with Ollie--it's going to be easier to geographically restrict yourself if you go the psych NP route. Just realize you'll be doing much different work than a psychologist.

A doctorate in psychology nets you some flexibility, and making a living in CA of course wouldn't be impossible. But it might require as much, or more, creativity and business acumen (alluding to some of the things PSYDR mentioned) as it does expertise in psychology.

In my case, I could've gone straight from fellowship to a 100k position in the city in which I'd trained. However, I moved to a different and much less-populated area, and the jobs here as a whole (i.e., in all fields) pay less. I would imagine that most psychologists who make into the six figures are earning money via a few different streams. Finding a standard, salaried six-figure psychology position isn't impossible, but I'd venture to say it's uncommon, particularly early in your career.

 

[PsychMajorUndergrad18]

IF your looking to make around 100k and use your psych BA (and possibly a I/O masters) go into HR. You will start at around 30-40k but then go up the payscale until you are a HR manager or director which makes around 100k. Also of you get a MA in I/O or a Ph.D you could also do consulting (where you make your own hours and own wages) or even adjunct while doing consulting to make a etra income.

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/management/human-resources-managers.htm
Heres a link talking about the salary and such from the BLS

 

[781639]

One thing I haven't noticed a comment on is location. You probably will have to move at some point. CA is notoriously saturated for psychology, to the extent that some internship and postdoc positions are unpaid since there are so many people that want to work there (and so many large cohort FSPS programs there that prey upon students who prioritize living there).

I'm fine with relocating if it comes to that.

Agree with Ollie--it's going to be easier to geographically restrict yourself if you go the psych NP route. Just realize you'll be doing much different work than a psychologist.

A doctorate in psychology nets you some flexibility, and making a living in CA of course wouldn't be impossible. But it might require as much, or more, creativity and business acumen (alluding to some of the things PSYDR mentioned) as it does expertise in psychology.

In my case, I could've gone straight from fellowship to a 100k position in the city in which I'd trained. However, I moved to a different and much less-populated area, and the jobs here as a whole (i.e., in all fields) pay less. I would imagine that most psychologists who make into the six figures are earning money via a few different streams. Finding a standard, salaried six-figure psychology position isn't impossible, but I'd venture to say it's uncommon, particularly early in your career.

Why did you turn down the 100k position, if you don't mind me asking?

IF your looking to make around 100k and use your psych BA (and possibly a I/O masters) go into HR. You will start at around 30-40k but then go up the payscale until you are a HR manager or director which makes around 100k. Also of you get a MA in I/O or a Ph.D you could also do consulting (where you make your own hours and own wages) or even adjunct while doing consulting to make a etra income.

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/management/human-resources-managers.htm
Heres a link talking about the salary and such from the BLS

I'm basically working as a management assistant right now, except I don't have that title nor some of the required authorizations. I've been doing this for the past three years, and I absolutely HATE working in HR because of it. I've literally had nightmares of working in HR for my career.

 

[erg923]

I'm fine with relocating if it comes to that.



Why did you turn down the 100k position, if you don't mind me asking?

I'm basically working as a management assistant right now, except I don't have that title nor some of the required authorizations. I've been doing this for the past three years, and I absolutely HATE working in HR because of it. I've literally had nightmares of working in HR for my career.

I would assume the benefits of the other position made the "total compensation" greater than the other, even though starting monetary salary was lower. 80k salary in the VA is probably a total compensation package of over 150k when looking at paid time off, retirement plan, pension, health insurance, life insurance, etc.

And of course there is something to be said about preferring certain practice environments. Private practice comes with billing headaches and dealing with managed care companies and their service limitations. Don't have to worry or spend any time on such nonsense in the VA.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I would assume the benefits of the other position made the "total compensation" greater than the other, even though starting monetary salary was lower. 80k salary in the VA is probably a total compensation package of over 150k when looking at paid time off, retirement plan, pension, health insurance, life insurance, etc.

And of course there is something to be said about preferring certain practice environments. Private practice comes with billing headaches and dealing with managed care companies and their service limitations. Don't have to worry or spend any time on such nonsense in the VA.

It was mostly just that I had another area of the country where I wanted to live, and a great position opened up there (here). Although as erg mentioned, practice environment also factored in, to a degree.

 

[Lurking Oracle]

Why did you turn down the 100k position, if you don't mind me asking?

AcronymAllergy has already responded, but I will add my deux centimes. In many (ok, most) locales, $100K/yr is a nice salary (if one actually gets that, which is rare, RARE, RARE!... and please note that I stated salary, which is different from income), but in SanFran, San Diego, or here in NYC... no, it is not really that much. Also, one has to factor in benefits, and, of course, those student loan payments if one's program was not funded.

 

[781639]

Wow working at a VA sounds great. What positions are typically available? There is a local VA that I might be able to shadow in, but in the meantime I'd appreciate any input you guys might have as well. Once again, thank you all for your time! I've learned a lot these past few days.

 

[erg923]

Wow working at a VA sounds great. What positions are typically available? There is a local VA that I might be able to shadow in, but in the meantime I'd appreciate any input you guys might have as well. Once again, thank you all for your time! I've learned a lot these past few days.

Well....work is called work for reason, but yes, it is one the more desirable places for psychologist due to hours, benefits, salary, and not having to worry about meeting billing requirements to justify your salary.

You wont be able to shadow any clinical work of psychologists due privacy laws.

If you're asking what types of roles psychologists serve at the VA, position range from very specialized such as neuropsychology, primary care mental health, trauma treatment, and inpatient psych to very broad such as working in the general mental health service. Psychologist also serve in administrative and program coordinating roles as well. Usually only after serving some amount of time doing clinical work. The VA has many opps for being involved in research and some jobs, especially within the MIRREC center will be primarily research with some opp for clinical work.

 

[781639]

"The only thing I feel I'd be weary of is research, as that's one of the salaries that has been consistently low in my searches. But then again I'm taking what the internet says with a huge grain of salt, so if a research position pays well I'm not going to be one to turn it down. "

There's research and then there's research. Academic medical, NIH/NSF/DARPA/VA research funded investigators, high end Psychology departments tend to make a pretty good living. The longer you survive in that career, the more lucrative it can get. 200K is not uncommon, 300K+ is plausible but difficult. Plus, there's the lifestyle issues. E.g., Several of my former mentors are paid to go all over the world to give a talk and then they tour around the city with various interesting people. I know one gentleman who pulls 100K a year just doing that 1-2 times a month. But these are unusual paths and nothing to count on.

"Ideally I'd like to work in Los Angeles or Santa Barbara, both of which are COLAs (correct me if I'm wrong). "

California is saturated. The best way to get there in my opinion from psych is to go to a funded PhD program, publish well, network well and then get an internship or postdoc at a good place in those areas (e.g., UCLA, Palo Alto VA).

"My initial goal was the med school route (as is all naive bio majors'). I recently realized I just wasn't a good fit for it, so I got out before it was too late, hence why I'm now pursuing psych. I've wanted to pursue psych even when on the med school route, but I was hesitant. Now I'm free to do so. "

In many ways, medical school is the easier path. Bio/organic chem isn't that bad. If you sucked at it, fix it.

"Can I make six figures with a PhD? Also, there seems to be a consensus that working at a VA is very promising, salary-wise. Can I work at a VA with a PhD, or is it PsyD restricted? I'm fairly new to psych so some of your abbreviations go over my head; what is AMC?

What psych route would, in your opinion, provide the best/highest salary?"

100K isn't a lot of money in my opinion. Just out of fellowship, a neurohospitalist physician can make 300K+. As far as highest salary psych, I think it is not a uniform answer. The path I am most familiar with is being a great researcher in a hot, fundable area and diversifying income streams. For example, I know a gentleman who is a professor at Oxford U. That pays ok. But, he makes a good bit of money testifying in big legal cases. Forensics can be a lucrative area. Civil law or criminal (depending). Submitting patents. Starting small businesses. For example, one could consult with various companies based on your area of expertise. E.g., if you know a lot about statistics . . . the person who wrote the matching algorithm for e*harmony is a psychologist. They are now quite wealthy. Invest wisely. Learn how to save money. Buy stocks when the stock market crashes. Start an IRA. Read bogleheads https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Getting_started There are many directions. Buy apartments/houses in university towns and rent them to students. Marry wisely. Stay away from people with a lot of debt, that spend irresponsibly, and have no ambition.

Basically, psych is fine. On average, it isn't the most lucrative career. If you are going to paint by numbers, going the physician route is way easier in terms of generating a good income without having to think outside of the box. Psychology classes are easier in undergrad. And, the underclass psyd route continues that lack of rigor. But. . . the physician route isn't that hard. You have to study harder in undergrad. Medical school is mostly memorization skills and long hours. A higher end PhD program in many fields is going to be substantially more challenging for the average soul. I wouldn't rule out medical school. I also wouldn't base my perception of the difficulty of a psychology career on undergraduate psychology courses.

This is a great response, but you've left me even more conflicted than before...
Now I'm questioning whether I made the right choice by switching my major to Psych. All I'm currently sure of is that I've loved my undergrad psych courses so far, and hated my undergrad chem/physics courses - mainly due to being better at psych and finding it more interesting, and being average at chem despite my best efforts. This last quarter I made it my goal to get A's in Chem 1C (intro to organic) and chem lab, and despite investing about 75% of my time to these classes, I ended up receiving a D in chem and a B in lab. I've received C's in every other chem course and their labs, as well as physics. I took that as a sign that I should switch, because maybe it just wasn't for me, and it'd be wiser to get out while there's time to recover.

It's been a goal of mine to become financially independent, and the methods you've listed are some that I'll definitely utilize despite my profession.

A few questions for you:
- How would I go about deciding which research options are going to reward me well?
- How is medical school the easier path? Or are psych grad school and med school routes equally difficult, but their difficulties are in different areas? (easier undergrad, harder post grad, etc)
- How will I know which path is right for me? How did you choose your path?

 

[smalltownpsych]

This is a great response, but you've left me even more conflicted than before...
Now I'm questioning whether I made the right choice by switching my major to Psych. All I'm currently sure of is that I've loved my undergrad psych courses so far, and hated my undergrad chem/physics courses - mainly due to being better at psych and finding it more interesting, and being average at chem despite my best efforts. This last quarter I made it my goal to get A's in Chem 1C (intro to organic) and chem lab, and despite investing about 75% of my time to these classes, I ended up receiving a D in chem and a B in lab. I've received C's in every other chem course and their labs, as well as physics. I took that as a sign that I should switch, because maybe it just wasn't for me, and it'd be wiser to get out while there's time to recover.

It's been a goal of mine to become financially independent, and the methods you've listed are some that I'll definitely utilize despite my profession.

A few questions for you:
- How would I go about deciding which research options are going to reward me well?
- How is medical school the easier path? Or are psych grad school and med school routes equally difficult, but their difficulties are in different areas? (easier undergrad, harder post grad, etc)
- How will I know which path is right for me? How did you choose your path?

One if the first signs during undergrad that it was the right choice for me to be a psychologist was when I loved both research methods and psycho-biology which were the two courses the rest of the psych undergrads hated most. Getting into grad school or med school is where much of the difficulty lies. Generally speaking, if you can make it in, then you have already demonstrated you have what it takes to do it.

 

[781639]

One if the first signs during undergrad that it was the right choice for me to be a psychologist was when I loved both research methods and psycho-biology which were the two courses the rest of the psych undergrads hated most. Getting into grad school or med school is where much of the difficulty lies. Generally speaking, if you can make it in, then you have already demonstrated you have what it takes to do it.

I enjoyed biopsych (that's our name for it) a lot, and have yet to take the research methods course. My incentive for post-undergrad education is the potential increase in salary.

 

[deleted343839]

How would I go about deciding which research options are going to reward me well?

It helps to work in an area where it's relatively easy to make a case for the importance of the work, it's not too politically controversial (eg, gun violence research, sex research), and it fits with trends in the sub-discipline (though increasingly requests for proposals will spell out the kinds of work they are looking for). One of the most valuable skills you can learn is how to "sell" your work to multiple audiences. Some of the other factors, such as the research support and equipment available to you, are not always within your immediate control. Beyond that baseline level of "fundability" it is up to your creativity, initiative, writing skills, and willingness to accept that well over half the time you will spend many hours on proposals that will never be funded. For a large project grant to the National Institutes of Health (the kind that a big-name R1 or AMC will expect of tenure-track faculty), the success rate on the first submission is about 10%. If you score well enough to be able to resubmit an application, the success rate goes upwards of 30%, but that still means that the overall odds are stacked against you. This is a long way of saying that you shouldn't go into research expecting rewards simply for showing up and being competent.

How is medical school the easier path? Or are psych grad school and med school routes equally difficult, but their difficulties are in different areas?

In some fields, including many areas of medicine, it is a long road to being competent, but once you have become so then it's much more likely that you will be well compensated for showing up and being competent. Medical training is not easy, but in terms of being able to make a 6-figure income after successfully meeting all the training requirements, taking all the tests, jumping through all the hoops, etc., your chances of landing a well paying job are much greater. In psychology you can do all the right things - ace your coursework, get published, win awards, etc. - and yet still have difficulty finding a tenure-track faculty job. There are plenty of people on their second, third, and fourth application cycles looking for a faculty job. Finding a clinical job is less of an uphill battle but the risk of low compensation is high, especially in saturated areas. The market for physicians has some of these features but not to the same extremes.

How will I know which path is right for me? How did you choose your path?

Everyone has a different answer to this question because everyone wants something different out of life. I chose psychology for reasons of intellectual interest and what I perceived as a range of appealing job options/functions. I also was under the impression that being a psychologist would make it easier to balance work and family than being a physician, though in hindsight I question whether that's true. My first job was a calculated move based more on income potential and career advancement than a burning passion for what my job description says I do. And yet, I do love what I do. I am of the mindset that passion and drive can come from learning to do something well and having an opportunity to demonstrate it. Notice that most of my decision-making has not centered on money. If I had been more motivated by earning potential I would have gone into medicine.

 

[781639]

It helps to work in an area where it's relatively easy to make a case for the importance of the work, it's not too politically controversial (eg, gun violence research, sex research), and it fits with trends in the sub-discipline (though increasingly requests for proposals will spell out the kinds of work they are looking for). One of the most valuable skills you can learn is how to "sell" your work to multiple audiences. Some of the other factors, such as the research support and equipment available to you, are not always within your immediate control. Beyond that baseline level of "fundability" it is up to your creativity, initiative, writing skills, and willingness to accept that well over half the time you will spend many hours on proposals that will never be funded. For a large project grant to the National Institutes of Health (the kind that a big-name R1 or AMC will expect of tenure-track faculty), the success rate on the first submission is about 10%. If you score well enough to be able to resubmit an application, the success rate goes upwards of 30%, but that still means that the overall odds are stacked against you. This is a long way of saying that you shouldn't go into research expecting rewards simply for showing up and being competent.



In some fields, including many areas of medicine, it is a long road to being competent, but once you have become so then it's much more likely that you will be well compensated for showing up and being competent. Medical training is not easy, but in terms of being able to make a 6-figure income after successfully meeting all the training requirements, taking all the tests, jumping through all the hoops, etc., your chances of landing a well paying job are much greater. In psychology you can do all the right things - ace your coursework, get published, win awards, etc. - and yet still have difficulty finding a tenure-track faculty job. There are plenty of people on their second, third, and fourth application cycles looking for a faculty job. Finding a clinical job is less of an uphill battle but the risk of low compensation is high, especially in saturated areas. The market for physicians has some of these features but not to the same extremes.



Everyone has a different answer to this question because everyone wants something different out of life. I chose psychology for reasons of intellectual interest and what I perceived as a range of appealing job options/functions. I also was under the impression that being a psychologist would make it easier to balance work and family than being a physician, though in hindsight I question whether that's true. My first job was a calculated move based more on income potential and career advancement than a burning passion for what my job description says I do. And yet, I do love what I do. I am of the mindset that passion and drive can come from learning to do something well and having an opportunity to demonstrate it. Notice that most of my decision-making has not centered on money. If I had been more motivated by earning potential I would have gone into medicine.

So, basically, the med school route is safer, although not easier/harder. Interesting.
On a side note, I've never understood how a lot of people don't regard their salary as a defining factor in choosing a career. Maybe if I understood it better it would help me in choosing mine. To me, more money equals a less stressful and more comfortable life. It's not that I'm obsessed with the amount of money in my bank account, I just want to live without having to worry about payments, and be able to travel on occasion as well (I've stated that photography is a passion of mine, so this ties in with traveling).

 

[erg923]

To me, more money equals a less stressful and more comfortable life. It's not that I'm obsessed with the amount of money in my bank account, I just want to live without having to worry about payments, and be able to travel on occasion as well (I've stated that photography is a passion of mine, so this ties in with traveling).

This is a complete and utter illusion. Everyone worries about money. Everyone. When you have more of it, you just "worry" about it in a different way. Are you familiar with the not so uncommon plight of lottery winners?

One of the best philosophies of "money" that I have ever heard is the story of John Rockefellers inspiration to start Standard Oil. He has famously said that when he was young, he asked a minister what his purpose was in life. He responded that his purpose was to make as much money as he possibly can...and then give it all away. Which, is what he and his son and his son after him have done. But you don't think that came without stress and anxiety, do you?

 

[781639]

Money matters. And it is important to me. Don't know about you but if I'm not interested in something it's hard to make myself do it.

I agree, hence my dilemma. Should I pursue my interest and take a financial risk or should I force myself and make much more money.

This is a complete and utter illusion. Everyone worries about money. Everyone. When you have more of it, you just "worry" about it in a different way. Are you familiar with the not so uncommon plight of lottery winners?

One of the best philosophies of "money" that I have ever heard is the story of John Rockefellers inspiration to start Standard Oil. He has famously said that when he was young, he asked a minister what his purpose was in life. He responded that his purpose was to make as much money as he possibly can...and then give it all away. Which, is what he and his son and his son after him have done. But you don't think that came without stress and anxiety, do you?

I'm sure there is still worry and anxiety even if you're a millionaire, however, how can anyone possibly think it's better to not have more money? Are you saying that you'd be happiest if you were dirt poor?

 

[erg923]

, however, how can anyone possibly think it's better to not have more money? Are you saying that you'd be happiest if you were dirt poor?

I have already answered that question. I said there is an asymptote. This is empirically supported.

@vashibashi , I don't know what your experiences are, but most people on this earth do not have much means..in terms of cash. Are you suggesting that all these people are unhappy, or have to be less happy than me because I have a large home and send my children to private schools? I would encourage you to do a literature review of concept of happiness and the common factors that are found across cultures. "Money" isn't in the top 10.

 

[WisNeuro]

I'm sure there is still worry and anxiety even if you're a millionaire, however, how can anyone possibly think it's better to not have more money? Are you saying that you'd be happiest if you were dirt poor?

Data is limited, but the last bigger survey type of study showed that after about 75k, happiness levels don't really change with higher salary. I believe the point that others are trying to get across is that after a certain point, the happiness you get in life secondary to money is a diminishing return. Most research would suggest that career satisfaction and fulfillment is much more important than money as a factor.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I agree, hence my dilemma. Should I pursue my interest and take a financial risk or should I force myself and make much more money.


I'm sure there is still worry and anxiety even if you're a millionaire, however, how can anyone possibly think it's better to not have more money? Are you saying that you'd be happiest if you were dirt poor?

When I was young, poor, and single I spent a couple of hours a day at the beach and had relatively few cares or worries. Money does come in handy, but some days I really wonder.

 

[Ollie123]

I suspect most people on this board want to earn a decent salary that allows them to live comfortably. That is different from what MamaPhD was saying about money not being priority #1. If that were the case, everyone would go into investment banking or neurosurgery. Anyone who did get stuck in something like psychology would just work 95 hours a week (more patients = more money, right?). For most of us, once you pass a certain point, other factors matter more (e.g. do I like what I do? Do I have enough free time?). Everyone's threshold for what constitutes enough is different.

Yours is probably too high for someone considering psychology. So going into psychology would be a big risk. Part of that may be due to living in one of the more expensive parts of the country. A 70k salary in Omaha is going to allow you to live immensely more comfortably than a 100k salary in San Francisco. You can be a really mediocre (or even downright awful) physician and still make well over 100k with ease. Its possible, but not by any means a guarantee in psychology. So if 100k is your threshold for acceptable, then understand you are taking a big risk by pursuing psychology.

Also just want to second what others have said about money, though I think its silly to base things off "average" when there is almost certainly inter-individual and regional variation in where the asymptote happens. I think part of the reason why money does not relieve stress is because we have ridiculous spending/consumption habits that often translates to spending more and more money on ridiculous stuff as salary increases. This doesn't actually increase "comfort" but causes the house of cards to come tumbling down much further/harder in the event of a job loss. That's a separate discussion though

 

[781639]

I'm not saying that money equals happiness, but rather more money equals a higher quality of life. Is that an incorrect statement?

 

[erg923]

I suspect most people on this board want to earn a decent salary that allows them to live comfortably. That is different from what MamaPhD was saying about money not being priority #1. If that were the case, everyone would go into investment banking or neurosurgery. Anyone who did get stuck in something like psychology would just work 95 hours a week (more patients = more money, right?).

@vashibashi

I think this is a good point. Outside my salaried work at the VA, I do side work where I am paid per case or per hour. I did this, primarily, cause I wanted to make more money (although I am really interested in the work). If more money ="higher quality of life", I would just agree to work more/accept more cases, right?

But I don't, because...you know.

 

[WisNeuro]

I'm not saying that money equals happiness, but rather more money equals a higher quality of life. Is that an incorrect statement?

It is a statement that requires nuance, as it is not correct at all levels. As with happiness, it leads to higher quality of life, to a point, and then it is a diminishing return.

 

[781639]

I think this is a good point. Outside my salaried work at thr VA, I have side work where I am paid per case or per hour. I did this, primarily, cause I wanted to make more money (although I am really interested in the work). If more money =higher quality of life", I would just agree to work more/accept more cases, right? But I don't, because...you know.

That's interesting, I didn't know that was an option. How were you able to work at a VA as well as private practice? This sounds appealing to me.

 

[Ollie123]

I'm not saying that money equals happiness, but rather more money equals a higher quality of life. Is that an incorrect statement?

Depends on your definition of quality of life. If life quality is determined solely by square footage of your home, etc. than sure that is correct. I'd wager that for 99% of people, quality of life includes things like "I have time to do the things I enjoy" and "I like my job and find it fulfilling."

 

[WisNeuro]

That's interesting, I didn't know that was an option. How were you able to work at a VA as well as private practice? This sounds appealing to me.

All of us at the VA can do this. As long as it's done off hours, the VA has no say on what you do after you've put your 40 hours in. As long as you are abiding by ethical standards.

 

[erg923]

That's interesting, I didn't know that was an option. How were you able to work at a VA as well as private practice? This sounds appealing to me.

The VA does not restrict outside employment-one is free to whatever as long as it don't interfere with my job.

My side work is not clinical practice, though.

 

[781639]

It is a statement that requires nuance, as it is not correct at all levels. As with happiness, it leads to higher quality of life, to a point, and then it is a diminishing return.

True, and my aim isn't to become a millionaire. As long as I have enough money to live in a comfortable home (not a house), have a decent car, be able to eventually support a family and provide them with nice things (think name brand), and travel the world annually, I think it's safe to say I'd feel accomplished. If I can do that while pursuing psych, then that'd be perfect.

 

[WisNeuro]

True, and my aim isn't to become a millionaire. As long as I have enough money to live in a comfortable home (not a house), have a decent car, be able to eventually support a family and provide them with nice things (think name brand), and travel the world annually, I think it's safe to say I'd feel accomplished. If I can do that while pursuing psych, then that'd be perfect.

Well, the answer to this is, it really depends on what your definition of all of these things are. Live in a nice home in SF and have all of that on a psychologist's salary, probably not. Some other areas, mush easier.

 

[erg923]

True, and my aim isn't to become a millionaire. As long as I have enough money to live in a comfortable home (not a house), have a decent car, be able to eventually support a family and provide them with nice things (think name brand), and travel the world annually, I think it's safe to say I'd feel accomplished. If I can do that while pursuing psych, then that'd be perfect.

I think that's fine, although not sure what difference between house and home is in your mind?

Similar to the Cats in the Craddle story, I would not really want to model, for my children, a focus on materialism as the definition of "success." Because, then they will grow-up "just like me..." And then you will be lonely and sad.

 

[781639]

By the sound of it, working at a VA and doing some work on the side sounds right up my alley.

Well, the answer to this is, it really depends on what your definition of all of these things are. Live in a nice home in SF and have all of that on a psychologist's salary, probably not. Some other areas, mush easier.

I wouldn't mind living in a 1 bedroom apartment until I have kids (as long as it's not cramped), at which point a 2 bedroom will probably be more comfortable.

I think that's fine, although not sure what difference between house and home is in your mind.

By house I meant a privately owned residence with a lawn and backyard, etc. Think Everybody Loves Raymond.

 

[erg923]

By the sound of it, working at a VA and doing some work on the side sounds right up my alley.


I wouldn't mind living in a 1 bedroom apartment until I have kids (as long as it's not cramped), at which point a 2 bedroom will probably be more comfortable.


By house I meant a privately owned residence with a lawn and backyard, etc. Think Everybody Loves Raymond.

I have a 4 bedroom residence with front and back yard and garden. Is this is house or a home? lol

 

[781639]

I have a 4 bedroom residence with front and back yard and garden. Is this is house or a home? lol

Definitely a house. Which state do you work in by the way? I'd expect that with an MD

 

[erg923]

Definitely a house. Which state do you work in by the way? I'd expect that with an MD

An affordable one.

 

[781639]

An affordable one.

I'm going to guess not CA lol

 

[deleted343839]

So, basically, the med school route is safer, although not easier/harder.

Safer in terms of job security? Assuming you can do the work, probably yes. But safer in terms of job/life satisfaction? That depends on what you value.

On a side note, I've never understood how a lot of people don't regard their salary as a defining factor in choosing a career. Maybe if I understood it better it would help me in choosing mine. To me, more money equals a less stressful and more comfortable life.

Psychologists aren't monks. Most of us enter the profession expecting sufficient income to live comfortably. But comfort is a highly subjective term. I work among medical subspecialists, some of whom live in homes valued over $1M. They have plenty of "nice things." But they are not all less stressed or more comfortable than I am.

 

[781639]

Safer in terms of job security? Assuming you can do the work, probably yes. But safer in terms of job/life satisfaction? That depends on what you value.



Psychologists aren't monks. Most of us enter the profession expecting sufficient income to live comfortably. But comfort is a highly subjective term. I work among medical subspecialists, some of whom live in homes valued over $1M. They have plenty of "nice things." But they are not all less stressed or more comfortable than I am.

That sounds rather extravagant, to me extravagant isn't comfortable. But I see your point.

 

[erg923]

That sounds rather extravagant, to me extravagant isn't comfortable. But I see your point.

isn't the median price of a home similar to what you described wanting in the areas you want to live close to 1 mill?

There are homes in Palo Alto for 1 million that look as big as our dog house.

 

[781639]

isn't the median price of a home similar to what you described wanting in the areas you want to live close to 1 mill?

I'm not sure, it varies from neighborhood to neighborhood in LA, where I live. For a one to two bedroom apartments/condos, I highly doubt it, unless you're living in Beverly Hills or the like.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

When I was young, poor, and single I spent a couple of hours a day at the beach and had relatively few cares or worries. Money does come in handy, but some days I really wonder.

Same.

Things just get more complicated as you get older (and hopefully your salary goes up).