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Creation is just the belief that God created the universe. Evolution doesn't discuss the origin of life or what sparked life just as Big Bang Theory doesn't discuss what started the universe. Even if they did, they are just scientific explanations for what happened, and nothing precludes me from believing that those theories are simply the scientific explanations for how God created everything.

Young Earth Creationism != creation and I'd wager most Christians are not young earth creationists. I've only met two in my entire life, and one of them also believes that the sun revolves around the Earth.

Edit: this is why schools like Loma Linda and Loyola are more respected. They don't see an issue between creation and science. They are just two sides of the same coin.
Is it though? Not saying I believe either, but the Genesis version of how God created the universe and life seems to contradict evolution. 6 days vs. millions of years, the order that things were created/evolved in, etc.

Now that's just silly. lol
 
Oh no you're fine! I typed that in a hurry and didn't see how it sounded.

For example my personal view of creation rejects the idea of creation out of nothing, actually my whole religion does. I believe the world (and all of matter) has simply been organized and God is a being that uses eternal and scientific principles, and evolution is a part of that. The evolution of organisms has played an integral part in the development of life and our world, and I believe God is behind it. I cannot explain the details because I don't know them, but I do think God intends for us to find out through scientific advancement.

But to simply answer your question, it's easier to reconcile the two if the traditional, literal scriptural view of a creation out of nothing, 7 actual days, 6,000 years blah blah is rejected.
Thanks for explaining! Out of curiosity, on what basis do you reject the "traditional/literal scriptural view?"
 
Is it though? Not saying I believe either, but the Genesis version of how God created the universe and life seems to contradict evolution. 6 days vs. millions of years, the order that things were created/evolved in, etc.

Now that's just silly. lol

What's silly is insisting that someone who believes God created the universe must believe that Genesis is a literal account. As I said, none of the Torah scholars that are widely studied believe that, and none of the Rabbis or pastors that I've ever had believe that. In fact, it says that God did not want us to concern ourselves with the details of creation and instead to just know that He was responsible.

Not to get into too much of a debate (please feel free to pm me if you want to talk about it--I love having intelligent conversations about that stuff), but so many things in Genesis are obviously allegorical, so why do we insist that Christians must think the creation story is literal?
 
What happened? 🙁
That environment drove her crazy constant judgements and crazy rules. She liked having fun and I guess that's frowned upon in some establishments. It's also very isolating if you are not from the area.
 
That environment drove her crazy constant judgements and crazy rules. She liked having fun and I guess that's frowned upon in some establishments. It's also very isolating if you are not from the area.

Yeah, that's the kind of toxic environment that I think people automatically associate with religious schools. That's a shame. 🙁
 
What's silly is insisting that someone who believes God created the universe must believe that Genesis is a literal account. As I said, none of the Torah scholars that are widely studied believe that, and none of the Rabbis or pastors that I've ever had believe that. In fact, it says that God did not want us to concern ourselves with the details of creation and instead to just know that He was responsible.

Not to get into too much of a debate (please feel free to pm me if you want to talk about it--I love having intelligent conversations about that stuff), but so many things in Genesis are obviously allegorical, so why do we insist that Christians must think the creation story is literal?
Not insisting, just questioning.

I think it's a stretch to say that no widely studied scholars believe in a literal genesis account.

What is the "it" that claims that God tells us not to care about the details of creation?

While many things in the Old Testament are allegorical, this doesn't necessitate that the first 3 chapters be allegorical, does it?
 
Not insisting, just questioning.

I think it's a stretch to say that no widely studied scholars believe in a literal genesis account.

What is the "it" that claims that God tells us not to care about the details of creation?

While many things in the Old Testament are allegorical, this doesn't necessitate that the first 3 chapters be allegorical, does it?

It's not a stretch. We study a small number of Torah scholars. Rashi, Rambam, and Ramban are the big three. None of them believed the creation story is meant to be taken literally. I'm sure there are some Rabbis and Jews who believe it is literal. I know at least one. But I also know a doctor who is a YECer and a lawyer who believes the sun revolves around the Earth. Anecdata doesn't mean anything.

When the most widely taught and published scholars are saying Genesis is not literal, it's probably a safe bet that it isn't viewed literally by most.

I've actually met more Christians who insist on a literal interpretation than Jews, despite not having any reason to believe that other than a mistaken view that every word is supposed to be taken at face value.

Edit: forgot the rest of your post, lol. No, just because some of it is allegorical doesn't mean other parts must be, but I didn't say that and I think you know that.

Hebrews 11:3 is a good example of where it tells us to just have faith that God created the universe, but it is also in the Rashi commentaries and I believe in the Ramban as well.
 
What's silly is insisting that someone who believes God created the universe must believe that Genesis is a literal account. As I said, none of the Torah scholars that are widely studied believe that, and none of the Rabbis or pastors that I've ever had believe that. In fact, it says that God did not want us to concern ourselves with the details of creation and instead to just know that He was responsible.

Not to get into too much of a debate (please feel free to pm me if you want to talk about it--I love having intelligent conversations about that stuff), but so many things in Genesis are obviously allegorical, so why do we insist that Christians must think the creation story is literal?
Just going to jump in here and add another point of view: as a Muslim we also generally believe that the timeline of creation is not to be taken literally. What is described as "7 days" can mean anything because us humans have only (relatively) recently assigned meaning to the word "day"

Also...this thread has completely went in a different direction lol I was just curious about how strictly enforced the rules were. Wasn't even thinking of applying there, just genuinely curious
 
I was rejected at LUCOM, and looking back on it, I'm actually kind of glad I was. I enjoy the occasional alcoholic beverage and having a good time out on the town with friends. Not having the ability to do that during medical school would have made me miserable.

FYI, I had friends that went to Liberty UG. They told me that the uni actually "hires" students to go to the bars and look for LU students to report to the university. That freaked me out a bit.
 
I was rejected at LUCOM, and looking back on it, I'm actually kind of glad I was. I enjoy the occasional alcoholic beverage and having a good time out on the town with friends. Not having the ability to do that during medical school would have made me miserable.

FYI, I had friends that went to Liberty UG. They told me that the uni actually "hires" students to go to the bars and look for LU students to report to the university. That freaked me out a bit.
That's crazy! haha

I enjoy a good hefe weissbier every once in a while!
 
It's not a stretch. We study a small number of Torah scholars. Rashi, Rambam, and Ramban are the big three. None of them believed the creation story is meant to be taken literally. I'm sure there are some Rabbis and Jews who believe it is literal. I know at least one. But I also know a doctor who is a YECer and a lawyer who believes the sun revolves around the Earth. Anecdata doesn't mean anything.

When the most widely taught and published scholars are saying Genesis is not literal, it's probably a safe bet that it isn't viewed literally by most.

I've actually met more Christians who insist on a literal interpretation than Jews, despite not having any reason to believe that other than a mistaken view that every word is supposed to be taken at face value.

Edit: forgot the rest of your post, lol. No, just because some of it is allegorical doesn't mean other parts must be, but I didn't say that and I think you know that.

Hebrews 11:3 is a good example of where it tells us to just have faith that God created the universe, but it is also in the Rashi commentaries and I believe in the Ramban as well.
I'm not saying I disagree with you, but there are many scholars who would disagree with the three scholars you mentioned, and an appeal to authority doesn't necessarily prove either point to be correct. And this doctor who believes in a geocentric solar system is merely your anecdata. I've met plenty of young earthers and none of them believed that. Heck, I've never met a single person in my entire life who believed in geocentrism :laugh:. I know people who believe in a young earth and I have these conversations with them. I enjoy playing devils advocate now and again 🙂

Is there evidence to prove that "most scholars" do not accept a literal view of Genesis? Again, just asking.

Why is such a view "mistaken?" Which words/verses in Genesis chapters 1-3 indicate a non-literal translation?

"By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible." Which part of this verse indicates a non-literal interpretation?

I'm really enjoying this discussion!
 
It's not a stretch. We study a small number of Torah scholars.
Interestingly enough I thought of another notable rabbi ---David J. Wolpe(and his book "Why Faith Matters") great way of at least trying to explain the importance of faith to those of us who come from different religious backgrounds. As a conservative rabbi(David J. Wolpe) they are taught biblical criticism(so yes it's possible to criticize parts of the bible/torah while having faith) in rabbinical school and this form of thought can be found in many christian sects and most christian medical schools(I don't know LUCOMs stance on scripture so I can't comment on that but christian MD schools seem fine with this stance)
 
I'm not saying I disagree with you, but there are many scholars who would disagree with the three scholars you mentioned, and an appeal to authority doesn't necessarily prove either point to be correct.

There aren't many Torah scholars who disagree with them. These aren't just some guys who studied a lot of Torah. In Orthodox Judaism, those three are like the three most important scholars of the Torah--like so much so that Rashi's commentary accompanies every page of the Talmud and is studied weekly at most synagogues and the other two are used as supporting scholars or to clarify points where Rashi doesn't go into much detail.

Maybe it's because I spent years as an Orthodox Jew and just take this knowledge for granted, but to say that there are scholars who disagree with Rashi is almost laughable.

And this doctor who believes in a geocentric solar system is merely your anecdata. I've met plenty of young earthers and none of them believed that. Heck, I've never met a single person in my entire life who believed in geocentrism :laugh:. I know people who believe in a young earth and I have these conversations with them. I enjoy playing devils advocate now and again 🙂

Um, yes. That was kind of my point, lol. I even used the term anecdata. My point was that if a few people take it literally, that does not mean that most do. It doesn't mean anything. It means those people take it literally. When the majority of Jews and Christians view it as allegory and the most respected and deferred to Torah scholars take it as allegory, that actually means something.

Is there evidence to prove that "most scholars" do not accept a literal view of Genesis? Again, just asking.

I don't want to speak about "most Christian scholars" because I don't know. For the Judaism side, yes. Most Torah scholars take it as allegory. I know of only one big rabbi who took it literally and never actually met him, so I'm not sure how literally he took it. I do know that he was kind of considered a loon by the rest of the Orthodox community.

Why is such a view "mistaken?" Which words/verses in Genesis chapters 1-3 indicate a non-literal translation?

I'll point you to Rashi's commentary on Beresheit 1:1 (Gen. 1:1). He says that the Torah should have never even contained the book of Genesis, as it is technically supposed to be a book of laws. However, God chose to include a creation story so that:

"
hould the nations of the world say to Israel, 'You are robbers, for you have taken by force the lands of the Seven Nations,' they [Israel] will say to them: 'All the earth belongs to G-d. He created it and gave it to whomever He saw fit. It was His will to give it to them and it was His will to take it from them and give it to us.'"

He then goes on to say:

"At the beginning of the creation of heaven and earth, when the world was unformed and desolate, G-d said, 'Let there be light.' This verse does not intend to teach the sequence of creation -- that these were [created] first. For if that was the intention, it should have written, 'At first G-d created the heavens,' etc."

He then discusses how nowhere in the Torah does a literal sequence appear with the phrasing used in Gen. 1:1, indicating that we aren't supposed to read it as a literal sequence of events. He writes about it a few more times.

You can find the same interpretation in both Ramban and Ramban, though Ramban goes into the most depth, discussing why the account in Gen. is simply a glossing over because the early Israelites had no need for a deeper understanding. He goes into a LOT of detail about why the specific letters and words in these verses indicate this. It's pretty interesting, but I haven't been able to find an online version in English to link unfortunately.

"By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible." Which part of this verse indicates a non-literal interpretation?

I'm really enjoying this discussion!

This is a throwback to what Rashi is saying. We understand by our faith that God created the universe. We don't need to know how to believe this, hence the simplistic story in Genesis.

Doesn't mean we can't investigate now that we're ready to delve into those mysteries, but it does mean that we can announce our faith without that deeper knowledge.

Edit: I dunno why it's doing this weird slash through thing. I'm on my phone so I can't fix it.
 
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Interestingly enough I thought of another notable rabbi ---David J. Wolpe(and his book "Why Faith Matters") great way of at least trying to explain the importance of faith to those of us who come from different religious backgrounds. As a conservative rabbi(David J. Wolpe) they are taught biblical criticism(so yes it's possible to criticize parts of the bible/torah while having faith) in rabbinical school and this form of thought can be found in many christian sects and most christian medical schools(I don't know LUCOMs stance on scripture so I can't comment on that but christian MD schools seem fine with this stance)

There are a lot of great Rabbis, and I think Biblical criticism is a great way to actually strengthen knowledge and faith. When I was Orthodox, I spent a few hours three days a week going very deep into the text and trying to understand the seeming contradictions, historicity, and interpretations. It's great, and the Torah actually compels us to do this regularly. I try to do it now with the New Testament as well.
 
There aren't many Torah scholars who disagree with them. These aren't just some guys who studied a lot of Torah. In Orthodox Judaism, those three are like the three most important scholars of the Torah--like so much so that Rashi's commentary accompanies every page of the Talmud and is studied weekly at most synagogues and the other two are used as supporting scholars or to clarify points where Rashi doesn't go into much detail.

Maybe it's because I spent years as an Orthodox Jew and just take this knowledge for granted, but to say that there are scholars who disagree with Rashi is almost laughable.



Um, yes. That was kind of my point, lol. I even used the term anecdata. My point was that if a few people take it literally, that does not mean that most do. It doesn't mean anything. It means those people take it literally. When the majority of Jews and Christians view it as allegory and the most respected and deferred to Torah scholars take it as allegory, that actually means something.



I don't want to speak about "most Christian scholars" because I don't know. For the Judaism side, yes. Most Torah scholars take it as allegory. I know of only one big rabbi who took it literally and never actually met him, so I'm not sure how literally he took it. I do know that he was kind of considered a loon by the rest of the Orthodox community.



I'll point you to Rashi's commentary on Beresheit 1:1 (Gen. 1:1). He says that the Torah should have never even contained the book of Genesis, as it is technically supposed to be a book of laws. However, God chose to include a creation story so that:

"
hould the nations of the world say to Israel, 'You are robbers, for you have taken by force the lands of the Seven Nations,' they [Israel] will say to them: 'All the earth belongs to G-d. He created it and gave it to whomever He saw fit. It was His will to give it to them and it was His will to take it from them and give it to us.'"

He then goes on to say:

"At the beginning of the creation of heaven and earth, when the world was unformed and desolate, G-d said, 'Let there be light.' This verse does not intend to teach the sequence of creation -- that these were [created] first. For if that was the intention, it should have written, 'At first G-d created the heavens,' etc."

He then discusses how nowhere in the Torah does a literal sequence appear with the phrasing used in Gen. 1:1, indicating that we aren't supposed to read it as a literal sequence of events. He writes about it a few more times.

You can find the same interpretation in both Ramban and Ramban, though Ramban goes into the most depth, discussing why the account in Gen. is simply a glossing over because the early Israelites had no need for a deeper understanding. He goes into a LOT of detail about why the specific letters and words in these verses indicate this. It's pretty interesting, but I haven't been able to find an online version in English to link unfortunately.



This is a throwback to what Rashi is saying. We understand by our faith that God created the universe. We don't need to know how to believe this, hence the simplistic story in Genesis.

Doesn't mean we can't investigate now that we're ready to delve into those mysteries, but it does mean that we can announce our faith without that deeper knowledge.

Edit: I dunno why it's doing this weird slash through thing. I'm on my phone so I can't fix it.

I appreciate the specific example from Rashi, I'll definitely look into it.
 
There aren't many Torah scholars who disagree with them. These aren't just some guys who studied a lot of Torah. In Orthodox Judaism, those three are like the three most important scholars of the Torah--like so much so that Rashi's commentary accompanies every page of the Talmud and is studied weekly at most synagogues and the other two are used as supporting scholars or to clarify points where Rashi doesn't go into much detail.

Maybe it's because I spent years as an Orthodox Jew and just take this knowledge for granted, but to say that there are scholars who disagree with Rashi is almost laughable.



Um, yes. That was kind of my point, lol. I even used the term anecdata. My point was that if a few people take it literally, that does not mean that most do. It doesn't mean anything. It means those people take it literally. When the majority of Jews and Christians view it as allegory and the most respected and deferred to Torah scholars take it as allegory, that actually means something.



I don't want to speak about "most Christian scholars" because I don't know. For the Judaism side, yes. Most Torah scholars take it as allegory. I know of only one big rabbi who took it literally and never actually met him, so I'm not sure how literally he took it. I do know that he was kind of considered a loon by the rest of the Orthodox community.



I'll point you to Rashi's commentary on Beresheit 1:1 (Gen. 1:1). He says that the Torah should have never even contained the book of Genesis, as it is technically supposed to be a book of laws. However, God chose to include a creation story so that:

"
hould the nations of the world say to Israel, 'You are robbers, for you have taken by force the lands of the Seven Nations,' they [Israel] will say to them: 'All the earth belongs to G-d. He created it and gave it to whomever He saw fit. It was His will to give it to them and it was His will to take it from them and give it to us.'"

He then goes on to say:

"At the beginning of the creation of heaven and earth, when the world was unformed and desolate, G-d said, 'Let there be light.' This verse does not intend to teach the sequence of creation -- that these were [created] first. For if that was the intention, it should have written, 'At first G-d created the heavens,' etc."

He then discusses how nowhere in the Torah does a literal sequence appear with the phrasing used in Gen. 1:1, indicating that we aren't supposed to read it as a literal sequence of events. He writes about it a few more times.

You can find the same interpretation in both Ramban and Ramban, though Ramban goes into the most depth, discussing why the account in Gen. is simply a glossing over because the early Israelites had no need for a deeper understanding. He goes into a LOT of detail about why the specific letters and words in these verses indicate this. It's pretty interesting, but I haven't been able to find an online version in English to link unfortunately.



This is a throwback to what Rashi is saying. We understand by our faith that God created the universe. We don't need to know how to believe this, hence the simplistic story in Genesis.

Doesn't mean we can't investigate now that we're ready to delve into those mysteries, but it does mean that we can announce our faith without that deeper knowledge.

Edit: I dunno why it's doing this weird slash through thing. I'm on my phone so I can't fix it.
Just curious, is there evidence that most Jews and Christians view the Genesis account as allegory?
 
Just curious, is there evidence that most Jews and Christians view the Genesis account as allegory?

I haven't talked to every single Jew. However, I think that as all of the literature and prominent rabbis view it as allegory, that they teach it that way in seminaries in Israel, and that historically it was viewed that way as evidenced by the writings we have are pretty good indicators that the majority opinion is that at least the creation story is allegorical. Whether the rest of it is viewed that way across the board is another story. The same scholars who viewed the creation story as allegory in the 12th and 13th centuries also viewed the story of Abraham as a factual account. Once you get past the seven days of creation (on the seventh day, He created rest!), it seems like opinions start to differ a bit with many taking it as a factual account that sometimes throws some allegory and metaphor in there.

As for Christians, I'm not sure. I have not met many Christians that view it literally (though I have argued with a few), but I have seen many many Christian "scholars" who claim that any interpretation other than a literal interpretation is heresy, so take that as you will. None of my pastors have taken it literally, but I tend to attend more progressive churches.
 
I haven't talked to every single Jew. However, I think that as all of the literature and prominent rabbis view it as allegory, that they teach it that way in seminaries in Israel, and that historically it was viewed that way as evidenced by the writings we have are pretty good indicators that the majority opinion is that at least the creation story is allegorical. Whether the rest of it is viewed that way across the board is another story. The same scholars who viewed the creation story as allegory in the 12th and 13th centuries also viewed the story of Abraham as a factual account. Once you get past the seven days of creation (on the seventh day, He created rest!), it seems like opinions start to differ a bit with many taking it as a factual account that sometimes throws some allegory and metaphor in there.

As for Christians, I'm not sure. I have not met many Christians that view it literally (though I have argued with a few), but I have seen many many Christian "scholars" who claim that any interpretation other than a literal interpretation is heresy, so take that as you will. None of my pastors have taken it literally, but I tend to attend more progressive churches.
Ahh, I understand. I'm not too familiar with mainstream Jewish views on the subject, thanks.
 
Additionaly, there's somewhat of a divide between protestants and Catholics, at least in America.

Most of the literalists I've met were Catholic. Most of the people I've met who believe in the Devil is a fallen angel who rules Hell and wants to overthrow Heaven were Catholic too lol.
 
Most of the literalists I've met were Catholic. Most of the people I've met who believe in the Devil is a fallen angel who rules Hell and wants to overthrow Heaven were Catholic too lol.
I've met many YECers in the Protestant community. If we're talking about an institution like LUCOM, even more so I'd think.
 
Mainstream Protestants are also fine with evolution. It's the evangelicals and Southern Baptists who make the biggest stink about literalism, to the point of corrupting public education and trying to break the wall between Church and State.

You know, the same people who voted for a lying, adulterous, prideful, gluttonous guy who went broke running gambling emporiums?



Additionaly, there's somewhat of a divide between protestants and Catholics, at least in America.
 
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Mainstream Protestants are also fine with evolution. It's the evangelicals and Southern Baptists who make the biggest stink about literalism, to the point of corrupting public education and trying to break the wall between Church and State.

You know, the same people who voted for a lying, adulterous, prideful, gluttonous guy who made his fortunate running gambling emporiums?
Aaaaaaaaand we're back to Trump 😉

:corny:
 
Mainstream Protestants are also fine with evolution. It's the evangelicals and Southern Baptists who make the biggest stink about literalism, to the point of corrupting public education and trying to break the wall between Church and State.

You know, the same people who voted for a lying, adulterous, prideful, gluttonous guy who made his fortunate running gambling emporiums?

Edit: your constant posts about Trump and his followers distract from the thread and are off topic.
 
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Fair enough! Regardless of denomination, YECers are definitely loopy.
I mean, I'm not sure if loopy is a fair characterization haha. If arguing with an anti-vaxxer, I certainly wouldn't start by insulting them (although they definitely deserve it haha!)
 
I mean, I'm not sure if loopy is a fair characterization haha. If arguing with an anti-vaxxer, I certainly wouldn't start by insulting them (although they definitely deserve it haha!)

Well, I don't call them crazy to their face unless they start acting crazy and yelling insults lol.
 
Random question, but do Southern Baptists have a gripe with Catholics?
 
Random question, but do Southern Baptists have a gripe with Catholics?
Big time. I thought the Lutherans and Catholics didn't get along until I met a baptist..

All nice people though, don't get me wrong. Just at each other's throats haha
 
Big time. I thought the Lutherans and Catholics didn't get along until I met a baptist..

All nice people though, don't get me wrong. Just at each other's throats haha

Well, dammit. I probably shouldn't have mentioned that I was a Catholic during my interview then 😳. I have a feeling that that may have been the dagger, despite their "open minded-ness to other beliefs."

Oh well.
 
Well, dammit. I probably shouldn't have mentioned that I was a Catholic during my interview then 😳. I have a feeling that that may have been the dagger, despite their "open minded-ness to other beliefs."
Sorry to hear that 🙁
 
Well, dammit. I probably shouldn't have mentioned that I was a Catholic during my interview then 😳. I have a feeling that that may have been the dagger, despite their "open minded-ness to other beliefs."

Oh well.

Shouldn't hurt you. I think saying that they are all at each other's throats is a gross exaggeration. My last church was Southern Baptist and while we disagreed with the Catholics on a lot, we wouldn't have turned them away or been rude to them or anything. I think all but the extreme of each are just normal people.
 
Shouldn't hurt you. I think saying that they are all at each other's throats is a gross exaggeration. My last church was Southern Baptist and while we disagreed with the Catholics on a lot, we wouldn't have turned them away or been rude to them or anything. I think all but the extreme of each are just normal people.
In general, yes. I'm mainly referring to the baptists I've met who said Catholics "aren't Christian" or "Catholics aren't going to heaven." Sad to hear that kind of talk.
 
In general, yes. I'm mainly referring to the baptists I've met who said Catholics "aren't Christian" or "Catholics aren't going to heaven." Sad to hear that kind of talk.

Well to be honest, I consider Catholics to be a bit outside of Christianity. A lot of their beliefs are completely apocryphal and not scripture based (or in opposition to scripture). But to say they aren't going to Heaven because they disagree with you on some things is ridiculous.
 
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