Official Eternal IM WAMC Thread

[ace_inhibitor111]

Posting for a friend. He only has 2 LORs (1 SLOE). Are programs not reviewing his app until he gets all 3 in? Trying to get him to contact any preceptor he knows

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[DingDongD]

I think I am a bit anxious but do want to know what my honest chances are. Hometown is Florida and in-state school.


Step 1: 243
Step 2: 242
AOA: no
Ranks - unsure as our school does not say
Grades: Honors in AI; HP in IM through 3rd year; Rest are all pass in other clerkships.
Publications: 1 with 2 oral presentations
ECs: Lots of leadership positions
Program list: 50 programs

AdventHealth Florida
Baylor College of Medicine Program - Houston
Baylor University Medical Center Program
Boston University Medical Center Program
Carolinas Medical Center Program
Case Western
Clevland Clinic Florida
Clevland Clinic Foundation
Duke University
Emory
Florida Atlantic University
Florida State University
George Washington University Program
John Hopkins University Program
John Hopkins/Bayview
Louisiana State University (New Orleans) Program
McGaw Medical Center of Northwestern University Program
Medical College of Georgia Program
Medical University of South Carolina
MedStar Health/Georgetown University Hospital
NCH Healthcare system
Ohio State
Penn State
Rush University
Sidney Kimmel
Stanford
Temple
Tufts
Tulane
University of Alabama Medical Center Program
University of Florida
University of Illinois College of Medicine at Chicago Program
University of Maryland Program
University of Miami - Jackson
University of North Carolina
University of South Florida Morsani Program
University of Texas at Austin Dell Medical School Program
University of Texas Health Science Center at Houston Program
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
University of Virginia Medical Center Program
UPMC
Vanderbilt
Virginia Commonwealth University Health System Program
Wake Forest
Yale

 

[Adjet]

I think I am a bit anxious but do want to know what my honest chances are. Hometown is Florida and in-state school.


Step 1: 243
Step 2: 242
AOA: no
Ranks - unsure as our school does not say
Grades: Honors in AI; HP in IM through 3rd year; Rest are all pass in other clerkships.
Publications: 1 with 2 oral presentations
ECs: Lots of leadership positions
Program list: 50 programs

AdventHealth Florida
Baylor College of Medicine Program - Houston
Baylor University Medical Center Program
Boston University Medical Center Program
Carolinas Medical Center Program
Case Western
Clevland Clinic Florida
Clevland Clinic Foundation
Duke University
Emory
Florida Atlantic University
Florida State University
George Washington University Program
John Hopkins University Program
John Hopkins/Bayview
Louisiana State University (New Orleans) Program
McGaw Medical Center of Northwestern University Program
Medical College of Georgia Program
Medical University of South Carolina
MedStar Health/Georgetown University Hospital
NCH Healthcare system
Ohio State
Penn State
Rush University
Sidney Kimmel
Stanford
Temple
Tufts
Tulane
University of Alabama Medical Center Program
University of Florida
University of Illinois College of Medicine at Chicago Program
University of Maryland Program
University of Miami - Jackson
University of North Carolina
University of South Florida Morsani Program
University of Texas at Austin Dell Medical School Program
University of Texas Health Science Center at Houston Program
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
University of Virginia Medical Center Program
UPMC
Vanderbilt
Virginia Commonwealth University Health System Program
Wake Forest
Yale

You'll get enough interviews

 

[deleted709825]

Do programs typically send out interview invitations only once, or will there be a second round of invitations from most programs?

 

[gutonc]

Do programs typically send out interview invitations only once, or will there be a second round of invitations from most programs?

This has been asked and answered (by me) roughly 100 times over the past 10 years.

There will be multiple rounds from virtually every program. That number will be anywhere from 2-5, with most in the 2 or 3 range and a few outliers on both ends.

This year is weird AF though so there may only be one round from some and might be 10 from others.

The only certainty is that, when ROL day rolls around, if you haven't gotten an interview, you're not getting one.

 

[disorder]

Sooo this is probably too late but want to know if I need to apply for more programs...very anxious right now.

Northeast school, unranked/(low tier?) MD
Rank - 4nd quartile
Step 1 - 235
Step 2 - 242
AOA - lol nope
GHHS - nope

Clerkships: No honors 3rd yr (good clinicals but terrible with shelf until getting avg/above avg the latter half of the year...)
HP (IM, peds, neuro, surg), P (OBGYN, psych), HP in sub-I in IM (team only did admissions & VERY low patient volume cause of covid :/ )
Honored my last two 4th yr IM electives but I hear it doesn't matter.

Research: ~3 years in college basic science, 2 yrs full time translational science bench work for clinical studies (gap years), 1 summer after MS1.
(1) 1st author pub & (1) 3rd author from gap years, (1) 1st author pub thats a literature review from that summer.

Other EC: Pretty bare bones, no leadership positions but volunteer work at the free clinic and community clinic/outreach work with underserved + music related volunteer work throughout college -> gap years -> med school.

LORs: 1 DOM, 2 I believe to be strong LOR, 1 probably good

Not exactly sure what my goal is but just hoping for a decent program to train to be a doc (ideally back home in CA or NY where I went to school). Don't know if I want to specialize but still want to keep my options open at this point.

CA
Adventist Memorial
Alameda
CPMC
Huntington Memorial
Kaiser Oakland, SF, SC, LA, SoCal
Loma Linda
LA County Habor
Olive View
Riverside Community
UC Riverside
SB Cottage
Santa Clara Valley
Scripps Green & Mercy
St. Mary Long Beach
St. Mary SF
Stanford
UCLA
UC Irvine
UCSF
UCSF/Fresno
UC Davis
USC

Oregon & Washington:
OHS
Providence (both programs)
Virginia Mason
Legacy health

NY
Cedars Sinai
Family Health @ NYU
Mt Sinai BI
Mt Sinai Morningside
Mt Sinai
Jacobi
Montefiore Moses/Weiler
Columbia
Cornell
NYU
Stony Brook
SUNY Downstate
Zucker Lenox Hill
Zucker Hofstra/Northwell

Boston:
Boston U
Mt Auburn
Tufts

Pennsylvania:
Loyola
Rush
Jefferson
Temple
Pennsy hospital
UPMC

Rest:
Bayview
Rutgers Newark
Tulane
U of Chicago northshore
U of I at Chicago
U of Maryland
U of Miami
Medstar Georgetown

Adventist Memorial yes
Alameda yes
CPMC yes
Huntington Memorial yes
Kaiser Oakland, SF, SC, LA, SoCal yes, maybe, yes, maybe, ?
Loma Linda yes
LA County Habor yes
Olive View yes
Riverside Community yes
UC Riverside yes
SB Cottage yes
Santa Clara Valley yes
Scripps Green & Mercy maybe, yes
St. Mary Long Beach yes
St. Mary SF yes
Stanford no no no no no no no no
UCLA no no no
UC Irvine maybe
UCSF no no no
UCSF/Fresno yes
UC Davis maybe
USC maybe

Oregon & Washington:
OHS no
Providence (both programs)yes
Virginia Mason yes
Legacy health yes

NY
Cedars Sinai uh, this is in CA. so i'm gonna say you're SOL here.
Family Health @ NYU yes
Mt Sinai BI yes
Mt Sinai Morningside yes
Mt Sinai no
Jacobi yes
Montefiore Moses/Weiler no
Columbia no no no no no no
Cornell no no no no no
NYU no no no no
Stony Brook maybe
SUNY Downstate yes
Zucker Lenox Hill yes
Zucker Hofstra/Northwell maybe

Boston:
Boston U maybe
Mt Auburn yes
Tufts maybe

Pennsylvania:
Loyola Chicago, you figure it out
Rush Chicago, you figure it out
Jefferson maybe
Temple maybe
Pennsy hospital no no no no no no
UPMC no

Rest:
Bayview maybe
Rutgers Newark maybe
Tulane maybe
U of Chicago northshore yes
U of I at Chicago maybe
U of Maryland no
U of Miami maybe
Medstar Georgetown no


You have a smattering of low tier community programs and high tier academic programs. You'll match. But, what do you want? Your list tells me you have no idea. Maybe I'm being harsh with my outlook on your app.

 

[merlinnus66]

Hey y'all most likely the wrong thread, but couldn't find another one for invites so thought I'd shoot here!

I've only gotten 4 invites so far for IM and am starting to get worried. Should I start making calls or wait till end of next week? Any advice appreciated.

 

[Blue29]

Hey y'all most likely the wrong thread, but couldn't find another one for invites so thought I'd shoot here!

I've only gotten 4 invites so far for IM and am starting to get worried. Should I start making calls or wait till end of next week? Any advice appreciated.

Check the Reddit spreadsheet for IM

 

[gutonc]

Hey y'all most likely the wrong thread, but couldn't find another one for invites so thought I'd shoot here!

I've only gotten 4 invites so far for IM and am starting to get worried. Should I start making calls or wait till end of next week? Any advice appreciated.

Nobody’s started one yet. Feel free.

 

[qwwerty]

Adventist Memorial yes
Alameda yes
CPMC yes
Huntington Memorial yes
Kaiser Oakland, SF, SC, LA, SoCal yes, maybe, yes, maybe, ?
Loma Linda yes
LA County Habor yes
Olive View yes
Riverside Community yes
UC Riverside yes
SB Cottage yes
Santa Clara Valley yes
Scripps Green & Mercy maybe, yes
St. Mary Long Beach yes
St. Mary SF yes
Stanford no no no no no no no no
UCLA no no no
UC Irvine maybe
UCSF no no no
UCSF/Fresno yes
UC Davis maybe
USC maybe

Oregon & Washington:
OHS no
Providence (both programs)yes
Virginia Mason yes
Legacy health yes

NY
Cedars Sinai uh, this is in CA. so i'm gonna say you're SOL here.
Family Health @ NYU yes
Mt Sinai BI yes
Mt Sinai Morningside yes
Mt Sinai no
Jacobi yes
Montefiore Moses/Weiler no
Columbia no no no no no no
Cornell no no no no no
NYU no no no no
Stony Brook maybe
SUNY Downstate yes
Zucker Lenox Hill yes
Zucker Hofstra/Northwell maybe

Boston:
Boston U maybe
Mt Auburn yes
Tufts maybe

Pennsylvania:
Loyola Chicago, you figure it out
Rush Chicago, you figure it out
Jefferson maybe
Temple maybe
Pennsy hospital no no no no no no
UPMC no

Rest:
Bayview maybe
Rutgers Newark maybe
Tulane maybe
U of Chicago northshore yes
U of I at Chicago maybe
U of Maryland no
U of Miami maybe
Medstar Georgetown no


You have a smattering of low tier community programs and high tier academic programs. You'll match. But, what do you want? Your list tells me you have no idea. Maybe I'm being harsh with my outlook on your app.

Thanks for your feedback. I realize I categorized some of the programs incorrectly, and you're correct that I'm not really sure myself. I based much of it on residency explorer and location. It is lat(er) but maybe I should look into adding additional programs that are more in my target/safety range. The reach programs I already know are basically unattainable for me but I guess I figured I would still give it a shot.

 

[ChessMaster3000]

Fully understand that no amount of interest is going to convince a program to take you if you're not the right fit for them. However, I have heard that in order to even be considered for some programs in the midwest, especially if coming from the east/west coast, it's advisable to reach out to them personally to let them know your intentions. That's why I was wondering when an acceptable time range might be. Since we're saying to give them a break, I'm getting the feel of a week past submission to give some time to cool down?

Wrong

 

[Deecee2DO]

Do high Step scores help with getting ranked higher or just whether you get an interview or not

 

[veebo]

Do high Step scores help with getting ranked higher or just whether you get an interview or not

Yes they will help you get ranked higher. Most places have some form of algorithm that takes into account different things on the paper app and interview grade to place you at a score and slot you into the rank list. After that the program, residents, etc can either argue you should be higher or lower. How much they matter is gonna be different program to program and specialty to specialty.

 

[Deecee2DO]

Yes they will help you get ranked higher. Most places have some form of algorithm that takes into account different things on the paper app and interview grade to place you at a score and slot you into the rank list. After that the program, residents, etc can either argue you should be higher or lower. How much they matter is gonna be different program to program and specialty to specialty.

Thank you!!

 

[ShuperNewbie]

Do high Step scores help with getting ranked higher or just whether you get an interview or not

Different places do it differently. I know for us in NYC, what happens is that step scores are used as a filter for determining whether you get an interview, but then afterwards, our interviewers are "blinded" to your entire application so that during the interview, they're just determining whether or not you'd be a good "fit" for the program. Afterwards, during the ranking process, things like step scores are less important than whether or not we think you would succeed at our program. That being said, what the previous poster said was not wrong either. There is a method for "tiering" individuals quickly but then figuring out whether or not that person is "ranked with a high likelihood to match" is entirely based on committee discussions and reviewer comments.

 

[Deecee2DO]

Different places do it differently. I know for us in NYC, what happens is that step scores are used as a filter for determining whether you get an interview, but then afterwards, our interviewers are "blinded" to your entire application so that during the interview, they're just determining whether or not you'd be a good "fit" for the program. Afterwards, during the ranking process, things like step scores are less important than whether or not we think you would succeed at our program. That being said, what the previous poster said was not wrong either. There is a method for "tiering" individuals quickly but then figuring out whether or not that person is "ranked with a high likelihood to match" is entirely based on committee discussions and reviewer comments.

Thank you!!

 

[Doctor_Strange]

I've gotten several interviews this cycle and I feel like it's mainly due to my Step 1 score of a 243 but I am somewhat paranoid that my lower Step 2 score of 237 may ultimately hurt me when it comes time to rank. Is my paranoia misplaced? If I got the inteiview should I be worried about this? Again part of me thinks at these few mid-tier university / community places that they sent me IIs exclusively off my Step 1 score...

 

[deleted709825]

@Doctor_Strange

Did they have your Step 2 score when you got the invitation? If so, it seems like it couldn't have made that bad of an impact.

But I'm also an applicant, so what do I know.

 

[ShuperNewbie]

I've gotten several interviews this cycle and I feel like it's mainly due to my Step 1 score of a 243 but I am somewhat paranoid that my lower Step 2 score of 237 may ultimately hurt me when it comes time to rank. Is my paranoia misplaced? If I got the inteiview should I be worried about this? Again part of me thinks at these few mid-tier university / community places that they sent me IIs exclusively off my Step 1 score...

Your paranoia is misplaced. If they're concerned they'll ask you to explain it during the interview. Otherwise a good proportion of places are just using these step scores to filter for an interview. If you got one, it means they're interested in a "first date" so don't be too paranoid and just go with the flow. I actually happened to see the step 1/2 spread of scores for my class and they ranged from the 210s-260s. After a certain point they really just care about who you are (hence the need to interview). On the opposite side of this, I actually have a buddy who had a step 1 score in the 270s. He actually had to explain that to programs because everyone expected him to be a weirdo lol (he's actually quite lovely).

 

[Doctor_Strange]

@Doctor_Strange

Did they have your Step 2 score when you got the invitation? If so, it seems like it couldn't have made that bad of an impact.

But I'm also an applicant, so what do I know.

They had both -- but 7 out of my 11 interviews were offerred within the first five days so I definitely feel like -- perhaps in a paradoxical way -- that my app wasn't even holistically evaluated. They just saw one good score and sent me a II but when they finally rank me, it will not as favorable...

 

[AussieAg]

They had both -- but 7 out of my 11 interviews were offerred within the first five days so I definitely feel like -- perhaps in a paradoxical way -- that my app wasn't even holistically evaluated. They just saw one good score and sent me a II but when they finally rank me, it will not as favorable...

Scores matter for the interview. Personality matters for the ranking. If you got the interview, your CV is good enough for you to be ranked-to-match at the program. Your ultimate ranking depends on your interview.

 

[chemistryiscool]

Third year worried about matching IM, starting to look into auditions and wanting to have a realistic list

US DO, top/original/whatever 5
Rank - 3rd quartile
Step 1 - 210
Level 1 - 515
Step 2 - haven’t taken yet
AOA - no
GHHS - no

Clerkships: I’ve only taken FM, IM and peds shelfs, IM score pending. Glowing evals so far

Research: 1 second author review pub, poster presentation from research done in undergrad

Other EC: i did a lot of time in undergrad working in medical field - 4 years lab tech, 2 years scribing, volunteering as crisis counselor in undergrad and peer counselor in medical school. Community outreach, president positions in medical school clubs

LORs: 2 from clerkship IM preceptors, hopefully 1-2 from auditions TBD

University of Missouri - Columbia
UMKC
SLU
U of AZ - Phoenix
Providence Medical Center


suggestions for programs where I might have a fighting chance and be happy appreciated

 

[MLNS]

Third year worried about matching IM, starting to look into auditions and wanting to have a realistic list

US DO, top/original/whatever 5
Rank - 3rd quartile
Step 1 - 210
Level 1 - 515
Step 2 - haven’t taken yet
AOA - no
GHHS - no

Clerkships: I’ve only taken FM, IM and peds shelfs, IM score pending. Glowing evals so far

Research: 1 second author review pub, poster presentation from research done in undergrad

Other EC: i did a lot of time in undergrad working in medical field - 4 years lab tech, 2 years scribing, volunteering as crisis counselor in undergrad and peer counselor in medical school. Community outreach, president positions in medical school clubs

LORs: 2 from clerkship IM preceptors, hopefully 1-2 from auditions TBD

University of Missouri - Columbia
UMKC
SLU
U of AZ - Phoenix
Providence Medical Center


suggestions for programs where I might have a fighting chance and be happy appreciated

240+ step 2 will help you
No one will give a **** about your volunteering. This is a job. We want to know if we want to work with you at 3 am not if you shoveled dog **** in Panama when you were 20

Midwest focus; assuming step 2 average:

UIC
Loyola
Univ of ILL Peoria
SIU
Univ of Nebraska
Creighton
KU
KU-Wichita
Louisville
Univ of Kentucky

Reach vs in your wheelhouse pending average step 2 and who you talk to. But I’d do a bunch of university programs similar in ranking to the above along with a bunch of community programs.

 

[chemistryiscool]

240+ step 2 will help you
No one will give a **** about your volunteering. This is a job. We want to know if we want to work with you at 3 am not if you shoveled dog **** in Panama when you were 20

Midwest focus; assuming step 2 average:

UIC
Loyola
Univ of ILL Peoria
SIU
Univ of Nebraska
Creighton
KU
KU-Wichita
Louisville
Univ of Kentucky

Reach vs in your wheelhouse pending average step 2 and who you talk to. But I’d do a bunch of university programs similar in ranking to the above along with a bunch of community programs.

Thank you! Just curious, does my work experience help me at all? I’m always surprised this comes up on nrmp bc I didn’t think it would matter past getting into med school.

do my listed programs seem reasonable to audition at or are any of them too out of reach?

also - would different ECs or seeking out more pubs help me at this point or am I better off keeping my head down with rotations and boards?

 

[MLNS]

Thank you! does my work experience help me at all? I’m always surprised this comes up on nrmp bc I didn’t think it would matter past getting into med school.

also - would different ECs or seeking out more pubs help me at this point or am I better off keeping my head down with rotations and boards

Personally I think the highest step 2 and LORs from academic physicians (known if possible) is your best bang for your buck. IMO the places with the highest predilection for research are already out of your league (no offense).

 

[jackinabox1]

Third year worried about matching IM, starting to look into auditions and wanting to have a realistic list

US DO, top/original/whatever 5
Rank - 3rd quartile
Step 1 - 210
Level 1 - 515
Step 2 - haven’t taken yet
AOA - no
GHHS - no

Clerkships: I’ve only taken FM, IM and peds shelfs, IM score pending. Glowing evals so far

Research: 1 second author review pub, poster presentation from research done in undergrad

Other EC: i did a lot of time in undergrad working in medical field - 4 years lab tech, 2 years scribing, volunteering as crisis counselor in undergrad and peer counselor in medical school. Community outreach, president positions in medical school clubs

LORs: 2 from clerkship IM preceptors, hopefully 1-2 from auditions TBD

University of Missouri - Columbia
UMKC
SLU
U of AZ - Phoenix
Providence Medical Center


suggestions for programs where I might have a fighting chance and be happy appreciated

I would look at the class profiles of all the IM residencies in the places you could see yourself being in. If the classes are 1/4 DO or more, then apply. Quick look at the recommendations so far, UIC and Loyola are big reaches. They recruit mostly MD's and the 1-2 DO's every year who do get in are all-stars.

Focus on crushing step 2. If you can get some research in, that's always great, preferably published work. EC's matter in the sense that they provide context for your application. It's not about the sheer number of experiences, but rather the story they tell and how they integrate into your profile.

Good luck!

 

[MLNS]

I would look at the class profiles of all the IM residencies in the places you could see yourself being in. If the classes are 1/4 DO or more, then apply. Quick look at the recommendations so far, UIC and Loyola are big reaches. They recruit mostly MD's and the 1-2 DO's every year who do get in are all-stars.

Focus on crushing step 2. If you can get some research in, that's always great, preferably published work. EC's matter in the sense that they provide context for your application. It's not about the sheer number of experiences, but rather the story they tell and how they integrate into your profile.

Good luck!

Considering I know both programs fairly well (faculty and residents) they are, in fact, not reaches.

Thank you for your M4 contribution, however.

 

[jackinabox1]

Considering I know both programs fairly well (faculty and residents) they are, in fact, not reaches.

Thank you for your M4 contribution, however.

If each class only has 1-2 DO's, which he/ she is, it's a reach just by statistics. It's his/her money, but it's likely not worth it. Given my proximity to the process, my advice is just as salient as yours.

 

[chemistryiscool]

@MLNS @jackinabox1 thanks so much for your input! What do you think about university of Missouri? It’s my top choice and I have close ties to the area and the institution. I’m in the bottom quartile for step 1 for them, but otherwise within the middle 50% of those who matched there

 

[MLNS]

If each class only has 1-2 DO's, which he/ she is, it's a reach just by statistics. It's his/her money, but it's likely not worth it. Given my proximity to the process, my advice is just as salient as yours.

I guess you glanced over the part to where I said I know residents AND faculty in both programs (ergo I know the stats of the DOs there). So, yet again, you’re completely wrong.

 

[jackinabox1]

@MLNS @jackinabox1 thanks so much for your input! What do you think about university of Missouri? It’s my top choice and I have close ties to the area and the institution. I’m in the bottom quartile for step 1 for them, but otherwise within the middle 50% of those who matched there

At a quick glance, it has a sizeable DO cohort. I think it's worth applying if you are within range of the scores. Demonstrated interest has been especially important this cycle given how things have been virtual. I would try to attend the virtual open house if that becomes a thing and see if you can do an away there.

I strongly recommend browsing the class lists of the programs you are interested in and see where students come from. That's actual data right there you can rely upon for what are good places to apply to rather than our personal anecdotes.

 

[AlteredScale]

@MLNS @jackinabox1 thanks so much for your input! What do you think about university of Missouri? It’s my top choice and I have close ties to the area and the institution. I’m in the bottom quartile for step 1 for them, but otherwise within the middle 50% of those who matched there

Mizzou isn’t that competitive of a program and if you are in range score wise and everything else in your app is teed you then you’ll interview. What seems to happen is it it gets ranked lower for most ppl due to location.m, so you’re in luck if that’s already your number 1. I suggest doing sub-I there and or grabbing a letter of rec from that inst

 

[kazill]

Adventist Memorial yes
Alameda yes
CPMC yes
Huntington Memorial yes
Kaiser Oakland, SF, SC, LA, SoCal yes, maybe, yes, maybe, ?
Loma Linda yes
LA County Habor yes
Olive View yes
Riverside Community yes
UC Riverside yes
SB Cottage yes
Santa Clara Valley yes
Scripps Green & Mercy maybe, yes
St. Mary Long Beach yes
St. Mary SF yes
Stanford no no no no no no no no
UCLA no no no
UC Irvine maybe
UCSF no no no
UCSF/Fresno yes
UC Davis maybe
USC maybe

Oregon & Washington:
OHS no
Providence (both programs)yes
Virginia Mason yes
Legacy health yes

NY
Cedars Sinai uh, this is in CA. so i'm gonna say you're SOL here.
Family Health @ NYU yes
Mt Sinai BI yes
Mt Sinai Morningside yes
Mt Sinai no
Jacobi yes
Montefiore Moses/Weiler no
Columbia no no no no no no
Cornell no no no no no
NYU no no no no
Stony Brook maybe
SUNY Downstate yes
Zucker Lenox Hill yes
Zucker Hofstra/Northwell maybe

Boston:
Boston U maybe
Mt Auburn yes
Tufts maybe

Pennsylvania:
Loyola Chicago, you figure it out
Rush Chicago, you figure it out
Jefferson maybe
Temple maybe
Pennsy hospital no no no no no no
UPMC no

Rest:
Bayview maybe
Rutgers Newark maybe
Tulane maybe
U of Chicago northshore yes
U of I at Chicago maybe
U of Maryland no
U of Miami maybe
Medstar Georgetown no


You have a smattering of low tier community programs and high tier academic programs. You'll match. But, what do you want? Your list tells me you have no idea. Maybe I'm being harsh with my outlook on your app.

As a very very minor note, Pennsylvania Hospital, while affiliated with UPenn, isn’t their flagship residency (ie HUP) but a community program in the middle of the city that used to be an AOA program, this applicant would definitely have a good shot at getting in.

 

[TheTeacher]

Question about auditions-should I do them at the academic places I actually want to go to or any academic place where I can get letters from academic faculty but not run the risk of potentially hurting myself. Ive heard if you have high Step scores auditions can potentially hurt at programs you actually are ranking highly. My goal is upper mid-tier academic IM but I realize my limitations as a DO and understand its going to come down to connections/letters and more research
Stats:
MS3 (DO)
Step 1: 254
Step 2: TBD
Clerkship grades: All Honors
Research: 1 pub with a mid tier academic allergy PD so far. working on other projects right now as well
AOA-I wish but im at a DO program
Very strong ECs and leadership positions and lots of work experience during med school and prior to
Graduate degree prior to med school

Question #2: Should I do auditions/electives in subspecialty of interest (GI or A/I) or IM and does it matter?

So I'm a RowanSOM M4. we were barely allowed to do aways and I got a lot of mid to upper-tier IM invites. I think they really only matter if you're doing top tier IM programs! ( but even then I got one of those). I think aways are overrated IMO. If you have solid stats and a good application you will get the invite! Things also are very regionally based. The ranking is a different story but if you're shooting for a top-tier program then yeah do an IM SUB I there. But like you said, it can hurt you too if you don't perform. If you want to do GI or A/I elective that is fine but it won't have an effect with the IM people !

 

[gutonc]

Question mildly off topic - if I apply IM and Med-Peds, does that look bad like if I was applying to two different specialties? Is it better to just stick with one?

I ask because my top choice had an unmatched spot in their med-peds program last year so I’m considering doing IM there #1 and med-peds #2 then going back to IM for everything else

1. That's a terrible match/app strategy.
2. You have no idea what your #1 will be after the interview process is over.
3. Nobody is going to take your Med/Peds app seriously and offer you an interview if you don't have Med/Peds interest/experience on your CV.

If you're applying Med/Peds and using IM as a backup because there aren't that many M/P programs, that's reasonable and a pretty standard approach. Using M/P at a single program as a "backup" at a single hospital to increase your chances of matching at that hospital (recognizing that IM and M/P are different programs) is ridiculous, transparent and will backfire.

 

[oh4sure]

Anyone know much about Wake Med in Raleigh, like how competitive they are or what type of step 1 they want?

 

[Deecee2DO]

Anyone know much about Wake Med in Raleigh, like how competitive they are or what type of step 1 they want?

Are you DO or MD? as an MD 230s+ with a solid app should be fine. As a DO 240s-250+is my best guess

 

[Nilu123]

Could you please help us figure out the best strategy for preparing for my partner’s upcoming non-US IMG residency application?

My partner completed a dermatology residency in India about 8 years ago. He practiced as an ICU physician in India for 6 months. Then we moved to a Middle Eastern country, and he worked as an ICU physician there for 7 months. Then we moved to the US so I could become a pre-med student, and he did a 3 month observational fellowship in the US with a dermatologist. Since then, he hasn’t worked, and he’s basically been helping me get into med school primarily and studying for Step 1 secondarily.

Now, I just finally got into a US med school. By default, I’ll start this August. However, I’m considering asking for a one-year deferral so that he can improve his app here in India before we return to the US. He is in the final stages of preparing to take Step 1. He hopes to get into an Internal Medicine residency at the same Midwest public academic medical center that I have gotten into for med school.

The IM program’s website says that most of the IMGs who get in there graduated from med school in the past 5 years. There’s nothing we can do about this, but I’m concerned that his lack of recent work experience as a doctor on top of that could hurt his chances even further. My main question is, is it important that he get some work experience as a doctor here in India before we return to the US? If so, would ~3 months of work as a physician in an ICU here in India be enough to fill that bucket? Or is it important that it be 6 months to a year of experience? Or does this not really matter? If we return to the US and I start med school this year, then he could get 3 months in before that. Getting more than that would require me deferring for a year, though I wouldn’t mind doing that if it makes sense.

Or would it make more sense for us to just return to the US as soon as possible and for him to attempt to get a research job and observational experiences at the institution I was lucky enough to get into, make contacts, and not worry about the lack of recent work experience as a doctor in his country of origin?

I would really appreciate any feedback on this dilemma you might be willing and able to provide.

 

[Animalcules]

This is a tough situation, to be honest. I am not optimistic that your partner will match into internal medicine in the United States. There are just too many red flags. IMG hurts him, YOG hurts a lot, lack of letters from the US (I assume), lack of true USCE, and frankly not having worked in medicine for the longest time. I just think it will be a very frustrating journey and costs a lot of time and money. I think he will have an easier time transitioning to a research position in the US without seeing patients. Sorry if this is so pessimistic, but I think it is better for you guys to be upfront. I do not think you delaying your training for a year helps anyone.

 

[Nilu123]

Thank you for your honest feedback. wouldn’t having a solid recent year of work as a physician help mitigate the lack of recent work experience as a doctor though?

I hear what you’re saying that even if we do that, it’s unlikely to move the needle in your estimation. But if we’re going to try anyway because we mortals are fools, hope springs eternal, and I simply cannot accept the admittedly realistic interpretation that my partner may never practice medicine in the US, as he’s a truly outstanding physician who patients and colleagues love, then do you think that one year vs. 2-3 months of work as a physician here in India before returning to the US might make a significant difference in the context of an overall recovery strategy?

Phrased another way, based on your response, I’m guessing that if he doesn’t get at least a year of clinical experience in India in before applying, and just does 2-3 months instead, then there’s probably no chance at all, right? Whereas if he gets a year of recent experience, it’s still unlikely, but relatively more possible? Would you agree with that?

 

[CAP Man]

Are you DO or MD? as an MD 230s+ with a solid app should be fine. As a DO 240s-250+is my best guess

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think OP asked about the Wake Med program in Raleigh, and not Wake Forest in Winston Salem, NC--because it sounds like you were describing the scores for the program in Winston-Salem. Also, Wake Med isn't in residency explorer because 2021 is their first graduating class, so there's no average stats available yet. Definitely apply and see what happens.

To OP, I'm an IM applying DO who applied to Wake Forest in Winston Salem with a high 23x and 25x step scores and wasn't invited for interview. I think there's a few reasons for that that are more specific to me like my work hx, research, my school...but I don't have red flags. With that said, the scores Deecee stated are what I would expect for an interview there.

 

[Deecee2DO]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think OP asked about the Wake Med program in Raleigh, and not Wake Forest in Winston Salem, NC--because it sounds like you were describing the scores for the program in Winston-Salem. Also, Wake Med isn't in residency explorer because 2021 is their first graduating class, so there's no average stats available yet. Definitely apply and see what happens.

To OP, I'm an IM applying DO who applied to Wake Forest in Winston Salem with a high 23x and 25x step scores and wasn't invited for interview. I think there's a few reasons for that that are more specific to me like my work hx, research, my school...but I don't have red flags. With that said, the scores Deecee stated are what I would expect for an interview there.

Oh wow i didnt know that! Thanks for the info

 

[rokshana]

Thank you for your honest feedback. wouldn’t having a solid recent year of work as a physician help mitigate the lack of recent work experience as a doctor though?

I hear what you’re saying that even if we do that, it’s unlikely to move the needle in your estimation. But if we’re going to try anyway because we mortals are fools, hope springs eternal, and I simply cannot accept the admittedly realistic interpretation that my partner may never practice medicine in the US, as he’s a truly outstanding physician who patients and colleagues love, then do you think that one year vs. 2-3 months of work as a physician here in India before returning to the US might make a significant difference in the context of an overall recovery strategy?

Phrased another way, based on your response, I’m guessing that if he doesn’t get at least a year of clinical experience in India in before applying, and just does 2-3 months instead, then there’s probably no chance at all, right? Whereas if he gets a year of recent experience, it’s still unlikely, but relatively more possible? Would you agree with that?

Not sure what you want to hear...an honest opinion or something to validate what your SO hopes will happen.

mare you really willing to risk your chance at going to med school in the US on the slim chance he will actually match in the US?

how many years ago did he graduate...if he completed a derm residency over 8 years ago...and how many years has he not had any clinical experience? Step scores? Any USCE experience?

you are more importantly he should go check out the IMG applicant thread for this year...and see what the reality is.

 

[Onunu]

Could you please help us figure out the best strategy for preparing for my partner’s upcoming non-US IMG residency application?

My partner completed a dermatology residency in India about 8 years ago. He practiced as an ICU physician in India for 6 months. Then we moved to a Middle Eastern country, and he worked as an ICU physician there for 7 months. Then we moved to the US so I could become a pre-med student, and he did a 3 month observational fellowship in the US with a dermatologist. Since then, he hasn’t worked, and he’s basically been helping me get into med school primarily and studying for Step 1 secondarily.

Now, I just finally got into a US med school. By default, I’ll start this August. However, I’m considering asking for a one-year deferral so that he can improve his app here in India before we return to the US. He is in the final stages of preparing to take Step 1. He hopes to get into an Internal Medicine residency at the same Midwest public academic medical center that I have gotten into for med school.

The IM program’s website says that most of the IMGs who get in there graduated from med school in the past 5 years. There’s nothing we can do about this, but I’m concerned that his lack of recent work experience as a doctor on top of that could hurt his chances even further. My main question is, is it important that he get some work experience as a doctor here in India before we return to the US? If so, would ~3 months of work as a physician in an ICU here in India be enough to fill that bucket? Or is it important that it be 6 months to a year of experience? Or does this not really matter? If we return to the US and I start med school this year, then he could get 3 months in before that. Getting more than that would require me deferring for a year, though I wouldn’t mind doing that if it makes sense.

Or would it make more sense for us to just return to the US as soon as possible and for him to attempt to get a research job and observational experiences at the institution I was lucky enough to get into, make contacts, and not worry about the lack of recent work experience as a doctor in his country of origin?

I would really appreciate any feedback on this dilemma you might be willing and able to provide.

Hello, you’ll get better answers from the Facebook groups. SDN doesn’t really help for strategies for a non-usimg.

 

[Nilu123]

@rokshana, how would deferring for one year risk my chances of going to med school?

I understand that there are many reasons why the probability of my partner getting in are low, and I appreciate your reiteration of that assessment. However, as an attending physician, how would you talk to a patient to whom you had just given a "death-sentence" prognosis who says something along the lines of, "Ok doc, I hear that you're certain that I'm going to die soon no matter what and I should just give up now, but what can I do to improve my chances of surviving anyway because, as I already explained, giving up is not an option that I'm willing to consider?" Would you try to get them to accept nihilistic pessimism? Or would you try and think of what can they do to attempt to achieve their admittedly very low-probability goal, since that's what they've chosen? And if you didn't know what they could do, would you give up? Or would you do some research in between your other responsibilities on PubMed to figure out a deeper, more helpful understanding of their disease's etiopathogenesis and treatment options based on more recent molecular evidence than what's summarized on UpToDate?

I understand this situation is not the same, because it's not a life or death situation, we're definitely not patients, and I'm not suggesting that you do anything like that for us--although I am suggesting that I wish that more attendings did that for their patients. Nevertheless, I think this may be a helpful analogy since the "survival" of one's career can sometimes seem analogous to a true life-or-death situation to the individual, and both my partner's and my careers seem that way to us.

Also, I'd like to add that I got similar advice to just give up because it was supposedly impossible when I started pre-med, and I beat the odds eventually. Many of my partner's non-US IMG friends also got similar advice, and also got in eventually anyway, albeit not to competitive specialties. A good historical example of a leader who fully understood that there was, objectively speaking, no hope, but who simply refused to accept that, and came up with ideas until potential solutions occurred to him was Churchill during the Battle of Dunkirk. I certainly wish that all attendings approached people's problems (or at least all of their patients' medical problems) with a similarly realistic yet gritty and unyielding hopeful, adaptive attitude. Because attendings are our leaders.

To be fair, I also understand the extreme time pressures and other restrictions that arguably make maintaining and acting on such adaptive attitude unrealistic. However, I would suggest that maintaining such an attitude is, nevertheless, possible, and it is also what many patients in supposedly hopeless situations want and need. However, I am not an attending, so I do recognize that you have far more experience than I do which must yield a different perspective, and please do correct me if I'm wrong about any and all of this.

Thank you again for your feedback.

 

[Animalcules]

Thank you for your honest feedback. wouldn’t having a solid recent year of work as a physician help mitigate the lack of recent work experience as a doctor though?

I hear what you’re saying that even if we do that, it’s unlikely to move the needle in your estimation. But if we’re going to try anyway because we mortals are fools, hope springs eternal, and I simply cannot accept the admittedly realistic interpretation that my partner may never practice medicine in the US, as he’s a truly outstanding physician who patients and colleagues love, then do you think that one year vs. 2-3 months of work as a physician here in India before returning to the US might make a significant difference in the context of an overall recovery strategy?

Phrased another way, based on your response, I’m guessing that if he doesn’t get at least a year of clinical experience in India in before applying, and just does 2-3 months instead, then there’s probably no chance at all, right? Whereas if he gets a year of recent experience, it’s still unlikely, but relatively more possible? Would you agree with that?

I honestly don’t think 3 months or a year in India will make a big difference. I know that’s not what you want to hear, but I think this is a realistic assessment. What would be needed is true USCE and associated letters that say he can do it all. This will be impossible to obtain. I think YOG by itself will be too big of a hurdle to overcome. I think this is a moment where one of you needs to make a sacrifice. Either you continue your careers in the US or in India. But I don’t think he will be able to work as a physician in the US. If he wants to try, he should apply for FM very broadly and see what the reality looks like. Adding a year of work experience in India is probably not beneficial for either of you.

 

[Nilu123]

@Animalcules, thank you. That's helpful. Most likely, we'll go with the 3 months of CE in India since that doesn't require me to defer a year, and it sounds like it probably doesn't really matter either way. And that way, at least no one can say he hasn't treated patients as a physician recently.

By "true USCE," you mean actually treating patients in the US, as opposed to just doing glorified shadowing observorships like most IMGs do for USCE, right?

If so, in theory, he could probably get true USCE as a scrub tech assisting surgeries in the US. Alternatively, he might be able to get a position in a lab doing clinical research working with patients, e.g. on recruitment. Do you have a sense of which of those would be more likely to tip the scales in his favor, or if either would?

My concern about the scrub tech option is that, to my limited understanding, he would only be with patients while they're unconscious and being operated on, so there wouldn't be much opportunity for cultural exchanges, or whatever else this criterion is supposed to give him. Also, he'll probably be applying to IM, not surgery. I have no idea if PDs would share these concerns.

The research assistant recruiting patients into RCTs could give him more patient interaction time in reality, but I'm concerned that on paper that won't look to a PD like true USCE. Again, I'm just speculating based on no experience at all with the residency selection process, so please tell me if you think differently. I understand that either way, it would be ideal for him to get US lab-based research experience in too.

I guess another option could be that he could probably get a job as an MA or something like that. I'm not sure if MAs require special licensing or training, but he's definitely over-qualified to be an MA from an objective standpoint. That would be patient-facing in the clinic.

Thoughts?

 

[Animalcules]

@Animalcules, thank you. That's helpful. Most likely, we'll go with the 3 months of CE in India since that doesn't require me to defer a year, and it sounds like it probably doesn't really matter either way. And that way, at least no one can say he hasn't treated patients as a physician recently.

By "true USCE," you mean actually treating patients in the US, as opposed to just doing glorified shadowing observorships like most IMGs do for USCE, right?

If so, in theory, he could probably get true USCE as a scrub tech assisting surgeries in the US. Alternatively, he might be able to get a position in a lab doing clinical research working with patients, e.g. on recruitment. Do you have a sense of which of those would be more likely to tip the scales in his favor, or if either would?

My concern about the scrub tech option is that, to my limited understanding, he would only be with patients while they're unconscious and being operated on, so there wouldn't be much opportunity for cultural exchanges, or whatever else this criterion is supposed to give him. Also, he'll probably be applying to IM, not surgery. I have no idea if PDs would share these concerns.

The research assistant recruiting patients into RCTs could give him more patient interaction time in reality, but I'm concerned that on paper that won't look to a PD like true USCE. Again, I'm just speculating based on no experience at all with the residency selection process, so please tell me if you think differently. I understand that either way, it would be ideal for him to get US lab-based research experience in too.

I guess another option could be that he could probably get a job as an MA or something like that. I'm not sure if MAs require special licensing or training, but he's definitely over-qualified to be an MA from an objective standpoint. That would be patient-facing in the clinic.

Thoughts?

Neither the scrub tech or research assistant position will help him demonstrate that he is able to take care of patients in a US healthcare setting. These won't tip the scales at all. I consider it a waste of time unless he considers doing any of these positions long term in the US.

A lot of physicians that are fully trained abroad work as research techs, researchers, etc in the US. It is the harsh reality.

He can go through nursing school or other things, but in any cases, I do not see how there would be no additional training required, as silly as this sounds.

I think you then do your 3 months in India, apply once, and get a sense what the reality is. I assume you will want to live close to one another, so this limits his matching circle so dramatically that I think it will become irrelevant what he does. You just can't overcome the odds.

 

[scienceguy95]

Applying this upcoming cycle! Aiming for a top 20 academic program. Realistic?

Med school: Top 20-25
USMLE Step 1: 25X
USMLE Step 2 CK: Not taken yet (assuming 25X-26X based on current performance)
AOA: School doesn't have it
Clinical Grades: P/F due to COVID (all P)
LORs: Expecting them to be strong
Dean's Letter: Expecting it to be strong (uses M3 rotation and subI evaluations)
Research: Strong? Several clinical/basic experiences, 1 pub in top tier journal (Nature/Cell/Science), 1 pub in medium tier journal, 3-4 abstracts (first/second author), 1-2 abstract/papers under review
ECs: Above average? Involvement in multiple school committees, some free clinic volunteering
Red flags: None

 

[Internist_Sandman]

Applying this upcoming cycle! Aiming for a top 20 academic program. Realistic?

Med school: Top 20-25
USMLE Step 1: 25X
USMLE Step 2 CK: Not taken yet (assuming 25X-26X based on current performance)
AOA: School doesn't have it
Clinical Grades: P/F due to COVID (all P)
LORs: Expecting them to be strong
Dean's Letter: Expecting it to be strong (uses M3 rotation and subI evaluations)
Research: Strong? Several clinical/basic experiences, 1 pub in top tier journal (Nature/Cell/Science), 1 pub in medium tier journal, 3-4 abstracts (first/second author), 1-2 abstract/papers under review
ECs: Above average? Involvement in multiple school committees, some free clinic volunteering
Red flags: None

Yes, realistic. Shoot for the stars. But also know that any top 50 IM program is going to give you awesome training and mentorship. The big difference starts at the top 10-15.