New to the DO thread

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Tyrone.

Y'all got any more of them acceptance letters?
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So, I'm sure this is a common thing, as most go through MD schools. I'm still 2 years out from applying time but I would like to know more about DO schools; things like schools to look into and schools to stay away from. I figured there are enough students, experiences and reputations that people could share with me. This way, I can have a better understanding of these different programs. Things I should consider or that are different compared to the MD route would be appreciated too! I should mention I'll be around 31 when applying, and I live in North Carolina, anticipate a 3.5 GPA as long as things go as planned. Happy Holidays y'all!

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Well before you cross this bridge you need to answer for yourself one of the most important questions....which you will be asked at almost every DO school...

Why DO?

You dont have to answer it here, but moreso for yourself...and please dont only use the word “hollistic”
 
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Need more specific questions.
Well, I guess the most specific question I have is which schools should I really consider and which I should stay away from? I've heard there are some sketchy DO schools that shouldn't be attended. I don't really know which, or how much weight there is to it but that's what I've heard. And I do need to think of a good way to explain why I want to go DO besides saying "holistic" even though that is a part of it, to be honest.
 
Well, I guess the most specific question I have is which schools should I really consider and which I should stay away from? I've heard there are some sketchy DO schools that shouldn't be attended. I don't really know which, or how much weight there is to it but that's what I've heard. And I do need to think of a good way to explain why I want to go DO besides saying "holistic" even though that is a part of it, to be honest.

It depends on a lot of factors. The DO schools can be tiered to some extent.

State supported schools >>>>>>> newer schools, with everything else in between.
 
"I can't recommend Touro-NY, or LUCOM, for different reasons"
 
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I live in NC so the DO schools near me are Campbell and VCOM. Not sure if they're state .supported or private.
 
Do some digging on the AACOM website. You'll learn quite a few things there.

There are only 6 public institutions, and there are 28 private institutions (for a total of 34 D.O. schools).

The "best" ones are those public institutions, followed by the original 5, followed by everything else. Try to avoid the newer D.O. schools; they are near the bottom of "everything else."
 
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Do some digging on the AACOM website. You'll learn quite a few things there.

There are only 6 public institutions, and there are 28 private institutions (for a total of 34 D.O. schools).

The "best" ones are those public institutions, followed by the original 5, followed by everything else. Try to avoid the newer D.O. schools; they are near the bottom of "everything else."
I will do my research on that, then! Thank!
 
So, what are the chances of getting into OSU-COM if you're OOS? Or any public schools, for that matter?
 
I had a feeling. With that being said, what is a list that most students not living in those states go by, without dwelling into the realm of questionable DO schools?
Honestly while early research is good, if you're still 2 years out from applying a lot can happen. I would focus on improving your application as much as you can in that time, as it will make life easier when application time comes. In addition once you get closer you can use the average stats of incoming students from any school you're interested in to see where you stack up. It makes it a lot easier to determine what reaches are and what are realistic goal schools.

In terms of location, sure it helps to go to school where you eventually want to practice in terms of possible networking, but you can set up rotations in your later medical school years all over the country. I have a friend who's been in 5 different states over the course of the last semester doing audition rotations. So in my opinion, location matters less as overall fit with the school because you can go pretty much wherever you want after medical school.
 
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OP are you urm?

Get a lot of A's in your post-bac, bring your GPAs to a 3.5 and land a solid Mcat score. If you can do the above, that should be enough reinvention for adcoms to take a chance on you. Easier said than done but best of luck.
 
I live in NC so the DO schools near me are Campbell and VCOM. Not sure if they're state .supported or private.

I'll be attending VCOM-Carolinas next year. It is a private institution. This particular campus has been open since 2011 I believe so it is considered a newer school. There is an even newer campus at Auburn which opened in 2015. This is the only school I applied to, so I don't have much insight into other schools, but if you have any questions about VCOM, I can do my best to answer them. For reference, my sGPA was 3.4ish, cGPA 3.67, MCAT 502.
 
Yeah- OP if you are URM and have a 3.5 and decent MCAT my guess it that MD schools will beg for you.

If you are not URM, considering DO schools is a reasonable thing to do with a 3.5, particularly if you have a <508+ MCAT. Even if you have a higher MCAT and don't want to wait a year it would make sense to apply both MD and DO.

Also, be sure to think about if you are okay with being a DO. Some people are not. These people are commonly advised to re-apply MD if they don't get in the first time, often taking a gap year to strengthen their GPAs (usually through an SMP, sometimes a do-it-yourself (DIY) postbacc (this is just taking undergraduate, not graduate level courses after you have obtained a bachelor's degree) or retaking the MCAT. An extra year is also commonly used to boost ECs and write better essays for the upcoming cycle.

As for what it means to be a DO: osteopathic programs in general have slightly to significantly lower matriculation averages.
Most MD programs have 3.7+ GPAs with higher MCAT averages (I think it is often around 508+, but I haven't looked at the Medical School Admissions Requirements catalog (MSAR) recently). DO schools average closer to 3.5-3.6, with many newer programs at lower GPA averages. They also accept students with MCATs averaging in the ~55-70%th percentiles most of the time.​

DO programs are accredited by a different body (COCA) than MD schools, which ends up meaning they have different standards.
This has manifested in a few ways. Clinical rotations at DO schools can be more hit-or-miss than MD schools. Not always, but they can be. Clinical rotations are also going to have a tendency towards being more preceptor-based (teaching physician without a team of residents or fellows) rotations instead of rotations with the classical hierarchy of medicine (med students under residents under practicing physicians, maybe with fellows around). This apparently has implications for residency placement because residency program directors (PDs) like selecting students who already understand how the hierarchy of medicine works.

DO programs teach you Osteopathic Manipulative Medicine (OMM) in addition to all the other basic sciences that you need to learn in the first 2 years of pre clinical training. Some of this is less evidence-based and many consider it more of a dogmatic practice with basis in early practice of osteopathic medicine. I will say that from my research there is some reasonable evidence to support OMM in some contexts. Some forms of OMM do not have a proper evidential basis for their practice. I'm personally looking forward to learning it because it will enable me to give my partner relief from chronic pains. In the end, you go through the training and only have to practice what you are comfortable practicing.

Also, DO programs have lower requirements for research. There is generally less academic research conducted at DO schools. You usually have to put in effort to seek out opportunities. Some specialties like to accept students that have done research during medical school, so this places DOs at a disadvantage for those specialties.

Additionally, DO programs overall send more students into primary care specialties (family medicine, internal medicine, pediatrics, and OB/GYN. Psych, and EM can sometimes be included in this umbrella). This fact may not be secondary to the different body that accredits DO schools, but it is a real tendency. if you know you want a competitive specialty, DO programs have more of an uphill battle to get there.​

DOs also face some stigma in academic medicine particularly. It is more difficult (sometimes much more difficult or impossible at upper tiers), but not impossible, for a DO to obtain residencies in competitive academic residencies. if you want to go into academic medicine, DO will close some doors for you. Some programs are considered completely closed to DOs because they have never accepted one.

DOs face some stigma generally, from a subset of the population. I have heard people mention that MD>DO because of lower matriculant stats or criticism of OMM. You will have to answer the question "what is a DO?" to friends, family, and patients throughout your career. Most people do not care at all. Honestly, the vast majority of people shouldn't care.

What DO does get you is an American physician license and a high-quality medical education. My feeling is that you get to practice as a physician with a DO degree and that makes up for any downsides that you may or may not believe exists in osteopathic medical school.

Newer schools will have lower matriculant statistics, and will generally be unproven in their ability to produce physicians that obtained residencies. These tend to be less preferable than established schools. newer programs include: ACOM, ARCOM, BCOM, NYIT-AR, PCOM-GA, RVU-UT, ICOM (will probably be around by the time you apply). With a GPA of 3.5, you should probably shoot for the public DO schools and established programs. Though in the case of PCOM-GA and RVU-UT, both those programs have established high-quality campuses already producing physicians, so are less risky.
 
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So, what are the chances of getting into OSU-COM if you're OOS? Or any public schools, for that matter?
I got an interview invite there as OOS, but you definitely couldn't count on getting in. If you were super set on a specific School doing really well on the MCAT helps and then especially targeting your activities and extracurriculars towards things that would fill their mission statement specifically. But definitely not being set on one school, not saying that you are by any means.
 
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I got an interview invite there as OOS, but you definitely couldn't count on getting in. If you were super set on a specific School doing really well on the MCAT helps and then especially targeting your activities and extracurriculars towards things that would fill their mission statement specifically. But definitely not being set on one school, not saying that you are by any means.
Also reaching out the school well before the application cycle starts and showing face or being involved somehow could help at that school. Take a tour at the school, ask for information. But echo the sentiment that you just cannot be too set on one school because the application cycle can be a crapshoot.

The only school I toured/got involved with before the cycle and was a reach for me/my stats... I received a II at.

It's not anecdotal evidence...its artisanal data ;)
 
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Also reaching out the school well before the application cycle starts and showing face or being involved somehow could help at that school. Take a tour at the school, ask for information. But echo the sentiment that you just cannot be too set on one school because the application cycle can be a crapshoot.

The only school I toured/got involved with before the cycle and was a reach for me/my stats... I received a II at.

It's not anecdotal evidence...its artisanal data ;)
Lol love the phrasing. And you make great points. Even though the I'm going to possibly the easiest School to get in to out of all the interviews I got, I did meet with an admissions counselor for the Rocky Vista Utah campus twice before the application cycle started, which I think showed interest and helped me know exactly what they would want.
 
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Well, I guess the most specific question I have is which schools should I really consider and which I should stay away from? I've heard there are some sketchy DO schools that shouldn't be attended. I don't really know which, or how much weight there is to it but that's what I've heard. And I do need to think of a good way to explain why I want to go DO besides saying "holistic" even though that is a part of it, to be honest.
Shadow both DOs and MDs to see if there are discernible differences in how they approach the practice of Medicine.

I have a low opinion of LUCOM and Touro-NY. Do a search as to why.
New DO schools will have issues with getting their act together
I look down upon schools with mandatory lecture attendance. Go into looking at these with eyes open
Avoid schools where most of their clinical rotations are preceptor based. This is the great weakness of Osteopathic education.
Be aware that the odds will be that you'll end up in Primary Care. Note that this does NOT mean you have to end up in Primary Care.
 
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Avoid schools where most of their clinical rotations are preceptor based. This is the great weakness of Osteopathic education.

Can someone elaborate what exactly this means?
 
Can someone elaborate what exactly this means?
My understanding is this means the clinical rotations are with physicians that don't have residents and/or fellows associated with them. I think the broader implication is that lots of preceptor based rotations occur in non-academic, community settings where you might also see less pathology or encounter fewer experts in their fields, or encounter physicians that are less interested in teaching, or don't know how to teach.

I would love someone who knows more to correct any errors in the above.
 
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I greatly appreciate all of this advice! I did research on AACOM last night to learn more about DOs to see if it interests me and it made me even more interested and excited to learn and possibly integrate OMM into my practice. I was a mechanic, drummer and many under things that have involved using my hands. It's not suggestive, but I am particularly good with my hands and enjoy working with them. I also have absolutely no problem touching my patient in a more intimate tone than an MD. I want to heal. Prostate exams aren't exactly less awkward than put your hands on someone in helping pop or relieve pain in some part of the body, so that totally sounds like something I'd be interested in. Also, I actually want to go in either FM, EM, or IM. Not just because they are shorter, but they all appeal to me and for different reasons and experiences I have had. I'm not concerned about pay as much as being the frontline of defense for taking care of my patients. I am looking on the "find a DO near you" website and hopefully some will give me the opportunity to shadow. Thanks again! I have a friend that's a FM resident near me, and she went to VCOM in VA but we're not extremely close. We almost dated and things got weird, so I would love to ask to shadow her; just don't think it would end well ha.
 
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Shadow both DOs and MDs to see if there are discernible differences in how they approach the practice of Medicine.

I have a low opinion of LUCOM and Touro-NY. Do a search as to why.
New DO schools will have issues with getting their act together
I look down upon schools with mandatory lecture attendance. Go into looking at these with eyes open
Avoid schools where most of their clinical rotations are preceptor based. This is the great weakness of Osteopathic education.
Be aware that the odds will be that you'll end up in Primary Care. Note that this does NOT mean you have to end up in Primary Care.
Besides Touro-NY and LUCOM, do you have any schools you'd recommend or more schools to shy away from?
 
It's glorified shadowing. You want a hospital based rotation where you actually learn to do procedures, not merely watch people do them.
How can one find out about the school before getting in if their rotations are preceptor based?
 
It's glorified shadowing. You want a hospital based rotation where you actually learn to do procedures, not merely watch people do them.

Do you know which schools do this?
 
I have a high opinion of:

AZCOM
CCOM
DMU
KCU
MSUCOM
MUCOM
Nova
NYITCOM
OH-COM
PCOM
TCOM
Touro-CA
TUNCOM
VCOM
UNECOM
Western (both)
WVSOM
Thanks for the list! Which of those are the state schools? MSU is the only one that I'm aware of. Also, do you feel all VCOM branches are held the same high standard or are you referring to the main campus?
 
Do you know which schools do this?
How can one find out about the school before getting in if their rotations are preceptor based?

Most school state on their websites what kind of rotations they do. They don't shy away from saying they have preceptor based rotations.

I recommend starting a spreadsheet for school-related info, stratified by school. Visit each website/SDN school specific threads. You will be glad you had it come application time.
 
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Thanks for the list! Which of those are the state schools? MSU is the only one that I'm aware of. Also, do you feel all VCOM branches are held the same high standard or are you referring to the main campus?
MSU, WVSOM, TCOM, and OHCOM.

For VCOM, I'm referring to the VA school in particular, if only because one of their grads was a faculty colleague of mine. Sharp guy.
 
It's glorified shadowing. You want a hospital based rotation where you actually learn to do procedures, not merely watch people do them.
You say this, but a lot of the schools you think highly of (KCU, DMU, for example) say that they mostly do preceptor-based rotations. What are your thoughts on these "better" schools that still have a lot of preceptor-based training?
 
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You say this, but a lot of the schools you think highly of (KCU, DMU, for example) say that they mostly do preceptor-based rotations. What are your thoughts on these "better" schools that still have a lot of preceptor-based training?
I'll leave that for Applicants to decide. I've met grads of these schools, some have become faculty colleagues of mine; they're pretty sharp. And even though it's hard to interpret match lists, some of the match lists are quite decent, according to people in the know.
 
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Shadow both DOs and MDs to see if there are discernible differences in how they approach the practice of Medicine.

I have a low opinion of LUCOM and Touro-NY. Do a search as to why.
New DO schools will have issues with getting their act together
I look down upon schools with mandatory lecture attendance. Go into looking at these with eyes open
Avoid schools where most of their clinical rotations are preceptor based. This is the great weakness of Osteopathic education.
Be aware that the odds will be that you'll end up in Primary Care. Note that this does NOT mean you have to end up in Primary Care.

Edit: Nevermind. Found data.

Comparatively, what are the odds of ending up in internal medicine in a specialty? I'm no good with kids so no thanks to family medicine.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Charting-Outcomes-US-Osteopathic-2016.pdf
 
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So, what are the chances of getting into OSU-COM if you're OOS? Or any public schools, for that matter?

OOS student at OSU here. It’s difficult, you need to generally have stats above their average by a good bit (MCAT is the real attention getter), and most importantly you need to show them why you want to come here and how you got into their mission. I would assume the other state schools are this way.

I had a feeling. With that being said, what is a list that most students not living in those states go by, without dwelling into the realm of questionable DO schools?

Honestly I would still apply to most of the state schools anyway (except Ohio, they are great but require you to practice in Ohio when you are done with residency for 5 years). After that you want the older schools, and I see that Goro has left you a nice list. I would start there. Even some of the newer schools will be solid by the time you apply, I’m thinking of Campbell and ACOM. Campbell is actually already impressing me for how new they are.

Can someone elaborate what exactly this means?

My understanding is this means the clinical rotations are with physicians that don't have residents and/or fellows associated with them. I think the broader implication is that lots of preceptor based rotations occur in non-academic, community settings where you might also see less pathology or encounter fewer experts in their fields, or encounter physicians that are less interested in teaching, or don't know how to teach.

I would love someone who knows more to correct any errors in the above.

Ok so I’ll attempt to make this somewhat brief. Preceptor based rotations are where you are assigned to a single physician and follow them around and they teach you etc. It can be shadowing like Goro mentions but, at least at my school, the preceptors really do like to teach and they generally do a good job. These rotations can take place in outpatient settings or in large major community hospitals, it just depends on the practice set up of your preceptor. It really isn’t the worst way to do rotations and it can allow for more opportunity for hands on medical learning. There are two issues with them:

1. They can be highly variable. Some people have absolutely fantastic preceptor rotations where they learn loads but there can also be preceptors who don’t really like having students and you basically just shadow. Now I believe this type to be in the minority but even the fact that it still happens allows PDs to wonder about how good your clinical experience really was.

2. This is the biggest issue. While learning how to first assist in surgery is really cool, and so is doing lots of procedures, it really isn’t the point of your clinical rotations. You have rotations to help you to start thinking like an intern, and how to function like one.

That brings us to wards based rotations. Ward based rotations are where you are assigned to a resident team and you function as a member of the team. You learn how to round on patients, present them to the attending, and you get to be immersed in the lifestyle of a resident. This is the overall purpose of rotations, to prepare you to be a good intern.

Now, in my opinion the best rotation set up would be a mix of both. Some fields, like surgery or IM, absolutely should be in a wards setting. Others like peds, psych or FM, should have some outpatient preceptorship component because that is where the large majority of those fields operate.

Hopefully I explained it well. The truth is that at almost all DO schools you will probably have more preceptor based rotations than ward based unless you go to one of the select few schools with tons of nearby home residencies like OSU, MSU, or Rowan.

It's glorified shadowing. You want a hospital based rotation where you actually learn to do procedures, not merely watch people do them.

Actually the people who do the rural preceptor based rotations do far more procedures and hands on work than the ones who rotate with residents generally. Like a lot more honestly.

How can one find out about the school before getting in if their rotations are preceptor based?



Do you know which schools do this?

I’ll just make it easy on you, all DO schools will have a majority of preceptor based rotations and COCA ow has requirements that at least one of your core rotations bust be in conjunction with a residency program. It’s just one of the sacrifices you make going to a DO school. It doesn’t necessarily mean you will have bad rotations.

Some schools are notorious for bad rotations, namely LMU, KYCOM, WCUCOM and I would bet that Liberty will have crap rotations as well.
 
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I thank my young colleague for his thorough summary, and it reminded me of one more thing that is a problem with DO clinical education. Preceptors seem to not know how to write a decent evaluation for your MSPEs. Several PDs have mentioned this in different posts on SDN. I was recently shown a sample MSPE form from a "Really Top School, and it was surprisingly less than informative. I suppose the mindset is "Joe Smith trained at Really Top Hospital, and that should be all you need to know" was good enough. Go figure. But the big takeaway is that there is alack of uniformity in DO evaluations, and PDs are troubled by this.

One attending posted some time ago about why they his/her program is hesitant to take DOs, and I sure wish I could find that post...I would definitely show it to my clinical Deans. I know the poster wasn't the wise aProgram Director. Maybe @Perrotfish???


OOS student at OSU here. It’s difficult, you need to generally have stats above their average by a good bit (MCAT is the real attention getter), and most importantly you need to show them why you want to come here and how you got into their mission. I would assume the other state schools are this way.


Honestly I would still apply to most of the state schools anyway (except Ohio, they are great but require you to practice in Ohio when you are done with residency for 5 years). After that you want the older schools, and I see that Goro has left you a nice list. I would start there. Even some of the newer schools will be solid by the time you apply, I’m thinking of Campbell and ACOM. Campbell is actually already impressing me for how new they are.

Ok so I’ll attempt to make this somewhat brief. Preceptor based rotations are where you are assigned to a single physician and follow them around and they teach you etc. It can be shadowing like Goro mentions but, at least at my school, the preceptors really do like to teach and they generally do a good job. These rotations can take place in outpatient settings or in large major community hospitals, it just depends on the practice set up of your preceptor. It really isn’t the worst way to do rotations and it can allow for more opportunity for hands on medical learning. There are two issues with them:

1. They can be highly variable. Some people have absolutely fantastic preceptor rotations where they learn loads but there can also be preceptors who don’t really like having students and you basically just shadow. Now I believe this type to be in the minority but even the fact that it still happens allows PDs to wonder about how good your clinical experience really was.

2. This is the biggest issue. While learning how to first assist in surgery is really cool, and so is doing lots of procedures, it really isn’t the point of your clinical rotations. You have rotations to help you to start thinking like an intern, and how to function like one.

That brings us to wards based rotations. Ward based rotations are where you are assigned to a resident team and you function as a member of the team. You learn how to round on patients, present them to the attending, and you get to be immersed in the lifestyle of a resident. This is the overall purpose of rotations, to prepare you to be a good intern.

Now, in my opinion the best rotation set up would be a mix of both. Some fields, like surgery or IM, absolutely should be in a wards setting. Others like peds, psych or FM, should have some outpatient preceptorship component because that is where the large majority of those fields operate.

Hopefully I explained it well. The truth is that at almost all DO schools you will probably have more preceptor based rotations than ward based unless you go to one of the select few schools with tons of nearby home residencies like OSU, MSU, or Rowan.

Actually the people who do the rural preceptor based rotations do far more procedures and hands on work than the ones who rotate with residents generally. Like a lot more honestly.

I’ll just make it easy on you, all DO schools will have a majority of preceptor based rotations and COCA ow has requirements that at least one of your core rotations bust be in conjunction with a residency program. It’s just one of the sacrifices you make going to a DO school. It doesn’t necessarily mean you will have bad rotations.

Some schools are notorious for bad rotations, namely LMU, KYCOM, WCUCOM and I would bet that Liberty will have crap rotations as well.
 
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One attending posted some time ago about why they his/her program is hesitant to take DOs, and I sure wish I could find that post...I would definitely show it to my clinical Deans. I know the poster wasn't the wise aProgram Director. Maybe @Perrotfish???

I think you are thinking of someone else. No military program is hesitant to take DOs.
 
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